Legendary Dragon- Rayquaza Discussion Thread

[thechocolatebunny]

Those calculations don't even include Life Orb which the majority of DDray use.

A Jolly +1 Life Orb Earthquake does around a minimum of 97.5% to max Hp/Def Bold Dialga. SR down and dialga's gone. Adamant doesn't even need SR down.

 

[twash]

Time to start posting around here I guess!

Here's a lead set I have been running for a while.

Rayquaza @ Focus Sash
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Naive nature (+Spe, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Extremespeed
Against the top 10 leads:

Deoxys-e - Draco Meteor and ExtremeSpeed will KO.

Groudon - Rayquaza outspeeds and 2HKOes 252 HP / 0 SDef Groudon with Draco Meteor.

Darkrai - The best thing to do here is to ExtremeSpeed and switch, or just switch. Darkrai is mostly annoying due to Dark Void.

Deoxys-f - ExtremeSpeed twice.

Kyogre - Draco Meteor followed by ExtremeSpeed does a good amount of damage to 252 HP / 0 (S)Def Kyogre, 75% on average. If it isn't running HP, it takes 88% on average (which means it can't switch if you get SR down).

Dialga - Draco Meteor followed by Earthquake will KO 252 HP / 0 (S)Def versions.

Mew - Lead Mew are less worrying because sometimes they Taunt (expecting Dragon Dance or Swords Dance possibly). Draco Meteor does 61%-71%, and 30%-35% on the second. It's possible but really not guaranteed. It's likely Mew will either U-turn or Explode on the second, though, so sometimes using Earthquake is better. Rayquaza comes out on top thanks to Focus Sash, basically.

Shaymin-S - Flamethrower and ExtremeSpeed will KO Shaymin-S. The only threat to this is if Shaymin-S gets two flinches, finishing Rayquaza on the third (31%~ of Shaymin-S coming out on top).

Mewtwo - Draco Meteor and ExtremeSpeed will KO 4 HP / 0 (S)Def versions.

Forretress - Flamethrower.

As you can see, only 2 of the top 10 leads can consistently beat Rayquaza. I've mostly been running this set because my team has tons of checks to Darkrai and Kyogre, so generally it's fine for myself at least.

The main reason I used Rayquaza, though, is because it can come in mid-game very often. Deoxys-e, Groudon, Deoxys-f, Dialga, and Mew are the only ones able to set up Stealth Rock on Rayquaza. Interestingly, 4 of these 5 are 2HKOed by Rayquaza. Because of this they get an ultimatium: bring Rayquaza to 1% and get no Stealth Rock, or use Stealth Rock and leave Rayquaza with plenty of health. Either way, it often allows Rayquaza to come in mid-game and spam a quick turn of Draco Meteor, or use ExtremeSpeed against any annoying low HP Pokemon (Darkrai, Latias, Garchomp, etc). Against the ones who don't set up Stealth Rock, the player just needs to predict when to switch in Rayquaza safely (ie. don't let the opponent set up Stealth Rock without getting Rayquaza into play).

Just thought I'd share this awesome lead - it's been serving me well.

 

[V97]

The prospect of lead rayquaza is interesting. On that subject, could there be a viable lead that focuses on setting up DD or SD?

 

[ultimifier]

Here's how i would recommend changing the set to make it more effective (IMO)

Time to start posting around here I guess!

Here's a lead set I have been running for a while.

Rayquaza @ Focus Sash
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 4 Spe
??? my bad nature (+SpA / - SpD)
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Extremespeed
Against the top 10 leads:

Deoxys-e - Draco Meteor and ExtremeSpeed will KO.

Groudon - Rayquaza outspeeds and 2HKOes 252 HP / 0 SDef Groudon with Draco Meteor.

Darkrai - The best thing to do here is to ExtremeSpeed and switch, or just switch. Darkrai is mostly annoying due to Dark Void.

Deoxys-f - ExtremeSpeed twice.

Kyogre - Draco Meteor followed by ExtremeSpeed does a good amount of damage to 252 HP / 0 (S)Def Kyogre, 75% on average. If it isn't running HP, it takes 88% on average (which means it can't switch if you get SR down).

Dialga -Earthquake + Earthquake will KO. (Too lazy to run calcs but EQ + ExtremeSpeed might even be able to kill if using a +Atk nature, which would be very good.)

Mew - Lead Mew are less worrying because sometimes they Taunt (expecting Dragon Dance or Swords Dance possibly). Draco Meteor does 61%-71%, and 30%-35% on the second. It's possible but really not guaranteed. It's likely Mew will either U-turn or Explode on the second, though, so sometimes using Earthquake is better. Rayquaza comes out on top thanks to Focus Sash, basically.

Shaymin-S - Flamethrower and ExtremeSpeed will KO Shaymin-S. The only threat to this is if Shaymin-S gets two flinches, finishing Rayquaza on the third (31%~ of Shaymin-S coming out on top).

Mewtwo - Draco Meteor and ExtremeSpeed will KO 4 HP / 0 (S)Def versions.

Forretress - Flamethrower.

As you can see, only 2 of the top 10 leads can consistently beat Rayquaza. I've mostly been running this set because my team has tons of checks to Darkrai and Kyogre, so generally it's fine for myself at least.

The main reason I used Rayquaza, though, is because it can come in mid-game very often. Deoxys-e, Groudon, Deoxys-f, Dialga, and Mew are the only ones able to set up Stealth Rock on Rayquaza. Interestingly, 4 of these 5 are 2HKOed by Rayquaza. Because of this they get an ultimatium: bring Rayquaza to 1% and get no Stealth Rock, or use Stealth Rock and leave Rayquaza with plenty of health. Either way, it often allows Rayquaza to come in mid-game and spam a quick turn of Draco Meteor, or use ExtremeSpeed against any annoying low HP Pokemon (Darkrai, Latias, Garchomp, etc). Against the ones who don't set up Stealth Rock, the player just needs to predict when to switch in Rayquaza safely (ie. don't let the opponent set up Stealth Rock without getting Rayquaza into play).

Just thought I'd share this awesome lead - it's been serving me well.

Why all the speed? Not much sits between 226 and 319 in this metagame (ESPECIALLY LEADS) so i really feel that the speed is uneeded. The extra 10% in SpA and 20% in Atk will really help deal extra damage as now instead of 75 average on kyogre you will be doing 85% average on 252/0 kyogres and 2HKOing 4/0 (scarf) versions.

Just my two cents

 

[V97]

One thing i just noticed is, if deoxys-A attacks first, then its extreme speed will outspeed ray's, so that may be another lead that beats rayquaza, regardless of the EVs.

 

[twash]

Why all the speed? Not much sits between 226 and 319 in this metagame (ESPECIALLY LEADS) so i really feel that the speed is uneeded. The extra 10% in SpA and 20% in Atk will really help deal extra damage as now instead of 75 average on kyogre you will be doing 85% average on 252/0 kyogres and 2HKOing 4/0 (scarf) versions.

Just my two cents

If you run 252 Atk with a neutral nature, Rayquaza does a minimum of 51% to Dialga with Earthquake. It won't ever 2HKO with Earthquake and ExtremeSpeed. The problem with running this is that 48 Speed Dialga will beat Rayquaza. Why do I need extra Attack EVs to 2HKO Dialga when I'm 2HKOing it anyway?

There's a simple reason for the extra Speed: to be safe. I would much rather be safeguarded against all Dialga and all Groudon as opposed to hitting Kyogre for 10% more damage which is less likely to matter in the long run. The extra ability to 2HKO 4 HP / 0 S(Def) Kyogre means absolutely nothing when it outspeeds and KOes Rayquaza first (which is likely if it's 4 HP / 0 (S)Def versions. Most importantly though, it allows me to utilize Rayquaza with more ease in the midgame (ie. spam a speedy Draco Meteor).

One thing i just noticed is, if deoxys-A attacks first, then its extreme speed will outspeed ray's, so that may be another lead that beats rayquaza, regardless of the EVs.

It never 2HKOes even with max Attack, which is a huge selling point.

 

[V97]

twashley, if you mean with extreme speed, then deoxys can always ice beam, then extreme speed. Coulde a setup sweeper lead set be viable as well? For instance, something like

Rayquaza @ Focus sash
Adamant
252 atk/ 252 spe/ 4 HP

Swords dance/ Dragon claw/ extreme speed/ earthquake

It relies on the opponent (1) using stealth rock first, and not attacking or using twave, and (2) the opponent not being able to kill it off with extreme speed. Just throwing it out there.
The good thing is, ray's sash can never be ruined by weather.

 

[Uchiha]

@Chii, It`s not as if every Dialga will survive Outrage, only Dialga with a huge defensive investment can survive it

And yes, Overheat is important, but I think Extremespeed is better than Earthquake.

 

[V97]

How is overheat more important than earthquake? earthquake hits jirachi, dialga, and (I'm unsure about this one) palkia for ohkos after a dragon dance without hte need to lock ray into outrage.

 

[Uchiha]

How is overheat more important than earthquake? earthquake hits jirachi, dialga, and (I'm unsure about this one) palkia for ohkos after a dragon dance without hte need to lock ray into outrage.

Extremespeed hits Palkia if you don`t want to lock yourself into Outrage, against Dialga you have to lock yourself in, I think Jirachi can be killed with Overheat with some prior damage, I`d rather have a weapon against scarved Pokemon than hitting them without being locked.

and EQ vs. OH: Forretress can use Payback and you will have to attack it twice, that means you take ~40% damage, and you beat Shedinja that way, I owned such a guy with my Shedinja team because he had no Overheat.

 

[V97]

well, to me, it isn't an issue of overheat vs earthquake, it's an issue of finding a moveslot for extreme speed, which is an interesting option, but might be unnecessary if you give rayquaza the proper team support.

 

[Jibaku]

New topic: Adamant Rayquaza

There is no real reason to use Adamant SDRay IMO (bar OHKOing defensive Groudon with Outrage, but that's unreliable still). With Jolly, you may lose a bit of power against the likes of Palkia, but at the same time it is easily revenged by Giratina-O (which is much worse because he doesn't take any damage from ExtremeSpeed!) and +Speed Dialga (which is starting to become more common). Adamant also means other JollyRays / JollyLukes can OutES you. You also get outsped by the standard Lugia. While we're at it, there's no reason to use Adamant DDRay either - it means you'll be outsped by BOTH Scarf Dialga and Scarf Palkia.

Stick with the +Speed natures

 

[V97]

With DD ray, i've always used jolly so that i could be guaranteed to always outspeed scarfd kyogre after a DD.