Altaria (Choice Band)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/altaria

Status: Posted 8/24 - 1/2 GP Checks

Set Order: Offensive DD -> Support -> Choice Band -> RestTalk DD -> Defensive DD.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Sleep Talk / Dragon Claw
move 4: Rest
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>At first, it may seem odd to attach a Choice Band to a Pokemon with middling Attack and Speed stats. However, Altaria's Attack stat is sufficient to smash through many common defensive Pokemon, while its lower Speed stat is counterbalanced by bulk that frailer, more powerful sweepers can only dream of. Altaria's true strength lies in the excellent neutral coverage of Dragon-type attacks. While it cannot claim to 2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier with "the right attack," this is a strength, not a weakness—for the most part, there is no need to predict which Pokemon the opponent will switch in.</p>

<p>Outrage is Altaria's primary attack, and the one it should be using the majority of the time. Since there are no levitating Steels in UU, Earthquake hits every Pokemon that resists Outrage for super effective damage. Even though there are only three Steel Pokemon in the UU metagame, predicting a switch-in with Earthquake can enable you to more easily spam Outrage later in the game. Sleep Talk makes Altaria a more offensive reaction to Venusaur. If Venusaur puts Altaria to sleep with Sleep Powder, Altaria would ordinarily have to switch out in order to wake up with Natural Cure, which would give Venusaur a free turn to set up or attack. Sleep Talk means that Altaria has a high probability of attacking Venusaur in its sleep, at the very least ensuring a free switch-in for a teammate on the next turn as Venusaur heals with Synthesis. Dragon Claw is usable over Sleep Talk since it gives Altaria a secondary STAB move if you're afraid of locking Altaria into Outrage, but it misses out on many significant OHKOs and 2HKOs. Finally, Rest heals off damage taken from attacks or Stealth Rock, and is particularly effective against stall teams.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The given EVs are designed to maximize offensive potential while still taking advantage of Altaria's natural bulk. 252 Attack investment is a given, while 148 Speed lets Altaria hit 233 Speed, which outpaces Jolly Torterra. The primary Pokemon that resides between 148 Speed and max Speed is Adamant Absol, which isn't an important benchmark since it will just Sucker Punch Altaria anyway. Lowering Speed further is perfectly fine if you aren't concerned about Jolly Torterra; 92 EVs hits 219 Speed, which beats Jolly Aggron, and 64 EVs sits Altaria at 212 Speed, just enough to beat Adamant Torterra. An Adamant nature is necessary to compensate for Altaria's low Attack stat. A Jolly nature is basically worthless because it keeps Altaria from doing enough damage to defensive Pokemon; even worse, it is pointless as Jolly Altaria cannot even OHKO the offensive Pokemon it Speed ties.</p>

<p>This set is, first and foremost, a bulky attacker, not a glass cannon. It doesn't pack the pure power of some other Pokemon, but its Outrage is powerful enough to get the job done, especially with Natural Cure and its multitude of resistances preventing common defensive Pokemon from hitting Altaria effectively in return. A Choice Banded Outrage can be a nasty surprise for Pokemon like Milotic planning to sponge a weak Dragon Claw, or at worst a Dragon Danced Outrage, due to its abnormally high damage output. Here are some damage calculations that show the fearsome power of 70 base Attack:</p>

<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>Outrage vs 252/0 Torterra: 52.5% - 61.9%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 248/252+ Milotic: 45.8% - 54.2%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/200 Milotic: 52.8% - 62.4%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/0 Venusaur: 69.2% - 81.6%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/252+ Spiritomb: 48.4% - 57.2%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/0 Spiritomb: 66.4% - 78.3%</li>
<li>-1 Outrage vs 252/96+ Hitmontop: 40.5% - 47.7%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 136/0 Rhyperior: 42.2% - 49.9%</li>
<li>-1 Outrage vs 252/80 Arcanine: 40.6% - 47.9%</li>
<li>-1 Earthquake vs 252/80 Arcanine: 45.3% - 53.6%</li>
<li>Earthquake vs 252/0 Registeel: 46.7% - 54.9%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 0/0 Venusaur: 83.7% - 98.7%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 0/0 Mismagius: 124.1% - 146.4%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 0/0 Moltres: 73.2% - 86.3%</li>
</ul>

<p>As to be expected, this set mainly has problems with Steel-type Pokemon. Registeel and Steelix are usually more than willing to switch into Altaria, but Aggron lives in fear of a boosted Earthquake OHKOing it. However, once Altaria locks itself into Outrage, Aggron can easily switch in and either KO Altaria outright or set up with Rock Polish or Substitute. This makes Donphan and Hitmontop great teammates for Altaria, since they switch easily into all Steel-type Pokemon and resist Rock-type attacks aimed at Altaria. Cloyster shares a Rock-type weakness with Altaria, but can set up Spikes all day long against the offensively inept Registeel and Steelix. All three of these Pokemon are able to use Rapid Spin to clear the field for Altaria as well. It may be tempting to use Dugtrio to trap these Steel-types, but seeing as Choice Band Altaria is not a win condition, rather a wallbreaker, the downsides and risks associated with using Dugtrio are generally not worth the rewards. Altaria can 2HKO Registeel and Aggron anyway, and both it and Dugtrio have problems with Steelix, so nothing is really gained.</p>

<p>Other than Steel-types, Altaria also has some problems breaking through especially bulky Pokemon that are neutral to Outrage. Tangrowth can easily tank two Outrages, heal with Synthesis, and strike back with Hidden Power Ice. Defensively EVed Rhyperior and Regirock also shrug off Outrage before bringing Altaria crashing to the ground with Stone Edge. Finally, Altaria can be checked by faster Pokemon, but usually only by those with super effective attacks backed up by STAB or a 4x weakness, like Kabutops and Hidden Power Ice Sceptile. If you try to revenge kill Altaria with a Mismagius, well... congratulations on dealing a little damage with Shadow Ball then getting OHKOed by Outrage.</p>

diggin the set, and i agree that fireblast will not be hitting hard enough. its important to note that with outrage hits like a truck and what seperates this from other cb users like kangaskhan is definitely that "only 1 resist" and its pretty rare to see more than one on the team (only registeel in most cases).

good set =)

Imo the order of Altaria sets should be:

Offensive DD
Rest/Sleep Talk DD
Support
Defensive DD

This set, if it turns out to be good, can go in after offensive DD.

For the set itself, the EVs could probably do with optimization. Altaria is in the base 80 speed tier, which means everything and its mother will be trying to specifically outrun it. Since you're not running Jolly (which misses out on way too many kills) I would recommend dropping speed to up HP a bit. Not really sure what an appropriate benchmark would be; you could probably go high enough to outrun Adamant Absol (250 SPE, 216 EVs I think) or go low enough to outrun positive natured base 55s (230 SPE, 136 EVs). I did some calculations and there are some significant kills the bulkier one avoids. By far the most significant one is Ice Beam from 4 SATK Milotic, which never kills the bulkier one at full health (82.5% - 97.5%) while killing the less bulky one around 45% of the time (90.7% - 107.2%). Some other differences include surviving unboosted HP Ice from Sceptile at full health, +2 Return from LO Leafeon at full health, and avoiding the 2hko from max ATK LO Arcanine's Flare Blitz nearly all the time (as opposed to around half the time). Note that these really only make a difference if you can keep SR off the field, as otherwise that stealth rock damage makes it so the bulk doesn't matter very much at all, so a spinner should come highly recommended (especially if you're going to be spamming Outrage and using Rest for healing).

Anyway that's the only thing I could think of for this.

I don't really have much to comment on the set; it seems fine but something I'd personally never use (I don't like Choiced Poke's weak to SR).

But I believe the Support/Defensive Dancer sets still need to be at the top. Nearly half of Altaria ran a Careful nature (and around 12% ran Calm) in June's statistics, with only around 24% running Adamant. Leftovers is on 68% of Altaria while LO is only on a quarter. If we were going to re-order the sets I would go with Defensive Dancer > Support > Offensive Dancer > Restalk. Looking at the statistics this is how we should do it. If we don't go by statistics (but rather overall effectiveness)...well than, I fucked up the Hitmonlee update because Scarf deserves to be all the way at the bottom.

It really depends. I think ordering by usage and effectiveness are both acceptable, and tend to be congruent for most things anyway. Whoostle mentioned that he thought the LO DD set was "more effective" so I figured he wanted to order by effectiveness.

Yeah, it's ordered by effectiveness, although usage is generally a good indicator of effectiveness. That being said, I agree with FlareBlitz's list.

Tested it out, and it's pretty good. Surprise value certainly helps, and this set excels at taking advantage of the fact that a lot of players rely solely on Milotic to check Altaria.

QC Approved 1/2

I'd just like to co-sign FlareBlitz's comments on speed vs hp. I used a similiar Specs Altaria, with DM, Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse, and Rest. I ran I think enough speed to outrun Milotic that outrun Max Adamant Torterra with the rest in HP. It maintained a fair amount of bulk and still hit outran what I needed it to for the most part. (Milotic)

I forgot to test this >_> Will edit in my opinions of this set into this post tomorrow.

One thing though, Dragon Claw is just really disappointing due to how weak it is, so I'm wondering if there are other viable options? Heal Bell could be great for some quick team support (kinda like sticking Stealth Rock on CBperior), Sleep Talk would make it a make-shift status absorber and could grab you a nice hit against Venusaur that sleep you on the way in, Toxic could be useful for Slowbro/Tangrowth/Magcargo (who can tank a couple of Outrages)...I'm just not seeing when Dragon Claw would ever be useful, since Altaria isn't particularly fast and since even defensively weak things shrug off dragon claw (doing 56% max to Calm Chansey is >_>). I'll probably test some of these things out tomorrow and let you know.

Oh and the bulkier spread is definitely the way to go, it gives you around a 50% chance to switch in on Venusaur and survive 2 Sludge Bombs (with no SR) or survive a Sludge Bomb and still be alive to switch into SR one more time.

Dragon Claw is probably acceptable as you can use it first time in. Should the opponent switch in a bulky pokemon, or a Steel-type, Outrage is sub-optimal as it probably won't 2HKO said bulky poke and will do very little damage to the likes of Registeel. Dragon Claw drops bulky stuff into the 2HKO range of Outrage and does very little damage to Registeel without locking yourself in.

The move in the fourth slot is fairly unimportant, as you are generally going to be spamming Outrage / Earthquake. Dragon Claw is mainly useful for clean-up during late-game or when you want to KO a weakened Pokemon that your opponent will likely sacrifice. You can scout with Dragon Claw too, as Ice-eyes said, and you can, like Moltres, force Milotic to Recover after every switch-in or else it's 2HKOed next switch-in by Outrage. However, scouting with Dragon Claw is inviting Registeel to come in and set up Stealth Rock. Altaria really isn't the kind of Pokemon you send out early game to scout, but rather one you send out mid to late game to sweep weakened Pokemon / walls.

As for FlareBlitz's other suggestions, I don't think Toxic is better than Dragon Claw. You don't really want to poison Milotic because then you can't 2HKO it, although I guess you get some mileage out of it with Slowbro (but he's 10x less common than Milotic). Heal Bell - only if your team really needs cleric support. Sleep Talk is probably the most viable alternate option, but I'm leaning towards keeping Dragon Claw as the first slash because it has more situational utility (and you're kind of fucked if you don't pick Outrage against Venusaur).

As for the bulky spread, I second it as well, but keep in mind that you no longer outrun Feraligatr and Ludicolo (outside of rain, although for some reason most don't run max Speed according to stats) and don't Speed tie with other base 80s (mainly DD Altaria and Mesprit). Absol isn't really important because it'll Sucker Punch you or be Scarfed. I haven't had a battle where the spread mattered, but I believe the bulkier spread is likelier to come into play.

I only used Dragon Claw once when I tested and that was when I wanted to kill a Mismagius without locking myself in because I had already scouted his team extensively and I had an endgame plan (i.e. very specific and rare scenario). that said... Heal Bell is possibly even MORE situational than Dragon Claw so I didn't slash it but I will give it a mention.

EVs are updated; they yield 233 Speed which beats Jolly Torterra.

notice the new proposed ordering of the sets.

Okay, I tested this. Tested two sets:

Altaria @ Choice Band
108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-[Filler, see below]
-Rest

Tested the following moves in the filler slot:

Dragon Claw
Heal Bell
Pursuit
Sing
Sleep Talk
Sky Attack

Yeah as you can tell I had a lot of fun with this.

First off, Dragon Claw. I never used Dragon Claw, ever. This Altaria is supposed to be a mid-game wall-breaker, or at least that's how I used it, so I'd scouted and eliminated Registeel and things with Earthquake and I was free to spam Outrage all day. I did end up using it against a Leftovers Offensive Venusaur just to see how its power compares, and it failed to 2hko (although apparently I rolled absolute min damage both times, but still, christ). Altaria isn't fast enough or strong enough to use it as a cleaning move like Garchomp can, so yeah I think it's very situational.

Heal Bell was more useful for me, but that might have more to do with my team. I was using a pseduo-pass Leafeon, and it attracted Registeel like nothing else, so I'd SD, take the para, and then baton pass to arcanine or something. I also have three teammates (rhyperior, spiritomb, and toxicroak) that are burn fodder. Altaria was useful for getting rid of that occasional para or burn when I knew spamming Outrage/Earthquake wouldn't do much due to the opposing team having Registeel and Milotic. Still situational, but I like it better.

Pursuit was really fun (how the fuck can a cloud chase things). On a rematch against someone I sent Altaria out against a Mismagius. In the previous game Altaria had tanked a +2 Shadow Ball (yeah it can do that by the way, beast) and Outraged it into oblivion, so this game it tried to escape to Registeel...but I pursuited it, hehe. Still ridiculously situational, wouldn't recommend it, but occassionally fun.

Sing, while unreliable, saved my ass a couple of times. You can actually just spam Sing against something like Registeel because Altaria doesn't care about Thunderwave/Toxic and can just rest off any damage. If Registeel falls asleep you can switch to Rhyperior or something and force it out while it's still asleep, which makes future Outrages a lot less risky. Putting Milotic or Tangrowth to sleep also greatly helps your entire team. If I have to bring out Altaria early for whatever reason (i.e. tanking a leaf storm from Uglysaur) I just spam sing to scout Registeel/Milotic. It was useful, definitely worth a mention.

I used Sleep Talk surprisingly often. It was often the case that the Venusaur user would try to be clever and spam Sleep Powder again after I take it the first time, expecting a switch due to Natural Cure. This bought me a free turn, and quite a few Venusaur were maimed by Outrage. Even when I picked Earthquake, it forced them to Synth or at least not spam gay things anymore, so you can get an easy switch.

Sky Attack was stupid.

I also tested 252 Atk/108 SpA/140 Spe with Naughty and alternated Fire Blast and Draco Meteor in the last slot. Both were useless and barely stronger than the physical alternatives (except against Tangrowth). We should keep this physical.

As for the set itself, it does what it's supposed to. STAB Outrage is nice, too bad Altaria is just so weak. It does have quite a bit of bulk, so it can find a home on slower teams as a pivot against Venusaur. I'm going to approve it only because it's probably the best thing Altaria is going to be doing in this metagame.



(I refuse to use the lame green text)

Umm... another option is Aerial Ace. Extremely weak but it does receieve STAB and would hit things like Venusaur and Fighting types equally hard without locking into Outrage.

unless I'm mistaken, Outrage hits every Pokemon in UU and below except for Shedinja with power equal to or greater than that of Aerial Ace. everything that resists Outrage also resists Flying, and nothing that takes super effective damage from Flying takes less-than-neutral damage from Dragon. it's only even situationally useful against two or three Pokemon max; bad coverage and low power means I don't think it should get a spot.

I'm hesitant to take Dragon Claw off the filler slot since it did come in useful for me once and I can see a few other scenarios in which it would be useful. also, it's sorta tradition for sets like this to include a secondary, more reliable STAB attack as the filler if the primary STAB has a big drawback and there's no other filler option that stands out. Sleep Talk will probably be slashed with it, and Heal Bell and Sing will be mentioned in AC. we can figure out the exact slashing if you guys have strong feelings even after this is moved out of QC, obviously.

speaking of which, moved to UU.

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Sleep Talk / Dragon Claw
move 4: Rest
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>At first, it may seem odd to attach a Choice Band to a Pokemon with middling Attack and Speed stats. However, Altaria’s Attack stat is sufficient to smash through many common defensive Pokemon, while its lower Speed stat is counterbalanced by bulk that frailer, more powerful sweepers can only dream of. Altaria’s true strength lies in the excellent neutral coverage of Dragon-type attacks. While it cannot claim to 2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier with “the right attack,” this is a strength, not a weakness—for the most part, there is no need to predict which Pokemon the opponent will switch in.</p>

<p>Outrage is Altaria’s primary attack, and the one it should be using the majority of the time. Since there are no levitating Steels in UU, Earthquake hits every Pokemon that resists Outrage for super effective damage (except Wormadam-S and I suppose Sheddy lol). Even though there are only three Steel Pokemon in the UU metagame, predicting a switch-in with Earthquake can make it much easier to spam Outrage later in the game. Sleep Talk makes Altaria a more offensive reaction to Venusaur. If Venusaur puts Altaria to sleep with Sleep Powder, it would ordinarily have to switch out in order to wake up with Natural Cure, which would give Venusaur a free turn to set up or attack. Sleep Talk means Altaria has a good chance to attack Venusaur in its sleep, at the very least ensuring a free switch-in for a teammate as Venusaur heals with Synthesis. Dragon Claw is usable over Sleep Talk since it gives Altaria a secondary STAB move if you're afraid of locking Altaria into Outrage, but it misses out on lots of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Finally, Rest heals off damage taken from attacks or Stealth Rock, and is particularly effective against stall teams.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The given EVs are designed to maximize offensive potential while still taking advantage of Altaria’s natural bulk. 252 Attack is a given, while 148 Speed lets Altaria hit a 233 Speed stat, which lets it outpace all Jolly Torterra. The main Pokemon that resides between 148 Speed and max Speed is Adamant Absol, who isn’t an important benchmark since it will just Sucker Punch Altaria anyway. Lowering Speed further is perfectly fine if you aren’t concerned about Jolly Torterra; 92 EVs hits 219 Speed, which beats Jolly Aggron, and 64 EVs gets Altaria to 212 Speed, just enough to beat Adamant Torterra. An Adamant nature is necessary to compensate for Altaria’s low Attack stat; a Jolly nature is basically worthless since it means Altaria will not do enough damage against defensive Pokemon, and even worse, it is pointless since Jolly Altaria cannot OHKO the offensive Pokemon it Speed ties.</p>

<p>This set is first and foremost a bulky attacker, not a frail glass cannon. It doesn’t pack the pure power of some other Pokemon, but its Outrage is powerful enough to get the job done, especially since Natural Cure and its multitude of resistances mean common defensive Pokemon cannot hit Altaria effectively in return. This set can be a nasty surprise for Pokemon like Milotic planning to sponge a weak Dragon Claw, or at worst a Dragon Danced Outrage, due to its abnormally high damage output. Here are some damage calculations that show the fearsome power of 70 base Attack::</p>

<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>Outrage vs 252/0 Torterra: 52.5% - 61.9%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 248/252+ Milotic: 45.8% - 54.2%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/200 Milotic: 52.8% - 62.4%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/0 Venusaur: 69.2% - 81.6%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/252+ Spiritomb: 48.4% - 57.2%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 252/0 Spiritomb: 66.4% - 78.3%</li>
<li>-1 Outrage vs 252/96+ Hitmontop: 40.5% - 47.7%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 136/0 Rhyperior: 42.2% - 49.9%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 0/0 Venusaur: 83.7% - 98.7%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 0/0 Mismagius: 124.1% - 146.4%</li>
<li>Outrage vs 0/0 Moltres: 73.2% - 86.3%</li>
<li>-1 Outrage vs 252/80 Arcanine: 40.6% - 47.9%</li>
<li>-1 Earthquake vs 252/80 Arcanine: 45.3% - 53.6%</li>
<li>Earthquake vs 252/0 Registeel: 46.7% - 54.9%</li>
</ul>

<p>As to be expected, this set mainly has problems with Steel-type Pokemon. Registeel and Steelix are usually more than willing to switch into Altaria, but Aggron is usually not usually an initial switch since a Dragon Danced Earthquake OHKOes it. However, once Altaria locks itself into Outrage, Aggron can easily switch in and either set up with Rock Polish / Substitute or KO Altaria. This all makes Donphan and Hitmontop great teammates for Altaria, since they switch easily into all Steel-type Pokemon and resist Rock-type attacks aimed at Altaria. Cloyster is also weak to Rock-type attacks, but can set up Spikes all day against the offensively inept Registeel and Steelix. All three of these Pokemon are able to use Rapid Spin to clear the field for Altaria as well. It may be tempting to prescribe yourself penicillin Dugtrio for Steel-type blues (this is a bit silly), but the downsides to using Dugtrio are generally not worth the rewards because Choice Band Altaria is not a win condition, merely a wallbreaker. Also, if you predict the switch and use Earthquake, Altaria can 2HKO Registeel and Aggron; it has problems with Steelix, but on the other hand, so does Dugtrio, so it doesn't really help.</p>

<p>Other than Steel-types, Altaria also has some problems breaking through especially bulky Pokemon that are neutral to Outrage. Tangrowth can easily tank two Outrages while healing with Synthesis and striking back with Hidden Power Ice. Defensively EVed Rhyperior and Regirock also shrug off Outrage before bringing Altaria crashing to the ground with Stone Edge. Finally, Altaria can be checked by faster Pokemon, but usually only by those with super effective attacks backed up by STAB or a 4x weakness, like Kabutops and Hidden Power Ice Sceptile. If you try to revenge kill Altaria with a Mismagius, well, good luck denting it a bit with Shadow Ball while getting OHKOed by Outrage.</p>

Click to expand...

Changes in bold and removals in red.

GP check 1.

Additions in bold, removals in red.
Remember to be careful with your quotation marks and apostrophes, as you have the MSWord versions in the analysis and that needs to be changed. Otherwise, the writeup is excellent and I only had minor prose edits to make across the board. Definitely ready to go on-site after this.

Cheers.

GP Check 2/2

Just noticed this, but doesn't Sleep talk fail second turn with a choice item?

Or is this only on shoddy?

yes, but i hardly think that is worth mentioning since it is (a) not unique to altaria (b) not even the main point of the set

uploading.