Glaceon (Update)

Updated with G/P Check 2 / 2

i[Overview]

<p>Glaceon is a flawed Pokemon whose unique assets are somewhat overshadowed by its weaknesses. While STAB Ice attacks are very useful, Glaceon's limited movepool gives it few tools to abuse its huge Special Attack stat with. Glaceon's low Speed forces it to rely on its defenses, which, while decent, are largely wasted due to Glaceon's lack of resistances and multitude of weaknesses (including one from Stealth Rock).</p>

<p>It's not all bad news, however. Glaceon finds a niche on hail teams, where it can abuse its immensely powerful Blizzard and avoid some attacks thanks to its Snow Cloak ability. The fact that nothing is immune to Ice, together with Glaceon's lack of coverage, means that more often than not it is preferable to abuse the boosts of Choice items rather than maintain the ability to switch attacks. Overall, few teams specifically prepare for Glaceon, which may just lead to their frosty doom.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Blizzard
move 2: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
nature: Timid / Modest
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Glaceon's low Speed and high Special Attack make Choice Scarf the best option for its item. With a Choice Scarf and a Timid nature, Glaceon can outspeed Pokemon with a base Speed of 120, which includes all of UU and NU (except for Swellow and Electrode). Blizzard does plenty of damage even without a boost, making Glaceon a potent revenge killer under hail conditions. Many frail sweepers, such as Alakazam, are OHKOed by Blizzard after Stealth Rock, which means that Glaceon is extremely threatening to offensively-oriented teams. This set can also be used with Choice Specs and a Modest nature, which shifts the focus from overwhelming sweepers to breaking past walls. Glaceon generally functions better in the former role, however, as it is easily revenge killed without Choice Scarf's Speed boost.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Hidden Power Ground adds coverage against Fire-types and Aggron, and allows Glaceon to at least dent Registeel. Hidden Power Grass is only recommended in conjunction with Choice Specs, as the Special Attack boost is required in order to 2HKO Bold Milotic. Baton Pass allows Glaceon to scout its counters, and is extremely effective together with Dugtrio to trap Registeel and Fire-types. Ice Beam lets Glaceon function outside of hail, but Shadow Ball is an option to provide coverage on Slowbro and Slowking, as well as the rare Jynx and Grumpig. If you are using Choice Specs and Hidden Power Grass, you can use Water Pulse, which OHKOes most Fire-types after Stealth Rock damage. However, the low Base Power makes it generally unappealing.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Snover is highly recommended to provide hail support and help Glaceon deal with bulky Water-types. Dugtrio is also indispensable for trapping Registeel, Chansey, and Fire-types. If you dislike using Dugtrio, Rhyperior and Donphan are great options for punishing Registeel and Chansey switch-ins. Fighting-types can work similarly, especially those who can 2HKO Milotic. Defensively, bulky Water-types are good teammates as they provide a resistance to Fire and can often counter Rock-types who can threaten Glaceon. Slowbro and Slowking resist Fighting-type attacks as well, and can spread paralysis for Specs Glaceon to abuse. In general, Fire is the most important weakness to cover, since most Rock- and Fighting-types will take massive damage from Blizzard. Glaceon also benefits from Rapid Spin support, due to Stealth Rock seriously limiting its longevity. Hitmontop, Donphan, Blastoise, and Claydol can all use Rapid Spin and provide resistances to types that Glaceon is weak to.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Glaceon can work well as a recipient of Baton Passed boosts, especially Speed boosts. In this role, it can use the boosts for its own attacks and then pass them on when it gets low on health. Glaceon can equip a Life Orb and use its low Speed to run a Trick Room set with three attacks and Wish, although the lack of coverage means that it will be easy for the opponent to stall until Trick Room runs out. Wish can also fit on the Choice set over Baton Pass, especially if you have good switch-ins to Glaceon's common counters. With decent defenses and access to Heal Bell and Wish, Glaceon can run a defensive set, especially under hail conditions. However, it is generally outclassed by Articuno in a defensive role, who has much higher defenses, more resistances, Roost, and Pressure.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Glaceon's primary counters are Registeel, Chansey, and Milotic, although Milotic fears Specs Hidden Power Grass. Slowking deserves a special mention as a counter as any set without Hidden Power Grass or Shadow Ball will be walled endlessly by it. Most other Water-types do well, although those who lack reliable recovery will eventually succumb to repeated attacks and hail damage. Poliwrath is a good option since it can threaten Glaceon with Fighting-type attacks. Water/Ice-types, while rare, can easily take any attack that isn't Hidden Power Grass, and hit back with neutral Water-type attacks. Fire-types are decent checks, although they must be wary of Hidden Power Ground or Specs Water Pulse when switching in. Arcanine stands out among these as it has decent special bulk to cushion hits from Blizzard and even Hidden Power Ground. Hitmontop and Hitmonlee have the Special Defense to take a hit and can threaten back with super effective priority moves. Thick Fat Hariyama can easily take on Ice attacks and threaten back with STAB Fighting moves. Stealth Rock makes wearing down Glaceon much easier, as it will have to switch out a lot if it runs up against a bulky Ice resist.</p>

I don't know if this can be fit into the analysis at all, maybe in AC, but I've had phenomanal success with Glaceon as a Trick Room sweeper and Choice Specs user (and both together). For the Trick Room Sweeper I just used the spread from the Special Attacker set and shoved whatever EV's would normally go into Speed into HP and Def, (I suck at EV's so I had trouble finding a decent spread, though both Max HP or Max Defense were both good), made the Speed IV 0, and stuck with Modest as the nature.

I know Choice Specs would be a terrible idea for something with an extremely shallow movepool and a SR weakness to boot, but I just couldn't ignore the power Glaceon's Choice Specs Ice Beam presents, (it's nearly on par with Alakazam's Choice Specs Psychic!)

Of course there could be a mention of Snover as a team mate as well, since he summons Hail to activate Glaceon's Snow Cloak and gives her a 100% accurate Blizzard as well.

And yah, Curse Glaceon sucks... a lot.

Pre-testing notes:

No mention of Specs? It was quite the powerhouse before the BLs dropped, although I'm not sure how viable it is now. I've seen Wish sets used to a degree of success as well, but again, I'm not completely sure how viable one would be having not extensively tested it yet.

I've never thought very highly of the Fake Tears set - from my encounters with it, it's pretty easy to play around, and even with the Special Defense drops, Glaceon still struggles to get past certain Pokemon (like Milotic)

A Wish staller set is really fun and effective, but I haven't used once since the Staraptor days. I used to use it with Roar and it was actually doing really well in Roaring out Raikou and OHKOing Starptor as CC didn't OHKO.

Maybe I'll test it again with a bit of modifications and post it in here.

Thund91 said:

A Wish staller set is really fun and effective, but I haven't used once since the Staraptor days. I used to use it with Roar and it was actually doing really well in Roaring out Raikou and OHKOing Starptor as CC didn't OHKO.

Maybe I'll test it again with a bit of modifications and post it in here.

Click to expand...

Oh god, I remember some VERY bad experiences trying to break this a long time ago.

On Choice Scarf: Possibly slash in Choice Specs for a super powerful, slow attacker. I think Baton Pass should be slashed with Shadow Ball, and leave Ice Beam as a primary option. It really sucks to lose your weather not have a good STAB move to use, and Baton Pass is not nearly as important on Glaceon than on Espeon (Pursuit and SR weakness).

Choice specs is definitely worth a mention. With it, Glaceon does huge amounts to anything...

Case in point, with Max Sp. A, Blizzard does 38% minimum to Chansey. This means that it will 2HKO it in the hail with SR and one spikes layer or t-spikes layer (one, not two)... that's pretty impressive. Plus it has great defenses to tank hits with to make up for its terrible speed.

The best part about specs though, is that you can just literally spam blizzard due to its godly power. Everything it hits for neutral bar Chansey and possibly clefable is going to be KO'd or come really close...

I would just like to second the viabiltiy of a wish staller set, though its such a simple set any poke can use I dont know if Glaceon pulls it off spectacularly enough to deserve its own analysis.

A simple moveset of Wish/Protect/Ice Beam/Toxic makes great use of Glaceon's defenses, and even without EV investment Ice Beam off that base SpA is strong when unresisted. The only EV spread I've used is 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD, with the emphasis on Special Defense because its weaknesses (fire, fighting, rock and steel) tend to come in the form of physical attacks like Flare Blitz, Close Combat and Stone Edge, and its neutralities tend towards special attacks (Surf, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, etc...) Not a spread I thought too much about so I'm sure it can be perfected, and while I haven't tried Thund's Roar set I think the move would especially useful against Mismagius who sub or Milotic who resttalk.

My apologies guys, when this fell to the second page for a while I completely stopped checking up on it. I'll need some time to get to that testing / updating, but I'll update as I do.

I want to point out that the Special Attacker set really isn't supposed to be a "Fake Tears" set. Fake Tears is really just for breaking through stuff with Recover / Softboiled that you can't 2HKO, like Milotic and Chansey. Most of the time it should be attacking.

Also, while I'll test a Wish staller set, I have a feeling defensive sets will be outclassed by Articuno. Unless it proves to be extremely effective at getting those Wishes to heal teammates, it seems like SubRoost Articuno would spread Toxic more easily, and bulky Articuno would Roar / Heal Bell more effectively.

Yeah this definitely needs a Specs set. Literally the only good thing about being an Ice type is having STAB Ice Beam/Blizzard, and Glaceon is strong enough and fast enough to really put a hurting on stall teams with less bulky/without pink blobs. Specs HP Electric/Grass 2hkos Milotic, for instance, and Specs Ice Beam 2hkos even max/max Clefable even if it doesn't have Leftovers (with a small chance if it does) while pretty much always 2hkoing everything else. Some other cool calcs include:

Specs Ice Beam versus 252/0 Azumarill: 38.2% - 45.1% (small chance of a 2hko after rocks if no lefties)

Ah I did more but I have to go now, but yeah do the specs set, will comment more later.

I've taken the liberty to actually test these stuff out since i'm wacking around on the ladder for a bit. I came across Glaceon and thought i'd test these anyways. my two cents:

-the special attacker set is really really poor. here's why:

• sr weakness and poor typing discourages it from switching in stuff and threatening them
• low speed means it has to come in on a slow wall. however, there aren't many walls to switch in to that glaceon can remotely threaten. donphan maybe? sr + eq will hurt it a lot though. ultimately, the poor typing makes it difficult to switch into stuff. you add lo to the mix, damage will quickly pile up.
• lastly, the lack of coverage makes this set completely saddening in terms of actually hurting stuff ONCE you switch in.

-suggesting a specs set too as eo mentioned. once it comes in it can spam boosted blizzards hurting stuff for hard damage. i think the specs set outclasses the special attacking set anyways because you'll be spamming stab ice beam for the most part instead of the other coverage.

Other than that, I think this is quite impressive. Baton Pass + Dugtrio was really a cool selling point for the Scarf set. It will work with the Specs so don't forget to mention that. I've also used Choice Scarf Glaceon in the lead slot for the fun and for the sole purpose of fishing out its counters early. A quick Baton Pass to Dugtrio at the start of the match was effective. my two cents

i agree with everything franky said about the special attacker. even when you put it on a team with spin + dugtrio + etc support it still doesn't perform too well. i mean it looks good in theory, though, so if you have logs of it working well... maybe i'm (we're) just not using it right?

I mean, it's not exactly a shining star, but I've gotten decent results out of it. I've been using it on bulky offense teams. I've also been using stuff like Torterra, Arcanine, and Donphan in lieu of Dugtrio, who doesn't really fit well on those teams. I'm thinking Dugtrio might not be the best fit for that set because it's easily revenge killed, and heavy offense (where Dugtrio fits best) hates things that invite revenge killing. Surrounded by pokes with immunities and decent bulk, it stands a better chance of working. It also does much better when you know the opponent's team a little bit, since you pretty much need to hit things on the switch. Also, Rapid Spin just destroys it. It's usefulness relies on being able to take pretty strong moves at high health and hit back, which SR totally ruins. When it was working well, it was forcing switches against slower teams and causing a lot of damage. However, against fast teams usually the best it can do is get one revenge kill and then be revenge killed itself.

I see the limitations of the set, so I'm not going to argue if you remove it. I felt it was an improvement to the on-site set, but I guess there's no reason Glaceon needs an attacker set. I'm going to test a similar set for Trick Room, and if it works out better there I may just replace the set with that anyway.

Due to the criticism I was retesting the Special Attacker tonight, but next on my list is Specs, then Trick Room, then Wish staller.

I recently noticed today that Glaceon has Barrier... is it worth passing?

Something like this?

name: Baton Pass
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Baton Pass
move 3: Barrier
move 4: Wish
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

(EVs and nature are not necessarily optimal though)

oh and CS set is missing its item

Ok, I'm conceding that the LO set probably isn't reliable enough to go on site, even if it's fun to use. It has it's moments, sure, but we probably don't want to encourage new players to use it. : /

I replaced it with the Trick Room set, which works much better - Glaceon goes from suck to win when it can out-pace everything.

There's really not much need for a TR set...

Seven Deadly Sins said:

There's kind of an "unwritten rule" of Pokemon where anything with even a marginally low Speed stat can pick up a Trick Room set and start rolling. Pokemon such as Azumarill, Rhyperior, and Machamp perform extremely well in Trick Room, but there's a reason that they don't have a Trick Room analysis. Trick Room basically boils down to "take all the Speed off of an attacking set and stick it in HP, then use a -Spe nature". It doesn't take a special set.

Click to expand...

Anyway, no commentary at all about Barrier?

@ Breludicolo - Actually I think Glaceon is a special case for having a Trick Room analysis. Glaceon is one of the few Special attacking sweepers that thrive under Trick Room, alongside Clamperl, Camerupt, and... not much else. Glaceon has waaayy more bulk than Clamperl and better Defense than Camerupt, removing the absolute need for Screen support. She also has STAB on Ice, which wrecks half the tier, and her coverage moves ensure that she isn't really walled by anything except Registeel which her teammates shouldn't have trouble in getting rid of.

Plus, most people when they see any of the Eeveelutions usually think high speed + high other stat, which is the case for half of them (Jolteon, Espeon, Leafeon). The other half are well known for being slow and/or bulky (Vaporeon, Umbreon, lolFlareon). When people look at Glaceon, their immediate reaction usually isn't going to be, "oh hey look, that thing could be kick-ass on a Trick Room team", they're going to go for a Specs, Hail or Scarf set or just say "why use this and not Espeon?", when indeed Trick Room is definately one of the best sets Glaceon can run and the rest really can't nor most of the tier.

Well... I'm bored, and it's quite clear

Inspired by Flashrider

name: Misshax
move 1: Blizzard
move 2: Sand Attack
move 3: Wish
move 4: HP Ground
item: Brightpowder
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Could anybody tell me what move accuracy is after Sand attack? App. 54% chance to hit. Take into account that it has weaknesses to fire (I.E. Fire blast) and Rock (I.E. Stone Edge) and you see this is not half bad...

Otherwise, I suggest you split the choice sets. It's not unlike hitmonlee, where there are two viable items but they play differently

-Tangrowth
-Mesprit (good setter too)
-Slowking (great setter)
-Exeggutor (somewhat good setter)
-Ampharos
-Cacturne
-Gorebyss

Excepting Slowking, they all have 110+ base SpA and quite a few are even able to set up TR. For one, I'd even say exeggutor is better, as it can run Leaf storm (as opposed to base 95 ice beam), as is slowking (who can set up with nasty plot)

glaceon is not that special in TR, nor do virtually any of the non-psychic type pokemon have any notes about trick room

- Tangrowth has little reliable special options besides Leaf Storm
- Mesprit isn't "slow" enough to be used effectively in Trick Room as stuff like (assuming no Speed investment) Rhyperior, Spiritomb and Registeel/Regirock will "outspeed" and put a stop to the sweep (it is a good setter though)
- Slowking or Slowbro should probably be on the team anyway so I won't argue that
- I'll admit I forgot Ampharos, but Glaceon's 130 Sp Atk seriously outweighs Ampharos' already impressive base 115
- Cacturne can function extremely well in Trick Room, but Cacturne functions even better in Sandstorm, and even on a Trick Room team Cacturne will probably be physical so that Cacturne can effectively use Sucker Punch outside of it
- And Glaceon's 130 base Special attack outweighs Gorebyss' 114, and Gorebyss functions better in Rain Dance teams.

So honestly, if Glaceon performs arguably the best out of all that you listed, Glaceon should be the one with a Trick Room analysis, and the others should go without one.

Again though, no commments about the misshax set?

Seven Deadly Sins said:

Trick Room basically boils down to "take all the Speed off of an attacking set and stick it in HP, then use a -Spe nature". It doesn't take a special set.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying it is bad in TR or outclassed. What I'm saying is that there is no need to put such an analysis on because it does not involve doing anything other than the bold.

Trick Room basically boils down to "take all the Speed off of an attacking set and stick it in HP, then use a -Spe nature". It doesn't take a special set.

Click to expand...

Glaceon isn't getting "an attacking set". I can see why we wouldn't want every slow pokemon getting a Trick Room set, but Glaceon really has no comparable set, so it's not like we'd be clogging the analysis with a redundant set. I'm curious to see what the QC people have to say about this, but for now I think it's fine.

As for the Misshax set - if you can post logs of it working well against decent players, I'll test it. I'm extremely skeptical of it, though. I'd much rather hit my counter with a Blizzard or Hidden Power than fool around with a coin flip to see whether I get to launch a damage move or not. I'd also much rather have Protect in my moveset. The only hax sets I've ever seen work either use Thunder Wave + Serene Grace flinchhax, or are capable of setting up on a miss / para (i.e. Cacturne, Froslass). I'm vetoing this until I see evidence.

Trick Room set: I'm unsure about this. The issue with Glaceon is that its coverage moves are extremely weak, so it's much more easily walled than other Trick Room sweepers. While it does have some utility, as it can eliminate certain Pokemon that other sweepers like Marowak / Rhyperior struggle against (i.e. Donphan and Torterra), most Trick Roomers can handle them anyway (Exeggutor, Slowbro/king, Claydol, Porygon2 to various extents). Stealth Rock weakness sucks too, especially since you're not going to have much time to spin. So...I'm not really sold on it. Basically, it has its niche, but I don't really think it warrants a set, although it should at the very least be mentioned in AC. My two cents. Also, for the record, Sleep Talk > anything in the last slot; Glaceon really can't waste Trick Room turns not attacking.

Everything else looks fine. Defensive set isn't that useful, as Glaceon has only one resistance; agreeing that it's fine in OC. In regard to the hax-reliant set, just use Glaceon under hail; nine times out of ten you're better off spamming Blizzard rather than Sand Attack. I don't think it's worthy of mention.

QC Approved 1/2

I'm not really a big fan of the TR set either. I'd just mention it in the AC of the Choice set; Glaceon is easily walled by the most common Pokemon in the tier, which is not a good quality in a TR attacker. At least with Specs it can 2hko Milotic with HP Grass with some minor residual damage...

Looks good otherwise. I was trying to think of some other moves to suggest for the Choice set but goddamn Glaceon has a shitty movepool. I guess you could probably squeeze in Wish on the AC or slashed in with Baton Pass, you trade dry passing for some minor team support.

Bumping this; I'll move it once changes to the OP are made.