Blastoise (OU Lead)

Hello, guys!
Ok, after some intense testing i'm here to show this good anti lead:


Status: QC approved (3/3).

Status: 2/2 GPs.

DONE!



http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/blastoise


[Overview]
<p>You might wonder why you would use Blastoise in OU, as he doesn't have the greatest stats and seems to be outclassed by some of the other bulky Water-type Pokémon. As a Rapid Spinner, Starmie greatly outclasses him since it can take down Rotom-A. Despite this, Blastoise does have one unique niche: he can function as an effective OU anti-lead. However, Blastoise fails to deal heavy damage to both Water- and Grass-type Pokémon, meaning that those Pokémon can easily set up on him. Starmie is also more effective outside of the lead position, as it is capable of outspeeding many opposing Pokémon that Blastoise cannot.</p>

[SET]
name: OU Lead
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Rapid Spin
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Blastoise can make an effective OU lead because of his ability to act as a mesh of two similar leads; he combines the Rapid Spinning capabilities of Starmie with the bulk and priority of Empoleon. Hydro Pump hits many leads extremely hard; it is capable of 2HKOing Metagross, Swampert, Jirachi, Machamp, and many other leads. Aqua Jet finishes off frail Pokémon who use a Focus Sash such as Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Infernape, while Rapid Spin removes Stealth Rock and other entry hazards set up by opposing leads. Ice Beam rounds out the set as a 100% accurate move that can smash through Gliscor and Dragonite leads.</p>

<p>The choice of item is an important one. Life Orb allows Blastoise to 2HKO Metagross, Swampert, Jirachi, and Machamp leads 100% of the time and gives Blastoise a chance to 2HKO Colbur Azelf leads with Hydro Pump + Aqua Jet. However, with Lum Berry, Blastoise has a better chance of beating Machamp leads, as he 2HKOes with Hydro Pump (not counting accuracy) 80% of the time; if using Life Orb instead, Blastoise has to hope he doesn't get hurt by confusion. Additionally, Lum Berry lets Blastoise beat Smeargle leads while still maintaining about an 80% chance to 2HKO the aforementioned Pokémon.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>A Modest nature along with maximum Special Attack EVs, allows Blastoise to hit as hard as possible, while 112 Speed EVs let Blastoise outspeed max Speed Jirachi after it Tricks him a Choice Scarf, allowing him to 2HKO with Hydro Pump. The remaining EVs go in HP to boost Blastoise's overall bulk. These HP EVs also let Blastoise survive a Thunderbolt from defensive Rotom-A, end up in Torrent range, and KO back with a boosted Hydro Pump. No Attack EVs are needed because Aqua Jet should only be used to finish off frail Pokémon. Hidden Power Electric may be used over Ice Beam to prevent Gyarados from setting up, but then Dragonite is able to set up freely.</p>

<p>Blastoise has problems with Grass-type leads like Roserade and Celebi because they can immediately threaten Blastoise with a STAB Grass-type attack. Therefore, a partner that resists Grass-type moves is helpful. Heatran is a good choice as a partner because he resists Grass-type moves and, after the Special Attack drop from Leaf Storm, neither Hidden Power Ground nor Earth Power will be doing too much to Heatran; meanwhile, Heatran can retaliate with his choice of a STAB Fire-type move. If Heatran has Roar, he can also deal with Ninjask leads, removingthe accumulated boosts by phazing the opposing Pokémon. Specially defensive Roserade can also work if she switches into Leaf Storm, as she has Natural Cure to counter the effects of Sleep Powder, isn't threatened by Hidden Power Fire or Ice after the Special Attack drop, and can absorb Toxic Spikes. Roserade can also switch into Thunderbolt from Starmie, survive an Ice Beam, and retaliate with her Grass-type attack.</p>

[Team Options]
<p>Blastoise appreciates somebody who can switch into Grass-type Pokémon like Roserade and Celebi, both of whom can immediately threaten him. Heatran is a great teammate because he has the bulk to take their attacks and the attacking capabilities to deal heavy damage to both of them with a STAB Fire-type move. Additionally, Blastoise struggles against bulky Water-type Pokémon like Vaporeon and Suicune. A Grass-type Pokémon such as Celebi, Shaymin, or Roserade can effectively check those bulky Water-types. Roserade is a great choice because shecan absorb Toxic Spikes and also set up her own entry hazards.</p>

<p>Gyarados can be a problem if Blastoise doesn't use Hidden Power Electric. Rotom-A can be helpful for stopping Gyarados with its ability to either outspeed while holding a Choice Scarf or tank a Waterfall and strike back with Thunderbolt. Furthermore, Pokémon such as Jirachi and Suicune who can set up Calm Minds are problematic, and if Blastoise doesn't use Ice Beam, then Dragonite will also be a problem, while Kingdra will be troublesome for all Blastoise. Swampert can use Roar or Earthquake to deal with Jirachi (if it doesn't carry Grass Knot), check Dragonite with Ice Beam, and Roar away Kingdra before he can acquire too many Dragon Dances.</p>

[Optional Changes]
<p>Blastoise can utilize a Choice Specs set to abuse Water Spout. Backed with STAB and the boost from Choice Specs, anything that doesn't resist it will be severely dented. However, the support required to use him effectively, which comprises of a Rapid Spinner to remove entry hazards, a Fire-type Pokémon to scare away Celebi and Shaymin, and a Grass-type Pokémon to scare away bulky Water-type Pokémon like Suicune and Vaporeon, means that it will be difficult to pull off a sweep with him. Should you choose to use that set, a Timid nature with max Speed should be used to outspeed max Speed Adamant Lucario. If using a Modest nature, 208 Speed EVs are needed to outspeed max Speed Tyranitar.</p>

<p>Alternatively, Blastoise can run a defensive set that utilizes Rapid Spin. However, Blastoise, unlike Starmie, fails to deal heavy damage to Rotom-A, the premier spinblocker in the OU metagame. Blastoise can run Foresight and Rapid Spin to bypass Rotom-A, but can only do this once as Rotom-A can 2HKO with Thunderbolt. Roar and Yawn can both phaze the opposing Pokémon to remove any boosts, while Toxic can cripple incoming Water-type Pokémon.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Both Roserade and Celebi can switch into even a Life Orb Ice Beam and KO Blastoise with their STAB attacks. Vaporeon and Suicune can both wall attacks from Blastoise and utilize either Wish or Calm Mind to stall out Blastoise. Rotom-A can switch into Blastoise's Rapid Spin and deal heavy damage with Thunderbolt, but should be wary of a Torrent-boosted Hydro Pump. Blissey will stop Blastoise dead in his tracks and can whittle him down with Toxic or Seismic Toss. Gyarados, whom Blastoise can only stop by using Hidden Power Electric, can also switch in and begin to set up Dragon Dances. Kingdra, like Gyarados, also doesn't take much damage from Blastoise's hits and can set up Dragon Dances.</p>

Inferior Starmie, no thanks.

When are you using Aqua Jet when you have Rapid Spin? Emp uses Aqua Jet on things with a Focus Sash, but for Blastiose he'd rather Rapid Spin away that last 1 HP to eliminate rocks.

ive faced this lead a few times on ladder, it's decent I will admit that but I feel that empo and starmie do a better job as a lead, especially since this set carries rapid spin, starmie does a better job at this. I am not completely rejecting this set, but it would be nice if you post some calcs on common leads and explanations of how it beats certain leads.

I would go for Water Spout+Aqua Jet on the first two spots but either way Blastoise might not be fast enough to score the first spout before rocks are set up and then there are the problems with sashes but still Aqua Jet takes care of that.

Aqua Jet is a "tool" against some opposing leads:

Smeargle (faster, commonly carries Focus Sash. It will just Spore you twice without Aqua Jet)
Azelf (same as above: it will Explode on you if you lack Aqua Jet)
Ninjask

They are the most impotant ones.

@SDS: Blastoise has the bulk over Starmie: also found that Scarf Rotom (often a switch to stop Rapid Spin) deals 75% minimun with Thunderbolt, exactly on Torrent range: so if Blastoise has full health you can use Blastoise as a lure and KO Rotom with Hydro Pump+Aqua Jet.

Also Blastoise is one lead that can beat Machamp with no worries.

M BLADE said:

Aqua Jet is a "tool" against some opposing leads:

Smeargle (faster, commonly carries Focus Sash. It will just Spore you twice without Aqua Jet)
Azelf (same as above: it will Explode on you if you lack Aqua Jet)
Ninjask

Click to expand...

Smeargle has 8 Base Speed less than Blastoise
Ninjask - Anything can beat Ninjask

Chris is me said:

Smeargle has 8 Base Speed less than Blastoise
Ninjask - Anything can beat Ninjask

Click to expand...

Smeargle is faster against this Blastoise, who runs only a little amount of speed EVs (and Smeargle without speed EVs is as good as defenisive Shedinja >_>).

Sorry this is a crappy starmie or empoleon lead, I have tried this on the ladder and I didn't like the results

To anyone who wants to say it's a bad Starmie, you're actually going to have to answer the points he made in the OP rather than dismissing it out of hand. Starmie has significantly less bulk (53766 defensiveness on both sides against 81420/84870 is immense) and a Pursuit/U-turn/Shadow Ball weakness. Blastoise is slower, but has Aqua Jet to partially make up for it's speed. Starmie has a grand total of 4 more Special Attack (about 1% more), so you can't really argue from that. I guess Starmie has Thunderbolt, which is cool. There may be a good argument which no one has so far presented, but don't directly dismiss sets without providing reasoning to counter the poster's points.

Technically I don't "have" to do anything, but if you're going to make a big deal out of it...

The main issue is midgame utility or the lack thereof. Starmie's massive Speed advantage means that it can do cool stuff like tie with Azelf and Spin on its sash. It can check Gyara and Mence midgame. It can run Recover which makes up for its "lower bulk". It can clean up lategame. Natural Cure means that it can absorb status attacks aimed at your team. Did I mention that it doesn't suck as much midgame? Because it doesn't.

It's the worst of both worlds. It doesn't have the cleaning power and speed of Starmie, and it doesn't have the neat set of resistances of Empoleon. Empoleon can also lay Stealth Rock and deal with Swampert via Grass Knot.

The only leads it concretely "beats" are anti-leads, and I don't think we're ready for analyses to get so meta that we're advocating anti-anti-leads.

I have tested this lead and found it to be fairly effective. I am unsure if it should get an analysis, but I will maintain that it really does work!

I have been using a spread of 100hp 252spatk 156 spe. The extra speed allow it to outrun the standard defensive Rotom, but it is one of those issues where Rotom is not running min/max speed, so this is not appropriate for an analysis. Regardless, if you wish to spin effectively, you need to be able to outrun and smack the most common spin blocker pretty hard (it's a 2HKO). 72 Speed is as far as I can tell absolutely pointless, apart from maybe outrunning most Skarm. The other notable thing about running >100 speed Evs is that you outrun Jirachi after having been tricked a choice scarf. However, the spread should be simple: 252hp 4def 252spatk

As for other options, leftovers would work decently well, given that Blastoise can get worn down pretty easily in sandstorm. HP Electric makes you into a fantastic Gyarados counter too.

To make this clear - Blastoise cannot afford to outrun Smeargle and Heatran by running a Timid nature as it will fail to 2HKO Azelf with Hydro Pump + Aqua jet.

I have made a simple list of attack plans for the top few leads in approximate order of use (from memory):


Azelf - Standard - Hydro Pump + Aqua Jet for a guaranteed 2HKO, provided Hydro Pump hits. Has issues with Colbur azelf who avoids this 2HKO, and particularly DS Azelf, who is barely 3HKOed by Hydro Pump with Light Screen up.

Aerodactyl - Hydro Pump/Ice Beam + Rapid Spin.

Swampert - It can't touch you, and will usually switch out since it cannot set up rocks without them being spun. Use hydro pump repeatedly for 43.6% - 51.5%.

Metagross: You outrun and 2HKO with Hydro Pump. Should prevent SR here.

Infernape - Easy win. It can only get off one attack at best, and will not set up SR.

Machamp - Hydro Pump 2HKOes the offensive lead, guaranteed, although the older lead set from the site might survive. With max HP dynamicpunch is rarely a 2HKO on you.

Jirachi - Hydro Pump 2HKOes, but you are susceptible to trick and without at least 108 speed EVs will be outrun even after trick.

Tyranitar - Hydro Pump 2HKOes, and the standard can't touch you.

Heatran - Hydro Pump OHKOes.

Roserade - very bad matchup. Even if it sleep powders you, Ice beam won't KO with Aqua jet.

Hippowdon - Hydro Pump often OHKOes. It will almost always switch out anyway.


Notable advantages over Starmie (assuming LO as scarf plays completely differently):

-Can 2HKO Azelf without risking U-turn or Explosion.
-Is not 2HKOed by Aerodactyl.
-Does not need to take LO damage (although you can use LO if you wish)
-Much better Bulk on both sides.
-Aqua jet finishes stuff off.
-Can kill Scarf Rotom-A.
-Pure water typing (in the lead position). This means that it is not pursuit-bait for Scartar and other trappers like Weavile and Scizor.

And over Empoleon:

-Beats Infernape, Machamp, Smeargle and Mamoswine.
-Rapid Spin (duh!) provides utility later in the game.
-Pure water typing gives fewer weaknesses.

I don't know if it deserves an analysis, but it certainly has a niche.

SDS - this gets a good matchup against all common leads except Roserade, against whom Starmie and Empoleon also fail. It gets a good matchup against most anti-leads, as well as having a good chance to prevent SR from regular leads. It essentially trades a little mid-game utility for the ability to simply beat (in the truest sense of the word) more leads.

It defitinely has midgame utility, however. It is a spinner, that, with my spread, will regularly flat-out beat the most common spin-blocker, which is great for any teammates walled by Rotom, as well as for spinning. I know this is of limited impact if an analysis is written, but people really don't expect this from Blastoise. Starmie fails against Scarf sets, which poses a problem.

Mid-game with empoleon, I tend to find that it walls little, given that most things prepare for the common steel-types, and stuff it can wall tends to wall it equally in return (e.g Bulky Gyarados and other bulky waters). It really doesn't pack the utility that rapid spin does.

I actually think this set is fairly interesting. I'll test it and let you know my final decision on it, but it's pretty likely that I'll pass this.

Seven Deadly Sins said:

Technically I don't "have" to do anything, but if you're going to make a big deal out of it...

Click to expand...

By your membership on the OU Quality Control team, you are indeed required to provide reasoning before rejecting a set. If you do not understand this, or are unwilling to provide reasoning without a moderator requesting it, I advise you to reconsider your position on said team. No other user or QC member is to follow the example you have set, which is to rubbish a set which clearly has some potential without explaining why and attempting to counter the arguments made by those who support or propose it. This goes for KidX too, though at least he has tested the set.

Now, as for the set, I disagree with the idea that Blastoise "sucks" midgame. The numbers in my previous post show that even without max HP Blastoise is taking far less damage from both physical and special attacks, and dealing almost exactly the same damage back. It also has a far better defensive type (other than losing the Fighting resist, but a Dark/Ghost/Bug weakness is horrible), and priority for picking of weakened faster Pokemon. Starmie does have higher Speed and Thunderbolt, but Blastoise's natural bulk and type will make it a more reliable spinner in many situations. It's not better than Starmie, but nor does it seem to be directly outclassed. And jc104 seems to have shown quite conclusively that it is capable of coming off better against a large number of common leads, including some that Starmie has problems against.

Saif said:

I would go for Water Spout+Aqua Jet on the first two spots but either way Blastoise might not be fast enough to score the first spout before rocks are set up and then there are the problems with sashes but still Aqua Jet takes care of that.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, there is no way to breed Water Spout and Aqua Jet (or any other egg move for that matter) together on the same Squirtle.

What is with the narrow-mindedness?

This "UU pokemon in OU sucks" bullshit needs to stop and every pokemon should be given a fair shot instead of this:

Inferior Starmie, no thanks.

Click to expand...

What the hell?

After testing this, I found it very satisfactory as an anti-lead, mainly because it is extremely bulky (relative to Starmie) and carries a good bunch of power.

It's biggest drawback really is outside of the lead slot, therefore I recommend Hidden Power Electric over Ice Beam, as it is a good Gyarados check if you don't take any damage (most leads still stupidly sacrifice for SR). It really whoops rotoms ass too which is great.

About the EVs: 72 speed was meant to outspeed at least one Rotom version (Rest Talk) withou sacrificing a good amount of bulk Blastoise has, as well as ensuring you don't get picked by troll Machamps running max speed (i got caught once before switching the EVs to this one...).

And with 184 HP EVs, it takes exactly 75% minimun from ScarfRotom Thunderbolt, ensuring you're getting into Torrent range (if Blastoise has full health) and KO it with Hydro Pump+Aqua Jet.

@Raikou Lover: HP Electric can be a option over Ice Beam: without Ice Beam Dragonite will be free to KO Blastoise though. Blastoise can stand a Draco Meteor from Salamence as well (again, at full health).

And with 184 HP EVs, it takes exactly 75% minimun from ScarfRotom Thunderbolt, ensuring you're getting into Torrent range (if Blastoise has full health) and KO it with Hydro Pump+Aqua Jet

Click to expand...

Torrent activates when your heath is below 1/3, meaning that 252hp is fine (in fact, better) in this respect. However, speed to outrun 0 speed Rotom makes sense.

Edit - ice beam is also hilarious against breloom.

Hmm... dunno why, but i always thought it activated when health is below 1/4. Details...

I have been punching some calculations and here are the results I'd like to share.

Blastoise @ Splash Plate
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Bold
EVs: 236 HP/76 Def/196 SpA (2 EVs leftover)
IVs: 30 SpA/31 all
~Hydro Pump
~Rapid Spin
~Ice Beam/HP Elec
~Aqua Jet

236 HP/76 Def prevent 2HKO from Lead Tyranitar’s Stone Edge, factoring in SS
Hydro Pump 2HKO Lead Metagross

Blastoise @ Lum Berry
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Modest
EVs: 204 HP/52 Def/252 SpA (2 EV leftover)
IVs: 30 SpA/31 all
~Hydro Pump
~Rapid Spin
~Ice Beam/HP Elec
~Aqua Jet

Hydro Pump + Aqua Jet 2HKO Lead Azelf
Max SpA EV is a must for decent chances of 2HKOs
204 HP prevent 2HKO from Lead Heatran’s HP Grass
52 Def is leftover

Focus Sash with Rapid Spin, Counter, and Mirror Coat would make it like a total antilead!

Cipher Admin Lovrina said:

Focus Sash with Rapid Spin, Counter, and Mirror Coat would make it like a total antilead!

Click to expand...

Blastoise is fairly bulky actually, so it doesn't necessarily need a Focus Sash. I also think the current move set of Hydro Pump/Rapid Spin/Ice Beam/Aqua Jet is the most effective. This allow Blastoise to handle so many of the commonly used leads, except Roserade. Even the anti-lead Dragonite will not OHKO Blastoise and fall prey to Ice Beam. Counter and Mirror Coat are usable, but they are pretty situational otherwise.

Haha, it's a gimmick... I just think it'd be cool to see a Blastoise that could basically counter any non stat-boosting lead. Rapid Spin away their entry hazards or counter kill their lead.

i think this lead is a cool idea. looking at jc104's analysis the lead does seem to have stuff over emp and starmie

So what are the pros and cons of Ice beam vs. HP Electric? I've been playing with this lead for a bit and I'm still stuck on which one to use since I have yet to use either very much...