Donphan (Specially Defensive)

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Rapid Spin
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Stone Edge / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 188 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

• It reliably lures and OHKOes many Special Attackers in the tier, namely Moltres, Blaziken, Alakazam, and Houndoom.
• It has the ability to Rapid Spin "if all else fails" against Pokemon such as Milotic, Blastoise, Slowbro, and Slowking.
• It has the ability to check and set up against various Special threats such as Uxie, Venusaur, Rotom, and Mismagius.
• Still beats Pokemon that it needs to beat such as Steelix and Registeel.
• Will mention that Roar and Stone Edge should be chosen based on whether you have something to check Mismagius, Rotom, and Moltres, or something to check Rock Polish Torterra, SubPunch Aggron, and DD Feraligatr.

I'll give it my stamp already:

why can't you just mention this as an alternate ev spread? the moveset + purpose is essentially the same; it's not like spdef skarm because it still can't switch in (it's a check but only as long as it's at full HP).

It's an alternate spread / moveslots / playstyle. Stone Edge is also emphasized for Moltres.

the moves on the set are essentially the same; "standard" donphan is essentially a combination of earthquake + rapid spin + two attacking moves or one attacking move and stealth rock (despite what it says on-site, the slashes aren't as limiting as they may seem).

also, i'd argue the playstyle is *similar enough* to the standard set to justify keeping the sets together. this set still primarily switches into the same subset of pokemon (physical attackers and walls), and it doesn't counter any additional pokemon. the difference is that you can check a few powerful special sweepers, but only if you are at full hp (moltres fire blast does 83% minimum for example); this doesn't mean that you would actively play this donphan differently, though, because you still can't switch into any of them. it just means that if moltres comes in you don't need to always run away.

two examples i'll use to support my point:

1. special defense skarm vs defense skarm. they switch into and can set up on different sets of pokemon. people don't run special defense for the sole purpose of not getting ohkoed by dragon dance salamence's fire blast, they run it so they can take advantage of different pokemon.

2. baitlix vs standard wall steelix. wall steelix prioritizes staying alive above all else, while baitlix is actually an offensive pokemon under the guise of a defensive one as it is designed SPECIFICALLY to take out specific defensive pivots. in contrast, donphan's primary purpose stays the same no matter what the EVs are; it is a defensive pokemon that sets up stealth rock (if you choose) and rapid spins.

whistle said:

why can't you just mention this as an alternate ev spread? the moveset + purpose is essentially the same; it's not like spdef skarm because it still can't switch in (it's a check but only as long as it's at full HP).

Click to expand...

This plays 100% differently. The standard Donphan excels at absolutely wrecking every Ghost-type / other switch in without considering other uses.

Donphan's role as a Rapid Spinner is never going to be changed, but its other utilities, advantages, and playstyle will remain the same in every set. I mean, why aren't NP and SD Ape slashed together? It is still a set up sweeper is it not? A more relevant example is specially based MixApe vs physically based MixApe. Their role is to wall break, they have essentially the same moves, but they go about wall breaking differently vs different targets etc.

BaitLix and SpD Skarm are both examples that I would think help my case. They still do the same thing - Steelix switches in and sets up Stealth Rock, then eventually Explodes, while SpD Skarm does the same thing as the physical one just more/less effectively vs certain targets.

Within Pokemon you're not going to get many huge "role changes", but there are key differences in many sets that set them apart. This one has many that set it apart from the physical one.

It doesn't make sense to just add a paragraph talking about everything a SpD Donphan can do compared because it simply doesn't apply.

gonna say its a good set, it can take a np shadow ball from lefties mismag which was displayed to me a few mins ago.

Brilliant, just after I said that a Specially-Defensive Donphan wouldn't work, here it is on Smogon...

wouldnt a spD donphan have to invest the full 252 evs and than a careful nature?

romeojustdie said:

wouldnt a spD donphan have to invest the full 252 evs and than a careful nature?

Click to expand...

Why would it have to do that? All I'm concerned about is comfortably surviving Moltres's Fire Blast (the hardest hitting move this Donphan needs to take).

I agree with the comparison between physical and special skarmory brought up by whistle. This should be given a mentioned, but it totally doesn't deserve an entire set of its own. A single paragraph in AC shouldn't be too difficult. In a nutshell, you can even say it along the lines of something like this, "You can pump up its Special Defense stat in order to comfortably stay in on several special threats such as Moltres, Mismagius, and Rotom."

I don't think a similar set with just an EV spread change and "comfortably surviving Moltres's Fire Blast (the hardest hitting move this Donphan needs to take)" suggests a new set should be added, either. You can easily mention this in the set already on-site, exactly what franky said above. The EV spread and more emphasis on Stone Edge are pretty much the only differences to the standard set, so it's not difficult to explain that in one or two sentences.

Please make sure to address what the actual differences between the sets are:

Heysup said:

• It reliably lures and OHKOes many Special Attackers in the tier, namely Moltres, Blaziken, Alakazam, and Houndoom.
• It has the ability to Rapid Spin "if all else fails" against Pokemon such as Milotic, Blastoise, Slowbro, and Slowking.
• It has the ability to check various Special threats such as Rotom and Mismagius.
• Still beats Pokemon that it needs to beat such as Steelix and Registeel.
• Will mention that Roar and Stone Edge should be chosen based on whether you have something to deal with Mismagius, Rotom, and Moltres, or something to deal with Rock Polish Torterra, SubPunch Aggron, and DD Feraligatr.

Click to expand...

@ Franky/Fuzznip: Oversimplifying something into a sentence saying "it can survive a Moltres Fireblast" or saying that the only difference is Stone Edge and the EVs is completely inaccurate.

If you think it makes sense to stuff all of those things into a single paragraph in AC then OK.

Sorry for sorta reviving this but if you were to sum it up in AC the why not say " A spread of 252 HP / 88 Att / 188 SpD will alow you to survive special attacks much more easily " the you could list off what it survives with the spread. ( please note that i think this would deserve a set by it self, i'm just saying what you should say if you have to talk about it in AC)

252 + 88 + 188 = 528 so I'm confused.

And I'm agreeing with most that a paragraph can be written on the standard set with this spread and a few comments of how it's effective, but a new set isn't needed.

franky said:

I agree with the comparison between physical and special skarmory brought up by whistle. This should be given a mentioned, but it totally doesn't deserve an entire set of its own. A single paragraph in AC shouldn't be too difficult. In a nutshell, you can even say it along the lines of something like this, "You can pump up its Special Defense stat in order to comfortably stay in on several special threats such as Moltres, Mismagius, and Rotom."

Click to expand...

The Skarmory analysis on-site said:

[SET]
name: Spiker
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Roost
move 3: Spikes / Stealth Rock
move 4: Whirlwind
item: Shed Shell / Leftovers
ability: Keen Eye
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 176 Def / 16 Spe

...

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Roost
move 3: Spikes
move 4: Whirlwind
item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
ability: Keen Eye
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

Click to expand...

If anything, you've proven the point. The sets operate differently, have different spreads, and in the case of Donphan, even run different moves.

Thund91 said:

252 + 88 + 188 = 528 so I'm confused.

Click to expand...

Should have been 68 Attack nice catch!

And as SDS has shown, you guys have no ground on the "what's on site" argument because of SDS's objective Skarmory set comparison. Every one of your arguments applies to Skarmory as well:

whistle said:

the moves on the set are essentially the same; "standard" Skarmory is essentially a combination of Roost + Brave Bird + Whirlwind and either Stealth Rock or Spikes.

Click to expand...

franky said:

IIn a nutshell, you can even say it along the lines of something like this, "You can pump up its Special Defense stat in order to comfortably stay in on several special threats such as Vaporeon, Latias, and Swampert"

Click to expand...

Fuzznip said:

I don't think a similar set with just an EV spread change and "comfortably surviving MixMence's Fire Blast (the hardest hitting move this Skarmory needs to take)" suggests a new set should be added, either. You can easily mention this in the set already on-site, exactly what franky said above. The EV spread is pretty much the only differences to the standard set, so it's not difficult to explain that in one or two sentences.

Click to expand...

This especially shows my point, since I actually needed to remove a main difference between the Donphan sets.

Berserker Lord said:

Sorry for sorta reviving this but if you were to sum it up in AC the why not say " A spread of 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD will alow you to survive special attacks much more easily " the you could list off what it survives with the spread. ( please note that i think this would deserve a set by it self, i'm just saying what you should say if you have to talk about it in AC)

Click to expand...

So, no, if Skarmory has a set, then by your logic Donphan should as well.

If anything, I think there should need to be significant opposition to not following the precedent already set by Skarmory.

Synre/ToF what are your thoughts? Whistle reconsider?

What is the benefit of Stone Edge over Head Smash, given that they have the same Accuracy and PP? Is the HP loss not worth the increased power?

Deck Knight said:

What is the benefit of Stone Edge over Head Smash, given that they have the same Accuracy and PP? Is the HP loss not worth the increased power?

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It tends to really damage his longevity. Also, it doesn't OHKO spin blockers, which would be one of the main reasons to accept the recoil damage.

neither you nor sds has provided any reasoning that i didn't take into account in my original post so why would i reconsider? obviously there are differences between the two donphan sets that are shared with the two skarmory sets (moves, a few shared targets), but the main reason why there are two skarmory sets is that there are a wealth of pokemon that can be set up on by one set but not the other. the same is not true for donphan; the majority of the pokemon it switches in on are the same regardless of whether it has special defense investment or not. the only difference between the sets involve attacks that deal 80%+ to it. i'm not using that as a reason why the set sucks, but rather as a warrant to prove that the sets are at their core too similar defensively.

whistle said:

neither you nor sds has provided any reasoning that i didn't take into account in my original post so why would i reconsider? obviously there are differences between the two donphan sets that are shared with the two skarmory sets (moves, a few shared targets), but the main reason why there are two skarmory sets is that there are a wealth of pokemon that can be set up on by one set but not the other. the same is not true for donphan; the majority of the pokemon it switches in on are the same regardless of whether it has special defense investment or not. the only difference between the sets involve attacks that deal 80%+ to it. i'm not using that as a reason why the set sucks, but rather as a warrant to prove that the sets are at their core too similar defensively.

Click to expand...

This. I honestly feel the onus is on you, Heysup, to prove that this set operates sufficiently differently to standard Donphan, and yet whistle (and Fuzznip... and I, even, not that I matter here but just saying) remain completely unconvinced. Special Defense Skarmory plays very differently to the physical one because it comes in on different Pokémon and sets up. From what you guys have proven, all these EVs accomplish is allowing Donphan to survive several things, not come in and set up on them, in which case they should be mentioned in a separate paragraph for the benefits they can bring. As whistle said, this Donphan isn't coming on many new things. As I understand, you still just play it like a normal Donphan, except for a few differences which do not seem to separate them enough. With two sets as radically different as phys and special Skarm, two almost identical sets are fair enough because of their differences; and yet I must add that this is not about Skarmory but Donphan. It has been sufficiently proven in the past to the satisfaction of most people that the two Skarm sets are different, so that's done and dusted. What matters here is that you guys need to prove Donphan is deserving of the same precedent. And all I see is that it survives Moltres's Fire Blast, which isn't as big a difference, especially as you aren't setting up on it. I'm not knocking the set since I know nothing about UU, but I don't think it deserves a separate spot.

Deck Knight said:

What is the benefit of Stone Edge over Head Smash, given that they have the same Accuracy and PP? Is the HP loss not worth the increased power?

Click to expand...

Head Smash has recoil...on a defensive set that is not a good plan. Head Smash was only good for OHKOing Froslass which has been banned.

whistle said:

neither you nor sds has provided any reasoning that i didn't take into account in my original post so why would i reconsider? obviously there are differences between the two donphan sets that are shared with the two skarmory sets (moves, a few shared targets), but the main reason why there are two skarmory sets is that there are a wealth of pokemon that can be set up on by one set but not the other. the same is not true for donphan; the majority of the pokemon it switches in on are the same regardless of whether it has special defense investment or not. the only difference between the sets involve attacks that deal 80%+ to it. i'm not using that as a reason why the set sucks, but rather as a warrant to prove that the sets are at their core too similar defensively.

Click to expand...

jumpluff said:

This. I honestly feel the onus is on you, Heysup, to prove that this set operates sufficiently differently to standard Donphan, and yet whistle (and Fuzznip... and I, even, not that I matter here but just saying) remain completely unconvinced. Special Defense Skarmory plays very differently to the physical one because it comes in on different Pokémon and sets up. From what you guys have proven, all these EVs accomplish is allowing Donphan to survive several things, not come in and set up on them, in which case they should be mentioned in a separate paragraph for the benefits they can bring. As whistle said, this Donphan isn't coming on many new things. As I understand, you still just play it like a normal Donphan, except for a few differences which do not seem to separate them enough. With two sets as radically different as phys and special Skarm, two almost identical sets are fair enough because of their differences; and yet I must add that this is not about Skarmory but Donphan. It has been sufficiently proven in the past to the satisfaction of most people that the two Skarm sets are different, so that's done and dusted. What matters here is that you guys need to prove Donphan is deserving of the same precedent. And all I see is that it survives Moltres's Fire Blast, which isn't as big a difference, especially as you aren't setting up on it. I'm not knocking the set since I know nothing about UU, but I don't think it deserves a separate spot.

Click to expand...

I don't see the logic here. Whistle brought up Skarmory, and literally everything brought up against Donphan applies to Skarmory as well, in fact, it even applies more-so to Skarmory.

At the bolded:

I bolded the only thing that you are referring to. That's not even one whole reason that this set is different. Can I ask why you are so adamant in overlooking everything else?

Look at the Pokemon I listed in the OP. You are just focusing on the one hardest-hitting attack and saying "that's the only difference on the set, so it isn't worth it". That's like saying "Skarmory surviving MixMence Fire Blast isn't a good enough reason to have it's own set" when it's only, obviously, an example of an attack that Skarmory survives (and still takes a lot of damage from). With Skarmory, there's also Latias, Swampert, and the like in addition to MixMence in exchange for walling defensive threats. With Donphan, there's also Mismagius, Rotom, Venusaur, and the like in addition to Moltres, Houndoom, and Milotic in exchange for offensive power for taking out specific Pokemon.

I have proven that the set is different (whether or not you (franky, whistle, Fuzznip, and jumpluff) choose to ignore 95% of the OP is a different matter :/). So, again, why should we not follow the precedent set by Skarmory that Donphan actually surpasses in terms of differences?

Ok, whistle you noob, the arguments you presented about Steelix and Skarmory actually help Heysup's argument because since they play differently, they deserve different sets. The only thing I would doubt is how many people would actually use this set, which is virtually none IMO. I think relying on Donphan to solely RAPID SPIN against some special defensive threats is not exactly amazing if you get my drift.

Baitlix was also considered to be removed because of its relative ineffectiveness during the Froslass / Raikou metagame. I feel like this is a similar set. Recovery is a huge thing in the metagame, and I dunno if I'd even want Donphan to spin at the cost of ~80%.

I'm willing to give the set a chance and put it up. However, I think it should be removed upon view of the stats a few months down the road if it fails to be a commonly used set.

Therefore, for now:

This may be a Late answer but i did say i was in afvor of making this a completly different set in my post but i was just posting what you would have to have said if it was forced to be AC, nothing more. ( sorry if i misinterpreted your post Heysup)

Tried this set, and it seems too situational to me. I haven't had any extraordinary bouts of success with it nor would I have been disadvantaged in any particular scenario had I used the standard set. I don't doubt that it does all the things you say and possibly more, but it seems to me that this is just worthy of a mention as an alternate spread in the standard set.

I guess that means we are going to have to wait and see what Synre says.