Policy Review Policy Review - Order of Events

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DougJustDoug

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Our current process order needs some tweaks. I am not advocating any major shakeups, but I know some of you are chomping at the bit to propose a controversial change, so I expect this PR thread to have some lively debate. The issues I want to address are fairly minor:

  • I don't like the fact that for 90% of the CAP project -- we have no name for our creation. Referring to "CAP5" or "Rockmon" is OK for a little while, but it doesn't build "brand identity" (as they say in the marketing biz) and gets in the way of people taking ownership in the creation. It's hard to love something with a cold, soulless name like "CAP5". I want the name polls moved as early as is reasonably possible, so we can attach a name to our creation and begin building excitement early on. Also, it makes discussions easier.

  • The sprite thread was open way too long in CAP 5. Part of this is due to a very long project overall, but I am beating that drum over in another PR thread. Even if the project was shorter, I still think it would have been open too long. Sprite threads need a long time to develop, but not 33 days -- which is how long it was open in CAP5.

    By the time the Sprite Poll was conducted, the Sprite thread had lost all its energy and enthusiasm. Therefore, the Sprite Poll was a ho-hum affair, even though the overall number of high-quality sprites was better than any past CAP project. The Sprite Poll is intended to end the CAP project on a high-note, with an awesome sprite that has everyone salivating to see it implemented on the CAP server. In fact, an exciting CAP sprite poll should be the perfect lead-in to a surge of new players on the server, and hopefully a nice start to the playtesting effort. If the Sprite thread isn't timed properly, it's a huge buzzkill on the project at a time when we really need to end with a bang.
With these two things in mind, I propose the following revision to the Order of Events:

Code:
(Multiple parts with a single bullet, means they are initiated simutaneously)
[LIST]
[*]Concept Submissions
Topic Leader Nominations


[*]Part 1 (Concept Poll)
Topic Leader Selection


[*]Part 2 (Main Type Poll)


[*]Part 3 (Secondary Type Poll)


[*]Part 4 (Style Bias Poll)
Stat Spread Submissions
Art Submissions


[*]Part 5 (Build Bias Poll)


[*]Part 6 (Stat Rating Poll)


[*]Part 7 (Stat Spread Poll)


[*]Part 8 (Art Poll)


[*]Part 9a (Ability Discussion)
Part 10a (Name Discussion)


[*]Part 9b (Ability Poll)
Part 10b (Name Poll)


[*]Part 11a (Attack Moves Discussion)
Sprite Submissions


[*]Part 11b (Attack Moves Poll)
Part 12a (Defense and Support Moves Discussion)


[*]Part 12b (Defense and Support Moves Poll)


[*]Part 13 (Complete Movepool Poll)
Part 14a (Pokedex Entry Discussion)


[*]Part 14b (Pokedex Entry Poll)
Part 15 (Sprite Poll)


[*]Server Implementation
Finalize Analysis
Misc (Pre-Evos, Height, Weight, etc.)


[*]Playtesting
[/LIST]
This sequence would allow us to have the name picked immediately after deciding on the art. Also the Sprite Thread is pushed a little later in the process. It still has plenty of time to get some quality sprites, but it curbs the risk of having it stay open too long.


Moving art to the end of the process
I know this has been mentioned quite a bit on the server, and I know it is going to be discussed here. So, I might as well get my concerns out in the OP, so everyone can factor this into any proposals they wish to make.

There is currently a suggestion to delay the art threads until the end of the project, presumably after the movepool has been decided. In this way, ALL competitive aspects of the pokemon will be decided first, without being influenced by a non-competitive aspect like art. This would presumably eliminate all the flavor disputes that arise the minute good art starts appearing in the art thread. This would also allow the artists to make designs that fit the entire pokemon, not just the typing and stats -- which are the only aspects decided before the art poll currently.

I understand the desire to do this, and I think there are many benefits. But, I believe the negatives outweigh the positives.

If we tack the art onto the end, it will cause the projects to stretch even longer than they already are. Art must be done before sprites, and those two steps take a long time to complete. Right now, art threads are open concurrent with the rest of the project. This gives artists plenty of time to make submissions, receive feedback and make changes. If we pile it all at the end, it will either compel the artists to rush, or it will make the overall project too long. This practical scheduling concern with the art thread, has been discussed over the last three CAP projects, and there has not been a better solution presented up to now.

But, even if the schedule could accomodate art at the end -- I still don't think it is in the project's best interest to do so.

As I have mentioned here and elsewhere - momentum is a huge part of the CAP project's success. CAP projects are EXCITING. When a CAP project is really firing on all cylinders, this is one of the most exciting forums in all of Smogon. Despite all the focus we put on our riveting discussion of the competitive metagame -- those discussions are only one part of the overall allure of the CAP project.

Art plays a HUGE role in the overall appeal of our project. This project caters to and covets artists, and we do so for a reason. Cool art gives visual form to a cool project. People love pretty pictures.

We intentionally spread art threads throughout the entirety of the CAP process to provide an interesting and exciting backdrop to the competitive discussions that are ongoing. Hopefully, while people are visiting and perusing the cool sexy pictures -- they might take the time to lurk the other threads and realize what a good thing we have going here. Art is good advertising, and it builds community morale -- even for the project diehards. I want to make sure we spread that morale evenly throughout the length of the project.

I realize that flavor issues are annoying during competitive discussions. But trying to "remove the temptation" by moving art to the end of the project is not going to solve it. Fanboys will still run rampant on the project, but instead of using the art as justification for their silly flavor arguments, they will use typing, ability, stats, and moves. Delaying art isn't going to make the noob fanboys any smarter. You are kidding yourself if you think it will.

Delaying art won't impact the quality of discussions from longtime CAP contributors. Those members are already capable of differentiating between flavor and competition -- and they know the proper time and place to discuss each.

So what purpose will it serve? It will possibly rush and diminish the contributions made by the fantastic artists and spriters on the project. And it will possibly diminish the momentum of a project that desperately needs to maintain it. All in some vain attempt to stop fanboys from shitting up CAP threads? No, it's not worth it, in my opinion.

If we want to stop the flavor madness, we need to do so through education and other means. Not by treating art like a liability on the CAP project, when it is, in fact, one of our most exciting assets.
 
Ok i just want to first ask If I'm even allowed to discuss evo's process in tandem with cap's process because that might save me alot of time if i can't :}
 

DougJustDoug

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No. This PR thread is to address the Order of Events for regular CAP projects.

Also, in case anyone else tries to use this as launching point into a content discussion of any or all of the steps -- do not post regarding the content of the steps, unless the content discussion pertains directly to a point regarding the sequence. We are simply evaluating a change to the sequence of events presented in the OP.
 
Personally I believe that taking art out of CAP would do the project some good, but that's my opinion.

Doug, didn't you made a suggestion about moving art until after the competitive movepool have been figured out? Since the final movepool discussion is just there to add filler/flavor movepools for completion, it make sense the art threads there.
 
I was the one who made that suggestion in the other thread, unless Doug agreed with me elsewhere or we coincidentally had the same idea ._.

but yes, I believe that would be very beneficial to the process.

edit: my post from the other thread:
I propose that non-competitive moves are not decided on until after the Artwork and Pokedex, amongst other miscellaneous aspects, are completed. By doing this the best possible competitive movepool is allowed based off of what we want this pokemon's function to rather than be restricting the movepool based off of art. If the art allows for more competitive moves or limits the plausiblity of some others, than an adjustment thread should go on for movepool. Granted, the actually deciding of competitive moves would go on in the same process as stated in your post, as well as a complete competitive movepool, but a full movepool wouldn't be decided on until art was.
 

DougJustDoug

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Personally I believe that taking art out of CAP would do the project some good, but that's my opinion.

Doug, didn't you made a suggestion about moving art until after the competitive movepool have been figured out? Since the final movepool discussion is just there to add filler/flavor movepools for completion, it make sense the art threads there.
I was the one who made that suggestion in the other thread, unless Doug agreed with me elsewhere or we coincidentally had the same idea ._.

but yes, I believe that would be very beneficial to the process.

edit: my post from the other thread:

I agree there are benefits to moving the art until after the competitive movepool. By the way -- after the competitive movepool = end of the project. There is really nothing after that. There is the Complete Movepool and then Pokedex Entries. If your suggestion is mentioned as a compromise, I'm not seeing it that way. Implementing the change is effectively moving the art to the end of the project. Which I agree has some benefits. But, I believe the negatives outweigh the positives. How do you propose to address the drawbacks I mentioned in the OP?
 
Personally, I agree with everything doug has said. The name games the pokemon an identity and attaches people to it more. Also, making the art before the movepool is very important. Some of the art designs that were thought up would not ahve worked with this movepool (The planet/comet using slash?!?!). Its is easier to make a movepool match art then to make art match a movepool
 

Bass

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It's annoying to listen to people make choices on the competitive aspects of the process based on the artwork, but it's just as annoying to listen to people bring down someone's artwork because it doesn't "look" like it could use <insert move here>, which is less important than the former. That's why I agree with Doug's stance as to where the Art Submissions stand in the process. Our goal is to create a final product that is competitive in the standard metagame, but the artwork is what makes it unique. As Doug said, it gives the project a "brand". After all, we can crunch lots of numbers and stats to come up with our pokemon, but it is the artwork, just as much as the name or the concept, that gives it an identity. This is very helpful in maintaining the momentum this project needs.
 
fair enough. I can support your notion of not moving art to the end, and i agree that it will muck up pacing.

The competitive aspect of a cap project would be at best finding an ideal niche for a pokemon in a metagame, down to the very pokemon it would keep in check and be kept in check by, but having this niche nailed down isn't going to start happening until midway through the project when typing/bias is determined, and even then there's lose ends (usually tied down around 12b~).

Essentially it's unreasonable to tie down a niche until movepool is all but complete. What I'm getting to is that it will be hard to definitely tie cap to a competitive niche just by definition so it's not really fair to move artists to the end. With cap our niche is pretty much "competitive" or "OU", which is a pretty broad basis to build on (pretty much we start from scratch)

The fact is that tons of hard work has gone into cap's art in general and it attracts alot of users which isn't really bad, we just need to make sure they're informed in competitive votes.

I really have no problem with art being concurrent with cap simply because it's kind of naive to try to turn cap into a purely competitive project.

movepool being a function of art might be solved by deciding all competitive moves preliminarily, possibly after stat bias ( so that we can add "noncompetitive moves" if the artwork is not justified by the "preliminary movepool". obviously there will be completely imcompatible movepools/designs that will arise so we would need a policy to address the possiblity of two such elements being paired together.

I also realize this suggestion might make the process look alot more disconnected and might not be worth it to accomodate artists+those who would prefer art be a function of movepool and not vice versa.

edit: heh this post took more time than i thought, its cool to see other people had about the same idea
 

DougJustDoug

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The competitive aspect of a cap project would be at best finding an ideal niche for a pokemon in a metagame, down to the very pokemon it would keep in check and be kept in check by, but having this niche nailed down isn't going to start happening until midway through the project when typing/bias is determined, and even then there's lose ends (usually tied down around 12b~).
Put this particular sentence on the backburner for just a little longer. I have another PR thread coming up that will bring this exact issue to the forefront.

I know I keep telling you and others to wait for more PR threads, but we have had many of these ideas teed up for a while, just waiting for CAP 5 to complete before engaging in Policy Review.

I personally have been working on a series of Policy Reviews that have been nicknamed "The Big 7" in server discussions, since I plan to make seven separate PR threads this time around. It's "Big" because we normally only have one or two.

Five down, two to go...
 
heh it's hard for me to look at individual issues without looking at the big picture as a reference/basis for most of my arguments. hopefully i'm not going out of line (again).

I'm really in awe of the quality of the work you've been doing so again i hope im not appearing to think disrespecting guidelines is fine, i really just have trouble focussing on the individual issues since they're all kind of tied together in my head ^_^;;
 
The only change I would suggest to you order Doug is bump Art down after ability. Im fine with giving art some time to devlope and Im not really worried about conflicts between art and movepool cause the game has shown design sometimes impacts moves and sometimes it doesn't so neither side really gains any leverage with art.

However the ability is a major defining aspect to a pokemon's competiveness and I would prefer it get decided early in the project and without any potential influence from noncompetive sources.

I dont think this change will hurt the Art process at all. Ability is a major topic and I think shifting art after it will be a refreshing change of pace once its settled. I also feel that any worry about dragging the process out wont happen because the process changes proposed in the other recent policy reviews should ensure that things move along smoothly
 
if we move it to after ability according to pacing we'd be looking at around 4~5 days for art/sprite vs 8~9. im estimating but that's pretty significant.

another thing is there's alot of concurrent stuff happening even without the art and stuff starts to get cluttered if you save art for last. i like dougs idea of keeping it open longer simply because it doesn't rush work on the design/sprite submission. we shouldn't be waiting on art if all goes well but looking back it's the part that usually (and should) take the longest time, not to mention it attracts more users.
 
Moving art to the end of the process
I know this has been mentioned quite a bit on the server, and I know it is going to be discussed here. So, I might as well get my concerns out in the OP, so everyone can factor this into any proposals they wish to make.

There is currently a suggestion to delay the art threads until the end of the project, presumably after the movepool has been decided. In this way, ALL competitive aspects of the pokemon will be decided first, without being influenced by a non-competitive aspect like art. This would presumably eliminate all the flavor disputes that arise the minute good art starts appearing in the art thread. This would also allow the artists to make designs that fit the entire pokemon, not just the typing and stats -- which are the only aspects decided before the art poll currently.

I understand the desire to do this, and I think there are many benefits. But, I believe the negatives outweigh the positives.

If we tack the art onto the end, it will cause the projects to stretch even longer than they already are. Art must be done before sprites, and those two steps take a long time to complete. Right now, art threads are open concurrent with the rest of the project. This gives artists plenty of time to make submissions, receive feedback and make changes. If we pile it all at the end, it will either compel the artists to rush, or it will make the overall project too long. This practical scheduling concern with the art thread, has been discussed over the last three CAP projects, and there has not been a better solution presented up to now.

I agree that the sprite step would extend the project a bit further, but by doing what I propose more time is allowed for discussion of what has been voted on for the created pokemon before everything is finalized, which could prevent the need for revisions like with Syclant, as well as deciding on several other non-competitive issues. What I really wanted is the Art VOTE, not the entire thread, to be after the competitive issues, though ideally I'd have both after, but I have to make some compromise here in order to suit the project more with my idea.

But, even if the schedule could accomodate art at the end -- I still don't think it is in the project's best interest to do so.

As I have mentioned here and elsewhere - momentum is a huge part of the CAP project's success. CAP projects are EXCITING. When a CAP project is really firing on all cylinders, this is one of the most exciting forums in all of Smogon. Despite all the focus we put on our riveting discussion of the competitive metagame -- those discussions are only one part of the overall allure of the CAP project.

Think of my proposal as dramatic build up, only moreso than what we have had with past CaPs :)

Art plays a HUGE role in the overall appeal of our project. This project caters to and covets artists, and we do so for a reason. Cool art gives visual form to a cool project. People love pretty pictures.

agreed

We intentionally spread art threads throughout the entirety of the CAP process to provide an interesting and exciting backdrop to the competitive discussions that are ongoing. Hopefully, while people are visiting and perusing the cool sexy pictures -- they might take the time to lurk the other threads and realize what a good thing we have going here. Art is good advertising, and it builds community morale -- even for the project diehards. I want to make sure we spread that morale evenly throughout the length of the project.

feel free to keep the concept art submission thread open for the course of the project, rather just the vote afterwards.

I realize that flavor issues are annoying during competitive discussions. But trying to "remove the temptation" by moving art to the end of the project is not going to solve it. Fanboys will still run rampant on the project, but instead of using the art as justification for their silly flavor arguments, they will use typing, ability, stats, and moves. Delaying art isn't going to make the noob fanboys any smarter. You are kidding yourself if you think it will.

i fully realize that. the only way we could eliminate any fanboyism is for every poll to have bolded votes and paragraph explanations as to why with a commitee anlazing each vote, and that won't be happening anytime soon.

Delaying art won't impact the quality of discussions from longtime CAP contributors. Those members are already capable of differentiating between flavor and competition -- and they know the proper time and place to discuss each.

now how many members that vote here are actually top contributors to the project? I have voted in all of the CaP projects and the most i contributed was a pokedex entry and a name. I'd argue that this is more for the users who are new to the project and just want to create a pokemon as opposed to something to add to the metagame.

So what purpose will it serve? It will possibly rush and diminish the contributions made by the fantastic artists and spriters on the project. And it will possibly diminish the momentum of a project that desperately needs to maintain it. All in some vain attempt to stop fanboys from shitting up CAP threads? No, it's not worth it, in my opinion.

spriters might have limited time, unless CaP is to be extended for an end discussion about the past votes, as well as flavor votes, but art would actually have more time.

If we want to stop the flavor madness, we need to do so through education and other means. Not by treating art like a liability on the CAP project, when it is, in fact, one of our most exciting assets.

I consider art very important to the project. However, as to its importance to the actual goal of the project, it is more flavor than anything else. I dont expect all flavor gone, nor my proposal the best on possible to fit what everyone wants, but looking from a purely competitive standpoint, it is possibly the best way to go, and even allows extra time for both flavor and adjustment of competitive factors, which ultimately gives us better results than what normal processes would produce.
now here is what I am proposing:

1. Concept Submissions and Topic Leader Nominations

2. Topic Leader Selection and Concept Poll

3. Typing Discussion/Submission

4. Main Typing Poll

5. Secondary Typing Poll

6. Style Bias Poll and Stat Spread Submissions; Art Submissions begin

7. Build Bias Poll

8. Stat Rating Poll

9. Stat Spread Poll

10. Ability Discussion

11. Ability Poll

12. Competitive Attack Moves Discussion

13. C.A. Vote

14. Competitive Defense/Support Moves Discussion

15. C.D.S. Poll

16. Competitive Movepool Submissions

17. Competitive Movepool vote

18. Art Poll

19. Name discussion; Sprite Submissions

20. Name Vote

21. Flavor Moves discussion

22. Flavor Moves vote

23. Pokedex/Misc. Data Submissions (Height, weight, prevos, etc.)

24. Pokedex/Misc. Vote

25. Revision discussion (base stats, movepool, build bias, etc.)

26. Revision vote(s)

27. Sprite Vote

28. Server Implementation

29. Finalize Analysis

30. Playtesting
Now this may seem long, but that is just because I didnt split it up into parts like 13a/13b or combine polls by timing like doug did, but nonetheless it is a longer process. However, this process allows adequate time for discussion for competitive aspects as well as granting a lot of time for both Art and Sprites (sprites not as much, but still more than if art submissions were held off until the end. I have presented all of my arguements already, so I have nothing further to say. Regardless if my ideas are accepted or not, thank you all for considering them.
 

Deck Knight

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My thought process regarding Art:

Yeah, a grand apology to the "competitive movepool first, worry about Art Later" crowd but sadly, your opinion is not reality based.

Many of the moves in pokemon, but especially physical attacks, require actual physical characteristics to enable them. If I hear one more "Wooper Focus Punch" bs reasoning I think my head will explode. We want to emulate what we think a gamefreak screwup was?

If you want Close Combat, you have to have a pokemon capable of switching rapidly between at least two limbs at a close range. Punching requires fists (Sucker Punch is better translated as "Ambush"), Kicking requires feet, Slashes require Claws or some other sharp implement, etc. Self-destruct and Explosion generally require an inorganic body and/or extremely high volatility (See: Skuntank). As mystical and magical as pokemon may be, only in extremely rare instances do pokemon get moves out of the ordinary. Lucario for example is shown in the Anime Gym battle creating a Bone Staff out of Aura energy to use Bone Club, and getting energy claws to implement Metal Claw. This is all fine and good for a "pseudo-legend" like Lucario, but most of our pokemon are much less "mystic" in flavor.

For special attacks the reasoning is more nuanced. Most of then are delineated by type or follow some kind of pattern, like sharp-clawed pokemon with a penchant for brutality getting Giga Drain. There are always a few catch-alls to argue over like Focus Blast and the like. And I'm all fine to have that discussion.

I think the proposed timeline moving the Sprite Submission further out is a wise idea. The Sprite thread really stagnated after a while.
 
Thats why I included a revision vote in the end. By having that revision vote, we can decide of some moves don't suit the artwork at all and if some other moves would be able to, and adjustments to movepool are made then while other processes including misc. data and sprite submissions go on. It would be a bit annoying for special pokemon yes, but by spending more time on movepool wouldnt there be more time for spriters who would have a bit less time by my proposed process?
 
How do you propose to address the drawbacks I mentioned in the OP?
To be honest, I don't have any true answer for that. I let what you and everyone who posted comment's boil within my mind for some time now and I can say this....it's best to leave the art poll the way it is. I had many ideas about what to do with art, but not one of them seem to have more positive than negatives.Thought about removing art from the project completely, but like you said people love pretty picture. Let's be honest with ourselves, most (not all but most) of the newcomers come to CAP because of the kickass art going on here. Art is like the bait that bring the mice over to the trap. Without any appealing artwork, most people would avoid this place and/or leave which isn't good for the product longevity.

Moving art into after the competitive movepool seem like a good idea, but like you said eariler that would basically be the same as placing it at the end. That leads to the project lasting longer than it should be and as we seen before, prolonging a process isn't a good idea. Understandingly, moving it to that spot means that art have to conform towards the movepool and not the other way around which some people believe is more beneficial.

Many of the moves in Pokemon, but especially physical attacks, require actual physical characteristics to enable them. If I hear one more "Wooper Focus Punch" BS reasoning I think my head will explode. We want to emulate what we think a gamefreak screwup was?
Erh...if we do competitive movepool before art, wouldn't artist just make a design around the allowed competitive moves, you know conform art towards the movepool?
 
I believe Ability should actually be nearer to the front . Some pokemon will fit a concept or niche better through an Ability then they ever will via Stat spreads, typing or whatever (Magnezone, Dugtrio, Clefable).

The current order doesn't really allow us to make a pokemon like this, everyone is so worried that a pokemon will underperform or just be crap that they always make sure it has a really good stat spread. Then by the time it comes to the ability poll we can never add the abilities that may fit a role better because they would be "broken" between the combination of Ability and Good Stats.

I am not sure putting it before stat rating poll will be the answer but i think it should be discussed.
 
I believe Ability should actually be nearer to the front . Some pokemon will fit a concept or niche better through an Ability then they ever will via Stat spreads, typing or whatever (Magnezone, Dugtrio, Clefable).

The current order doesn't really allow us to make a pokemon like this, everyone is so worried that a pokemon will underperform or just be crap that they always make sure it has a really good stat spread. Then by the time it comes to the ability poll we can never add the abilities that may fit a role better because they would be "broken" between the combination of Ability and Good Stats.

I am not sure putting it before stat rating poll will be the answer but i think it should be discussed.
I agree. Should we want to create a very powerful physical or special sweeper, for example - just for example - we could put an ability like Pure Power to give him that so-high attack stat, while it is very unlikely that we end up giving something like 180 Atk to something like that. Take Farfetch'd EVO example. We wanted a bulky sweeper but, if we wanted to not exceed in the BST, we would have been forced not to make the EVO competitive for OU. Just by giving to the EVO a spread like 94/60/95/75/90/71 with Pure Power as an option we would have had a competitive bulky sweeper (provided no Brave Bird/CC^^)
Maybe I have gone a little Off Topic, so excuse me for that. This was just to show that, as latino said, decide the stat spread before the ability often exclude those very good abilities like Pure Power, Magnet Pull and Magic Guard to even be considered because they would make a 510+BST poke broken.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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I agree with Doug that Art really should be before movepool (and IMO Ability), for much the same reasons as him.

I also agree with latino and zarator that Ability should be before stats, stats are much more easy to make minor tweaks of power, and ability can be much more central to how a Pokemon plays.

The order we use right now pretty much excludes the really useful ability's (things like Pure Power, Trapping abilities, Wonder Guard or new ones with simmilar importance) and the totally crippleing abilities (Like Slow Start and Truant or any new ones we may want to make.) as people will NOT vote for a stat spread that is weak enough to acomadate an incredable ability and stay OU or so powerful that it can have a crippleing ability and still stay OU.

To solve this I propose we move Art even earlier and have this arrangement (just the relivant section):

1) Concept
2) Type
(open the Art submittion thread here)
3) Style/Build Bias
4) Art
5) Ability Poll (Name poll can run alongside Ability so that the people uninterested in flavour have something to keep them around)
6) Stat rating
7) Stat Spread

This will cut down slightly on the time artists have to finish their designs, if someone has a suggestion that would improve this it would be good (Something that fits well before Art). The Stat Spread and Stat Rating Polls has been moved from just before Art to after Ability.

I would also support having the Dex entry poll running alongside the movepool section, or maybe removeing it entirely.
 
I could agree with the order of operations given by Eric, but please, please, I do no want any longer read people complaining about giving a necessary move such as Calm Mind, Taunt, and a lot of others to a pokemon just because it "does not fit the art". Hoping to reflect the opinion of a lot of members, I understand that putting art last means losing too much time, but dont think this will authorize any flavour-based argument to overwhelm competitive points. If we think CAP6 will need Bulk Up, it will have it, even if it should have the same sprite of Dugtrio
 
I like really like Erics proposal since I agree ability should be done early and allows more room in stat spreads. Plus, it ensures art still gets enough time.
 

DougJustDoug

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Latino raised an interesting point. I agree that the current process effectively eliminates certain "extreme" abilities. I don't call them "extreme" in a pejorative sense. I just mean that certain abilities have such dramatic effects on the pokemon's play, that they can't be paired with a normal CAP stat spread -- which is usually very balanced, and has a high BSR.

I tend to accept this as an unavoidable consequence of our community creation process. We know our process is not perfect for making great pokemon. It will never be perfect, and not all of our pokemon will be great because of it.

A perfect creation process would involve a very small team of people with diverse talents getting together in a room, mixing and matching all the various elements of a pokemon. Adding things here, taking away things there, constantly shaping and revising the pokemon, tweaking and balancing the art, stats, moves, typing, and abilities -- until a final beautiful masterpiece is complete.

Such a process is logistically impossible for a community of thousands of members. Our process has several inherent barriers to efficiency:

  • This is a forum project, therefore we communicate through forum posts, not face-to-face. In live conversations, information flows freely and encourages brainstorming. Forum posting is slow and non-interactive.

  • Every decision requires multiple rounds of democratic voting. Even a single vote is a major production. With a worldwide community, even the smallest, simplest decisions require a minimum of 24hours to decide. It usually takes several days.

  • The level of knowledge, expertise, and maturity of project participants varies widely. This makes it very difficult to discuss even basic concepts, since every discussion becomes a "training session" to a certain extent for the less-experienced members of the community. This wide diversity in knowledge also causes massive fluctuations in what is considered "a good idea" on any given topic.

  • There is constant interruption and diversions introduced from noobs, dumbasses, and troublemakers. This constantly diverts focus from the task at hand.

These inherent problems will never be solved. All we can do is work with them as best we can.

As such, our process must be structured as a sequential, end-to-end process, with each step building on the previous steps. It is virtually impossible to go back a change anything after it has already been decided. Read the problems I listed above, if you want to know why each decision must be effectively "set in stone" during the creation process. If we don't make concrete decisions and move on, then we will have a jumbled mess or we will never finish the process.

So, we are stuck with a process that is necessarily slow, non-interactive, and decisions can't be changed once they are made. It not a great way to make a product -- but it is the "nature of the beast".

I would love to be able to go back-and-forth on all aspects of the pokemon. I wish we could throw out some stats, then talk about abilities, then revise the stats based on the popular abilities, then throw up some possible movepools and kick that around for a while, go back and tweak the stats and abilities based on the moves, maybe even alter the typing where necessary.

There is no way we can pull that off.

We have to line our steps up in an order. And that means we can't have any two aspects "interact" with each other. In a perfect process, ability and stats should interact. But we can't have a perfect process, so we need to decide which comes first -- ability or stats.

Since the stats define the pokemon as bulky, fast, offensive, physical, special, etc -- I think that is a much more fundamental underpinning of the pokemon than Abilities. Yes, there are some cases where the ability would actually be a bigger part of the foundation of the pokemon. But, in most cases, I think the pokemon's build and style (stat-wise) is more of a basic building block.

As such, I think stats should probably come before ability -- even if that means that certain cool abilities are probably never going to be possible on a CAP pokemon.


EDIT: I see eric's suggestion of splitting up the stat polls by moving up the style and build polls, but leaving the actual stat spread polls for later. That's an interesting compromise. I need to think about it some more. I'm also curious what others think about it.
 
I'm going to support Eric's idea to move Ability before Complete Stat Spreads. Adaptability was defacto barred from the CAP5 Ability Discussion simply because the stats would almost irrevocably cause it to be broken. Stats are a much more fluid process than Ability, since we are choosing from a list with abilities (for the most part). It's much easier to revise a stat spread to account for an ability (revise during the creation process, not after voting) than to revise an ability to fit a stat spread (if I suggested a Pure Power that did 1.5x instead of 2x, there is almost no chance it would make it).


So I agree with Eric about moving the Ability poll before the Stat poll, but don't really have a stance on his movement of the art thread. (For reference, I'm not going to comment in any PR thread about art since all I do during that phase is watch people produce art, I have no clue how the artists feel.)
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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While I agree with your "Life is about the journey, not the result." sentiment entirely I do think that adjusting te process in the way I proposed would allow more possibilities (Can you imagine a Pokemon with the type of Stat spreads we have been giving out getting a trapping ability?) but there would be some cost. The artists would have less time. I do not know if the reduction of however much time it takes to do Stat Ratings and Final stat polls is cutting it down too much.

What would be useful would be to find a step that is not affected by art (and does not affect art) that can be placed almost directly after Type.

This is kind of like those puzzles.. maybe if I arrange it like this it would help..
Before --> After

Type --> Everything but concept
Art --> Ability
Art --> Movepool (it may be possible to have a discussion before art, but nothing should be voted on.)
Ability --> Final Stats
Final Stats --> Movepool
Prelimanary Stats must be before Final Stats, and can go anywhere after Type.
Name can go anywhere, but after Art is better.

And the aim is to have as much room between Type and Art.

Is there any important step I have missed, maybe something that can go between Type and Art?
Or anyone want a particular restriction explained?
 
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