Other Unethical Manipulation of CAP Polls

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DougJustDoug

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There's been more cheating uncovered in the latest CAP Art poll. In fact, there was more cheating in that poll, than any CAP poll in the past -- and we have only scratched the surface in our investigation. We will continue to work to determine the extent of the cheating and we will announce final poll results later. Look for that in the Art poll thread. The point of this thread is to expose some unethical practices that are going on, and get some feedback from the community.

In case you didn't know it -- the CAP project has identified cheated votes in the past. I believe our first discovery of cheated votes was in the Stratagem art poll. In that case, the final poll result actually overturned the initial winner, Caladbolg, and YDG's design ended up with more "legitimate" votes. In the CAP 7 art poll we discovered more cheating. However, in that case, the amount of cheating was not enough to overturn the results of the initial vote count. However, during CAP 7 we discovered that manipulation of CAP art poll results had moved to a whole new level. Perhaps it had been going on for a long time, but I first became aware of it in the CAP 7 poll.

Cheated votes are fairly simple -- a user makes one or more alternate Smogon accounts, and casts several votes for their favorite option. These votes are usually easy to discover, with the forum tools available to the mods and admins. It's tedious work to investigate, but we CAN identify certain instances of cheating of this kind. There are some ways that technically-savvy users can create undetectable alternate accounts, and we have no way to prove that such votes are cheated. With all the cheating that we have actually caught on CAP polls, it would be foolish to believe that there aren't any "undetectable alt votes" out there as well.

The latest fad to manipulate CAP art polls is the one that bothers me the most -- "recruited votes". Recruited votes are votes cast by someone not involved in the CAP project at all. They are "recruited" by someone in CAP, and they are asked to simply sign up and vote in a CAP poll. I suspect recruiting has been going on for a long time, but with CAP 7, it really became widespread. People would go on IRC, AIM, Shoddy Battle, even Facebook -- and send messages to their entire personal network of gaming friends,
"Hey, do me a favor. Please go to this website and vote for X. Thanks."
Votes cast in this manner are completely "legal". There's nothing we can do to stop it. However, I think it's unethical as hell. And, to be clear, NONE of this stuff is being orchestrated by the artists themselves. It's all happening without the knowledge or help of any of the contestants.

After CAP 7, I found out that a few different clans voted against my art because they don't like Smogon being so "elitist". Since I am a Smogon admin, they figured they would vote "against Smogon" by voting against my art. I probably got a few votes from some new Smogoners just because I am an admin -- so maybe it evened out. I dunno. I don't really care about winning or losing any of these polls, but I really hate the idea of polls be "tainted" with outright campaigning and recruiting.

But that's what it is coming to on CAP polls -- usually art polls, but I'm sure it's happened on other polls too. There are multiple behind-the-scenes efforts to manipulate poll results -- whether by outright cheating, or by "legally cheating" by recruiting votes. I don't know if there is any solution to the problem, but I want to get this issue out in the open and hear what the rest of you think. Even if there is nothing we can or should do to stop it, we need to acknowledge what is really going on. If any of you are looking at the most recent CAP 8 art poll results, and thinking that is simply the result of two good artworks garnering votes of interested CAP members -- you have your head in the sand. There's a lot more going on than that -- and we need to acknowledge it.
 

Cathy

Banned deucer.
Campaigning might be fairly easy to curb if you instated a rule like "a user needs X posts in the CAP forum in order to vote".
 

tennisace

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You can't really control clicky polls like that, and 400+ bold votes is crazy to count.
 

CyzirVisheen

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Campaigning might be fairly easy to curb if you instated a rule like "a user needs X posts in the CAP forum in order to vote".
This has been brought up many times before, but in the end we thought it'd alienate users and give an air of exclusivity that we don't necessarily want. Still, this may be the time to implement this rule...

EDIT: Agreeing with Wyverii though, it's a pretty gray area and we shouldn't be too hasty...
 
Campaigning might be fairly easy to curb if you instated a rule like "a user needs X posts in the CAP forum in order to vote".
Or maybe there's away to block certain members who haven't contributed in other parts of CAP? Dunno if thats possible or not.
 
Campaigning might be fairly easy to curb if you instated a rule like "a user needs X posts in the CAP forum in order to vote".
How many posts are we talking here? As you can see, I haven't posted much on Smogon at all, but the CAP forum caught my eye, so I decided to post a little with a few comments here and there. But I'm well aware of the rules against unnecessary posts, and sometimes I feel as though I don't have enough knowledge and experience of what goes on in the CAP process to merit anything more than the odd post in the odd topic.
 
I was just talking to CyzirVisheen about this on the server and honestly I do not think there is any satisfactory solution to these problems. Alts are against the rules in the first place so if someone wants to risk doing something that stupid just over artwork then they deserve whatever punishment they get. A prior warning about alt voting in the OP of a poll might make people think twice about doing it.

As for campaigning and recruiting, that's a grey area. Technically by voicing your support for something you're trying to get people to vote for it but at least that's to people who are interested. However any productive action such as restricting post count for voters, will only cause alienation to newcomers. This is counterproductive in the case of flavour polls in which is supposed to generate interest in the first place. It's unfair but it happens with nearly every public poll in existence and there's not much we can do.
 
Campaigning might be fairly easy to curb if you instated a rule like "a user needs X posts in the CAP forum in order to vote".
This has been brought up many times before, but in the end we thought it'd alienate users and give an air of exclusivity that we don't necessarily want. Still, this may be the time to implement this rule...

EDIT: Agreeing with Wyverii though, it's a pretty gray area...

I don't think that's fair. I may be just new here. But I signed up with smogon just to take part the in CAP project. Its what drew me here. I think by excluding people it prevents people that are new to the metagame from a facet to learn about it. Granted there are other ways to learn the metagame, but for people like me who believe that in order to understand something you need to take it apart and put it back together again, it stops us.
 

CyzirVisheen

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I don't think that's fair. I may be just new here. But I signed up with smogon just to take part the in CAP project. Its what drew me here. I think by excluding people it prevents people that are new to the metagame from a facet to learn about it. Granted there are other ways to learn the metagame, but for people like me who believe that in order to understand something you need to take it apart and put it back together again, it stops us.
Heh, people like you are the reason we've declined on using that rule before, and why I'm still hesitant now. I did only say 'may' after all.
 
Also, depending on what this hypothetical post minimum is, what's stopping these people from waltzing into Firebot and posting a random, vaguely on-topic line or two in every thread on the first page, posting a comment of "This art rocks!" in every thread on the first page of Smeargle's Studio, asking a question in the thread in Stark Mountain and then posting a second-rate RMT in the RMT forum?
 
What about PM'ing everyone that voted a survey? I believe that could extract some info if it asks questions like:

Why did you vote for X?
Did anyone convince you to vote for X? If so, who?
Did you receive a PM from another site such as Facebook, Shoddy Battle etc. before you voted?
If so, did that PM tell you to vote for X? If not, did it tell you to vote otherwise?

Things like that, except MAYBE worded differently.
 
What about PM'ing everyone that voted a survey? I believe that could extract some info if it asks questions like:

Why did you vote for X?
Did anyone convince you to vote for X? If so, who?
Did you receive a PM from another site such as Facebook, Shoddy Battle etc. before you voted?
If so, did that PM tell you to vote for X? If not, did it tell you to vote otherwise?

Things like that, except MAYBE worded differently.
What's stopping them from lying?

Why did you vote for X? Because I think it looks cool.
Did anyone convince you to vote for X? No.
Did you receive a PM yadda yadda yadda? No.

That's how easy it would be.
 

Matthew

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What about PM'ing everyone that voted a survey? I believe that could extract some info if it asks questions like:

Why did you vote for X?
Did anyone convince you to vote for X? If so, who?
Did you receive a PM from another site such as Facebook, Shoddy Battle etc. before you voted?
If so, did that PM tell you to vote for X? If not, did it tell you to vote otherwise?

Things like that, except MAYBE worded differently.
That would be a terrible mess and would take an extreme amount of time. I have been tempted to say we should make a third party poll, but now that I've thought about it more, it would be very difficult for us to stop this from happening there as well.
 
This is really unfortunate, and unfair to the artists, especially if they "win", and have it be recalled.

I agree alts are completely banned so thats an "easy" fix.

But as others have said before, recruiting is a harder matter.

I wish I had more insight, but basically just agreeing with whats been said.
 
Ridiculous that people would cheat on something like Art, and I bet the idiots cheating won't even use the damn pokemon anyway.

If this a problem then is it possible to have a voting sub-forum where you need at least 15-20 posts in the CAP forum to be eligible to post and hence vote in? I'm not an expert on vbulletin but is it possible that when you make a certain number of posts in the forum you can get added to some secret CAP voter group.
 
that is not what is important at this moment. what is important is to find a way to lessen the amount of cheating.
but honestly, i don't see the problem with asking for a requirement to vote. if there can be a requirement to vote for suspects, then why not here?
Because when you are voting for suspect you want people who have a good iea of how the metagame works and valuable opinions as to how introducing a new pokemon into the metagame would effect it.

The best thing about the art process of CAP is that it brings in new people who are intrigued by the idea of creating and getting hands on instead of just learning through example.

By limiting who can vote on the most popular part of the CAP process you would be scaring new users away.
 
Campaigning might be fairly easy to curb if you instated a rule like "a user needs X posts in the CAP forum in order to vote".
Actually, now that I mentioned it, there's a key flaw here too (the whole newbie alienation isn't it, but still worth a mention). This doesn't stop the guys from turning around and telling the more 'experienced' participants to vote for X just because they feel like it. Not that they're likely too, but I'm just saying this.
 
There's been more cheating uncovered in the latest CAP Art poll. In fact, there was more cheating in that poll, than any CAP poll in the past -- and we have only scratched the surface in our investigation.
assuming this is only referring to (detectable) alt accounts, isn't it a bit odd that the cheating has gone up since previous polls where users were banned for cheating? The way I see it it must be people who are either very new and have no knowledge of the possibilities of being banned, or people who just do not value their posting privileges at all. In case one I think that a simple warning in the OP of every poll might be able to solve must of the problem, and possibly a message about how recruiting is highly frowned upon. Case two becomes very difficult to solve, however.
 
Good for bringing this up. It's disdainful when people "cheat" on the polls like this, especially when some artists have worked so hard on their submissions. Some cases of unethical conduct are actually quite obvious.
 

KoA

Sorry, I thought anteaters were real
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Guess I was right be be wary of the insurgence of May 09ers.

Anywho, there will always be some form of cheating or unethical conduct in these polls, that just comes with the territory.

Recruiting votes also happen here in the forums, especially in the initial art threads where users who express their support for a design will try to rally others for their cause. This ain't necessarily a bad thing and even gives a bit of a confidence boost to the artist.

Having it happen on another site though just strikes me as sneaky and they probably aren't even bandwagoning for the right reasons.

So yeah, I've become accustomed to taking poll results with a grain of salt, as every pool of water is bound to have impurities in it.

(For those going through the lists looking for alts, try looking into new accounts made within the past few months, as alt cheaters will create new accounts a few months in advance thinking it will throw suspicions away from them when they use them to vote.)
 
We could apply a rule that you would need a certain amount of posts in the CAP part of the forum to vote.
 
If such a rule were to be installed, I think it'd be most useful to say that someone has to has registered before the first piece of art was posted in the first art thread of that CaP.

I think recruiting is quite a lot harder if you have to tell a large group of people (especially ones you don't know) "Register there, and then in a couple of days come back and vote for an artwork, except I don't know yet which artwork".
 
If such a rule were to be installed, I think it'd be most useful to say that someone has to has registered before the first piece of art was posted in the first art thread of that CaP.

I think recruiting is quite a lot harder if you have to tell a large group of people (especially ones you don't know) "Register there, and then in a couple of days come back and vote for an artwork, except I don't know yet which artwork".
this still would not solve the issue of recruiting from other boards. there are people who are on smogon who are not actively involved in the CAP process.
 
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