Why the hell aren't you using him yet!?! (Rhyperior Discussion)

[Colonel M]

What a cool Pokemon, eh?

Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/rhyperior

So today I bring up the question: have you ever considered Rhyperior for your OU team? What has made you use him, or why have you turned him down in the process? I bet its those weaknesses. A total of 6 makes Rhyperior's day look somewhat grim; however, Solid Rock "solidifies" those weaknesses. To take a Super Effective move and to tone it down to be similair to a STAB move is quite impressive. This guy here is a beast with 115 HP, 140 Attack, and 130 Defense. His other stats seem lackluster, but I'll get to that in a minute.

First off, the recommendation: Sandstorm. This weather status, alone, is important to Rhyperior's success. Next is how you want to play Rhyperior. Most play with him offensively. Others tend to go toward a defensive route. Me, personally? I combine them both to Rhyperior's advantage.

I even gave it a cool name:

SU(B)PERIOR!

[SET]
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Swords Dance / Megahorn
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Earthquake
item: Leftovers
ability: Solid Rock
nature: Adamant
EVs: 132 HP / 192 Atk / 16 SpD / 168 Spe

Okay, so why have I used this set? It's very simple: find Pokemon that won't break Rhyperior's Substitute. And let me tell you that its pretty easy to find if you know what you're doing. Blissey Ice Beam, Bronzong Gyro Ball, and quite a few other Attacks won't break the Substitute. To make matters worse, Substitute blocks status against the opponent, making Will-O-Wisp a futile attempt. The Speed EVs outpace Swampert, Machamp, and Porygon2. But I'm not here to explain the set, I'm here to tell you WHY to use the set. If you're not the type to use Swords Dance, use Megahorn since Rhyperior is a great lure to Celebi and Starmie.

If being able to SubDance wasn't enough, here are a few other reasons why its such a great set. The EVs alone play a crucial part for Rhyperior's success:

- Timid Heatran's Earth Power is a 3HKO.
- Zapdos Hidden Power Ice won't 2HKO Rhyperior (with Life Orb).
- Blissey's Ice Beam won't break the Substitute (as well as Seismic Toss).
- Bronzong and Forretress's Gyro Ball won't break the Substitute.
- Cresselia can only break it with Grass Knot (which is extremely uncommon).
- Physical Jirachi that lack Iron Head are walled by this beast.
- Salamence Earthquake is a 2HKO at best.
- Scizor won't OHKO with Bullet Punch.
- Gliscor Earthquake won't 2HKO.

Well, I could go on all day, but you get the picture. Rhyperior is only OHKOed in a few situations like Celebi Grass Knot and such. It's hard to really explain on paper. Rather, you should look into this in battle. It seriously is an impressive set, though many people scoff it off because Rhyperior is so slow. I wouldn't bet your money that you haven't seen something like this before (especially since I have used it) and wishing that you thought differently.

Originally Posted by Fat SoT

I've recently started using the Sub SD Rhyperior mentioned above. I was iffy about it at first, but after using it for a while, and getting a feel for it, I believe it's one of the best decisions I have ever made. The raw power this guy brings to the table is amazing, and after a SD, not to many things stand a chance. Yeah, everyone says he's to slow, but that's what I like about him. You don't know how many Skarms I have killed while they roost on me because of this lack of speed. Yeah you can say that is what hurts it the most, but that's what I believe is the beauty of using this guy. Not anyone can use this, it actually takes quite amount of skill, when to set up, when to attack, when to sub stall. It's all risk and reward, and that's why I beleive it's my kind of pokemon. =D

All in all, I believe he is a very good pokemon, in should be given some thought when building teams. He is a great offensive threat, and is one hell of a defensive monster. Rhyperior for OU!

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

The first post pretty much mentioned my only criticism, that being that I would feel awkward running Rhyperior and Tyranitar on the same team (I'm not about to use Hippowdon any time soon).

Outside that though I have to agree that Rhyperior is a terrific pokemon. I've faced the substitute set before and despite having Gyarados, Mild Infernape (grass knot does not 1hko), Flygon (who resists both stabs) and Scizor on my team, I'd say 75% of the times I've fought it I had to sacrifice a pokemon to it before taking it down. It's that tough.

There is another set that I highly recommend. Rhyperior's main problem: Speed. Solution? Rock Polish!

[SET]
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Megahorn / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Liechi Berry
ability: Solid Rock
nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

This is another of Rhyperior's "deadly" strategies. Rock Polish makes Rhyperior's ass Speed become 392, surpassing the likes of Shaymin-S. This alone is impressive since Rhyprior has a Speed stat of 40. And with a 140 Attack stat beside this, its a force to be reckoned with.

Originally Posted by Fat MS

I am using it, thanks for ruining it for me Colonel M :(.

But yeah I've found that by far, the most effective set is the Rock Polish (Megahorn as fourth move) one. Late game, its ability to take out slightly weakened threats and such is second to none, i love it and have been scoffing at all those who call Rhyperior "useless".

And I'm just showing these two sets that I have been successful with. There are obviously more: the Swords Dance set with Baton Passing Zapdos is nasty to deal with. In the Sandstorm, Rhyprerior should easily survive the incoming Ice Beam and finish the opponent off with its powerful STAB moves. Here's the old discussion (by me ironically).

Originally Posted by Fat skiddle

I like the Swords Dance Life Orb set myself. Absolutely annihilates stall teams, switching into Blissey with impunity, then destroying everything with a 1081 attack Earthquake or Stone Edge. It can OHKO Swampert and almost OHKO Skarmory after the boost.

Defensively is where I'm going to take a turn on. What I've outlined above... isn't the only things Rhyperior can survive. With Sandstorm and Solid Rock, there are a ton of moves that Rhyperior could survive. Other than what I have outlined above, Rhyperior can even challenge Sub / Calm Mind Raikou and come out the victor. Its amazing what a Rhyperior can do if you set your mind to it.

If you want to rag about it a little more, Rhyperior can survive a Starmie Surf, a Celebi Grass Knot, and Shaymin-S Seed Flare with Max HP / Max SpD Careful nature (which is highly acceptable).

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

339 SpA Skymin's Seed Flare vs. Max HP/Max SDef Rhyperior w/Sandstorm: (87.79% - 104.38%)

I think I got you convinced, but what about other Pokemon. What are cool teammates to support this helluva beast? Well, here are a couple:


Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/tyranitar
Platinum Update Thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47237

Tyranitar gives the key support for Rhyperior: Sandstorm. With this present, Rhyperior and Tyranitar gain the blessing of obtaining a boost in Special Defense. And to underestimate the Choice Band version is something that will cost you dearly.

Also, Choice Band isn't the only useful set. Another useful post from Chou on using the SubPerior and Tyranitar as a Special user:

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

Just wanted to come back and say I tried this out today, and it works really well. Special Sub-TTar + Sub-Perior work pretty damn well together.

Just pack a lot of grass attacks on your other members because swampert's a bitch. Have something to beat fighting pokemon too . . .

Also if you're running a lot of paralysis support and hate stone edge's accuracy, rock slide is always an option. Fuck shaymin and togekiss-- paraflinch rhyperior ftw.

Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/zapdos
Platinum Update Thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47247

Zapdos I've chosen many times for two reasons. One: it handles Celebi pretty well with Heat Wave. Two, Agility Passing Zapdos is awesome alongside the Swords Dance set.


Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/vaporeon

Well, it absorbs those nasty Surf attacks, and can usually hold its own. Unfortunately, it doesn't fare very well against Starmie. But, it can at least prevent other Bulky Waters from harming Rhyperior. Wish also is helpful for Vaporeon and Rhyperior's survival.

There are obviously many more Pokemon that pair well with Rhyperior. Heatran is by far a good example by picking off Celebi and Shaymin-S with relative ease. Scizor can combat Gengar and other glass cannons. Seriously, there are so many ways to build a Rhyperior team, and all you need is a little knowledge.

So in this thread, post your success with Rhyperior. Or rather, show others why Rhyperior should be an OU Pokemon than the usual BL Pokemon that it currently is. Having Solid Rock and the 1.5x boost from Sandstorm is useful for Rhyperior as well. So what the hell are you waiting for!?! Go use the greatest addition to Diamond and Pearl! I have a feeling that it could be the next big thing for OU!


RAWRPERIOR!

[Jenigmat]

I hate to nitpick, but Rhyperior only has 6 weaknesses.

Though I agree with you. The hardest part about using Rhyperior for me is the fact that Rhyperior and both Hippowdon and Tyranitar share a lot of key weaknesses. While Rhyperior can easily tank a lot of even super effective hits, it because a lot easier for something like Skymin to gain a critical advantage by having a huge advantage over a third of your team. Though I can attest to the strengths of your Substitute set; I used something similar once and it caught many teams off guard. People are so used to dismissing Rhyperior that they don't realise that the pre-DP hype had a reason behind it: fantastic stats and a great ability with the Sandstorm boost is just amazing.

[lati0s]

rhyperoir is a beast with trick romm but without it he's rather meh he just has too many weakness even with solid rock surfs hurt, usually a OHKO and shaymins seed flare will always OHKO

[Venom]

It's a pretty good pokemon, I can say it because of the testing I have done, Rhyperior under sand is a awesome tank, despite his weaknesses. And I have been using that defensive core for about months, having great success with it, but I guess somebody else figured it out already :(

[Bologo]

Heh, cool thread CM, I know you've been using this guy for a long time, and Rhyperior is awesome.

For anyone doubting Rhyperior's Special Defensive abilities under a sandstorm, check this calculation out:

339 SpA Skymin's Seed Flare vs. Max HP/Max SDef Rhyperior w/Sandstorm: (87.79% - 104.38%)

Though it is not guaranteed survival, just the thought of something like Rhyperior taking a 4x weak 120 BP STAB move from Skymin and even having a chance is incredible. Don't underestimate Solid Rock, it is the reason that this is possible.

[lati0s]

i run life orb skymin so your dead

but yeah that is impressive

[Bogmire]

I tried using rhyperior recently and am pretty impressed with it as a tank. its defenses and ability are so ridiculous that impish max/max rhyperior has a slight chance at surviving an adamant +5 earthquake from tyranitar. it also survives a SD jolly LO close combat from lucario.

[dr4g0n]

Physically, Rhyperior is quite the tank, but I would still advise against using it as a general tank. The only special attacks it can take with ease is the electric ones.

[Peachfuzz]

This thread reminds me of the pre-DP Rhyperior hype threads that made it look unstoppable once the Special Defense boost to rock types in Sandstorm was introduced. Those threads are fun to read.

The Substitute set looks like an absolutely amazing wall breaker. Walls with weak attack stats can't do a thing if Toxic Spikes aren't up. Earthquakes from physical walls who don't invest in attack EVs don't do much, and Skarmory takes heavy damage from Swords Danced Stone Edges. It also outspeeds most of those walls. One of the best Tyranitar switch-ins too, short of Hidden Power [Grass].

Of course, since the beginning of DP, haven't we concluded that, although on paper it looks unstoppable, in practice it fails, as the metagame is too fast and too hard hitting for it?

[Stathakis]

imo since every team I make ends up with cbazumarill and sdluke and the like I never really liked rhyperior, simply because I never had trouble with it. if I were to run a set, it would prolly be rockpolish, though, seeing as usually people rely on outspeeding the behemoth to beat it, making the rp set thoroughly evil to today's metagame. I'd probably never even consider the subsd set lol.

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I've been using a Sub/EQ/Rock Slide/Fire Punch set and it basically lets you rape Bronzongs and Forretress with still keeping a Sub up. It can come in on Scizor too.

Thought that might be of some interest :)

[Darkmalice]

Rhyperior is awesome. But he has two main problems.

To be a special wall, he needs SS support. But he shares common weaknesses with TTar and Hippowdon.

Very tough competition. As a physical wall, there's Gliscor and Hippowdon with self-recovery, Donphan with Rapid Spin, Swampert with better typing. As a physical attacker, there's Scizor who can SD and still attack first, Metagross who can Rock Polish and reach higher stats, and Tar with CB Pursuit.

I find the set with the least competition is CB Rhyperior, because only Medicham and Ramparados outmatch him in Att., and they're so much more vulnerable than Rhyperior.

[cim]

I fail to see why I should use Polish Rhyperior over Metagross, personally, who can reach higher speeds with Adamant (and thus more Attack). I guess the typing's different, but Metagross generally does better as "bulky thing that goes fast all of the sudden" for me.

[Peachfuzz]

Even though it probably is easier to get a Rock Polish with Metagross, Rhyperior's STAB Earthquake/Stone Edge/whatever combo are a hell of a lot better than Metagross' Meteor Mash/Earthquake/whatever combo. Although Metagross does reach much higher speeds, so it's not as vulnerable to Choice Scarf revengers (and max speed base 130's).

[SoT]

I've recently started using the Sub SD Rhyperior mentioned above. I was iffy about it at first, but after using it for a while, and getting a feel for it, I believe it's one of the best decisions I have ever made. The raw power this guy brings to the table is amazing, and after a SD, not to many things stand a chance. Yeah, everyone says he's to slow, but that's what I like about him. You don't know how many Skarms I have killed while they roost on me because of this lack of speed. Yeah you can say that is what hurts it the most, but that's what I believe is the beauty of using this guy. Not anyone can use this, it actually takes quite amount of skill, when to set up, when to attack, when to sub stall. It's all risk and reward, and that's why I beleive it's my kind of pokemon. =D

All in all, I believe he is a very good pokemon, in should be given some thought when building teams. He is a great offensive threat, and is one hell of a defensive monster. Rhyperior for OU!

[Lee]

I've been using a Sub/EQ/Rock Slide/Fire Punch set and it basically lets you rape Bronzongs and Forretress with still keeping a Sub up.

Heh, I used to run that set a lot but I used Megahorn over Fire Punch. Megahorn easily OHKO's Celebi and deals hefty damage to shit like Cresselia and Slowbro. You'll still always beat standard Bronzong and Forretress as Gyro Ball doesn't break your Sub and they'll be easily worn down by repeated attacks.

I used to love it because people would always try to beat Rhyperior with prediction. They'd expect me to EQ and throw out their Gengar or Celebi, and promptly shit themself when Rhyperior throws up a Substitute and proceeds to OHKO them from behind it. Good fun. :)

I've never used one of those SpD heavy versions but I remember once when I hit a Rhyperior with Hidden Power Grass from my Jolteon, foolishly expecting to get an OHKO or at least do 80-90%. I shit myself when it did less than 40%. I actually ran off to Team Builder to check I hadn't accidentally given him HP Ice or something. That guy is frigging tough.

A few nitpicks;

- Timid Heatran's Earth Power is a 3HKO.
- Zapdos Hidden Power Ice won't 2HKO Rhyperior most of the time.

It's pretty safe to assume that if a SE 90BP attack from 130 SpA is a 3HKO then a SE 70BP attack from 125 SpA probably won't 2HKO. ?_? I assume you mean HP Grass.

- Cresselia that rely on Rest / Sleep Talk / Ice Beam / Charge Beam won't break the Substitute. Only those Cresselia with Grass Knot and Psychic can break it.

How is it possible that a Cresselia with Ice Beam is unable to break his sub whilst a Cresselia with Psychic is capable of doing so?

[X-Act]

Rhyperior's usage has increased from September to October, and, as far as I know, its usage was only a little bit lower than the quota to be OU in October.

[Thorns]

This thread will spark new Rhyperior usage.

But I was using Rhyperior for as long as I can remember anyway. He's an absolute beast under Trick Room.

[Shinryu]

I thought it was proven long ago that Rhyperior was overhyped...

Personally, I think he's best at CB with a simple 252 Atk/252 HP, just throw him into something he resists and let him OHKO or dent whatever comes in. With Rock Polish, he could probably do what Agiligross of old did.

[Chou Toshio]

The first post pretty much mentioned my only criticism, that being that I would feel awkward running Rhyperior and Tyranitar on the same team (I'm not about to use Hippowdon any time soon).

Outside that though I have to agree that Rhyperior is a terrific pokemon. I've faced the substitute set before and despite having Gyarados, Mild Infernape (grass knot does not 1hko), Flygon (who resists both stabs) and Scizor on my team, I'd say 75% of the times I've fought it I had to sacrifice a pokemon to it before taking it down. It's that tough.

[Megiddo]

Originally Posted by Fat Lee

How is it possible that a Cresselia with Ice Beam is unable to break his sub whilst a Cresselia with Psychic is capable of doing so?

Without calculating anything my guess would be a STAB Psychic is more powerful then a Solid Rock Ice beam (even though it's SE).

Unless this was an oversight?

[Little Green Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fat Megiddo

Without calculating anything my guess would be a STAB Psychic is more powerful then a Solid Rock Ice beam (even though it's SE).

Unless this was an oversight?

I think there's some confusion over how much Solid Rock reduces damage by. If it's the 1/4th mentioned in the analysis, Ice Beam should do more than STAB Psychic. There was a time where it was thought to reduce damage by 1/3rd though so I can see how there might be mix-ups.

[the_artic_one]

I think he was referring to the rest/sleeptalk/grassknot/psychic set (which beats rhy) as opposed to the rest/ST/chargebeam/icebeam set (which does not).

[mien]

I've used Rhyperior for a long time on my hailteam, it can take hits surprisingly well espically from things like Tyranitar, Scizor and the like.

Mine never had any Att ev's yet it still was capable of launching the most powerfull attacks in my team

[X-Act]

Originally Posted by Fat Little Green Yoda

I think there's some confusion over how much Solid Rock reduces damage by. If it's the 1/4th mentioned in the analysis, Ice Beam should do more than STAB Psychic. There was a time where it was thought to reduce damage by 1/3rd though so I can see how there might be mix-ups.

STAB Psychic: 90 x 1.5 = 135
UnSTABbed Ice Beam: 95 x 2 (super effective) x 0.75 (Solid Rock) = 142.5

Hence Ice Beam does slightly more damage than Psychic to Rhyperior, though only by 5.6%.