A proposition to consider.

Aldaron

geriatric
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ANY POSTS THAT DISREGARD THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER MAY BE INFRACTED.

~~~
First, the disclaimer: I know Smogon's philosophy and purpose as a competitive Pokemon battling site and resource. Please do not lecture me about that. I also know aside from the CaP server, Smogon generally doesn't support modded servers. I'd like to emphasize that the following opinions are not necessarily the opinions of the Smogon staff or community. They are my opinions, presented to you by me, not anyone else. The reason I feel this topic is necessary is because I know I am not the only good player who complains about probability in Pokemon. This has become such a pervading issue within the Pokemon community, especially within the circle of the "good players," that I feel a topic regarding it is necessary.
~~~

An almost mind numbingly common trend that occurs with all players once they reach a certain level of skill is the desire (almost the necessity) to complain about the phenomenon referred to as "hax."

Most individuals who don't play the game (not naming names here) generally refer to this as childish whining, since "hax" is an "immature" reference to the laws of probability, and well, "if you have a problem with it play a different game, like chess."

However, I play Pokemon for the team building aspect. I don't know many other games that offer such a huge array of options to form a strategy. That's why I currently believe comparisons to games like Chess and Poker to be so shortsighted and almost completely irrelevant (just to be be clear, I was once one of those individuals who made the Chess reference or the Poker analogy).

In Chess your "team" is always the same, so preparing a strategy is solely dependent while playing, essentially "in battle." In Poker your "team" is entirely dependent on the laws of probability, and the game itself has a significantly higher emphasis on dealing with the other player himself as opposed to his "team" (bluffing). Pokemon has two aspects of strategy: the preparation and the battle. Chess and Poker both only have one aspect, the "battle." There is no or laughably little strategy in the preparation for either.

You could go so far as saying that being good at Pokemon really involves two skills: preparation skill (team building) and performance skill (battling).

Now here is my question for you: If one factor is so massive and appealing (preparation), should the other factor not attempt to be as appealing?

I guess I need to define "appealing" before continuing.

I am referring to "appealing" from the competitive gamer's perspective, meaning an "appealing" game is one that maximizes the effect of the gamer's influence on the game, and reduces, as much as feasibly possible, the impact of probability. The preparation aspect of Pokemon, therefore, is significantly appealing because the gamer chooses his strategy, and has complete control over changing his strategy (unlike Chess, where it is set, or Poker, where the gamer has no control).

This is why I am opening up discussion for a potential modded server on ShoddyBattle, one that seeks to increase the appeal of the battling aspect by reducing probability. Note that I generally tend to frown on most modded servers, as they generally have arbitrary goals and are just created to give the player a "break" from the standard game. What I am theorizing here is a metagame that appeals to the most competitive Pokemon player, and gives him a viable alternative to the standard metagame, not merely a break from it.

Note also I am making ABSOLUTELY NO assertions here that ANY of this should EVER even SLIGHTLY be considered for the standard game. Therefore, there is no point in cluttering this topic with stuff like "but I like blah blah blah." Great, you have the standard metagame, don't comment here. I'm not looking to change your standard metagame. I am looking at this as a side project, so please take your hate elsewhere ^_^ This is solely for the gamers among us who love the team building Pokemon offers us, but despise the high influence probability has on the outcome of many battles.

I'd like to emphasize that since I am looking simply to reduce probability's influence and not remove it altogether, most changes will be admittedly arbitrary. That's really fine for me, as these admittedly arbitrary changes exist simply to achieve our non-arbitrary goal: reducing the effect of probability.

So how would we reduce probability in the metagame? How would we make battling most "appealing," without significantly altering the game (as in, removing all non 100% accurate moves, removing all secondary effects, etc. etc.)?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here, I'll list out various factors that use probability, and give my suggestion for "fixing the issue." Note these are simply my suggestions, and the purpose of the topic is to discuss the issues and my suggestions:

1.) Critical Hits - Probably the most complained about issue. This is easy to fix, at least for me. You remove critical hits from all normal moves, and leave them at the 12.5% chance they have for moves like Night Slash and Stone Edge, because this critical hit is "expected" (Super Luck and Focus Energy increase the CH chance of all moves to the typical value). Critical hits also have the special aspect of ignoring defense boosts and attack drops, so you could argue they are a viable tool against something like Cosmic Power Deoxys-S or Cosmic Power Clefable. Again, this issue is easily fixed. Give all moves their 6.25% chance of a CH back when they use the same move <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, as now the critical hit is again "expected."

2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - Another commonly complained about issue. Again an easy fix: remove these two asshole abilities. No further comment here lol.

3.) The damage range - I really think such a large range of damage is so pointless. Doing between 85 - 100% is really annoying. I would either always have it do average damage, or reduce the range, maybe like 90-95% or something. Obviously testing and discussion would allow us to come to a more acceptable (and again, admittedly arbitrary) range.

4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - The 100% accurate moves, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and the like have most likely infuriated you in the past due to a Burn on the Tyranitar you switched in on Heatran, a Paralysis on the Mismagius you switched in on Blissey, or a freeze on the Metagross you switched in on Cresselia. Is it really necessary for these moves to have their "special" effects? When building a team, do you actually consider their ability to Burn / Paralyze / Freeze the opponent on turn one? I don't think so. The same thing done for CHes can be done here too: If the move is used <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, it gets its chance back, as now you are "expecting" to inflict that status. For moves like Fire Blast, Thunder and Blizzard, I believe the status is somewhat "expected" and should therefore remain, but that's obviously arguable. Moves like Lava Plume are definitely expected to inflict the status, so I also feel they should remain.

This category is a good example of the inability to remove probability altogether in Pokemon; however, we can certainly work to reduce its overall influence in the game.

5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - Listen, I am a damned good competitive Pokemon player and I know all about the risk you take when you choose to use a move like Hypnosis or Focus Blast, or the risk you take when choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. Patronize me all you want about choosing to complain about this, but I'll venture to guess that most of the good players on this site will agree with me that missing with Focus Blast twice in a row on Tyranitar is "fucking bullshit," or missing with Fire Blast twice in a row on Celebi is "fucking bullshit." I initially had a much more controversial idea of increasing the accuracy of all the expected moves by some common percentage just to increase the "expected" factor, but I have a different idea now: if the expected move misses the first turn, it will always hit the second turn, or will have a significantly increased Accuracy. After the turn the move hits, Accuracy resets back to the original value.

6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - These aren't seen too often in the standard game and therefore have not caused significant controversy. I guess the issue with abilities these like would be whether or not the effect is "expected." If it is expected I would increase the chance of them activating. If it isn't expected, I'd like to know if removing them altogether is desired or reducing their probability of activating is desired.

7.) The effects of Confusion, Paralysis, Attraction and Flinching - I really have no idea how to do anything with this. All are based in probablity, but all are significant parts of the game. We could remove Flinching from stuff like Ice Fang and Fire Fang (comon, how often has that Ice Fang flinch from Gyarados on your Celebi pissed you off, or that Fire Fang flinch from Garchomp on Bronzong pissed you off?), but keep it on stuff like Waterfall (though this is seriously arguable, as I know I consider it to be bullshit everytime Waterfall flinches me). We could also change Paralysis to not fully paralyze anymore, as the drop in Speed is a significant enough status, and more geared towards strategy than probability. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do here.

8.) Hax items and their plethora of potential effects - Items like Brightpowder, Scope Lens, King's Rock and the like all serve to increase the effect of probability. My experience with most players tells me that they fall underneath two categories for these items: 1.) Indifferent 2.) Hate them a lot. I myself am pretty indifferent, since they have rarely affected the outcome of a battle, but to maintain consistency I would recommend banning them altogether.

9.) Speed ties - I'm surprised I forgot about this one, especially since I was complaining about losing a Speed-tie to Deoxys-S just the other day :P Anyway, Omegadonut described a solution that I and others like a lot, so here is his quote:

Omegadonut said:
Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Those were the ones that came immediately in my head when I thought about it, in order of significance to me. There may be others that I am forgetting, so please add those if you feel they are necessary.

To prevent this topic from going down the shithole, I am going to administer and guide the debate. Though I'm not a mod, big Blue Kirby, Maniaclyrasist, zerowing, Great Sage, and Iggybot are all good friends of mine, and I will ask them to rain fiery hell on you should you decide to hijack this topic with an off topic post or irrelevant statement ^_^

The first order of business is listing out what all the issues are. I have 7 outlined, but again, I might have missed some factors, so before thinking about commenting please think about what other issues exist.

Next order of business is decided which are and which aren't issues, so kindly list whatever factors you feel reduce the battling aspect's "appeal."

Third order of business is determining what to actually do about these issues, but I don't want to get into that right now, as I'd like to firmly iron out the first two before getting into that.

I also think that to prevent a lot of potential digression in this topic that when debate on the issues themselves is opened, I should only allow discussion of one at a time. So please continually check back to this first post to see what order of business / issue is currently open for discussion. I will edit the thread's focus here as often as necessary, to help keep you up to date with progress.

Currently discussing: Any potential addition of issues, and which issues deserved to be discussed and why. So please, in your posts explicitly state any additional issues, and explicitly state which issues you feel are actually issues and issues are not. Also, the damage range issue seems to be causing the most polarity right now, so I'd like all posters who read this to give their thoughts on that subject. is the 85 - 100% range too much? If so, how would you "fix" it?

(I feel all 7 need to be discussed, btw)
 

Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I just thought of another issue: Serene Grace to #6. However, that's not what I'm here to discuss primarily (although I do outline my thoughts below).

Hax items are another pressing issue that should be discussed.
While some players may see them as "high risk, high reward", they can activate at inopportune moments and give an unskilled player a decided advantage over a more skilled opponent.
What's more, they encompass all of the categories Aldaron mentioned: Scope Lens, Brightpowder, King's Rock, even Quick Claw.

Below is a log between myself and a new player in a BL match that exhibits this principal perfectly. It also shows how gamebreaking a critical hit can be even though it doesn't score a OHKO, and that otherwise, Ambipom should not have been able to beat Raikou. Nicknames were edited.
AoK switched in EL TIGRE MACHA (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Raikou used Calm Mind.
Raikou's special attack was raised.
Raikou's special defence was raised.
Ambipom used Shadow Claw.
A critical hit!
Raikou lost 50% of its health.
---
Raikou used Thunderbolt.
Ambipom lost 102% of its health.
Ambipom hung on using its Focus Band!
Ambipom used Shadow Claw.
Raikou lost 24% of its health.
---
Raikou used Thunderbolt.
Ambipom lost 107% of its health.
Ambipom hung on using its Focus Band!
Ambipom used U-turn.
Raikou lost 28% of its health.
AoK's Raikou fainted.
I proceeded to lose the match 0-1 because of this, and many other instances of hax activating during the match (I was lucky to lose that closely, though...it was absolutely crazy). The player was clearly amateur because he ran stuff like Brightpowder Astonish/Metronome Regice (the former move succeeded in killing Shedinja, my switch-in to Regice, and I realized it was carrying Brightpowder due to the fact that Blaziken's Brick Break proceeded to miss) and Rain Dance/Synthesis/SD/Thunderpunch Ludicolo. Said Ludicolo ended the match against my Altaria while Draco Meteor's PP ran out (low PP being another issue, possibly?) and Thunderpunch paralyzed it and rendering it unable to try and stall Ludicolo out with Roost rendering Thunderpunch NVE (Altaria was faster).

As for issues I feel should be discussed, priorities include #2, whose users include the likes of Garchomp and Mamoswine, and missing against either can make or break the game. There was a recent warstory in which Snow Cloak kept activating and was partly responsible for changing the game results. #1 is obviously another priority, which has affected important matches ever since the days of RBY, #3 for its uncertainty that can certainly affect whether X can be a good counter to Y after Leftovers recovery (I gave one of the better examples seen often), and #5, which also causes a lot more than an inconvenience.

I don't find #6 to be much of an issue, as the Pokemon who carry them are generally fragile. However, an increased chance of Poison Point would increase Nidoqueen's walling abilities in UU. That is, excluding Serene Grace. If Serene Grace fell under this category, especially for undeniably game-breaking Pokemon like Jirachi, Blissey, and Togekiss, I would opt for reducing the chance of side effect activation. Instead of doubling the chance of a side-effect happening, Serene Grace should only increase them by 50%. I think it is a fair number. Part of #7, the issue of paralysis, I also agree with: it would make Pokemon like Ursaring and Granbull more viable, while at the same time being balanced enough to inflict a status and render faster sweepers not useless, but crippled. I am neutral to #4, because these side effects from these general sweeping moves happens so rarely that I consider them a non-factor (although I described an incident above when it really screwed me over), and even when they do hit, they never affected the game that much. After all, they're sweeping moves that you use to kill the enemy. You don't randomly spray them against walls and hope for status.
 

Aldaron

geriatric
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
The "hax item" is certainly an issue, one that I forgot about. However, my opinion is not what I am looking for here; can you please edit your post to mention it as a potential issue, and then go through the issues and tell me which ones you feel are necessary to discuss?

I am currently looking for people to add anything they feel could be an issue and tell me what they want to discuss; I'm not looking for my opinion on any particular issues.
 

Caelum

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I don't usually complain about "hax" since it's part of the game and it's really my own fault since I chose to use Focus Blast over HP Fighting. That said, this is a concept I had once considered so I'll comment on it. You wouldn't really be playing Pokemon though. Removing all the "luck" from Pokemon would considerably change the risk-reward aspect of the game.

~~~


So how would we reduce probability in the metagame? How would we make battling most "appealing," without significantly altering the game (as in, removing all non 100% accurate moves, removing all secondary effects, etc. etc.)?

That's actually altering it quite significantly. I don't think many people emphasize how much the game would change if we didn't have critical hits, misses, secondary effects etc.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here, I'll list out various factors that use probability, and give my suggestion for "fixing the issue." Note these are simply my suggestions, and the purpose of the topic is to discuss the issues and my suggestions:

1.) Critical Hits - Probably the most complained about issue. This is easy to fix, at least for me. You remove critical hits from all normal moves, and leave them at the 12.5% chance they have for moves like Night Slash and Stone Edge, because this critical hit is "expected" (Super Luck and Focus Energy increase the CH chance of all moves to the typical value). Critical hits also have the special aspect of ignoring defense boosts and attack drops, so you could argue they are a viable tool against something like Cosmic Power Deoxys-S or Cosmic Power Clefable. Again, this issue is easily fixed. Give all moves their 6.25% chance of a CH back when they use the same move <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, as now the critical hit is again "expected."

It's not a bad idea, but it's a bit complicated.

2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - Another commonly complained about issue. Again an easy fix: remove these two asshole abilities. No further comment here lol.

And replace them with what? The problem with removing an ability is the decision to what we replace them with. Do we give them no ability or just pick one?

3.) The damage range - I really think such a large range of damage is so pointless. Doing between 85 - 100% is really annoying. I would either always have it do average damage, or reduce the range, maybe like 90-95% or something. Obviously testing and discussion would allow us to come to a more acceptable (and again, admittedly arbitrary) range.

Yes, it's quite annoying. I sometimes get pissed when my move does 54% damage and then next turn does 45% or something like that. And on the note of "arbitrary" this whole process would be arbitrary designed to make the game hopefully more enjoyable.

4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - The 100% accurate moves, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and the like have most likely infuriated you in the past due to a Burn on the Tyranitar you switched in on Heatran, a Paralysis on the Mismagius you switched in on Blissey, or a freeze on the Metagross you switched in on Cresselia. Is it really necessary for these moves to have their "special" effects? When building a team, do you actually consider their ability to Burn / Paralyze / Freeze the opponent on turn one? I don't think so. The same thing done for CHes can be done here too: If the move is used <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, it gets its chance back, as now you are "expecting" to inflict that status. For moves like Fire Blast, Thunder and Blizzard, I believe the status is somewhat "expected" and should therefore remain, but that's obviously arguable. Moves like Lava Plume are definitely expected to inflict the status, so I also feel they should remain.

I understand what you mean by expected and not expected but the problem is actually coming up with a decent definition for this. Does this include flinching as well? For example, Yanmega can flinch me with Air Slash but is it as "expected" as when Togekiss flinches me using Air Slash? A number would have to be chosen to decide which secondary effects are expected.

This category is a good example of the inability to remove probability altogether in Pokemon; however, we can certainly work to reduce its overall influence in the game.

5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - Listen, I am a damned good competitive Pokemon player and I know all about the risk you take when you choose to use a move like Hypnosis or Focus Blast, or the risk you take when choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. Patronize me all you want about choosing to complain about this, but I'll venture to guess that most of the good players on this site will agree with me that missing with Focus Blast twice in a row on Tyranitar is "fucking bullshit," or missing with Fire Blast twice in a row on Celebi is "fucking bullshit." I initially had a much more controversial idea of increasing the accuracy of all the expected moves by some common percentage just to increase the "expected" factor, but I have a different idea now: if the expected move misses the first turn, it will always hit the second turn, or will have a significantly increased Accuracy. After the turn the move hits, Accuracy resets back to the original value.

I've never much complained about this. I only get pissed when say Ice Beam misses on Garchomp because Ice Beam 100% accurate move. I use Fire Blast > Flamethrower and Focus Blast > HP Fighting but it's always my fault if I choose to use the less accurate move. By removing this you take away the concept of Risk-Reward in deciding what moves to pick. It would be interesting to have a metagame where this is possible. The main problem I have is moves like Zap Cannon and Dynamicpunch. Those would become viable moves since they would hit every other turn guaranteed.

6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - These aren't seen too often in the standard game and therefore have not caused significant controversy. I guess the issue with abilities these like would be whether or not the effect is "expected." If it is expected I would increase the chance of them activating. If it isn't expected, I'd like to know if removing them altogether is desired or reducing their probability of activating is desired.

I've never had an issue with Cute Charm (probably because I set my Pokemon's genders to Female to avoid Attract / Captivate) so I can't really comment on that. But once again the biggest problem with this is, what do you replace these abilities with?


7.) The effects of Confusion, Paralysis, Attraction and Flinching - I really have no idea how to do anything with this. All are based in probablity, but all are significant parts of the game. We could remove Flinching from stuff like Ice Fang and Fire Fang (comon, how often has that Ice Fang flinch from Gyarados on your Celebi pissed you off, or that Fire Fang flinch from Garchomp on Bronzong pissed you off?), but keep it on stuff like Waterfall (though this is seriously arguable, as I know I consider it to be bullshit everytime Waterfall flinches me). We could also change Paralysis to not fully paralyze anymore, as the drop in Speed is a significant enough status, and more geared towards strategy than probability. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do here.

I have a paralysis team and I use it because I'm trying to set up a slow sweeper not because I want to hax them to death but usually the ladder occurs. I've actually thought about paralysis not causing full paralysis at all. And yes the Ice Fang flinch on Celebi does piss me off.
I'm personally not a fan of modifying a game when a simulation is the goal but I must admit this would be a very interesting modified server to play on. All of them are worth discussing I think (abilities like Static and Flame Body might be included with Cute Charm / Poison Heal as well). The one I think most worth discussing is critical hits / damage ranges (they fall in the same category to me). Damage ranges to me are quite annoying as there are times when I see a move doing a certain damage X and it should 2HKO but then the damage next turn is quite less. I'd just prefer for the damage to be one number every time as I think this would make the game more consistent. I like Pokemon but I've always felt this was a poorly designed game. The game lacks many elements of consistency such as damage variation, critical hits, and 100% accurate moves missing due to Veil/Cloak or Bright Powder. It would be interesting to see a modified metagame where more consistency was introduced.
 
Since you desire to keep total control over this debate, this post will be a criticism of the idea that these are issues and your plan to correct them. If potential addition of ideas is discussable, then surely potential subtraction of issues should be as well.

People tend to be against significantly altering the mechanics of a Pokemon simulator. Anyway, there's nothing "fucking bullshit" about missing twice in a row with a move like Focus Blast with its lovely 70% accuracy. It's the risk you take in using a move with a 70% accuracy, and there's nothing really improbable or "hax" about missing twice in a row. You're throwing the word "expected" around a whole bunch, but I'd venture to say that your problem is that the problem is with your expectations rather than the game if you really think there needs to be a RULE against Hypnosis missing twice in a row. There's balance issues, too - there's a definite if complicated balance between a move's power, accuracy, effects, and PP, and if you screw with accuracy or effects, you destroy that balance.

Besides, doing things according to "expectations" is totally arbitrary. The moment you (for example) take status off one move because you don't think it's "expected" but leave it on another move which has the same chance of applying the same status because you think it's "expected" there (Flamethrower and Fire Blast, for instance, have the same chance to burn on hit), you should realize that any hope of doing things in an orderly and balanced fashion has completely collapsed. As long as you base the entire debate on "expectations" alone, it's doomed to fail - you need hard rules to invent a new metagame, not wishy-washy guidelines or opinions.

Critical hits are an issue that draws discussion time and time again and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, and Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are worth discussing as well considering how popular Evasion Clause is, but the rest of your issues, I think, are crippled by the fundamental flaws I outlined above.
 

Caelum

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Besides, doing things according to "expectations" is totally arbitrary. The moment you (for example) take status off one move because you don't think it's "expected" but leave it on another move which has the same chance of applying the same status because you think it's "expected" there (Flamethrower and Fire Blast, for instance, have the same chance to burn on hit), you should realize that any hope of doing things in an orderly and balanced fashion has completely collapsed. As long as you base the entire debate on "expectations" alone, it's doomed to fail - you need hard rules to invent a new metagame, not wishy-washy guidelines or opinions.
I don't think Aldaron ever suggested this wasn't arbitrary. Listen, most of us know what Aldaron is describing. This isn't science or mathematics where we need to define something rigorously, this is just Pokemon. I understand where you are coming from but I believe most competitive players would say they expect Lava Plume to burn there Gyarados switch into Heatran, but not Fire Blast. It's something that is when you see it, you know it. Is this rigorous? Of course not, but most competitive players understand intuitively what Aldaron means by expected.
 
Ugh, this is what so many of us "competitive battlers" want but I really don't think it can happen to this much extent Aldaron. You've written a very well thought out proposition, but I really think some things can't be done.

But, I really agree with you on Critical hits, what an excellent idea! Also what you talked about having some moves miss when they were "expected" to hit. (Like Toxic, or Sleep Powder missing twice in a row is DEFINITELY "fucking bullshit" It seriously seems like that 2.25% chance of Toxic missing twice in a row happends alot more than it should. Same with Hypnosis). But making all moves 100% accuracy is just stupid, as it ruins some moves purpose (like fireblast and flamethrower).

I don't tihnk the damage range should be tampered with, christ, is that truely even a problem? Yes it might do 46% one turn then 55% then next turn, isn't that "expected"?

Sandviel and Snow Cloak is indeed "fucking bullshit". What an asshole ability lol (omg that made me laugh pretty hard Aldaron hehe)

But in the end I dont think this well ever happen...

"make your own server"
hahahahaa
 
How would you change the effect of speed ties, or do you in fact wish to leave them alone. Speed ties are possibly the most dangerous situations in the game. For example: if you have a max speed Aerodactyl against your enemy's max speed Jolteon, you will have the option of hoping that you win the speed tie and Earthquake him before he Thunderbolts you, and switching. If you switch, you run the risk of letting him set up a substitute. I know the your decision in this situation will probably be affected by the knowledge you have gained about your opponent throughout the battle, but for the sake of argument, lets ignore that.

Speed ties are situations where your prediction and knowledge of your opponent can allow you an easy win, but they can also be situations where it comes down to luck (+2 Garchomp Vs. Garchomp).
 
1.) Critical Hits - Probably the most complained about issue. This is easy to fix, at least for me. You remove critical hits from all normal moves, and leave them at the 12.5% chance they have for moves like Night Slash and Stone Edge, because this critical hit is "expected" (Super Luck and Focus Energy increase the CH chance of all moves to the typical value). Critical hits also have the special aspect of ignoring defense boosts and attack drops, so you could argue they are a viable tool against something like Cosmic Power Deoxys-S or Cosmic Power Clefable. Again, this issue is easily fixed. Give all moves their 6.25% chance of a CH back when they use the same move <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, as now the critical hit is again "expected."

2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - Another commonly complained about issue. Again an easy fix: remove these two asshole abilities. No further comment here lol.

3.) The damage range - I really think such a large range of damage is so pointless. Doing between 85 - 100% is really annoying. I would either always have it do average damage, or reduce the range, maybe like 90-95% or something. Obviously testing and discussion would allow us to come to a more acceptable (and again, admittedly arbitrary) range.

4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - The 100% accurate moves, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and the like have most likely infuriated you in the past due to a Burn on the Tyranitar you switched in on Heatran, a Paralysis on the Mismagius you switched in on Blissey, or a freeze on the Metagross you switched in on Cresselia. Is it really necessary for these moves to have their "special" effects? When building a team, do you actually consider their ability to Burn / Paralyze / Freeze the opponent on turn one? I don't think so. The same thing done for CHes can be done here too: If the move is used <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, it gets its chance back, as now you are "expecting" to inflict that status. For moves like Fire Blast, Thunder and Blizzard, I believe the status is somewhat "expected" and should therefore remain, but that's obviously arguable. Moves like Lava Plume are definitely expected to inflict the status, so I also feel they should remain.

This category is a good example of the inability to remove probability altogether in Pokemon; however, we can certainly work to reduce its overall influence in the game.

5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - Listen, I am a damned good competitive Pokemon player and I know all about the risk you take when you choose to use a move like Hypnosis or Focus Blast, or the risk you take when choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. Patronize me all you want about choosing to complain about this, but I'll venture to guess that most of the good players on this site will agree with me that missing with Focus Blast twice in a row on Tyranitar is "fucking bullshit," or missing with Fire Blast twice in a row on Celebi is "fucking bullshit." I initially had a much more controversial idea of increasing the accuracy of all the expected moves by some common percentage just to increase the "expected" factor, but I have a different idea now: if the expected move misses the first turn, it will always hit the second turn, or will have a significantly increased Accuracy. After the turn the move hits, Accuracy resets back to the original value.

6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - These aren't seen too often in the standard game and therefore have not caused significant controversy. I guess the issue with abilities these like would be whether or not the effect is "expected." If it is expected I would increase the chance of them activating. If it isn't expected, I'd like to know if removing them altogether is desired or reducing their probability of activating is desired.

7.) The effects of Confusion, Paralysis, Attraction and Flinching - I really have no idea how to do anything with this. All are based in probablity, but all are significant parts of the game. We could remove Flinching from stuff like Ice Fang and Fire Fang (comon, how often has that Ice Fang flinch from Gyarados on your Celebi pissed you off, or that Fire Fang flinch from Garchomp on Bronzong pissed you off?), but keep it on stuff like Waterfall (though this is seriously arguable, as I know I consider it to be bullshit everytime Waterfall flinches me). We could also change Paralysis to not fully paralyze anymore, as the drop in Speed is a significant enough status, and more geared towards strategy than probability. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do here.
1. Crits - So about the increase of a crit rate everytime they use a certain move in a row, what if it's a Calm Mind Clefable who decides to shuffle Cosmic Power and Softboiled? It would still be problematic because the increasing crit rate will be reseted every time... or did I miss something here?

2. I agree, although pokemon like Froslass who rely on it with paralysis support would lose an effective strategy. I'm not sure I like that.

3. Damage Range - I think it's perfectly fine right now. I don't see how doing 85-100 is "annoying".. it only makes the gaming tougher when you need to decide if you wanna invest a few more EVs to ensure a kill. I think it makes the game more interesting.

4. Fire Blast and Blizzard are different from Thunder, only having 10% chance to cause a burn / freeze. Personally I really hate that stuff, a random freeze can pretty much ruin an entire game. Don't forget pokemon with Serene Grace, like Togekiss who still won't mind the 20% burn rate from Flamethrower, although I'm not sure people actually consider Flamethrower for that. But regardless, I'm in favor of removing the secondary effects from every move with a 10% chance. 20% and above leans more towards "strategy" than "hax" imo.

5. Hypnosis missing 3 times in a row is a real bitch. I wouldn't mind having it increased by 15% or 20% each turn after it misses, seems more fair to me. It's even more frustrating when you think of it as "oh great, if I used Sheer Cold 3 times now in a row, I would hit all 3".

6. Don't forget abilities like Static who are even more important in a game that revolves so much about speed. I believe these should be left alone, as 30% is already a respectable chance. Don't forget the enemy can avoid this by not using a contact move. It could also be cleverly used by the opponent to switch into a contant move without any risk to cause a poisoning / paralysis.

7. That is the most problematic issue imo, because it can be used as a perfectly viable strategy by numerous pokes (ParaFusion IE). As for paralysis, I suggest making it somewhat like the Hypnosis missing thing, only the opposite - if you can't move from a paralysis the 1st turn, the paralysis chance should decrease the 2nd turn, reseted everytime you're fully paralysed.

Good post.
 
2 quick things I think should be clarified:

Stat increase/decrease moves - would moves like Shadow Ball, Psychic, Energy Ball etc.. be treated in the same way as 10% status inducing moves?

Serene Grace - If a serene grace user, Blissey for example, uses Flamethrower, would the same rule apply?
 
As part of the issues with certain abilities, I would include the potential of giving the pokemon new abilities to replace the ones you are taking away. It should at least be discussed, because certain pokes don't have any other abilities, so should you take Snow Cloak or Sand Veil away, it might be a good idea to discuss what should potentially replace those, or if they should be replaced at all.
 
lol @ this thread. Just to make some serious comments, in theory, you shouldn´t be able to calculate the dmg done by your poke. In wi-fi or in gameboy numbers doesn´t actually appear, the only thing you can "calculate" is the damage you receive (because you can actually see your own hp) so trying to know everything to me is retarded. Besides, Shoddy gives you only integers, some moves will cause X,5% dmg like SR or spikes so even if you "know" a certain move will cause the other poke the % needed to ko it can remain with 0-1% due to that decimal it isn´t showing
 

ΩDonut

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This is what I'd like to do about speed ties.

Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.
 
This is what I'd like to do about speed ties.

Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.
That would be perfect.
 

TAY

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As moves have their abilities/accuracy reduced and increased, will there be an adjustment to base power as well? If Stone Edge moves up to 100% accuracy, I think it should lose its high critical hit rate; especially in an environment where critical hits are horribly difficult to pull off this move seems a bit overpowered.

What will happen to non-Machamp, non-Gravity Dynamicpunch/Zap Canon? I know these aren't horribly popular choices anyway, but I have lost to a series of non-Machamp Dynamicpunches and let me tell you: it sucks.

Serene Grace should have the exact same effect it does now (e.g. Zen Headbutt has 60% chance to flinch, flamethrower has 20% chance to burn). You mention intent a lot in the OP, and using Serene Grace - Even on Jirachi imo - demonstrates purposefully going for a low-probability event.

I'm assuming hax items (quick claw, focus band) will be outright banned.
 
Serene Grace abusers typically have moves with a high percent of effects, so these would fall under the "expected". Abilities such as Poison Point, Static, and Cute Charm should all be expected as well, so I see no point in getting rid of them.

I think OmegaDonut's idea would work quite well.

As for the critical hits, I hate it when I get critical hit, but how will we deal with stat boosts? What happens when you accidentally allow Suicune 2 Calm Minds too many? Sometimes, you can get lucky and critical hit them for the kill, stopping a sweep. Suicune is not hard to set up, so it isn't like I am just that bad. Could we increase the critical hit ratio when the opponent has stat boosts, much like Punishment's increase in power? Of course, it would have to be the same attacking stat as the opponent's boosts, but it could work.

I think Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower should have their effect percentage reduced. It is extremely annoying when you switch into Cresselia with Suicune or maybe Heatran, only to be frozen for 10 turns. This has happened far too often, and I think moves with 10% should just have 0% chance of effects.

I think the damage range is perfectly fine. It may seem "too large" but when you think about it it makes since. Let's say it would do 30-33% if it was neutral, but if it was super effective it would do 60-66%, so of course this area will increase. A SD boost will give you the same results, and is essentially hitting the opposite pokemon for SE as long as the move is neutral.

Other than that this sounds like a great idea, and I would love to play on a server like that.
 

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Interesting topic.

The thing is that appeal in team building essentially says that "The better team must always win", is a similar attitude in Poker where "The better hand always win". Of course, unlike Poker, there is much thought to be put into each team - and executing strategies.

I believe that luck is something gamefreak put into the game simply to increase the variety within the battle. Without luck, matches are essentially over the second the battle starts - much like in Chess where people know the "best moves" based on the situations and, without a luck factor, people put in a lot of thought into the moves and try to predict what the opponent to do. In this sense, the only "luck factor" in chess is your opponent - which isn't really "luck" at all.

EDIT: This statement is based on the assumption that both players are equally skilled - nearly all my statements I ever make assume both players are "experts" at the game.

Hence, we see that gamefreak wanted the game to be a more instinctive, much like the bullshit they advertise in the anime - this is done through luck, where the best planned strategy does not always win, and there is always this factor. Don't say people don't play by instinct - because many good players are unable to explain clearly why they think certain things are "uber" or not - there is a huge factor of "instinct" within the game.

Hence the removal of luck essentially limits choices within the battling appeal of the game.

There is an easy solution to all of this - to increase the appeal of "team buliding" and battling at the same time. Much like one round in Poker does not decide the game, make each match best out of 3, with counterpicking with "sideboards". This is an idea that was suggested multiple times in the past through one way or another. By having more matches, the "better team builder" wins overall, and not only that, but increases the appeal of team building by offering greater variety through sideboards. It also adds to a level of mindgames that the battlers will want, and critical hits suddenly matter less unless you are unlucky enough to get haxed a few times in a row. But then, it's "Pokemon".

Hence, I believe multiple matches, best out of 3 or 5 or whatever, is the best thing to do rather than modify game mechanics. We modify our playing format, not the game itself. That is how the metagame is, no? We modify the format we play the game to be the most competitive.

I like OD's idea of speedtie though

EDIT: Alternatively, we can create a god and claim that he dictates the realm of competitive Pokemon, and blame it whenever we get haxed. And we can write epic poetry about the rise and fall of great Pokemon players because of the fickle mother of chaos during the great War known as the Smogon Tour. We can also exalt our admins to the position of half god half man so they have absolute authority over everything without petty questioning from us mortals because they are INFALLIBLE
 
This is what I'd like to do about speed ties.

Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.
That's just brilliant, and I agree on this, as it would be fair to both players.
 
I would like to propose a short and sweet method of reducing certain probabilities in the capacity desired by Aldaron, yet which is not blatantly arbitrary. Hopefully the shortness of my post in this wall of text threads will not discourage people from taking it seriously.

Before performing any action, perform it three times. In cases whether an effect may or may not occur (e.g. missing or critical hit) take the majority. By this, I mean that in order to miss an attack with 70% accuracy, you would need to miss 2 out of the 3 simulated attacks. In order to critical hit, you would need to critical hit twice out of the three simulated attacks. Etc. When it comes to calculating damage, calculate it by taking the average of all simulated damage. E.g. if you attacked with a move with 70% accuracy, and two of the three simulated attacks hit, then find damage by taking the average of these two damage values. Etc. It's a quite simple idea, it does not arbitrarily rewrite the rules of pokemon as, say, removing critical hits would (sure-fire path to lots of shouting) or removing some critical hits and not others (even more sure-fire path to even more shouting). It, in effect, non-arbitrarily increases the odds of an effect with >50% chance of occuring, and non-arbitrarily decreases the odds of an effect with < 50% chance of occuring.

The idea comes from a variant of hold-em meant to minimize luck under certain situations (primarily situations where there can be no more betting), in which all remaining cards are dealt three times, and the winner is he who who wins at least two out of the three dealt hands.

I understand that in some circumstances, namely those with a 50% chance of occuring, this has no effect (e.g. speed ties, moves with 50% accuracy, etc). Nothing's perfect, but this seems to me a hell of a lot better than anything else, which is sure to cause no end of bitching. Also, for the scenarios it does not cover, perhaps it can be combined with other ideas. I think specifically of omega's speed tie concept.
 
This is what I'd like to do about speed ties.

Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.
There are a couple moves that this might cause confusion for, like Sleep Talk, Crush Grip, and Endeavor.

The proposals are interesting, and its great to think about a less "haxy" game. Though, from amount of people that claimed they wanted shoddy to simulate the game as much as possible (from the restricted legend IVs poll), I'd wonder how people would react to this... I just learn to deal with the consequences of hax because it isn't terribly that it drastically affects the game and occasionally it will benefit you as well, so those kinda even each other out sort of

For paralysis you could have it where you can never be immobile for 2 turns in a row.
 
This is what I'd like to do about speed ties.

Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.
How would this work with Substitute?
 

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