Aldaron
geriatric
ANY POSTS THAT DISREGARD THE FOLLOWING DISCLAIMER MAY BE INFRACTED.
~~~
First, the disclaimer: I know Smogon's philosophy and purpose as a competitive Pokemon battling site and resource. Please do not lecture me about that. I also know aside from the CaP server, Smogon generally doesn't support modded servers. I'd like to emphasize that the following opinions are not necessarily the opinions of the Smogon staff or community. They are my opinions, presented to you by me, not anyone else. The reason I feel this topic is necessary is because I know I am not the only good player who complains about probability in Pokemon. This has become such a pervading issue within the Pokemon community, especially within the circle of the "good players," that I feel a topic regarding it is necessary.
~~~
An almost mind numbingly common trend that occurs with all players once they reach a certain level of skill is the desire (almost the necessity) to complain about the phenomenon referred to as "hax."
Most individuals who don't play the game (not naming names here) generally refer to this as childish whining, since "hax" is an "immature" reference to the laws of probability, and well, "if you have a problem with it play a different game, like chess."
However, I play Pokemon for the team building aspect. I don't know many other games that offer such a huge array of options to form a strategy. That's why I currently believe comparisons to games like Chess and Poker to be so shortsighted and almost completely irrelevant (just to be be clear, I was once one of those individuals who made the Chess reference or the Poker analogy).
In Chess your "team" is always the same, so preparing a strategy is solely dependent while playing, essentially "in battle." In Poker your "team" is entirely dependent on the laws of probability, and the game itself has a significantly higher emphasis on dealing with the other player himself as opposed to his "team" (bluffing). Pokemon has two aspects of strategy: the preparation and the battle. Chess and Poker both only have one aspect, the "battle." There is no or laughably little strategy in the preparation for either.
You could go so far as saying that being good at Pokemon really involves two skills: preparation skill (team building) and performance skill (battling).
Now here is my question for you: If one factor is so massive and appealing (preparation), should the other factor not attempt to be as appealing?
I guess I need to define "appealing" before continuing.
I am referring to "appealing" from the competitive gamer's perspective, meaning an "appealing" game is one that maximizes the effect of the gamer's influence on the game, and reduces, as much as feasibly possible, the impact of probability. The preparation aspect of Pokemon, therefore, is significantly appealing because the gamer chooses his strategy, and has complete control over changing his strategy (unlike Chess, where it is set, or Poker, where the gamer has no control).
This is why I am opening up discussion for a potential modded server on ShoddyBattle, one that seeks to increase the appeal of the battling aspect by reducing probability. Note that I generally tend to frown on most modded servers, as they generally have arbitrary goals and are just created to give the player a "break" from the standard game. What I am theorizing here is a metagame that appeals to the most competitive Pokemon player, and gives him a viable alternative to the standard metagame, not merely a break from it.
Note also I am making ABSOLUTELY NO assertions here that ANY of this should EVER even SLIGHTLY be considered for the standard game. Therefore, there is no point in cluttering this topic with stuff like "but I like blah blah blah." Great, you have the standard metagame, don't comment here. I'm not looking to change your standard metagame. I am looking at this as a side project, so please take your hate elsewhere ^_^ This is solely for the gamers among us who love the team building Pokemon offers us, but despise the high influence probability has on the outcome of many battles.
I'd like to emphasize that since I am looking simply to reduce probability's influence and not remove it altogether, most changes will be admittedly arbitrary. That's really fine for me, as these admittedly arbitrary changes exist simply to achieve our non-arbitrary goal: reducing the effect of probability.
So how would we reduce probability in the metagame? How would we make battling most "appealing," without significantly altering the game (as in, removing all non 100% accurate moves, removing all secondary effects, etc. etc.)?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here, I'll list out various factors that use probability, and give my suggestion for "fixing the issue." Note these are simply my suggestions, and the purpose of the topic is to discuss the issues and my suggestions:
1.) Critical Hits - Probably the most complained about issue. This is easy to fix, at least for me. You remove critical hits from all normal moves, and leave them at the 12.5% chance they have for moves like Night Slash and Stone Edge, because this critical hit is "expected" (Super Luck and Focus Energy increase the CH chance of all moves to the typical value). Critical hits also have the special aspect of ignoring defense boosts and attack drops, so you could argue they are a viable tool against something like Cosmic Power Deoxys-S or Cosmic Power Clefable. Again, this issue is easily fixed. Give all moves their 6.25% chance of a CH back when they use the same move <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, as now the critical hit is again "expected."
2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - Another commonly complained about issue. Again an easy fix: remove these two asshole abilities. No further comment here lol.
3.) The damage range - I really think such a large range of damage is so pointless. Doing between 85 - 100% is really annoying. I would either always have it do average damage, or reduce the range, maybe like 90-95% or something. Obviously testing and discussion would allow us to come to a more acceptable (and again, admittedly arbitrary) range.
4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - The 100% accurate moves, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and the like have most likely infuriated you in the past due to a Burn on the Tyranitar you switched in on Heatran, a Paralysis on the Mismagius you switched in on Blissey, or a freeze on the Metagross you switched in on Cresselia. Is it really necessary for these moves to have their "special" effects? When building a team, do you actually consider their ability to Burn / Paralyze / Freeze the opponent on turn one? I don't think so. The same thing done for CHes can be done here too: If the move is used <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, it gets its chance back, as now you are "expecting" to inflict that status. For moves like Fire Blast, Thunder and Blizzard, I believe the status is somewhat "expected" and should therefore remain, but that's obviously arguable. Moves like Lava Plume are definitely expected to inflict the status, so I also feel they should remain.
This category is a good example of the inability to remove probability altogether in Pokemon; however, we can certainly work to reduce its overall influence in the game.
5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - Listen, I am a damned good competitive Pokemon player and I know all about the risk you take when you choose to use a move like Hypnosis or Focus Blast, or the risk you take when choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. Patronize me all you want about choosing to complain about this, but I'll venture to guess that most of the good players on this site will agree with me that missing with Focus Blast twice in a row on Tyranitar is "fucking bullshit," or missing with Fire Blast twice in a row on Celebi is "fucking bullshit." I initially had a much more controversial idea of increasing the accuracy of all the expected moves by some common percentage just to increase the "expected" factor, but I have a different idea now: if the expected move misses the first turn, it will always hit the second turn, or will have a significantly increased Accuracy. After the turn the move hits, Accuracy resets back to the original value.
6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - These aren't seen too often in the standard game and therefore have not caused significant controversy. I guess the issue with abilities these like would be whether or not the effect is "expected." If it is expected I would increase the chance of them activating. If it isn't expected, I'd like to know if removing them altogether is desired or reducing their probability of activating is desired.
7.) The effects of Confusion, Paralysis, Attraction and Flinching - I really have no idea how to do anything with this. All are based in probablity, but all are significant parts of the game. We could remove Flinching from stuff like Ice Fang and Fire Fang (comon, how often has that Ice Fang flinch from Gyarados on your Celebi pissed you off, or that Fire Fang flinch from Garchomp on Bronzong pissed you off?), but keep it on stuff like Waterfall (though this is seriously arguable, as I know I consider it to be bullshit everytime Waterfall flinches me). We could also change Paralysis to not fully paralyze anymore, as the drop in Speed is a significant enough status, and more geared towards strategy than probability. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do here.
8.) Hax items and their plethora of potential effects - Items like Brightpowder, Scope Lens, King's Rock and the like all serve to increase the effect of probability. My experience with most players tells me that they fall underneath two categories for these items: 1.) Indifferent 2.) Hate them a lot. I myself am pretty indifferent, since they have rarely affected the outcome of a battle, but to maintain consistency I would recommend banning them altogether.
9.) Speed ties - I'm surprised I forgot about this one, especially since I was complaining about losing a Speed-tie to Deoxys-S just the other day :P Anyway, Omegadonut described a solution that I and others like a lot, so here is his quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Those were the ones that came immediately in my head when I thought about it, in order of significance to me. There may be others that I am forgetting, so please add those if you feel they are necessary.
To prevent this topic from going down the shithole, I am going to administer and guide the debate. Though I'm not a mod, big Blue Kirby, Maniaclyrasist, zerowing, Great Sage, and Iggybot are all good friends of mine, and I will ask them to rain fiery hell on you should you decide to hijack this topic with an off topic post or irrelevant statement ^_^
The first order of business is listing out what all the issues are. I have 7 outlined, but again, I might have missed some factors, so before thinking about commenting please think about what other issues exist.
Next order of business is decided which are and which aren't issues, so kindly list whatever factors you feel reduce the battling aspect's "appeal."
Third order of business is determining what to actually do about these issues, but I don't want to get into that right now, as I'd like to firmly iron out the first two before getting into that.
I also think that to prevent a lot of potential digression in this topic that when debate on the issues themselves is opened, I should only allow discussion of one at a time. So please continually check back to this first post to see what order of business / issue is currently open for discussion. I will edit the thread's focus here as often as necessary, to help keep you up to date with progress.
Currently discussing: Any potential addition of issues, and which issues deserved to be discussed and why. So please, in your posts explicitly state any additional issues, and explicitly state which issues you feel are actually issues and issues are not. Also, the damage range issue seems to be causing the most polarity right now, so I'd like all posters who read this to give their thoughts on that subject. is the 85 - 100% range too much? If so, how would you "fix" it?
(I feel all 7 need to be discussed, btw)
~~~
First, the disclaimer: I know Smogon's philosophy and purpose as a competitive Pokemon battling site and resource. Please do not lecture me about that. I also know aside from the CaP server, Smogon generally doesn't support modded servers. I'd like to emphasize that the following opinions are not necessarily the opinions of the Smogon staff or community. They are my opinions, presented to you by me, not anyone else. The reason I feel this topic is necessary is because I know I am not the only good player who complains about probability in Pokemon. This has become such a pervading issue within the Pokemon community, especially within the circle of the "good players," that I feel a topic regarding it is necessary.
~~~
An almost mind numbingly common trend that occurs with all players once they reach a certain level of skill is the desire (almost the necessity) to complain about the phenomenon referred to as "hax."
Most individuals who don't play the game (not naming names here) generally refer to this as childish whining, since "hax" is an "immature" reference to the laws of probability, and well, "if you have a problem with it play a different game, like chess."
However, I play Pokemon for the team building aspect. I don't know many other games that offer such a huge array of options to form a strategy. That's why I currently believe comparisons to games like Chess and Poker to be so shortsighted and almost completely irrelevant (just to be be clear, I was once one of those individuals who made the Chess reference or the Poker analogy).
In Chess your "team" is always the same, so preparing a strategy is solely dependent while playing, essentially "in battle." In Poker your "team" is entirely dependent on the laws of probability, and the game itself has a significantly higher emphasis on dealing with the other player himself as opposed to his "team" (bluffing). Pokemon has two aspects of strategy: the preparation and the battle. Chess and Poker both only have one aspect, the "battle." There is no or laughably little strategy in the preparation for either.
You could go so far as saying that being good at Pokemon really involves two skills: preparation skill (team building) and performance skill (battling).
Now here is my question for you: If one factor is so massive and appealing (preparation), should the other factor not attempt to be as appealing?
I guess I need to define "appealing" before continuing.
I am referring to "appealing" from the competitive gamer's perspective, meaning an "appealing" game is one that maximizes the effect of the gamer's influence on the game, and reduces, as much as feasibly possible, the impact of probability. The preparation aspect of Pokemon, therefore, is significantly appealing because the gamer chooses his strategy, and has complete control over changing his strategy (unlike Chess, where it is set, or Poker, where the gamer has no control).
This is why I am opening up discussion for a potential modded server on ShoddyBattle, one that seeks to increase the appeal of the battling aspect by reducing probability. Note that I generally tend to frown on most modded servers, as they generally have arbitrary goals and are just created to give the player a "break" from the standard game. What I am theorizing here is a metagame that appeals to the most competitive Pokemon player, and gives him a viable alternative to the standard metagame, not merely a break from it.
Note also I am making ABSOLUTELY NO assertions here that ANY of this should EVER even SLIGHTLY be considered for the standard game. Therefore, there is no point in cluttering this topic with stuff like "but I like blah blah blah." Great, you have the standard metagame, don't comment here. I'm not looking to change your standard metagame. I am looking at this as a side project, so please take your hate elsewhere ^_^ This is solely for the gamers among us who love the team building Pokemon offers us, but despise the high influence probability has on the outcome of many battles.
I'd like to emphasize that since I am looking simply to reduce probability's influence and not remove it altogether, most changes will be admittedly arbitrary. That's really fine for me, as these admittedly arbitrary changes exist simply to achieve our non-arbitrary goal: reducing the effect of probability.
So how would we reduce probability in the metagame? How would we make battling most "appealing," without significantly altering the game (as in, removing all non 100% accurate moves, removing all secondary effects, etc. etc.)?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here, I'll list out various factors that use probability, and give my suggestion for "fixing the issue." Note these are simply my suggestions, and the purpose of the topic is to discuss the issues and my suggestions:
1.) Critical Hits - Probably the most complained about issue. This is easy to fix, at least for me. You remove critical hits from all normal moves, and leave them at the 12.5% chance they have for moves like Night Slash and Stone Edge, because this critical hit is "expected" (Super Luck and Focus Energy increase the CH chance of all moves to the typical value). Critical hits also have the special aspect of ignoring defense boosts and attack drops, so you could argue they are a viable tool against something like Cosmic Power Deoxys-S or Cosmic Power Clefable. Again, this issue is easily fixed. Give all moves their 6.25% chance of a CH back when they use the same move <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, as now the critical hit is again "expected."
2.) Sand Veil / Snow Cloak causing a miss - Another commonly complained about issue. Again an easy fix: remove these two asshole abilities. No further comment here lol.
3.) The damage range - I really think such a large range of damage is so pointless. Doing between 85 - 100% is really annoying. I would either always have it do average damage, or reduce the range, maybe like 90-95% or something. Obviously testing and discussion would allow us to come to a more acceptable (and again, admittedly arbitrary) range.
4.) Status inflicted from moves not "expected" to inflict status - The 100% accurate moves, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and the like have most likely infuriated you in the past due to a Burn on the Tyranitar you switched in on Heatran, a Paralysis on the Mismagius you switched in on Blissey, or a freeze on the Metagross you switched in on Cresselia. Is it really necessary for these moves to have their "special" effects? When building a team, do you actually consider their ability to Burn / Paralyze / Freeze the opponent on turn one? I don't think so. The same thing done for CHes can be done here too: If the move is used <insert arbitrary number> times in a row, it gets its chance back, as now you are "expecting" to inflict that status. For moves like Fire Blast, Thunder and Blizzard, I believe the status is somewhat "expected" and should therefore remain, but that's obviously arguable. Moves like Lava Plume are definitely expected to inflict the status, so I also feel they should remain.
This category is a good example of the inability to remove probability altogether in Pokemon; however, we can certainly work to reduce its overall influence in the game.
5.) "Expected" moves missing, sometimes twice in a row - Listen, I am a damned good competitive Pokemon player and I know all about the risk you take when you choose to use a move like Hypnosis or Focus Blast, or the risk you take when choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. Patronize me all you want about choosing to complain about this, but I'll venture to guess that most of the good players on this site will agree with me that missing with Focus Blast twice in a row on Tyranitar is "fucking bullshit," or missing with Fire Blast twice in a row on Celebi is "fucking bullshit." I initially had a much more controversial idea of increasing the accuracy of all the expected moves by some common percentage just to increase the "expected" factor, but I have a different idea now: if the expected move misses the first turn, it will always hit the second turn, or will have a significantly increased Accuracy. After the turn the move hits, Accuracy resets back to the original value.
6.) Abilities like Poison Point or Cute Charm - These aren't seen too often in the standard game and therefore have not caused significant controversy. I guess the issue with abilities these like would be whether or not the effect is "expected." If it is expected I would increase the chance of them activating. If it isn't expected, I'd like to know if removing them altogether is desired or reducing their probability of activating is desired.
7.) The effects of Confusion, Paralysis, Attraction and Flinching - I really have no idea how to do anything with this. All are based in probablity, but all are significant parts of the game. We could remove Flinching from stuff like Ice Fang and Fire Fang (comon, how often has that Ice Fang flinch from Gyarados on your Celebi pissed you off, or that Fire Fang flinch from Garchomp on Bronzong pissed you off?), but keep it on stuff like Waterfall (though this is seriously arguable, as I know I consider it to be bullshit everytime Waterfall flinches me). We could also change Paralysis to not fully paralyze anymore, as the drop in Speed is a significant enough status, and more geared towards strategy than probability. Other than that I'm not really sure what to do here.
8.) Hax items and their plethora of potential effects - Items like Brightpowder, Scope Lens, King's Rock and the like all serve to increase the effect of probability. My experience with most players tells me that they fall underneath two categories for these items: 1.) Indifferent 2.) Hate them a lot. I myself am pretty indifferent, since they have rarely affected the outcome of a battle, but to maintain consistency I would recommend banning them altogether.
9.) Speed ties - I'm surprised I forgot about this one, especially since I was complaining about losing a Speed-tie to Deoxys-S just the other day :P Anyway, Omegadonut described a solution that I and others like a lot, so here is his quote:
Omegadonut said:Have both Pokemon execute their moves at the same time, and ignore the consequences of damage and side effects until the end of the turn. For example, let's say identical speed Gengar and Azelf are facing each other. Azelf Psychics and Gengar uses Hypnosis. Gengar gets KO'd by Psychic, but Hypnosis hits and Azelf is left sleeping at the end of the turn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Those were the ones that came immediately in my head when I thought about it, in order of significance to me. There may be others that I am forgetting, so please add those if you feel they are necessary.
To prevent this topic from going down the shithole, I am going to administer and guide the debate. Though I'm not a mod, big Blue Kirby, Maniaclyrasist, zerowing, Great Sage, and Iggybot are all good friends of mine, and I will ask them to rain fiery hell on you should you decide to hijack this topic with an off topic post or irrelevant statement ^_^
The first order of business is listing out what all the issues are. I have 7 outlined, but again, I might have missed some factors, so before thinking about commenting please think about what other issues exist.
Next order of business is decided which are and which aren't issues, so kindly list whatever factors you feel reduce the battling aspect's "appeal."
Third order of business is determining what to actually do about these issues, but I don't want to get into that right now, as I'd like to firmly iron out the first two before getting into that.
I also think that to prevent a lot of potential digression in this topic that when debate on the issues themselves is opened, I should only allow discussion of one at a time. So please continually check back to this first post to see what order of business / issue is currently open for discussion. I will edit the thread's focus here as often as necessary, to help keep you up to date with progress.
Currently discussing: Any potential addition of issues, and which issues deserved to be discussed and why. So please, in your posts explicitly state any additional issues, and explicitly state which issues you feel are actually issues and issues are not. Also, the damage range issue seems to be causing the most polarity right now, so I'd like all posters who read this to give their thoughts on that subject. is the 85 - 100% range too much? If so, how would you "fix" it?
(I feel all 7 need to be discussed, btw)