Team Building

Apologies in advance if this thread doesn't "fit" with Stark Mountain, but it is something that has intrigued me for a while. I mean, look how [I don't know exactly what word I want to use to describe it but] vast the concept of team building is. There are literally hundreds of different ways to build a team, and the best thing is; there is no incorrect solution to building one.

But how do you begin team building effectively so that you gain advantages against other teams? I just want to talk a little about different ways you might go along doing this but I am much more curious in finding out how you guys start.

I think the most popular method is building off a favorite Pokemon / starter Pokemon and just continously changing what you have until you reach a perfect balance or point which you feel your team can't surpass. But my issue with this is you limit yourself right from beginning. I think it is good to have a central purpose for your team right when you start out (setting up a sweep for a certain Pokemon or building stall off of it) but what if you continuously progress to a point where that starting Pokemon no longer fits? Do you ditch it and think of this team as a failure, no matter how successful it becomes? Is it learning from your mistake, or is it not a mistake in the first place? Do you continue building teams like this, despite it not working out?

There are so many questions with the method of just picking one Pokemon to base a team around or start it off that I think by default, we switch to combinations / synergic cores. Look at the "Offensive / Defensive Combinations" threads as a reference to see what I am talking about here, but I think this is something a lot of players do when they just can't decide on one Pokemon or do not want to limit themselves from the beginning (despite, as one could argue, this is limiting yourself even further). By picking two or three Pokemon to begin with, are you really limiting yourself, or is your team already close to as perfect as it could be? Are you too close to the edge of bog standard before you even pick the rest of your team? Does picking three Pokemon (let's use Vaporeon/Heatran/Celebi) already force you to use other certain Pokemon as well? I think in the case of using those three as a synergic core, the most common last three are Tyranitar, Gliscor, and Scizor. Obviously there are just as many issues.

Are we so fed up with starting out with a set progress that we fall into an anarchy of sorts? I am guilty of this, as I simply put 6 random Pokemon on my team to start, test it out a little, and move on. When I feel comfortable with a certain group of the 6, I test in a different setting (better opponents, different ideas) before moving on again. Is this smart? No, probably not; I don't have any central purpose starting out, and I usually don't get one to end out with either. But I like it because it let's me just go with the flow and not grow attached to certain combinations or Pokemon that I start out with.

What is your method of team building and what would you suggest is the best solution to those who can't figure out the best way to get started? I have to go right now, I can elaborate some more tommorow, but team building is interesting to discuss, I think :).

I write my teams on paper so everything is easier to keep track of. I start when I see a good combination (such as Gliscor + Blissey) and build a sturdy team around that. Then I calculate what stops what and see which Pokemon can assist the team the most and take out threats. Then I watch it fail on Shoddy and after losing to the same thing twice, I make a counter for it.

I find a combo, goal, gimmick, set-up ect, and base the team around that. After finding the central core that accomplishes the goal, tweaks and changes are made to best improve this central idea. After a while, it gets the right balance. Then, by reading other teams, warstories, ect, I find a new goal and start a new team based on that influence. For example, the last team I made was based on torment-tran after being completely decimated by one on shoddy. I thought "how could this set possibly be as good as slapping a scarf on one and throwing around fire blasts?" but with proper support it was really cool to use.

If people are looking for an idea to base a team around, read archived warstories, RMTs, and look for interesting sets that aren't too ridiculous when you are battling and try then out.

I usually start building my teams around certain threats.

Whenever I make a new team for use on Shoddy, I just start with a basic idea and make a team from it, then I slowly make changes to it until it functions well, which can sometimes take quite a while

Well, for stall teams, I usually think of stuff I want: Spikes, Rapid Spin, Toxic Spikes, Blissey, way to beat last-poke stat uppers, etc etc. For offensive teams, I usually think of a goal in an endgame sweeper, and build a team around making it sweep. I'll probably devote half my team to developing an offensive strategy. The rest of the team will cover threats that I haven't already addressed.

I generally just pick a Pokemon or two who I like, it's really spontaneous. One day I'll make one around Tyranitar + Salamence, the next will be Celebi + Scizor, it varies really. I just spam out teams until one looks like it could be good and then focus on touching that up. I'm not a fan of working on the same team for too long, so I guess that's why I really just create so many teams. ~_~

I usually pick one or 2 pokemon to build the team around and try to cover as much as I can in one team. Typically after making it I run some test matches to help me fix as much as I can.

Well I'd first like to make some points about how your team should either be 1. For laddering or 2. A tournament. This can be key when creating a successful team because for the ladder you obviously want to abuse common things as well as using things that work consistently. For tournaments, however, you want the team to be as broad as possible, covering lots of threats so you won't lose to a gimmick. The same goes for laddering but in tournaments, once you lose to the single threat you're out. In tournament play, you also know who the opponent is so you can abuse that fact when making a team to try and beat the style they are known for, aka counterteaming, but that's a prick move and shouldn't be used.

Now I'm going to explain the way I usually build teams as well as providing an example team shown in my latest rmt. This team is antilead life orb starmie, shuca berry stealth rock heatran, dragon dance tyranitar with leftovers and the move taunt, swords dance scizor (lucario works here too), dragon dance gyarados with leftovers and taunt, and scarf flygon. I started the team when I wanted to use a specific lead, lo starmie, and let it lure in scarftar and abuse that fact. Since scarftar is so common it works great on the ladder. Now to abuse this, I wanted a core of solid sweepers that would benefit from starmie opening up holes and getting killed by tyranitar. Gyarados and tyranitar is an excellent core since they lure in things the other one can beat, as well as tyranitar beating stall on it's own pretty much with gyarados aiding that. Since both pokemon hate water types, and i needed stealth rock, I added heatran to blow up on water types, kill things like flygon, and provide stealth rock. Now 4 members are down, and there are obviously some weaknesses such as jolteon, latias to an extent, and some others. I also lacked priority as well as a lasting steel type for the team. I then added scizor since the team so far easily beat rotom and zapdos, as well as having priority and late game sweeping potential when paired with gyarados and tyranitar. The final spot went to a choice scarfer to revenge threats and scout with u-turn so flygon was the obvious choice.

So basically I pick a core and work around it, while other times I think of a strategy I want to accomplish, ie roserade with toxic spikes, bronzong to set up screens, add 3 sweepers and a scarfer and sweep. I'm not the best teambuilder but whatever. I hope purpleweezing posts in this topic since he's the best teambuilder I know! :)

I think you should base your team around something random, then make changes slowly. But I think if you realize that the original Pokemon doesn't fit anymore, by all means, you should change it. Competitive Pokemon is about winning, and if something doesn't fit, you get rid of it. That's just how it works.

My old method of team building was this, theorymon the heck out of a strategy to make it perfect and take my perfect, unbeatable team to the ladder. Unfortunately, it never worked that way and it was too hard to make the appropriate changes. I largely play stall so what I do is pick a pokemon or moveset that I like or want to try and put it alongside what would wall well with it. Because my stall is unconventional (Not using NU's for the sake of using them because I'm an individual, but things like using fast taunters as my core) tinkering with experimental movesets is almost always necessary. With this knowledge I don't like making a team of 6 pokemon, usually I settle on a core of 4 and step back to analyze it.

I then pick a lead that suits my team, and can pull its weight long after the starting matchup. Lastly I pick my glue, and the reason I pick a glue and not just have a larger 'core' is because I have trouble replacing my core. My glue is simply to check what has yet to be checked, and I find them easier to adjust instead of having this rigid build. Maybe its a sign of poor team building logic, but I can't get it right the first time so just playtest, playtest, playtest until you find what changes you need ad naseum.

I have the common method of a certain goal I want the team to accomplish, and build around that, with subsidiary goals around the original. For example, I'm about to build a team centered around Oldstyle MixMence, and a core within that is a lead combo that always works well, Roserade+Swampert. Then I theorymon it on paper for a couple of days and play it by ear on the ladder from there.

i mainly play ubers so i'll outline what i do there (this method doesnt really work for OU however, which is why i suck at OU)

1. Fuck forretress. Choose 1/2 pokemon that usually do not do well against forrestress and change their movesets so they can lure out and kill forry. Some common examples are lustrous orb palkia(bluffing scarf), maxspeed timid dialga(bluffing scarf), HP fire lati@s

2. Pick a lead that beats deoxys-e. Be it 2hko with priority or 2hko it with a focus sash left intact just DO NOT LET IT get SR+spikes AND OHKO your lead with the switch in when it dies. Rayquaza, lucario, frolass, Scarfrai, Scarftwo, FS mewtwo all work.

3. patch up weaknesses. a lucario lead and a lustrous orb palkia need rain so a kyogre needs to be thrown on, however now we are weak to garchomp and other dragons over speed 328. So a scarfdialga/LO mewtwo can be thrown on to patch up that weakness. More weaknesses are created and by the end there are usually only a couple of weaknesses left on the team

4. repeat. having 4 teams with few weaknesses is really good on the ladder. If you have a team that is weak to ho-oh and garchomp, and your playing someone with those 2 pokemon, just swtich teams. Its consistent and allows you to confuse your opponent as no one can memorize which of the 4 teams they are facing

this doesnt work that well in OU as there are so many threats and stall is retarded with all those fucking rotoms latias gliscor etc. I can get up to ~1450 in OU but 1650 in ubers so meh

Sprinkles way of building a team is the best advice you can get, so thank you sprinkles for giving us so much advice on how to build a team effectively. As goes for me, i usually build a team around a core, i got help from my good friend delta7777 on how to build more effectively a while ago, he went on and told me how he build his teams around cores and whatnot, and i took his advice, went to the OU combination guide here at stark, and i went on with that. An example of how to build a team is to look at your cores, choose one that you like the most, it doesnt matter, but for now, let's just go with Mence+Jirachi. Now, jirachi and mence are great team mates, covering each other weaknesses, (You can go with metagross and mence too if you want). But anyway, let's say you go with a Mixmence and special defensive jirachi (which works very very well in the OU metagame, covers a lot of threats including some of mence well known counters). So we have mence and jirachi, so now we look at what were weak to. Looks like we are weak to swampert, so we look for another team mate that can cover up our swampert weakness, and go on from there.

I hope this is the correct way of doing it. :3

You can also use a lure way of beating swampert or whatever your team has trouble with. Lures are probably the best way of taking out a pokemon, since if you use a counter, they are just going to switch. You may think the team I used as an example doesn't have problems with scizor since I have gyarados and heatran, but they don't lure it in. Heatran is usually exploding early anyway and gyara is weak to sr so it isn't the best answers. However, starmie hits scizor extremely hard with hydro pump when scizor attempts to beat it.

I typically find a battle style/strategy (such as stalling, weather aid, etc) first. Then search for what Pokemon best fit that strategy that have the moves I need. When I find my first Pokemon, I keep branching off with counters to the weaknesses to the prior Pokemon. So if I choose a Scizor as my initial Pokemon (not lead, just something that fits the style), I would choose something to counter its weakness to fire/special attacks.

I make sure that I have all the moves I need to effectively pull off the strategy, with items. Near the end I'll usually look back and see how bad it is (because it usually is), and make changes accordingly. I can sometimes come out with a good strategy.

I actually plan stuff lol.
Occasionally during the day, ideas just formulate in my head (ideas like SubLiechi Agility Scizor).
Later on, I'll go and find some scrap paper and do a small brainstorm of what I'll be using. Not even a list yet, just put my central idea in the middle and draw links saying what would work and what wouldn't work.
After pulling out a bunch of options, I cut them down depending on effectiveness.
With the SubAgility Scizor I had above, my movepool was limited mainly to Iron Head and X-Scissor. So obviously I had to find a way to remove the likes of Heatran, Skarmory and Magnezone. What better way to do that with my own Magnezone.
Phazers will also give me some trouble, so things such as Suicune have to be stopped. I chose Breloom for this being a good coverall.
At this point I have three fire weaknesses, so I might as well capitalize on that and throw in a Torment Heatran.

The process goes on for a while, and I just cut it all down to 5. Get the five, choose the right movepool, throw in a TrickScarf lead and I'm good to go.

I do 1 of 2 things.

1: PLAN. Weather my team is going to be Trick Room (which I love so very very much), Overburner, or some other thing that I decide on, I put it up. These teams usually work fairly well, and are the ones that afford me the most success.

2: Domino method. These teams are different. I come up with a good lead, and see how it goes from there. Here's how I thought of my CAP team.

Lead. What do I need? SR. Kitsunoh has a lot of scouting moves, and maybe SR, so I'll look at that.

No, it doesn't have SR. Hmm... Fake out, U-turn, Will o Wisp... I guess Shadow Strike as well.

Next... I need a counter to certain threats. How about something like a Swampert? That should work.

I need something with a lot of punch. Tyranitar is powerful, stick a Choice band on it and call it a day. (Turns out I had just found one of the greatest CAP Stallbreakers. Who knew?)

Tyranitar sets up SS... so why don't I put in a Stratagem? It can use special attacks, and abuse the sandstorm, and it even gets Weather Ball! (This was about when I decided on Sandstorm)

Let's cover weaknesses. Fighting and Ground attacks beat me, so I'll give myself a Gliscor.

Now, for support, why don't I try Fidget?

*Tests happened*

Starmie rips my team a new one, none of my members can kill it. Someone on the chat suggested Special Defensive Registeel... Swampert hasn't done much, so I'll get rid of him.

*More tests*

Team is good. Fidget needs replaced, but I can't find anything good enough to get rid of it for.

*Colossoil is done. I help playtest, find a good set.*

Fidget is terrible here, Colossoil fits the team better. It also helps against Salamence!


There you have it.

I think of all the strategies that are in vogue that I hate and don't want to lose to, like fucking skarmory spike-stacking, Scarftar trapping or U-turn spamming CB scizor. Then I put together a core of pokemon that shit all over those lame ass strategies by turning those pokemon into set up fodder. Then I patch up the weaknesses.

I used to suck at team building until I started metagaming like this

SoT said:

I generally just pick a Pokemon or two who I like, it's really spontaneous. One day I'll make one around Tyranitar + Salamence, the next will be Celebi + Scizor, it varies really. I just spam out teams until one looks like it could be good and then focus on touching that up. I'm not a fan of working on the same team for too long, so I guess that's why I really just create so many teams. ~_~

Click to expand...

This is exactly my problem. Well.. maybe it's not a problem, but my team folder is flooding; I have like 300+ teams from all kinds of tiers and tournaments and most of them are garbage anyway. I've always had a problem with trashing stuff hahaha.

But anyway, I think SoT jsut summed up anything I'd like to say - building a team is mostly spontaneous.

There are definitely incorrect solutions to team building.

I first plan the team and then test it and fix it accordingly after I play with it. I don't plan a certain playstyle, I just pick a few Pokemon that I find useful and build a team around it, changing the Pokemon, EV spreads and sets as I play. For example, this is how my NEE team building went: (Note that I haven't tested the team as the tournament hasn't started yet)

I need a solid lead that can beat most others and prevent them setting up entry hazards. Electabuzz is one of the fastest in the tier. Thunderbolt from that SA hurts most things a lot. Cross Chop deals with Chansey. Psychic can get rid of Roselia, which is the only TS (ab)user. On the last slot I'll use HP Grass, which will let me kill Graveler. Slap a LO on it, and it's all set.

Now, Rhydon is the main suspect, so I feel obliged to use it. The metagame looks like a stallfest with Chansey, P2 and Dusclops... Why not use CB Rhydon to break stall? Stone Edge and Earthquake 2HKO pretty much everything. The closest thing to a check is Marshtomp who takes %70-83 with max/max+. If it goes above 168 speed it risks being KOd even without SR, so I'll run max speed, which will let me outspeed it with 1 point. There is also Vibrava; despite its horrible defenses, it takes only %47-57 from Stone Edge and needs only 8 Speed EVs to outspeed Max Rhydon, while doing back 47-56% back with Giga Drain, easily beating Rhydon. To deal with that, I'll run Avalanche on the other spot, which comfortably OHKOs. Since there is nothing that is a safe switch-in to this set as you can beat everything with proper prediction, I'll run Sub on the last spot. This'll both let me see my opponents counter and bluff a non-choice set. It needs Wish support though...

Now, what can stop all the special attackers easily and provide Wish support for the team? Chansey, of course! Wish is a given, and Seismic Toss will let Chansey do consistent damage to everything. Thunder Wave will cripple all those glass cannons like Kadabra and Haunter should they stay in. Counter is my choice in the last spot, as 252/252+ Chansey can take most physical hits.

Now, 3 spots left. My own Rhydon can take SEs from opposing Rhydon, but it absolutely rampages through my team with Earthquake. I need something that can take hits relatively well and deal with stall, should Rhydon die. Golbat seems like the perfect choice. It has rather sturdy defenses for the tier and can shut down stall teams with quick Taunts. It also is a good partner to Blissey, handling Machoke which is like the only thing that gives her headaches. Substitute is needed to protect Golbat from random TWaves that render her useless. Roost is an obvious choice. Poison Fang both deals damage and has a nasty %20 chance to inflict toxic, rounding off the set. Brightpowder for the annoyance.

Now, there is one more problem that my team needs to cover: Dragons. Dragonair has rather sturdy defenses and can set up on Chansey, Electabuzz and Golbat. It also has reliable recovery in Shed Skin + Rest. Gabite can dent pretty much everything in my team with STAB Outrages. For that, I'll use Piloswine, who stops dragons cold (ahahah) with its awesome defenses. So far I lack SR, so he can do that as well. Ice Shard and Earthquake are musts for Piloswine. Let's use Reflect on the last spot for supporting the team.

Last spot... I think I'll use Specs Combusken. STAB Vacuum Wave coming off 85 SA isn't something everything will shrug off. It's also a final precaution against Rhydon and deals with Lairon, especially Rock Polish versions. Fire Blast, Focus Blast and HP Dark (Dusclops) to round off the set.

There. Whew. I'll probably have made 8376528367 changes before the tournament starts though.

There are definitely incorrect solutions to team building.

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on this?

I believe he means there are incorrect ways to go about team building. Something like putting your 6 favorite NFEs on a team in OU might fit the bill.

the only time i build teams is when i'm in a tournament. i usually look at what teams my opponent usually makes, and build a counterteam for that. #stark knows this already, but when i ladder seriously, it's with rain dance. people try to counter the metagame, but rain dance just ignores that and runs over most teams. tyranitar isn't even as big of a problem as one might think, since dugtrio and scizor are great options...