Legendary Dragon- Rayquaza Discussion Thread

DD or Not DD- That Is the Question

Rayquaza is a common sight in uber battles. Many can attest to the times a once-dragon danced Rayquaza has ripped through their team with outrage, or a +2 Extreme Speed has felled their weakened pokemon. As setup sweepers, Rayquaza's Dragon Dance and Swords Dance sets are nearly unmatched- except by each other.

As a point of reference, here are the standard sets:

Dragon Dance

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Jolly
32 HP/ 252 atk/ 8 sp def/ 216 spe

Dragon Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Overheat


Swords Dance

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Adamant
252 atk/ 4 sp def/ 252 spe

Swords Dance
Extreme Speed
Dragon Claw/ Waterfall
Earthquake/ Overheat


So, the purpose of this thread is to have the community post and discuss the opinions of its members on which of these destructive sets is superior, and what makes it so.

I think that they are both good, but for different teams. The two sets have (for the most part) different checks (nothing is actually a counter).

For example the DD set is beaten by scarf Palkia and the the SD set is beaten by a faster Dialga. It really depends on what your team needs though. What set of counters does your team handle the best? this might be the one you might want to use. Conversely, if you are using a Heavy Offense team you may want to thing that walls you the most to dictate which one you put on your team. For example, a team with SD Lucario on it already is walled by scarf dialga, which means that you would want the SD one so that you could double up on it.

While it is true that they both require different teammates, and have different checks (as you said, not counters), we can still consider how many checks each has, how common they are in the current metagame, how much team support each needs, and how many pokemon each is likely to plow through if it has successfully set up.

For instance, while IMO dragon dance ray would be more effective, scarf palkia is very common as of late. Outrage also has a 2 turn locking effect and subsequent confusion, making it unlikely dragon dance rayquaza will ever give you a perfect sweep.

On the other hand, swords dance rayquaza's lack of speed hurts it greatly, and in my experience (i'm no expert), it is much harder to successfully set up.

As you can see, each set, while different, has certain fundamental qualities which can be assessed, and that is the purpose of this thread.

V97 said:

While it is true that they both require different teammates, and have different checks (as you said, not counters), we can still consider how many checks each has, how common they are in the current metagame, how much team support each needs, and how many pokemon each is likely to plow through if it has successfully set up.

For instance, while IMO dragon dance ray would be more effective, scarf palkia is very common as of late. Outrage also has a 2 turn locking effect and subsequent confusion, making it unlikely dragon dance rayquaza will ever give you a perfect sweep.

On the other hand, swords dance rayquaza's lack of speed hurts it greatly, and in my experience (i'm no expert), it is much harder to successfully set up.


As you can see, each set, while different, has certain fundamental qualities which can be assessed, and that is the purpose of this thread.

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DD ray, and Sd ray both use wobbuffett to set up, and as Anachronism as stated, Dialga checks SD Ray easily, especially Scarfed Dialga. DD ray does have trouble with Scarf Palkia, but with lots of entry hazards, and a boosted Extremespeed, Rayquaza will slay Palkia. DD Rayquaza is meant to sweep late game when everything is so weakened, that Outrage will kill anything that crosses Ray's path, and Palkia, will be dead by then. Sd Ray's biggest problems are both Impish Groudon and Scarf Dialga, Groudon can wall you all day with 2 wishes, and Dialga is faster, and extremespeed does jack shit. You also forgot to mention Mixquaza, who is an excellent lure, and koes most of Ray's counters, such as Lugia and Groudon. It also aids in eliminating those physical, so that other boosting sweeper such as Garchomp can freely sweep.

I agree with tripe there, I think MixQuaza is more versatile set. It doesn't need to set up, it is somewhat unexpected since most ppl expect the SD set (few ppl run the DD set nowadays) and because of scarf Palkia, and it opens the path for a late game sweeper. I use Outrage instead of Brick Break tho.

In the last few days, I was using a scarved Jirachi, and I can say that it`s truly a counter to both sets.

Mixquaza isn't a sweeper though, it's a wallbreaker, meant to make it easier for others to sweep. Unless someone disagrees, I don't think that it's meant to be examined in the same light as DD and SD ray.

Another important check to both sets is scarfed gengar. It is immune to extreme speed, forcing SD ray to use a non-priority move, and it's faster than either SD ray unboosted or DD ray with +1 speed.

In all, i think that the DD ray set is more effective, despite the number of scarfed palkias running around. If i'm correct, its +1 outrage is far stronger than a +2 extreme speed, and the +1 speed, for the most part, compensates for the lack of priority. Of course, i'm no expert.

And uchiha, do you mean a counter or a check? jirachi is horribly vulnerable to earthquake and overheat.

Gengar isn't a good pokemon in ubers though, at least not with a scarf, it gets pursuit by the omnipresent Scizor just like in Ou.
As for Rayquaza, the mixed set and the waterfall set are probably the best at the moment, because groudon's usage is rising alot and he will give standard Ray a tough time to sweep.

I find Dragon Dance to be the hardest for my team to handle, though only slightly. Lugia beats Swords Dance rather easily, but Dragon Dance can take down Lugia with an Outrage but locking yourself in is never a good thing :)

It doesn`t matter, Jirachi is a probably the best check, one that`s viable in Ubers.

RaikouLover said:

I find Dragon Dance to be the hardest for my team to handle, though only slightly. Lugia beats Swords Dance rather easily, but Dragon Dance can take down Lugia with an Outrage but locking yourself in is never a good thing :)

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Yeah, I myself find it harder to defend against DD Ray

Imo a swords dancing Rayquaza is nearly better than a dragon dancing Rayquaza because Swords Dance makes per round +100% on Attack Stat. This could be realy good seeing an example:
Rayquaza is switched in into an Earthquake of Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Your opponent have to switch out Tyranitar, so you have the chance to use Swords Dance.

Now it is the time to use your Extremspeed to kill your opponent!

That may be true, but you can also dragon dance on the switch. One could argue that dragon dancing is mroe effective, because STAB + 1 Outrage is stronger than +2 extreme speed.

I think something important to keep in mind is the amount of team support each one needs. Swords dance rayquaza seems to be stopped bya a lot more walls in the Uber metagame, which makes a wallbreaker very useful. Dragon Dancing rayquaza doesn't necessarily need a wallbreaking teammate.

On the other hand, outrage confuses the user, so dragon dancing rayquaza often (this is also just in my experience) needs a backup sweeper or cleaner to finish the job.

in the current state of the metagame DD quaza is better. For some reason, however, every seems set on using SD quaza. Since it's not very effective its usage is dropping every month.

Ultimifier, i agree, but why do you say that?

I think the best set depends on the way you play.
For basis:
The DD set provides a +1 Attack and +1 Speed boost.
The SD set provides a +2 Attack boost.
From the way I see it, either one of the boosts can be helpful, depending on the situation that you are in.
My thinking is that Extremespeed HAS to be used on the SD set, because you are't getting the speed boost like from the DD set.
My opinion is that the DD set is better, from looking at current trends in the metagame.

I'd like to bring everyone's attention to an often-overlooked set: Choice Band Rayquaza.

Rayquaza@Choice Band
Jolly|252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP
1. Dragon Claw
2. Earthquake
3. Extremespeed
4. Outrage

The Jolly nature is to outspeed all base 90s as well as to speed tie or better with all other Rayquazas. Max Attack and Speed are obvious, while the 6 HP is leftover. The moves are straightforward as well: Dragon Claw is the main STAB move, Outrage is for beastly power to OHKO or 2HKO practically everything with the downside of probably getting KOd yourself once you use it, Earthquake is for coverage on Steels (Dialga being the most important target), and Extremespeed is for awesome priority to finish off weakened 'mons. While SD and DD Ray both get basically one chance to do their thing before dying, CB Ray is a hit-and-run sweeper that packs immediate power as well as good revenge-killing capabilities. It was a key member of the team that got me to the top (non-glitched) spot on the ladder back in August, and I wouldn't ever replace it for CB Chomp or a different Ray set. Try it out sometime - I promise you won't be disappointed!

@Deep thought: I personally think that if your going to use that set garchomp is better for it. CB(insert dragon) is really good for ripping holes in physical walls and allowing another dragon to sweep. Its much more effective yo use a Choice band Garchomp, Palkia, or Dialga because that way you can remove their bulky steel, phyiscal wall allowing DD Quaza an easier time to sweep.

@V97. SDrayquaza used to be the best pokemon in the tier. Then everyone started using choice scarf dialga as their counter. Then everyone started using wobb to lure in CS dialga, trap it, then sweep with rayquaza later. Now every team pretty much has 2 checks to him so that he cant sweep.

Think of this as scarf dialga vs SD quaza and scarf cresselia vs SD chomp. They are both 100% counters to each of the respective threats, except scarf dialga is good. Even if quaza did not learn SD, scarf dialga would still be used on plenty of teams. Its because the pokemon that check SD quaza are very good, so even if your opponent isnt running SD quaza they are still useful.

There are less of these checks againts DD quaza, which is why he is better now. CS palkia is easy to weaken, one time switching into kyogre and hes in ES range for DD quaza. Scarf dialga is outsped and OHKOd and lugia can die from a +1 Outrage after SR damage

ultimifier said:

@Deep thought: I personally think that if your going to use that set garchomp is better for it.

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How did I know that someone was going to say that . OK, if you haven't used it, don't say that Garchomp is better, because it's not. Here is what Choice Band Rayquaza has that Choice Band Garchomp doesn't:

1. Priority. An 80 BP priority move coming from 598 Attack does an amazing job of picking off stuff. It's actually more powerful than the standard Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch (511 Attack), which is really saying something.
2. Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunity. Sure, CBChomp has a 2x resistance instead of a 2x weakness to Stealth Rock, but it does a poorer job against stall than CBRay because it is affected by Toxic Spikes. (Plus we all know how easy it is to stop a stall team's Groudon from getting rocks up if you use a lead Mew ).
3. Ability to switch into Kyogre (unless it uses Ice Beam or Thunder Wave as you switch). Garchomp CANNOT switch into Kyogre, but Rayquaza CAN because of Air Lock and its 2x resistance to Water. Sure, you're in for a rough time if you switch into a full health Water Spout, but you'll survive it and be able to dish out the pain before going down. On offensive teams that generally have a tough time switching into Kyogre, CBRay can be quite useful - it is the first thing I would go to against the leviathan when using my Shadows and Dust team if there wasn't anything ripe for sacrificing.
4. Surprise factor. I've only seen one other person (drcossack) use CBRay on the Uber ladder to date. Since SD and DD sets are the most common, with MixQuaza being fairly rare, people don't expect to take immediate, heavy damage when switching into Rayquaza. You'd be surprised how many Garchomps, Palkias, Dialgas, Groudons, Scizors, Giratina-Os, etc. can be taken out by this thing because, to take a line from a Smogonite whose user name I can't remember, NO ONE EXPECTS THE CHOICE BAND RAYQUAZA INQUISITION. (was originally Jirachi I think)
5. Power. A minor thing, but CBRay's Dragon-type moves are a tad more powerful than CBChomp's - although in a metagame such as Ubers, every bit counts.
6. EDIT: Another minor thing that I thought of - due to Air Lock, CBRay can be used to check Kingdra in the rain, while CBChomp cannot! I have used this fact to my advantage before.

I seem to recall posting a shorter version of this rant in Rayquaza's description from my RMT...oh well, maybe now this set will finally start catching on.

tl;dr - Seeing is believing when it comes to Choice Band Rayquaza. Don't be a hater until you've used it yourself.

EDIT: And someone else posts about how Garchomp is supposedly better for this set. No theorymon allowed! (this goes for the user too, I don't want to have to wade through huge piles of text in this discussion lol)

Deep Thought said:

I'd like to bring everyone's attention to an often-overlooked set: Choice Band Rayquaza.

Rayquaza@Choice Band
Jolly|252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 Defense/Special Defense
1. Dragon Claw
2. Earthquake
3. Extremespeed
4. Outrage

The Jolly nature is to outspeed all base 90s as well as to speed tie or better with all other Rayquazas. Max Attack and Speed are obvious, while the 6 Defense/Special Defense is leftover. IIRC not putting the last 6 EVs in HP lets Rayquaza switch into Stealth Rock 4 times without dying, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The moves are straightforward as well: Dragon Claw is the main STAB move, Outrage is for beastly power to OHKO or 2HKO practically everything with the downside of probably getting KOd yourself once you use it, Earthquake is for coverage on Steels (Dialga being the most important target), and Extremespeed is for awesome priority to finish off weakened 'mons. While SD and DD Ray both get basically one chance to do their thing before dying, CB Ray is a hit-and-run sweeper that packs immediate power as well as good revenge-killing capabilities. It was a key member of the team that got me to the top (non-glitched) spot on the ladder back in August, and I wouldn't ever replace it for CB Chomp or a different Ray set. Try it out sometime - I promise you won't be disappointed!

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unless you are coming in on an EQ i don't see how are you switching ray that often, not to mention that everytime you switch is 25% less hp. Chomp on the other side is resistant to SR, has better speed and stab EQ.

@ Ultimifier:Hmmm. I've always been under the impression that scarf palkia was more common than scarf dialga.

@ Deep Thought: Nonsweeper variants of rayquaza have always been hard for me to use, because of their lack of speed. I grant you choice band extreme speed could be useful, but choice band ray isn't even meant to sweep, and this thread is supposed to be discussing the best sweeping sets for ray- specifically, the choice between swords dancd and dragon dance.
A scenario where Ray is more useful as a choice bander than garchomp would be useful though. :)

Edit: You gave one as i typed this lol
anyway, the kyogre thing seems a little suspect. Like you said, Kyogre can twave or ice beam, and scarfed variants are going to 2hko with a full power water spout, i believe. Plus, i don't think any of thhose things are as useful as garchomp's STAB earthquake. I could be wrong, though.

As far as Rayquaza goes, Swords Dance and Dragon Dance are both obscenely deadly. As it says in the guide, Rayquaza is practically the reason to carry a Steel-type in Ubers. Anyways, I think my favorite Rayquaza set is the mixed one. It not only catches many by surprise, but it also has the possibility to rip through many stall teams (which are really annoying). Furthermore, less people prepare for it, unlike with SD or DD. You just have to get used to the fact that its more of a hit-and-run set than a set-up set.

And uchiha, do you mean a counter or a check? jirachi is horribly vulnerable to earthquake and overheat.

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Well, nothing can counter Rayquaza, but Jirachi comes close. Assuming a tabula rasa outlook on the battle, no Rayquaza user in his right mind will open with Earthquake or Overheat, because giving Latias/Latios and other dudes free switch-ins is a horrible idea. The problem is that ScarfJirachi isn't good for much else.

I know this shouldn`t be meant to discuss scarfrachi, but its not bad, it can trick away its scarf defeat Rayquaza, in general it`s played like a scarved Mewtwo.

Uchiha said:

I know this shouldn`t be meant to discuss scarfrachi, but its not bad, it can trick away its scarf defeat Rayquaza, in general it`s played like a scarved Mewtwo.

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Scarf mewtwo plays differently, as he's much faster, and isn't as easily set up on. He can also revenge more things that Jirachi can't, such as Scarf Darkrai, or even Scarf Skymin, +2 Groudon, and Scarf Garchomp. Jirachi is mainly used for his typing, and decent speed. Mewtwo can also suicide with selfdestruct, while Jirachi can at best trick it's scarf away, which unless you're facing a set-up sweeper or a stall team, tricking a scarf away isn't very wise.

@ultimifier: DD-Rayquaza must use Outrage against Dialga, Groudon and Lugia, and Dialga could even live an +1 Outrage with some evs invested in its defenses. Also a scarfed Palkia cannot be koed by extreemspeed, nor can a scarfed Mewtwo. Extreemspeed is a rather bad move on DD-Quaza, because it will simply lack the power to do enough damage. I'd rather use Dragon Claw, Outrage and EQ so you don't have to lock yourself into Outrage when your facing giratina-o or other Quazas.
I think DD has its place but is by no means better than the SD-set, which can outspeed standard Lugia when it is Jolly and ko with Outrage too, as well as koing either Groudon with Aquatail(although the bulkiest Groudon will survive) or Dialga/Jirachi with EQ. Overheat can be chosen if one is very paranoiac about Skarmory and Shedinja. Also a +2 extremspeed is powerful enough to ko a scarfed Palkia after sr damage, when this Palkia is hasty it has no chance at all to live.

To sum up: DD-Quaza is utterly walled by Groudon and still revenged by Palkia and scarfed Jirachi, cannot beat all Dialgas and has to use Outrage most of the time.
SD-Quaza must run Jolly to be effectiv, must use Outrage against Lugia, but can chose either EQ or Waterfall/Aquatail as a last move to deal with its checks. Also extremspeed can kill many scarfers, therefore you don't have to use Outrage like the DD-set, which as I said should have Claw AND Outrage to avoid this situation.

@tripe: you cannot compare scarfed Mewtwo to scarfed Jirachi, they fullfill different purposes. Jirachi is good to revenge Dragons like Lati@s and SD-Quaza, while Mewtwo is a good option to revenge DD-Quaza, Darkrai, CM Mewtwo and rock polish Groudon.
Also Tricking a scarf or exploding is a last option if you have nothing left to stop a sweep, a good example for Jirachi would be BU-Dialga that have gotten to many Bulk ups due to a misplay of yours.