Flareon (Update)

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flareon


Removed: Choice, Baton Pass and Mixed sets: outclassed by Arcanine/Blaziken/ Houndoom/ Moltres...

2x approved, 2x GP
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[Overview]

<p>Flareon is often considered one of the weaker 'Eeveelutions' due to his bad Defense, HP, and Speed; lack of strong physical STAB despite his high Attack stat; and Stealth Rock weakness thanks to his Fire typing.</p>

<p>However, even with all these drawbacks, Flareon can still perform some niche roles with his high Special Defense and access to Wish. Flareon is not 2HKOed by most bulky Water-types and is a great counter to specially offensive Grass-types and Moltres (without Toxic), which allows him ample opportunities to support his teammates with Wish while attempting to stall out the opponent.</p>

[SET]
name: Wish
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect
move 3: Flamethrower / Lava Plume
move 4: Toxic
nature: Calm
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is something that Fire-types like Blaziken and Houndoom can't do. Flareon's job is to keep his team healthy with Wish and stall the enemy out with a combination of Wish, Protect, and Toxic. Flareon can counter common threats such as offensive Moltres, special Venusaur, Sceptile, Arcanine (special and bulky sets without Toxic), Rotom, and Alakazam while stalling walls for instance Chansey and even Milotic.</p>

<p>Lava Plume keeps physical attackers from switching in freely as they risk a burn, while Flamethrower has more Base Power and a lower burn rate, which may be beneficial when dealing with bulky Water-types, for example, Milotic and Slowbro as the burn grants them immunity to Toxic. The EVs ensure that 0 SpA Milotic, one of the most powerful bulky Water-types, never 2HKOes Flareon with Surf when factoring in Leftovers. They also let him take some physical attacks ,for instance, Arcanine's ExtremeSpeed, mixed Blaziken's Life Orb Superpower, and unboosted Life Orb Venusaur's Earthquake.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As Flareon's Defense is nothing to write home about, a defensive Ground-type such as Donphan or Claydol is a good teammate to take the Rock- and Ground-type attacks aimed at Flareon. Fighting-types, e.g., Hariyama and Hitmontop can also take Rock attacks and don't have a shared Water weakness. A Water-type such as Milotic is also a good partner to combat Fire-types who Flareon can't handle, such as Blaziken. Milotic also checks most Ground- and Rock-types, such as Rhyperior. Since Flareon can outstall bulky Water-types and troublesome walls, Pokemon who love having these out of the way, for example, Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Sceptile, are also good partners.</p>

<p>Flareon is weak to Stealth Rock, so a spinner is valuable to Flareon. Donphan and Claydol are again good choices as they can spin Stealth Rock and Spikes away and also lay Stealth Rock down themselves. Blastoise can take the Water-type attacks that Flareon can't take, such as Azumarill's Waterfall. In return, Flareon's Wish lets Blastoise last longer to spin. Hitmontop can take Rock-type attacks and spin against Ghost-types thanks to Foresight.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>As mentioned, Water-types are good teammates to take Water-type attacks and combat Ground-, Fire-, and Rock-types while Flareon takes Grass-type attacks. Milotic can handle Rhyperior, Blaziken, and Arcanine and can go more offensive with Life Orb since Wish can help keep her healthy. Blastoise is also a good option as he can spin.</p>

<p>A Ground- or Rock-type like Claydol can take on Ground- and Rock-types with ease and set up Stealth Rock to hurt the opponent's team. Claydol may also spin away Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes that hinder Flareon's chances to come in and start stalling. Fighting-types, however, have more synergy and numerous options; Poliwrath, who is immune to Water attacks; Hitmontop, who can spin; and Hariyama, who is bulky, all make good teammates.</p>

<p>Grass-types also take Water-type attacks and in return Flareon absorbs Fire-type attacks while getting a Flash Fire boost. Venusaur, thanks to his Poison-type, absorbs Toxic Spikes on the switch in and attracts Fire attacks while Flareon keeps his health up with Wish. A Swords Dance variant can be a particularly effective partner, as Flareon checks one of Swords Dance Venusaur's biggest counters, Moltres.</p>

<p>As mentioned multiple times before, Flareon counters Moltres and Arcanine without Toxic. SubRoost Moltres and bulky Arcanine with Toxic turn the tables on Flareon, so defensive Altaria with Heal Bell is a good teammate since he can check both and heal status afflictions with Heal Bell.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Flareon's movepool is shallow but he still has some options. Yawn can be used to force the opponent out under the threat of sleep. A mixed attacker with Superpower / Fire Blast / Return / Hidden Power Grass may be used for breaking down walls such as Clefable and Steelix more easily, but is outclassed by Magmortar and Blaziken as they are faster and hit harder. Quick Attack provides priority, but with no STAB and weak Base Power, Return is almost always a better option. Will-O-Wisp burns physical attackers such as Azumarill and Rhyperior who want to hit Flareon on his weaker Defense stat, but Lava Plume still has a good 30% chance to burn switch-ins. You can use Fire Fang and a Careful nature on the Wish set since Flareon's Attack is higher than its Special Attack; you hit Chansey and specially defensive Pokémon such as Registeel harder, but with the low Base Power of Fire Fang and high Defense stats of other counters such as Rhyperior and Donphan, it is a lesser option. Iron Tail also damages Rock-types and doesn't lower your Attack and Defense like Superpower but it has real use out of that. Flareon can use Heal Bell but it's hard to give up one of his other moves and there are better choices such as Chansey and Clefable. Roar is good for shuffling the opponent's team around and stopping stat-uppers.</p>

<p>A Choice Band set lets Flareon hit harder but again is outclassed since Flareon has no good physical STAB outside of Fire Fang. Choice Specs runs off Flareon's lower Special Attack stat, but Overheat can dent any Pokemon who doesn't resist it. A Baton Pass set with Wish, Lava Plume, and either Substitute or Curse could be useful, but Flareon has no real opportunities to set up and is outclassed by Blaziken, who has access to Agility and Swords Dance.</p>

<p>Always max out Flareon's low HP stat and invest in his good SpD for a more defensive set. 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD lets Flareon take most special attacks with ease and survive some physical attacks, such as an Earthquake from Life Orb Venusaur or a Superpower from mixed Blaziken. For more Speed, 140 EVs with a neutral nature allow Flareon to outspeed 4 Speed Milotic and Venusaur, while 168 EVs outspeed 0 Speed Base 85s. However, it is almost always more useful to invest in Flareon's defenses as he already outspeeds some slower walls like Slowbro who don't invest in Speed. </p>

[Counters]

<p>Most Rock- and Ground-types are counters to sets without Hidden Power Grass or Superpower but they need to watch out for a burn from Lava Plume. Bulky Water-types can be outstalled by the standard set but are good counters to the offensive sets. Although not as common, more offensive Water-types such as Calm Mind Slowbro or Life Orb Milotic can 2HKO Flareon with Surf or even OHKO with Hydro Pump. ResTalkers, such as Spiritomb, can just Rest off the poison and stall Flareon out.</p>

<p>Flareon is Stealth Rock weak and has many weaknesses to common types, such as Ground and Water, so getting Stealth Rock and Spikes on the field will severely limit his lifespan.</p>
 
I really don't think that the Baton Pass set would work.

While Flareon has a decent SDef stat, it's completely undermined by its HP and regular Defense stats. It doesn't help that the Fire type has a myriad of weaknesses. For example, your only real chance to switch in is Houndoom. You're being hit on your weaker defense with super-effective Earthquakes (hell a Venusaur will probably just keep Earthquaking you) and on your stronger defense by ubiquitous Water-type attacks.

This is really the bane of any defensive set, though I suppose Houndoom being common is a good excuse for the Wishpassing set, and it's nice to hit <bulky water> or Rhyperior with Toxic.

Having used it in the early days of D/P NU, I can attest to the effectiveness of Mixed Flareon. However you are providing no reason as to why we shouldn't just use Magmortar (who, in my opinion right now, is completely superior). Magmortar has more power behind its main STAB and still gains the appropriate KOs with Cross Chop instead of Superpower. Magmortar is also faster (crucially, in fact, with the saturated base 80 speed tier).

The main advantages of using Flareon would be hitting bulky waters harder on the switch with Return, which Magmortar cannot boast. I believe Quick Attack deserves a slash on this set, as you can talk about a stronger priority attack than Magmortar's (uncommon) Mach Punch [coming from a higher attack score].

In Summary
- Remove the Baton Pass set, it doesn't get enough opportunities to set up
- Talk more about advantages over other Fire-type wallbreakers like Magmortar in the mixed set
- Slash Quick Attack with Hidden Power Grass (Superpower hits Rhyperior and Omastar anyway I guess)

Possible Considerations
- Fire Blast > Lava Plume on the Wish set [As a slash]
- Similarly, HP Grass > Toxic [""]
- Flareon gets Yawn as I recall, could have uses somewhere

~Alch
 
Alcemator:
I wasn't sure on the Baton Pass set but the only reason I tested it was because it wasn't outclassed by said Fire types, if others agree ill remove it.

Mixed Attacker: Magmortar outclasses it with T-bolt, Spe, more power, Cross Shop etc. Flareon does has more Physical power in Return and Superpower say Registeel: Magmortars Cross Shop hits for 37%-44%
while Flareons Superpower hits for 69%-82% ( i know u can FB), Flareon does 92%-100% to Clefable while Magmortar hits for 53%-63%.
I can give u a list of these things but i agree that Mag hits harder on the Special side.

Wish: -
Flamethrower is listed and will slash but not FB only 8 PP and if Flareon needs to Stall.
-HP Grass wont get a slash fot the reason that it just tickles them as the HP Grass on the Mixed Attacker only 3HKOs Bulky Milotic. So without investment and LO... With Toxic you can atleast Stall them out.
-Yawn will get a mention.
 
I really would like to know in what way Flareon outclasses Blaziken as a stallbreaker in the slightest.
 
Alchemator:
I wasn't sure on the Baton Pass set but the only reason I tested it was because it wasn't outclassed by said Fire types, if others agree ill remove it.

Blaziken outclasses it - it gets Agility and Swords Dance to pass, there are better sub-passers anyway.

In fact I agree with Bluewind, Blaziken outclasses Flareon in pretty much every offensive way. Maybe just keep the first set.
 
I really would like to know in what way Flareon outclasses Blaziken as a stallbreaker in the slightest.
Blaziken is OHKOed after 1 turn of LO by Milotic Surf giving Blaziken only 1 chance to hit it if Milotic switches in after a kill.

While Flareon hits less hard its bulk allows it to survive a Surf from Milotic and still have a good chance to have 2 or even 3 turns to attack left (69.4% - 82.7%).
Blaziken like Flareon doesn't 2HKO Milotic with HP Grass but with Spikes and SR so common.

Its true that HP Grass from Blaziken can 2HKO Slowbro while Flareon has a small chance but again SR and Spikes help here (45.7% - 54.3%).

Will post calcs later and will remove the Baton Pass set.
If others think so, the Mixed Set will also be removed.
 
In all honesty Flareon should not be staying in on Milotic; just switch in Venusaur or something

Also in that mixed sweeper calc, what were the Clefable's EVs?
 
I haven't tested this yet, but can something like this work??

Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpD (Might be better spread)
Nature: Careful
-Curse
-Wish
-Fire Fang
-Baton Pass/Heal Bell

Yes, Fire Fang is weak as shit, but Flareon has Base 130 Attack, so if Umbreon can pull off a Curse set with its shitty base 65 Attack, I can't see why Flareon can't. This is not to mention if you get a Flash Fire boost, it doesn't look so weak any more. If you run into a Pokemon you can't beat, just Baton Pass the boost and the get the hell out.

EDIT: Scrap this, just tested it and it sucks.
 
Breludicolo: from the encore set 252 HP / 152 Def i think.

Shrang: SR and weak to common attacks like Surf, Earthquake and Stone Edge really sucks. it doesn't have to good resists and few oppertunities to come in on.

Breludicolo: Flareon CAN beat Milotic: Wisher is never 2HKOed by Surf while you stall with Wish/ Protect and Toxic.

the mixed attacker does around 33% - 40% with HP Grass and Return is a 3HKO. with SR and Spikes and if you predict right you can see Milotic switching in on Return or catch it with HP Grass and be 2HKOed by both thanks to SR and Spikes.

EDIT: Wish set is posted, opinions on Mixed attacker is still needed. Here are some calcs.
Superpower:
Clefable 252 HP / 152 Def: 97.5% - 115.2%
Steelix 252 HP: 54.8% - 65%
Registeel 252 HP: 69.2% - 81.9%
Regirock 252 HP: 53.3% - 63.2%
Milotic 248 HP / 252 Def: 38.4% - 45.3%
Rhyperior 136 HP: 52.8% - 62.5%
Arcanine 120 HP: 61.3% - 72.4% (with intimidate: 41% - 48.4%)
Return:
Arcanine 120 HP : 52.4% - 61.8%
Milotic 248 HP / 252 Def: 32.3% - 38.2%
Slowbro 252 HP / 252 Def: 26.1% - 31%
Venusaur 252 HP / 128 Def: 42.3% - 50%
Fire Blast
Venusaur 252 HP / 128 SpD: 85.7% - 101.1%
Steelix 252 HP / 252 SpD: 100%
Registeel 252 HP / 156 SpD: 61.5% - 73.1%
Hidden Power Grass
Milotic 252 HP: 32.1% - 38.2%
Slowbro 252 HP: 45.7% - 54.3%
Rhyperior 244 HP / 248 SpD: 59.7% - 70.8%
 
Flareon might have a better attack, but Blaziken gets STAB on Superpower, thus hitting much harder. Having that in mind, Blaziken doesn't need Return at all and could just go for both Hidden Power Grass and priority, instead of having to pick one like Flareon does (and which Flareon gets no STAB from). Finally, the Surf calculations really don't matter, especially when you account for Flareon's SR weakness and the fact it's just stalled out due to its weaker moves.

Long story short, in NU Flareon does well as a mixed stallbreaker, but in UU that job is better left for Blaziken and Magmortar.
 
For the Wish set, how about putting Will-o-Wisp as a second option beside toxic?

It can help cripple any physical attacker that tries to ruin flareon's fun like Rhyperior, also it can help out flareon since his defense is kinda low...
 
For the Wish set, how about putting Will-o-Wisp as a second option beside toxic?

It can help cripple any physical attacker that tries to ruin flareon's fun like Rhyperior, also it can help out flareon since his defense is kinda low...

I like this idea; mention in AC that Flamethrower and Will-o-wisp can be used in place of Lava Plume and Toxic to combat hard-hitting rock types (aggron and Rhyperior especially, though Kautops is nice too), but it leaves Flareon vulnerable to bulky waters and Houndoom
 
Bluewind: ok, ill remove the mixed attacker, mention in OC.

WoW will be mentioned and maybe slashed but Lava Plume still has the Burn chance and with Toxic Flareon can outstall things like Milotic but it wil get a mention.

This still needs to get approved but I wont be able to work on it until the 22st but ill get it done.
 
I much prefer Flamethrower over Lava Plume. I understand the benefits of LP and I have tested it but constantly found myself burning things like Milotic and Slowbro on the switch thus granting them immunity to Toxic which royally screws over Flareon. Sure, it's nice burning Rhyperior or Kabutops on the switch in but it's not as if either of them enjoy Toxic either. Slash Flamethrower in (as the primary option imo)...it's better than AC. Yawn doesn't deserve to be in AC, nor does WoW. Really, Flamethrower/Toxic/Wish/Protect is the perfect set here and the only change I'd consider is running Fire Fang to better counter CMers like Mismagius but that's a meh change.

Also, I use 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD Calm to help with taking things like Arcanine Extremespeed, Magmortar Cross Chops, Spiritomb's physical attacks (particularly Pursuit) and Venusaur Earthquakes incase you guess wrong on the nature of his set...that sorta thing. Personal preference I suppose, but it works out a lot better. Never OHKO'd by MixKen's Superpower for what it's worth too.

On account of the recently posted 'Specially Defensive Arcanine' set perhaps you shouldn't mention him in the opening sentence.

The set comments would also benefit from mentioning what this Flareon can wall, because at the moment it sounds as though he's just some gimmicky Milotic lure. He's one of the best counters in the tier to offensive Moltres, walls special Venusaur all day, Rotom can't do shit to him (and you can Protect to scout Trick), counters LO Alakazam if SR isnt down, can take anything standard Arcanine can throw at him (bar Toxic), beats out most Sceptile sets etc etc. At the moment it's just four lines about how he can Toxic-stall Milotic which sells him grossly short.

As for the Mixed Attacker set, I probably wouldn't bother entertaining it in UU (hugely outclassed by Blaziken) or NU (hugely outclassed by Magmortar) so just drop it imo.
 
Back. Flamethrower will be slashed as the 1st option over LP. Yawn will move to OC but I think i'm going to keep WoW: Flareon lures Physical attackers and burning them on the switch is still helpful due to its low Def.

Ill mention that EV spread and will talk more about what it counters.
 
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Approving the first set. Mixed sweeper needs to be dropped to OC. Slash Flamethrower next to Lava Plume on the Wish set. Also, the teammate section needs to be spiced up a bit. Mention Milotic to help take on Fire-types you can't handle like Blaziken and Arcanine. She also can handle Rhyperior. You might want to mention teammates that enjoy Milotic out of the way as well; Pokemon such as Feraligatr, Azumarill, and the like.

I agree with Lee in that you're selling the Wish set short. It's a great counter to Moltres and special attacking Grass-types, which few Pokemon can do effectively. This needs to be reflected in the set comments.
 
252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD is going to be the first option. It still isn't 2HKOed by Surf with Leftovers and takes some Physical attacks like Lee said.

got analysis up. Still waiting on comments and proofreading after the approvals as I still need 1 approval I think.
 
Just a formatting issue, you need <p> </p> tags at the start and finish of each paragraph, this includes the ones in Team Options, Counters, and Optional Changes. For example:

<p>First paragraph.</p>

<p>Second paragraph.</p>
 
Edited the Overview to improve grammar and flow. Only thing I was unsure about was if Flareon was a he or an it. Removed mention of countering Moltres, as Flareon can't do much to it and flat-out loses to Sub-Roost versions.

Flareon is often considered one of the weaker 'Eeveelutions' due to its bad Defense, HP, and Speed; lack of strong physical STAB despite its high Attack stat; and Stealth Rock weakness thanks to its Fire-typing.

However, even with all these drawbacks, Flareon can still perform some niche roles with its high Special Defense and access to Wish. Flareon avoids 2HKOs from most bulky Water-types and is a great counter to specially offensive Grass types, allowing him ample opportunities to support his teammates with Wish and attempt to stall out the opponent.
 
Srsly flareon NEEEDS a mixed wallbreaker set. With both Superpower and Fire Blast along with other coverage moves, Flareon differentiates itself from Magmortar (srsly why Magmortar) with its 125 base attack even if it doesn't have thunderbolt it should still have an attacking set. Anybody that does not think this should seriously open their eyes. Instead of only focusing on UU usage you should also include its use for NU which is a growing tier and might soon become a standard tier. Just because its outclassed by things not even in its tier doesn't mean you should completely disregard a set.
 
Srsly flareon NEEEDS a mixed wallbreaker set. With both Superpower and Fire Blast along with other coverage moves, Flareon differentiates itself from Magmortar (srsly why Magmortar) with its 125 base attack even if it doesn't have thunderbolt it should still have an attacking set. Anybody that does not think this should seriously open their eyes. Instead of only focusing on UU usage you should also include its use for NU which is a growing tier and might soon become a standard tier. Just because its outclassed by things not even in its tier doesn't mean you should completely disregard a set.


All analyses are written for UU for the time being; within UU it's outclassed by blaziken as a wallbreaker

Although I admit that this does cause issues for pokemon like charizard (explicitly outclassed but still good in their own right)
 
If it's a good set, I can't see why it shouldn't be included. If we were to omit sets that are outclassed, pokemon such as Lumineon, Dustox, and Meganium would have no sets at all.
 
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