Legendary Dragon- Rayquaza Discussion Thread

[V97]

Chii, it's impossible for any non-speed boosted ray to outspeed lugia, or at least a standard one. The standard carries 204 spd EVs to outspeed rayquaza specifically, and it carries reflect to essentially null ray's swords dance.

mtr, you may be right about lati@s switching in on earthquake or overheat, but i also think that no latias in her right mind will switch into a DDing or SDing rayquaza, unless it has a scarf.

We've established many times that they both have checks, if not counters; but what teammates do each of them need, then? In my experience, wobbuffet has been valuable to both of them with encore, as well as its ability to pick off bothersome scarfers. Apart from wobbuffet, at leat one other sweeper is usually needed with Ray, particularly DD, in order to finish the job, as i said before. between the outrage's locking effect and its confusion afterwards, Rayquaza is very likely to make a huge hole in the opponent's team, but very unlikely to get a perfect sweep. Things like kingdra, with rain support, are especially effective, as double STAB waterfall can usually finsish up the opponent's team when groudon and other bulky pokemon have been weakened (the former must be completely KO'd, otherwise the sun will make Kingdra useless).

What teammates do other people use to support ray?

 

[Uchiha]

@ultimifier: DD-Rayquaza must use Outrage against Dialga, Groudon and Lugia, and Dialga could even live an +1 Outrage with some evs invested in its defenses. Also a scarfed Palkia cannot be koed by extreemspeed, nor can a scarfed Mewtwo. Extreemspeed is a rather bad move on DD-Quaza, because it will simply lack the power to do enough damage. I'd rather use Dragon Claw, Outrage and EQ so you don't have to lock yourself into Outrage when your facing giratina-o or other Quazas.
I think DD has its place but is by no means better than the SD-set, which can outspeed standard Lugia when it is Jolly and ko with Outrage too, as well as koing either Groudon with Aquatail(although the bulkiest Groudon will survive) or Dialga/Jirachi with EQ. Overheat can be chosen if one is very paranoiac about Skarmory and Shedinja. Also a +2 extremspeed is powerful enough to ko a scarfed Palkia after sr damage, when this Palkia is hasty it has no chance at all to live.

To sum up: DD-Quaza is utterly walled by Groudon and still revenged by Palkia and scarfed Jirachi, cannot beat all Dialgas and has to use Outrage most of the time.
SD-Quaza must run Jolly to be effectiv, must use Outrage against Lugia, but can chose either EQ or Waterfall/Aquatail as a last move to deal with its checks. Also extremspeed can kill many scarfers, therefore you don't have to use Outrage like the DD-set, which as I said should have Claw AND Outrage to avoid this situation.

DDRayquaza can use Earthquake against Dialga, and IMO Extremespeed is a good move on Ray, like ultimifier said, once it switches into Kyogre it`s in KO range, and Rayquaza is supposed to lock itself into Outrage,but that statement shows that you haven`t used it that much.
And like V97 said Rayquaza can`t outspeed Lugia, and using Outrage on SD Ray is like a Suicide action, you said that about DDRay:

DD-Quaza is utterly walled by Groudon and still revenged by Palkia and scarfed Jirachi, cannot beat all Dialgas and has to use Outrage most of the time.

You can say the same for SDquaza, Groudon can wall it, Palkia can`t (it can probably survive extremespeed when Ray is Jolly), Scarf Jirachi can wall it, and there are more that can wall it, like Scarf Dialga, and just about any pokemon that`s bulky.
Adamant is often the preferred nature, IIRC it turns several 2hko`s into OHKO`s and has a higher chance at killing something like Mewtwo.

 

[Chii]

Groudon cannot wall SD-Rayquaza, since Aquatail destroys it. Also the standard Lugia with 204 speed and bold nature(->grand wall) DOES NOT outspeed jolly SD-Quaza.
And it is by far the most common Lugia, since it is the only defensive spread suggested by smogon.

 

[V97]

You're right chii- sorry :)

So even lugia can't necessarily wall all SD rayquaza perfectly. although with adamant nature (which is probably more viable IMO) lugia can wall it, and wobbuffet or someone is need to either remove or tickle it.

 

[Uchiha]

aqua tail has a ~50% chance of killing groudon, so...

And if any good player has Jolly Rayquaza problems he will change Lugias EV spread, sounds obvious right?

It`s not like Lugias base speed is 90.

 

[V97]

sorry, i should have said all standard lugia can't necessarily wall SD rayquaza.

 

[ultimifier]

using outrage on SD chomp is just stupid. Your locking yourself into outrage on a pokemon that is outsped by over half the tier, Good Job! SD ray NEEDS to be jolly as giratina-o and lucario are all starting to run +speed to outspeed the adamant ones. However Jolly loses the power and has a harder time OHKOing mewtwo, palkia, and latias. So thats why SD quaza is losing efectiveness.

I can tell you havent played much ubers before Chii. ExtremeSpeed is a very important move on DD quaza. It can pick off scarf mewtwo, shaymin, darkrai, palkia afer a little bit of prior damage. And since DD quaza is supposed to be used midlate to late game you should have a general idea of your opponents team and be sure that you can sweep with a DD.

For example, one of my teams used a kyogre with thunderwave, ice beam, surf, thunder. This would lure in palkia, latias (and blissey, who is useless against my team) and i would either paralyze them or damage them. This would remove pokemon who hinder DD/SD quaza. After one switch in to SR and a thunder, even palkia was OHKOd by a +1 Extremespeed. I found DDquaza to be more effective on this team as i couldnt be shit on by random scarf dialgas and bulky mewtwos

 

[V97]

Ultimifier, what would you replace on rayquaza? If you replaced overheat, did you need something to cover skarmory?
Or if you replaced EQ, what stopped defensive dialga from coming in and ruining your sweep?

 

[Chii]

using outrage on SD chomp is just stupid. Your locking yourself into outrage on a pokemon that is outsped by over half the tier, Good Job! SD ray NEEDS to be jolly as giratina-o and lucario are all starting to run +speed to outspeed the adamant ones. However Jolly loses the power and has a harder time OHKOing mewtwo, palkia, and latias. So thats why SD quaza is losing efectiveness.

I can tell you havent played much ubers before Chii. ExtremeSpeed is a very important move on DD quaza. It can pick off scarf mewtwo, shaymin, darkrai, palkia afer a little bit of prior damage. And since DD quaza is supposed to be used midlate to late game you should have a general idea of your opponents team and be sure that you can sweep with a DD.

First off, why are you so hostile to people not sharing your opinion?
What makes you think that I am unexperienced with ubers? Because I don't approve of Extremspeed on DD-quaza?

Second off, you are contradicting yourself: Why would Outrage on DD-Quaza be better than Outrage on SD-quaza. Lets see: DD-Quaza does outspeed CS-Dialga, CS-Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai and Skymin and Lati@s after one DD. It does not outspeed Palkia, Garchomp, CS-Mewtwo. Now I ask you, what will you do if someone switches to Latias? You must use Outrage, because extremspeed doesn't kill...Your whole attempt to sweep can now be blocked by a steel and you will be confused in the end.
What will SD-Quaza do? it will simply smash Latias with Extremspeed.
All of the mentioned pokemon can be killed by extremspeed if the yhave taken little damage before, which is likely to happen due to SR and multiple switches.
Only Dialga won't be koed by e-speed, and that is why you have a Wobbuffet.
Also Lugia will force both Quazas to use Outrage, so what?
Don't tell Outrage on SD Quaza is worse than on DD, because it is simply not. Outrage has one sole purpose: it is a last resort move against Groudon and Lugia. And both Rayquazas will be revenged quite easily after this.
The only move that could make DD-Quaza a good option is Dragon Claw+Outrage, so it doesn't have to lock itself into Outrage against mentioned Latias and Mewtwo, but this is just my personal opinion. I don't treat people like amateurs, because they don't share my opinion, as long as they have reasonable arguments.
I would apreciate if any user of DD-Quaza with extremspeed would share his experiences. I can tell in my experience Dragon Claw has worked better for me.

 

[V97]

Well, i am an ametuer, but i think i disagree with some of your points chii.
First of all, DD ray can't spare a moveslot for dragon claw- overheat and earthquake are extremely important. IMO, extreme speed and dragon claw are unessecary, as extreme speed isn't powerful enough without SD and outrage is only meant to be used late-game, in situations where earthquake is no longer needed. midgame tho, is where earthquake shines, beccause it can pick off dialga, kyogre, palkia (unsure about palkia) after a DD without ray needing to be locked into outrage. Overheat can also defeat a multitude of pokemon, including scizor, forretress, skarmory, and the occasional bronzong. Without either of those, DD ray can't sweep effectively.

SD ray, on the other hand, seems to love extreme speed and dragon claw because of the extra boost SD gives. With the exception of lugia and groudon, outrage seems uneccesary with a +2 attack boost, and extreme speed suddenly becomes powerful enough to grab a lot of important KOs. It's the lack of priority (rather, strong priority) tthat gives seems to make DD less popular than SD, or at least contribute to it.

An uber metagame analysis that was supposed to come in the Smog's third edition would be helpful though -_-.

 

[Chii]

So you would go with DD, Outrage, Eq and Overheat?
interesting...well Overheat doesn't have much use at the moment, it had when Skarmory was more common, but standard Forretress can't do anything to Rayquaza, the only reson why I would use Overheat on DD is because EQ cannot ko Scizor so you have to eat 2 Bps which will hurt alot.
My favorite set is DD, Dragon Claw, Eq, Outrage, but I might try Overheat over Outrage. On the other hand if you can keep sr off the field you can just switch to mixed Dialga or Palkia to take Scizors bps and set up a sweep with it.

 

[V97]

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't overheat standard?

 

[Chii]

it has been standard for a long time, but I think it is about time to rethink its purpose. Eq is way more effectif in the current metagame where Bronzong and skarm are a rare sight.

 

[V97]

True, but i'm pretty sure skarmory is on about ten percent of teams- not preparing for skarmory with ray would be too costly. Plus, there's scizor and forretress, as well as the occasional jirachi who i may have doubts about KOing if it's physically defensive. I'm just saying overheat's utility is much more pronounced than either dragon claw or outrage, esepcailly considering rayquaza's general use as a lategame sweeper.

Although, perhaps certain teammates can make extreme speed a more viable option. an offensive lead like deoxys S or A, a backup spiker, and a rapid spin blocker could ensure that there are many entry hazards on the field. then magnezone could be a teammate to trap and kill pokemon that would otherwise be the target of overheat. Maybe this way, dragon dance rayquaza can use things that normally only SD variants can use (namely priority extreme speed), and assert itself as superior.

Just a suggestion :)
what do others think of this?

 

[ultimifier]

First off, why are you so hostile to people not sharing your opinion?
What makes you think that I am unexperienced with ubers? Because I don't approve of Extremspeed on DD-quaza?

Second off, you are contradicting yourself: Why would Outrage on DD-Quaza be better than Outrage on SD-quaza. Lets see: DD-Quaza does outspeed CS-Dialga, CS-Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai and Skymin and Lati@s after one DD. It does not outspeed Palkia, Garchomp, CS-Mewtwo. Now I ask you, what will you do if someone switches to Latias? You must use Outrage, because extremspeed doesn't kill...Your whole attempt to sweep can now be blocked by a steel and you will be confused in the end.
What will SD-Quaza do? it will simply smash Latias with Extremspeed.
All of the mentioned pokemon can be killed by extremspeed if the yhave taken little damage before, which is likely to happen due to SR and multiple switches.
Only Dialga won't be koed by e-speed, and that is why you have a Wobbuffet.
Also Lugia will force both Quazas to use Outrage, so what?
Don't tell Outrage on SD Quaza is worse than on DD, because it is simply not. Outrage has one sole purpose: it is a last resort move against Groudon and Lugia. And both Rayquazas will be revenged quite easily after this.
The only move that could make DD-Quaza a good option is Dragon Claw+Outrage, so it doesn't have to lock itself into Outrage against mentioned Latias and Mewtwo, but this is just my personal opinion. I don't treat people like amateurs, because they don't share my opinion, as long as they have reasonable arguments.
I would apreciate if any user of DD-Quaza with extremspeed would share his experiences. I can tell in my experience Dragon Claw has worked better for me.

Your wrong. I'm not hostile, but Outrage on SD quaza IS stupid. Ask anyone else. Trapping yourself in at <328 speed is a free kill for whoever comes in to revenge you.
On the other hand, trapping yourself in with Outrage at ~480 (or whatever jolly DD ray hits) is not suicide. Most teams will have 0 or 1 pokemon (VERY rarely 2) that can outspeed a DD ray. The user of DD ray is going to be aware of this and not bring out rayquaza until that pokemon is dead, OR at least try not to use Outrage until that pokemon is dead.

 

[V97]

Please, don't make this thread turn nasty.
You both have good points, though i have to agree with ultimifier in part because of SD rayquaza's sudden vulnerability to revenge killing after outrage. You said yourself that outrage would be a last resort on SD ray; well, on DD ray, it's the centerpiece. Perhaps there are ways to make outrage more effective on SD, just as there are (arguably ineffective, but still not nonexistent) ways to bolster the usefulness of extreme speed on DD?

 

[mtr]

True, but i'm pretty sure skarmory is on about ten percent of teams- not preparing for skarmory with ray would be too costly.

Skarmory is on barely 2% of all teams, and not the greatest consideration when using Rayquaza. Besides, most players prefer to EV Skarmory in SDef, meaning that it is 2HKOed by a DDLO-boosted Outrage.

 

[drcossack]

I'd like to bring everyone's attention to an often-overlooked set: Choice Band Rayquaza.

Rayquaza@Choice Band
Jolly|252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 Defense/Special Defense
1. Dragon Claw
2. Earthquake
3. Extremespeed
4. Outrage

The Jolly nature is to outspeed all base 90s as well as to speed tie or better with all other Rayquazas. Max Attack and Speed are obvious, while the 6 Defense/Special Defense is leftover. IIRC not putting the last 6 EVs in HP lets Rayquaza switch into Stealth Rock 4 times without dying, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The moves are straightforward as well: Dragon Claw is the main STAB move, Outrage is for beastly power to OHKO or 2HKO practically everything with the downside of probably getting KOd yourself once you use it, Earthquake is for coverage on Steels (Dialga being the most important target), and Extremespeed is for awesome priority to finish off weakened 'mons. While SD and DD Ray both get basically one chance to do their thing before dying, CB Ray is a hit-and-run sweeper that packs immediate power as well as good revenge-killing capabilities. It was a key member of the team that got me to the top (non-glitched) spot on the ladder back in August, and I wouldn't ever replace it for CB Chomp or a different Ray set. Try it out sometime - I promise you won't be disappointed!

Right. Rayquaza's fragility is multiplied in a metagame where Dragon types are frequent - Giratina, Garchomp, Dialga, Palkia, and Kingdra (on rain teams.) Because of that (and a playstyle geared heavily towards offense), I found I really didn't have time to set up with DD or SD, and there isn't a lot of priority in Ubers (ESpeed on Rayquaza and Deoxys, and Scizor are the big 3.) Given those two factors, I realized that Speed isn't as big an issue compared to dealing damage.

Some numbers, all without SR (since my team doesn't use it)

At minimum, Jolly CBRay's Extremespeed does a little less than 50% to a 4 HP/0 Def Mewtwo, to taking off over half of its HP (188/354.)

Non-Scarf Timid Dialga are 2HKO'd by CB Outrage (and EQ), as are Groudon and a slower Max Defense Bold Lugia. At 4 HP/0 Def, ScarfChomp, Palkia, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Giratina/Origin, IF they switch in, are all OHKO'd. They won't though, because Outrage is basically a "Kill me now" sign.

Also, I personally don't use Dragon Claw, but it's a matter of preference. Because I'm slightly paranoid (and lost several times in the past to Shedinja), 4 of my 6 Pokemon (Palkia, Garchomp, Rayquaza, and Darkrai) can deal with it if necessary.

 

[V97]

You hit on one of the reasons CB ray isn't used very much- its frailty, and lack of speed... okay, two of the reasons lol. Anyway, as you said before, the Uber metagame is geared heavily towards offense. by extension, most of the pokemon in the tier strive to kill as many opponents as quickly as possible. The reason why CB ray is inferior to DD, and to a lesser extent SD is inferior to DD, is because it can't boost its speed, and must rely on priority, which as you show in your damage calcs, can't ohko much, thus defeating the purpose of striking first.
In short, there's more time to set up a DD imo than there is to strike from an unboosted speed stat as low as base 95 with a pokemon that's as frail as rayquaza. it just doesn't seem like it could work.

 

[Uchiha]

I`d rather use Overheat on Rayquaza to OHKO Forretress, so they can`t explode or use Payback.

Earthquake isn`t that important on Rayquaza, sure a defensive Dialga can wall you, but it`s not like such a Dialga once stopped my sweep.

 

[Private Piplup]

I never was a big fan of Ray, due to SR weakness and taking ~50% from a Scizor's CB BP. Also, it always has a tough time choosing its moves. SD Ray usually packs SD (duh) Dragon Claw, Extremespeed, and Fire Blast/Overheat. However, with this set, a Groudon can cause trouble. With Waterfall/Aqua Tail for Groudon, it loses valuable STAB; dropping X-speed on such a slow poke is a no-no, and while putting EQ over the fire move is viable, floating steels are a pain. Of course it has (and should have) counters/checks, but I find almost every (good) team is prepared for an SD Ray, so for me, it often isn't worth the trouble of setting up.

 

[Uchiha]

Earthquake and Overheat are two pretty worthless moves (especially Earthquake) and I think we should discuss what`s better on Rayquaza

Skarmory and Bronzong are on ~2% of teams, the only reason I`d ever use OH is to OHKO Forretress.

Earthquake does not beat defensive Dialga here are some calcs:

Jolly Outrage || 598 Atk vs 372 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 271 - 319 (67.08% - 78.96)

Jolly Earthquake || 598 Atk vs 372 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 302 - 356 (74.75% - 88.12%) Dialga takes 6% SR damage so it can`t be KO`d.

Adamant Earthquake || 657 Atk vs 372 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 330 - 390 (81.68% - 96.53%) it has a 15.38% chance of KOing with SR, well good luck.

And now let`s see how common defensive Dialga is:

| Dialga | Nature | Modest | 35.0 |
| Dialga | Nature | Timid | 24.3 |
| Dialga | Nature | Careful | 16.5 |
| Dialga | Nature | Other (6) | < 8.1 |
| Dialga | HP EV | Max | 42.7 |
| Dialga | Defense EV | None | 95.8 |
| Dialga | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 1.8 |

So it`s

| Dialga | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 1.8 |
| Dialga | Nature | Other (6) | < 8.1 |
| Dialga | HP EV | Max | 42.7 |

Dialga is used on 29% of teams.

that`s rare and if your chance of defeating it with Adamant EQ is 15.38%, I don`t see a reason to have it.


The only viable move I can think of is:

- Extremespeed is a very good move that allows Rayquaza to beat it`s usual counters with some prior damage, like a Palkia that has switched in your Kyogre`s Water Spout or Thunder

 

[bojangles]

Overheat is by no means a bad move. It is really your most reliable way to handle various Steel-types, like Skarmory and Forretress, who otherwise wall you completely. Furthermore, Rayquaza's Air Lock makes Overheat viable even when Kyogre has been in play, so its an ability that you can really make use of.

EDIT: Here's a damage calc of Overheat versus Metagross, courtesy of Theorymon: 119.23% - 140.66% (this is max HP Metagross)

Of all the moves on DD ray, I'd say Earthquake is the most expendable. By replacing it with Waterfall, you can still hit Steel-types for neutral damage. You just miss the super effective hit on Dialga in particular, bit it already takes massive damage from Outrage. However, Steel-types can't be underestimated, because Jirachi and Metagross can do some serious damage with Ice Punch, so there is still a strong argument for Earthquake (Waterfall is weaker than Outrage vs Groudon anyway). Furthermore, who uses max/max bold Dialga? Most versions will be OHKOed.

 

[Jibaku]

Jolly Outrage || 598 Atk vs 372 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 271 - 319 (67.08% - 78.96)

Jolly Earthquake || 598 Atk vs 372 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 302 - 356 (74.75% - 88.12%) Dialga takes 6% SR damage so it can`t be KO`d.

Who uses max HP / max Def Bold Dialga? (unless you are desperate or something).

that`s rare and if your chance of defeating it with Adamant EQ is 15.38%, I don`t see a reason to have it.

...
Way to emphasize on nonexistent things...

 

[Chii]

And now let`s see how common defensive Dialga is:

| Dialga | Nature | Modest | 35.0 |
| Dialga | Nature | Timid | 24.3 |
| Dialga | Nature | Careful | 16.5 |
| Dialga | Nature | Other (6) | < 8.1 |
| Dialga | HP EV | Max | 42.7 |
| Dialga | Defense EV | None | 95.8 |
| Dialga | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 1.8 |

So it`s

| Dialga | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 1.8 |
| Dialga | Nature | Other (6) | < 8.1 |
| Dialga | HP EV | Max | 42.7 |

Dialga is used on 29% of teams.

that`s rare and if your chance of defeating it with Adamant EQ is 15.38%, I don`t see a reason to have it.

statistics don't lie, and it says: | Dialga | Defense EV | None | 95.8 |
which means there is practically no max defense Dialga, and Bu Dialga can't even live Outrage, EQ will demolish it.
A good argument to get out of the statistic would be
Dialga | Item | Choice Scarf | 29.4
and still that means 70% of all Dialgas will be koed by Eq.
As for Forrtress:
Forretress | Move | Explosion | 42.6. As Dialga's and Forrie's usages are almost equal, you can argue that Overheat is still more useful, since 30% of all Dialgas can beat you when you have EQ and 40% of all Forries. With Overheat over Eq you will be able to beat all Forries and 70% of all Dialgas with Outrage.
I admit that I have underestimated the number of people having explosion on Forrtress, in the end it is a personal preference, both moves can come in handy and as you have said Extremspeed and its STAB move of choice are its main weapons anyway