Shaymin (Update)

Shaymin
GP Checks: 2/2 (Snorlaxe, DJXO9)

Thanks to Earthworm for giving this a good readthrough before I posted it! And Phil and pana. \o/ And sorry for being so slow -- my hard disk had a head crash and I lost my WIP.

[OVERVIEW]

<p>When considering Grass-types, Shaymin is inevitably compared to Celebi. Both are base 100 Grass-types with Natural Cure, and Celebi has the edge in its host of support moves (including Recover). However, Shaymin gives it a run for its money with Seed Flare and a lack of Psychic-typing to hold it back. Rounded base 100 stats provide Shaymin with respectable offense, solid bulk, and an important Speed stat, while Natural Cure allows Shaymin to switch out and heal the kinds of status that cripple other sweepers. Despite its movepool being somewhat shallow, Shaymin gets most of the coverage it needs, and has access to Seed Flare, its powerful signature move; Seed Flare's Special Defense drops mean even Blissey must be careful around it. A sturdy sweeper, Shaymin fits well in most Fire/Water/Grass cores, and has the ability to get rid of many of OU's bulky threats, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Rotom-A, bulky Water-types (such as Suicune and Vaporeon), and Gliscor, giving it a useful role in the metagame.</p>

<p>However, Scizor, Heatran, and Dragonite, all top threats in OU, give it some trouble, and without the right Hidden Power, it can be set up on easily. Grass as a type has poor coverage in OU because of the prominence of Steel- and Dragon-types, but it also hits the common Water- and Ground-types super effectively, and can easily switch in on Water and Electric moves. Overall, the pros outweigh the cons when using Shaymin, and while it doesn't fit on all teams, it's certainly a threat to be addressed.</p>

[SET]
name: Three Attacks
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest / Leech Seed
nature: Timid / Modest
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is a standard offensive Shaymin set with three attacks and a recovery move. This set troubles bulky teams and has the Speed, bulk, and Special Attack to threaten more offensive teams. Seed Flare is Shaymin's staple STAB move, KOing many bulky Waters and Grounds with Life Orb attached. Hippowdon, offensive Rotom-A, and Water-types like Vaporeon and unboosted CroCune all fall to a single Seed Flare (after Stealth Rock damage). Even Blissey is afraid of switching in on Seed Flare due to the possibility of a harsh Special Defense decrease. Earth Power is on the set to augment coverage, hitting many of the Pokémon who resist Seed Flare super effectively, such as Heatran and Jirachi. The Hidden Power is a matter of preference and team needs; both hit opposing Grass-types and other key threats. Hidden Power Ice allows a 31 Speed IV and wipes out Dragonite and other Flying-types, who otherwise come in on Shaymin with impunity, whereas Hidden Power Fire roasts Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress. Lastly, one can choose either Rest or Leech Seed to keep Shaymin alive. Rest lets Shaymin abuse Natural Cure for full recovery on the switch, but Leech Seed saps away Blissey and Snorlax's HP, as well as cushioning attacks for the team and negating Life Orb recoil. Synthesis is a viable alternative for instant 50% recovery, but Sand Stream is prevalent in OU, rendering it useless most of the time. For those who prefer survivability over raw power, Leftovers is an excellent item option, although it misses out on KOes.</p>

<p>Shaymin works well as part of an offensive Fire/Water/Grass core. This core is useful because their weaknesses and resistances complement each other well, and there are many options for offensive teams. Heatran is the best option for the Fire-type due to its bulk and power. It can run a number of sets and lure Blissey in only to Explode on it. Suicune, Kingdra, and Gyarados all perform wonderfully in the Water-type slot. Kingdra and Gyarados can hit special walls with strong physical attacks (Taunt Gyarados in particular can set up on Blissey and Skarmory, while benefiting from Shaymin's ability to deal with Rotom-A). Suicune has the natural bulk to tank hits from Fire-types, and is particularly useful when you are utilizing Hidden Power Fire, as it makes for a good check to Dragonite. Another option is Starmie, who, while generally useless against Blissey, can wash Skarmory away and use Rapid Spin to rid the field of the opponent's entry hazards. The relationship is mutually beneficial; Shaymin is able to easily take Ground- and Water-type attacks for Heatran, as well as Electric- and Grass-type attacks for the Water-type, while appreciating the resistances that its partners bring to the table.</p>

<p>This Shaymin functions best in a Fire/Water/Grass defensive core, as its weaknesses and resistances neatly complement that of the core. It provides team support in the form of Leech Seed, which cushions blows and increases Shaymin's overall survivability, and is able to beat a number of specific threats (Rotom-A, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, and Swampert, for example). Also, unlike other sets, this Shaymin can consistently trouble most Blissey. If a Fire-type is used, Heatran is again the best option. There is a wide range of possilibities for a Water-type partner: Vaporeon, Swampert, Suicune, and defensive Gyarados work the best. All of the aforementioned Pokemon are excellent at tanking hits and have their own advantages. Swampert has Roar and Stealth Rock, and also carries an Electric immunity (but beware of Electric-types using Hidden Power Grass, though Shaymin walls them in that case bar Zapdos and Rotom-H). Gyarados counters Fighting-types and Scizor effectively with Intimidate and its Flying-typing, especially with investments in its natural bulk. Vaporeon and Suicune are both very bulky as well. Vaporeon can support the team with Wish, while Suicune makes for a sturdy set-up sweeper.</p>

<p>Leech Seed, if used, forces constant switches, so the best way to exploit this is by setting up Spikes to increase residual damage. Forretress and Skarmory are the best Spikes users in OU, but unfortunately share Shaymin's weakness to Fire. Heatran can absorb these attacks with Flash Fire, and Water-types can sponge them. Forretress can Rapid Spin away hazards and set up Toxic Spikes, while Skarmory can Whirlwind to rack up damage. If you use hazards, make sure to pack a spinblocker such as Rotom-A to defend them!</p>

[SET]
name: Leech Seed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Protect / Substitute
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
nature: Modest
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes a more defensive approach, prolonging Shaymin's life, supporting its team, and draining the HP of threats like Blissey. Leech Seed Shaymin is better suited to more defensive teams, where the residual damage racks up from Leech Seed and the possibility of Special Defense drops force switches while Shaymin regains its HP continuously from Leftovers and Leech Seed. The player's choice between Protect and Substitute allows Shaymin to stall out the opponent while getting free turns of recovery. Seed Flare is used as a STAB attack, and the fourth moveslot is a choice between several coverage options. It's important to note that this set is highly similar to Leech Seed Celebi, who has more support options like Recover, but lacks Celebi's Dark- and Ghost-type weaknesses, as well as only having a 2x weakness to Bug-type attacks.</p>

<p>Protect is the primary option because, despite the HP investment, it is easy enough to break Shaymin's Substitutes, and can be used in a pinch should it have under 25% HP. In this sense, Protect consistently allows Shaymin to abuse Leech Seed. Protect also lets Shaymin scout and guard itself against faster opponents. Substitute is an alternative for blocking status moves like Toxic, as well as offering protection from Trick. Unlike Protect, it allows Shaymin to take advantage of the switch. It is also worth noting that Seismic Toss cannot break 252 HP Shaymin's Substitutes in one turn. Beware of the opponent setting up on your Protects or Substitutes, however! The final moveslot has three options and can be tailored to suit a team's individual needs. Hidden Power Fire gets rid of the Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress who cause this set a lot of grief, though Hidden Power Ice is acceptable if you find Dragonite plaguing you. Both Hidden Powers hit Grass-types--who are immune to Leech Seed--super effectively. Earth Power is a possibility as well for Heatran and Infernape, and does more damage against grounded Steels like Jirachi.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The designated EVs are highly customizable. The spread given has 252 HP to capitalize on Shaymin's natural bulk, and 180 Speed EVs to reach 280 Speed, which allows Shaymin to outspeed Adamant Lucario, +Speed Heatran, and neutral-natured Rotom-A. More EVs can be added for Mamoswine and other Pokémon designed to beat Adamant Lucario, while max Speed is usable for Timid Rotom and Offensive Suicune. Be aware that the Speed number suggested is assuming a 30 Speed IV, so you can deduct 4 EVs from Speed if you are using Hidden Power Ice or Earth Power. The remaining EVs are placed in Special Attack to help Shaymin hit harder, though they can also be invested in Special Defense in order to take Starmie's Ice Beams / Hydro Pumps, random Hidden Powers, and attacks from the likes of Rotom-A better; Shaymin generally switches in on resisted special hits anyway.</p>

<p>This Shaymin functions best in a Fire/Water/Grass defensive core, as its weaknesses and resistances neatly complement that of the core. It provides team support in the form of Leech Seed, which cushions blows and increases Shaymin's overall survivability, and is able to beat a number of specific threats (Rotom-A, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, and Swampert, for example). Also, unlike other sets, this Shaymin can consistently trouble most Blissey. If a Fire-type is used, Heatran is again the best option. There is a wide range of possilibities for a Water-type partner: Vaporeon, Swampert, Suicune, and defensive Gyarados work the best. All of the aforementioned Pokemon are excellent at tanking hits and have their own advantages. Swampert has Roar and Stealth Rock, and also carries an Electric immunity (but beware of Electric-types using Hidden Power Grass, though Shaymin walls them in that case bar Zapdos and Rotom-H). Gyarados counters Fighting-types and Scizor effectively with Intimidate and its Flying-typing, especially with its natural bulk invested in. Vaporeon and Suicune are both very bulky as well. Vaporeon can support the team with Wish, while Suicune makes for a sturdy set-up sweeper.</p>

<p>Leech Seed forces constant switches, so the best way to exploit this is by setting up Spikes to increase residual damage. Forretress and Skarmory are the best Spikes users in OU, but unfortunately share Shaymin's weakness to Fire. Heatran can absorb these attacks with Flash Fire, and Water-types can sponge them. Forretress can Rapid Spin away hazards and set up Toxic Spikes, while Skarmory can Whirlwind to rack up damage. If you use hazards, make sure to pack a spinblocker such as Rotom-A to defend them!</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest
nature: Timid
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With this set, Shaymin can utilize one of two items to boost its respective stat. Choice Scarf takes advantage of Shaymin's base 100 Speed to revenge kill most Pokemon in OU (all Heatran, Jirachi, and +1 Dragonite, as well as +2 Adamant Metagross, Empoleon, and Tyranitar). Choice Specs has raw power without Life Orb recoil. For example, Choice Specs Shaymin OHKOes 4 HP Kingdra, Gyarados, Flygon, and all Tyranitar with Seed Flare; it also 2HKOes Celebi and Specially Defensive Skarmory with a super effective Hidden Power, and Scizor with Earth Power (after Stealth Rock damage). Specs decimates switch-ins and Scarf outspeeds the likes of Scarf Heatran expecting to go first, as well as tying with Flygon. Due to Choice items locking the user into one move, this set requires a lot of prediction, but has good payoff. Be careful of letting your opponent set up multiple layers of Spikes or Heatran get a Flash Fire boost. Hidden Power Ice is handiest to revenge kill Dragonite and Flygon, but Hidden Power Fire is still a useful option for those preferring to hit Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory. Should you get a spare turn, Rest makes for decent filler so that Shaymin can fully recover, but Energy Ball is an option for a clean-up STAB without the accuracy and PP issues of Seed Flare.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Timid is the best nature because +Speed base 100s are common in OU. In the case of the Scarfer, Flygon and Jirachi regularly carry Scarf as well, and in the case of Choice Specs, Jirachi, Celebi, and Zapdos are all worth considering, as well as +Speed Lucario and Roserade and +2 Adamant Metagross and Tyranitar. There are other options for the filler moveslot, but all are generally outclassed. Air Slash and Signal Beam let Shaymin hit other Grass-types (such as Celebi) harder, but Hidden Power Ice and Fire both do plenty of damage anyway, especially if you are using Specs.</p>

<p>Choice Shaymin's best partners are the usual suspects: Heatran and Water-types. However, because this Shaymin lacks Leech Seed and can't switch moves, it is imperative it has a partner who can beat Blissey. Infernape or Explosion Magnezone and Heatran work well for this. Heatran and Magnezone can both lure and KO Blissey with Explosion, as well as take out Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress (particularly necessary if Shaymin is sticking with Hidden Power Ice), since a Choice Seed Flare invites the latter two to set up in its wake. Water-types are great partners for Shaymin because of Heatran and company. Suicune, Kingdra, Starmie, and Gyarados are the best options for that.</p>

[TEAM OPTIONS]

<p>As far as type synergy goes, Shaymin brings useful Electric, Grass, and Water resistances to the table, while carrying with it weaknesses to Fire, Ice, and Bug (as well as less important weaknesses to Flying and Poison). As such, it functions best with Water- and Fire-type partners to cover its typing problems. Since there are several options for both, each team can pick and choose to suit its needs. Heatran and Infernape are the best Fire-types, each with their own distinct advantages (Infernape has Fighting STAB to dispose of Blissey, while Heatran has more bulk and a handy Steel-typing and can Explode on Blissey). As far as Water-types go, it depends on whether the team is more offensively or defensively inclined. Defensive teams have Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, Tentacruel, and Gyarados available; Suicune can Calm Mind on threats, Vaporeon provides Wish and Roar support, Tentacruel can Rapid Spin as well as absorbing and setting up Toxic Spikes, Swampert has Stealth Rock and takes hits especially well, and Gyarados is a great one-size-fits-all counter to Fighting-types and Scizor. Offensive teams may find Kingdra, offensive Suicune and Gyarados, and Starmie to their liking.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock is important for getting certain KOes, but luckily there is a wide range of Pokémon able to set it up. Skarmory and Forretress also learn Spikes and Jirachi makes for a great Stealth Rock user, though they all share Shaymin's burdensome Fire weakness. Heatran and Infernape both learn it as well. Toxic Spikes are handy for stalling out the opponent, especially Blissey, and can be set up by Forretress or Tentacruel. Shaymin appreciates having Toxic Spikes removed because they severely reduce its longevity; Starmie and Forretress can both accomplish this. Note that Shaymin is great at handling most Rotom-A, which takes away from the difficulty of spinning.</p>

<p>Specific needs depend on what Hidden Power Shaymin is carrying. Hidden Power Ice Shaymin worries less about Dragonite, and to an extent Flygon, but is helpless against Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress. Heatran can take them all, as can Magnezone, who traps, KOes them, and has Explosion for Blissey. It is imperative that you carry someone to deal with Spikes if you run Hidden Power Ice, however, be it Magnezone to trap the Spikers or a Rapid Spinner. You can also try to stop them from coming into play by making clever double switches. Hidden Power Fire Shaymin is set-up fodder for Dragonite and needs a partner able to take it on, such as Metagross or Scarf Jirachi. Earth Power-less Shaymin is vulnerable to Heatran, so bring along a Water-type.</p>

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]

<p>Shaymin's movepool is very shallow, and the other options it does have are fairly ineffective. As far as support moves go, it's outclassed by Celebi; Shaymin does have a very inaccurate sleep move in GrassWhistle, as well as Aromatherapy, Safeguard, and Healing Wish&mdash;not much to write home about. Rest or Leech Seed are generally preferable as filler because they are more useful to Shaymin, but it has access to Energy Ball (for reliable STAB), and several other attacks. Air Slash and Signal Beam don't get any extra coverage, but Air Slash <em>can</em> flinch in a pinch, and Signal Beam demolishes Celebi. Psychic can work on Choice Specs Shaymin to 2HKO Dragonite in lieu of Hidden Power Ice, assuming Stealth Rock, and hits Gengar and Roserade super effectively. It gives Tyranitar and other Psychic-resistant a free switch-in, though.</p>

[COUNTERS]

<p>Although it is Shaymin's best ally, Heatran poses a lot of problems. Shaymin can take it out with Earth Power if Heatran is not carrying Choice Scarf or Shuca Berry, but Heatran can come in on all of its other moves unscathed. Infernape has trouble switching in repeatedly and has to be careful of Earth Power, but it outspeeds Shaymin and has Fire STAB to roast the little hedgehog with. Without Hidden Power Fire, Skarmory, Forretress, and Scizor all take advantage of Shaymin; without Hidden Power Ice, Dragonite completely walls it. Zapdos, particularly Specially Defensive Zapdos, can hit Shaymin with Heat Wave and Roost away damage (being cautious of Earth Power). Without Life Orb, Roserade and Celebi can exploit it, and as Grass-types, they are immune to Leech Seed; however, both are 2HKOed by a Life Orb-boosted, super effective Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>There are a number of Pokémon who can wall Shaymin, but a lot of their defensive strategies will fall apart if their Special Defense drops or Shaymin has Leech Seed. Blissey walls Shaymin and can force it out with Toxic, though it must be careful of the aforementioned problems. Both Cresselia and Blissey can threaten it with Ice Beam, too. Most Blissey generally cannot really harm Shaymin though, and if it stays in on Leech Seed, it becomes Pursuit bait for a number of Pokémon. Snorlax can set up on Shaymin as well, though it loses to Leech Seed.</p>

hey Jumpluff, nice update. just posting to say that i think LO Shaymin can get a mention of synthesis in comments. assuming SS isnt in play, i think its a superior option than rest and leech seed. Tyranitars usage was 18.03% in June and Hippowdons was 4.88% for reference.

Yeah, you're right. I will mention it in the comments. I forgot it gets Synthesis lol, since I prefer Rest / Leech Seed. Thank you!

I think on the choice sets Air Slash should get some mention. Especially with scarf your going to be going first if you rest your going to be taking damage anyways. Which would give you another reason to split these sets up.

EDIT: also, i think some IVs\natures should be put up specifically for HP ice. It honestly took me an hour trying to figure this out. For timid and HP ice you have to use 30\31\30\31\31\31. Team builders options are terrible and for awhile i was running 20 hp Ivs before i figured this out.

I think that there should be a mention of Paralysis support in Team Options for Leech Seed Shaymin. Shaymin becomes incredibly tough too take down when the opponent has a 25% chance to be unable to move and its attacks are blocked by Protect, while it continuously gains health with Leech Seed and Leftovers.
I also think that Air Slash deserves a mention in AC on Choice (Scarf) Shaymin. A 30% chance to flinch can sometimes win the game, and provides a more powerful attack opposing Grass Pokes then Hidden Power, and is a good attack against Fighting Pokemon, when you want to save Seed Flare's PP.

Hey Jumpluff, this is my first time posting here, but I'm just curious as to why the spread of 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe for the Leech Seed set that was featured in the Smog isn't mentioned here? I'm guessing additional EV spreads come after approval from QC.

symphonyx64 said:

Hey Jumpluff, this is my first time posting here, but I'm just curious as to why the spread of 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe for the Leech Seed set that was featured in the Smog isn't mentioned here? I'm guessing additional EV spreads come after approval from QC.

Click to expand...

tbh its pretty hard to agree on one leech seed set, a person can go for physically defense shaymin as you noted. I personally like to run max hp with enough speed to outspeed max speed timid rotom, when it comes down to it its just what you want it to do. I like the one posted in the OP and maybe this physically bulky one can get a mention in AC

GB_Packers_Ftw said:

EDIT: also, i think some IVs\natures should be put up specifically for HP ice. It honestly took me an hour trying to figure this out. For timid and HP ice you have to use 30\31\30\31\31\31. Team builders options are terrible and for awhile i was running 20 hp Ivs before i figured this out.

Click to expand...

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63866

bulky leech seed spread should go in ac

other than that, looks good

QC APPROVED (2/3)

I like the look of the OP. Nothing to object/add; everything has been covered pretty well.



Or

Approved (3/3)


Jumpluff, I look forward to your write up. Moved.

What I have actually found to be at least as common as the Life Orb set (and honestly much more useful) is the same moveset but @lefties. Shaymin often relies on hitting for SE damage anyway, so the lefties recovery can be extremely useful for getting repeated switches into rotom, jolteon, ice beaming bulky waters, etc. with a much lower risk of being KO'd. The set name could be changed to "3 Attack + Recovery" or something; the items would then be slashed.

I'm really happy Shaymin is finally updated as its current analysis dates a lot. I greatly support you, jumpluff, and cant wait to see the next step. Never give up and go for it! Although i cannot QC approve this, ill do my best:


On a more serious note, though I'm surprised you didnt mention support sets anywhere, because Shaymin has great stats and Aromatherapy+Healing Wish. Yes I believe Celebi does all that better, but the fact that Shaymin Is not weak to pursuit and doesnt get killed by a leech life, imo, need at least a mention.

Thanks, guys, and props to the QC team for the quick approval. Will edit Leftovers in -- silly oversight of me, considering my current ladder team uses that set with Leftovers right now, haha. Thank you <3. I'll just name it '3 Attacks' and slash Leftovers in.

Universal Berry -- it's not really effective enough as its own set imo, since Celebi gets Thunder Wave and Recover, but rest assured I haven't forgotten it gets those (trust me, I went through, like, everything =P). I'll make sure to mention that they can be used in the Other Options. Cute stamp, and thank you for your input and compliments, really made me smile.

GB_Packers_FTW -- thanks for your post. I will put a few sentences in on which IV spreads to use to make the analysis easier to use. I don't really like Air Slash since it's inaccurate, doesn't get STAB, and is somewhat redundant. I think if anything I'd prefer to Psychic or Energy Ball. I will make sure to mention its offensive options in Other Options though.

Symph -- Any spreads are possible, really. I plan to mention the number of Speed numbers available as you can see in my bullet points. I prefer a bit of Speed since there are a lot of threats Shaymin really likes the jump on, like Rotom-A. Full bulk is definitely an option and I will note that Shaymin can be EVed purely for bulk. Thank you!

Edited this in, it's ready for GP checks! I do appreciate content suggestions though.

GP CHECK 1/2

pink is grammar edits
blue is prose edits
comments in red (at paragraph ends)

[OVERVIEW]

<p>When considering Grass-types, Shaymin is inevitably compared to Celebi. Both are base 100 Grass-types with Natural Cure, and Celebi has the edge in its host of support moves (including Recover). However, Shaymin gives it a run for its money with Seed Flare and a lack of Psychic-typing to hold it back. Rounded base 100 stats provide Shaymin with respectable offense, solid bulk, and an important Speed stat, while Natural Cure allows Shaymin to switch out and heal the kinds of status that cripple other sweepers. Despite its movepool being somewhat shallow, Shaymin gets most of the coverage it needs, and has access to Seed Flare, its powerful signature move; Seed Flare's Special Defense drops mean even Blissey must be careful around it. A sturdy sweeper, Shaymin fits well in most Fire/Water/Grass cores, and has the ability to get rid of many of OU's bulky threats, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Rotom-A, bulky Water-types (such as Suicune and Vaporeon), and Gliscor, giving it a useful role in the metagame.</p>

<p>However, Scizor, Heatran, and Dragonite, all top threats in OU, all give it some trouble, and without the right Hidden Power, it can be set up on easily. Grass as a type has poor coverage in OU because of the prominence of Steel- and Dragon-types, but it also hits the common Water- and Ground-types super effectively, and can easily switch in on Water and Electric moves. Overall, the pros outweigh the cons when using Shaymin, and while it doesn't fit on all teams, it's certainly a threat to be addressed.</p>

(I'm not sure what to put as the final word/words in the last sentence of the above paragraph; you cannot say "contended with" as you can't end a sentence with a preposition, so I changed it to "addressed". however, I'm not entirely satisfied with that change, so you can choose anything else you want to go there as long as its grammatically correct ^_^)

[SET]
name: Three Attacks
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest / Leech Seed
nature: Timid / Modest
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is a standard offensive Shaymin set with three attacks and a recovery move. This set troubles bulky teams and has the Speed, bulk, and Special Attack to threaten more offensive teams. Seed Flare is Shaymin's staple STAB move, KOing many bulky Waters and Grounds with Life Orb attached. Hippowdon, offensive Rotom-A, and Water-types like Vaporeon and unboosted CroCune all fall to a single Seed Flare (after Stealth Rock damage). Even Blissey is afraid of switching in on Seed Flare due to the possibility of a harsh Special Defense decrease. Earth Power is on the set to augment coverage, hitting many of the Pokémon who resist Seed Flare super effectively, such as Heatran and Jirachi. The Hidden Power is a matter of preference and team needs; both hit opposing Grass-types and other key threats. Hidden Power Ice allows a 31 Speed IV and wipes out Dragonite and other Flying-types, who otherwise come in on Shaymin with impunity, whereas Hidden Power Fire roasts Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress. Lastly, one can choose either Rest or Leech Seed to keep Shaymin alive. Rest lets Shaymin abuse Natural Cure for full recovery on the switch, but Leech Seed saps away Blissey and Snorlax's HP, as well as cushioning attacks for the team and negating Life Orb recoil. Synthesis is a viable alternative for instant 50% recovery, but sandstorm is prevalent in OU, rendering it useless most of the time. For those who prefer a compromise between survivability over raw power, Leftovers is an excellent item option, although it misses out on KOes.</p>

(in the second to last sentence in the above para, I changed "Sand Stream" to "sandstorm", as imo its the weather condition that's prevalent (as opposed to the ability). however, that's a pretty pick-and-choose change, so it's up to you as to whether or not you wish to change it)

<p>A standard offensive Shaymin set, with three attacks and a recovery move. This set troubles bulky teams and has the good Speed, bulk, and Special Attack to threaten more offensive teams. Seed Flare is Shaymin's staple STAB, KOing many bulky Waters and Grounds with Life Orb attached. Hippowdon, offensive Rotom-A, and Water-types like Vaporeon and unboosted CroCune all fall to a single Seed Flare (assuming Stealth Rock). Even Blissey has to be wary of switching in on Seed Flare due to the possibility of a harsh Special Defense decrease; with Leech Seed, there is a high chance it will end up losing to Shaymin anyway. Earth Power is there to augment coverage, hitting many of the Pokémon who resist Seed Flare super effectively, such as Heatran and Jirachi. The Hidden Power is a matter of preference and team needs; both hit opposing Grass-types and other key threats. Hidden Power Ice allows a 31 Speed IV and wipes out Dragonite and other Flying-types, who otherwise come in on it with impunity, whereas Hidden Power Fire roasts Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress. Lastly, one can choose either of Rest and Leech Seed to keep Shaymin alive. Rest lets it abuse Natural Cure for full recovery on the switch, but Leech Seed saps away Blissey and Snorlax's HP, as well as cushioning attacks for the team and negating Life Orb recovery. Synthesis is a viable alternative for instant 50% recovery, but Sand Stream is prevalent in OU, rendering it useless. For those who prefer a compromise between survivability over raw power, Leftovers is an excellent option, although it misses out on KOes.</p>

(silly jumpluff! you have the same para twice :P just remove the above one)

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Shaymin works well as part of an offensive Fire/Water/Grass core. This core is useful because their weaknesses and resistances complement each other well, and there are many options for offensive teams. Heatran is the best option for the Fire-type due to its bulk and power. It can run a number of sets and lure Blissey in only to Explode on it. Suicune, Kingdra, and Gyarados all perform wonderfully in the Water-type slot. Kingdra and Gyarados can hit special walls with strong physical attacks (Taunt Gyarados in particular can set up on Blissey and Skarmory, while benefiting from Shaymin's ability to deal with Rotom-A). Suicune has the natural bulk to tank hits from Fire-types, and is particularly useful when you are utilizing Hidden Power Fire, as it makes for a good check to Dragonite. Another option is Starmie, who, while generally useless against Blissey, can wash Skarmory away and use Rapid Spin to rid the field of the opponent's entry hazards. The relationship is mutually beneficial; Shaymin is able to easily take Ground- and Water-type attacks for Heatran, as well as Electric- and Grass-type attacks for the Water-type, while appreciating the resistances that its partners bring to the table.</p>

<p>Whichever Hidden Power the user chooses will leave Shaymin open to an important threat. Hidden Power Fire Shaymin can fend for itself against most Pokemon, but it is set-up fodder for Dragonite. Suicune can take a hit from Dragonite and retaliate with Ice Beam; Jirachi and Heatran take Outrage fairly well due to their Steel-typing, but have to be careful of Dragonite's other moves. Heatran again works well here because it does not add another Fire weakness to the team, whereas Scarf Jirachi can revenge kill a +1 Dragonite. Metagross is another alternative who can crush Blissey and other special walls. Hidden Power Ice Shaymin struggles against Skarmory, Forretress, and Scizor, all of whom can set up on or U-turn on it. Multiple layers of Spikes pose a significant threat, so if the user isn't carrying a Rapid Spinner or Heatran, they may want to consider Magnezone, who can trap and KO them. Like any Pokémon, Shaymin benefits from the presence of entry hazards on the opponent's side and the lack of them on its own. Starmie and Forretress are viable spinners, and Forretress can lay its own hazards, but it shares Shaymin's Fire weakness. Heatran, Metagross, and Jirachi are good Stealth Rock users as well.</p>

[SET]
name: Leech Seed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Protect / Substitute
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
nature: Modest
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes a more defensive approach, prolonging Shaymin's life, supporting its team, and draining the HP of threats like Blissey. Leech Seed Shaymin is better suited to more defensive teams, where the residual damage racks up from Leech Seed and the possibility of Special Defense drops force switches while Shaymin regains its HP continuously from Leftovers and Leech Seed. The player's choice between Protect and Substitute allows Shaymin to stall out the opponent while getting free turns of recovery. Seed Flare is used as a STAB attack, and the fourth moveslot is a choice between several coverage options. It's important to note that this set is highly similar to Leech Seed Celebi, who has more support options like Recover, but lacks Celebi's Dark- and Ghost-type weaknesses, as well as only having a 2x weakness to Bug-type attacks.</p>

<p>Protect is the primary option because, despite the HP investment, it is easy enough to break Shaymin's Substitutes, and can be used in a pinch should it have under 25% HP. In this sense, Protect consistently allows Shaymin to abuse Leech Seed. Protect also lets Shaymin scout and guard itself against faster opponents. Substitute is an alternative for blocking status moves like Toxic, as well as offering protection from Trick. Unlike Protect, it allows Shaymin to take advantage of the switch. It is also worth noting that Seismic Toss cannot break 252 HP Shaymin's Substitutes in one turn. Beware of the opponent setting up on your Protects or Substitutes, however! The final moveslot has three options and can be tailored to suit a team's individual needs. Hidden Power Fire gets rid of the Skarmory, Scizor, and Forretress who cause this set a lot of grief, though Hidden Power Ice is acceptable if you find Dragonite plaguing you. Both Hidden Powers hit Grass-types--who are immune to Leech Seed--super effectively. Earth Power is a possibility as well for Heatran and Infernape, and does more damage against grounded Steels like Jirachi.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The designated EVs are highly customizable. The spread given has 252 HP to capitalize on Shaymin's natural bulk, and 180 Speed EVs to reach 280 Speed, which allows Shaymin to outspeed Adamant Lucario, +Speed Heatran, and neutral-natured Rotom-A. More EVs can be added for Mamoswine and other Pokémon designed to beat Adamant Lucario, while max Speed is usable for Timid Rotom and Offensive Suicune. Be aware that the Speed number suggested is assuming a 30 Speed IV, so you can deduct 4 EVs from Speed if you are using Hidden Power Ice or Earth Power. The remaining EVs are placed in Special Attack to help Shaymin hit harder, though they can also be invested in your chosen defense (Special Defense is recommended in order to take Starmie's Ice Beams / Hydro Pumps, random Hidden Powers, and attacks from the likes of Rotom-A better; Shaymin generally switches in on resisted special hits anyway).</p>

<p>This Shaymin functions best in a Fire/Water/Grass defensive core, as its weaknesses and resistances neatly complement that of the core. It provides team support in the form of Leech Seed, which cushions blows and increases Shaymin's overall survivability, and is able to beat a number of specific threats (Rotom-A, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, and Swampert, for example). Also, unlike other sets, this Shaymin can consistently trouble most Blissey. If a Fire-type is used, Heatran is again the best option. There is a wide range of possilibities for a Water-type partner: Vaporeon, Swampert, Suicune, and defensive Gyarados work the best. All of the aforementioned Pokemon are excellent at tanking hits and have their own advantages. Swampert has Roar and Stealth Rock, and also carries an Electric immunity (but beware of Electric-types using Hidden Power Grass, though Shaymin walls them in that case bar Zapdos and Rotom-H). Gyarados counters Fighting-types and Scizor effectively with Intimidate and its Flying-typing, especially with its natural bulk invested in. Vaporeon and Suicune are both very bulky as well. Vaporeon can support the team with Wish, while Suicune makes for a sturdy set-up sweeper.</p>

<p>Leech Seed forces constant switches, so the best way to exploit this is by setting up Spikes to increase residual damage. Forretress and Skarmory are the best Spikes users in OU, but unfortunately share Shaymin's weakness to Fire. Heatran can absorb these attacks with Flash Fire, and Water-types can sponge them. Forretress can Rapid Spin away hazards and set up Toxic Spikes, while Skarmory can Whirlwind to rack up damage. If you use hazards, make sure to pack a spinblocker such as Rotom-A to defend them!</p>

(I checked the grammar and spelling standards article to see the proper punctuation, and it seems that "spinblocker" has no space, so I made the appropriate change. however, that seems like one of those C&C terms that is ever-changing, so I would take the change with a grain of salt)

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Rest
nature: Timid
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With this set, Shaymin can utilize one of two items to boost its respective stat. Choice Scarf takes advantage of Shaymin's base 100 Speed to revenge kill most Pokemon in OU (all Heatran, Jirachi, and +1 Dragonite, as well as +2 Adamant Metagross, Empoleon, and Tyranitar). Choice Specs has raw power without Life Orb recoil. For example, Choice Specs Shaymin OHKOes 4 HP Kingdra, Gyarados, Flygon, and all Tyranitar with Seed Flare; it also 2HKOes Celebi and Specially Defensive Skarmory with a super effective Hidden Power, and Scizor with Earth Power (after Stealth Rock damage). Specs decimates switch-ins and Scarf outspeeds the likes of Scarf Heatran expecting to go first, as well as tying with Flygon. Due to Choice items locking the user into one move, this set requires a lot of prediction, but has good payoff. Be careful of letting your opponent set up multiple layers of Spikes or Heatran getting a Flash Fire boost. Hidden Power Ice is handiest to revenge kill Dragonite and Flygon, but Hidden Power Fire is still a useful option for those preferring to hit Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory. Should you get a spare turn, Rest makes for decent filler so that Shaymin can fully recover, but Energy Ball is an option for a clean-up STAB without the accuracy and PP issues of Seed Flare.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Timid is the best nature because +Speed base 100s are common in OU. In the case of the Scarfer, Flygon and Jirachi regularly carry Scarf as well, and in the case of Choice Specs, Jirachi, Celebi, and Zapdos are all worth considering, as well as +Speed Lucario and Roserade and +2 Adamant Metagross and Tyranitar. There are other options for the filler moveslot, but all are generally outclassed. Air Slash and Signal Beam let Shaymin hit other Grass-types (such as Celebi) harder, but Hidden Power Ice and Fire both do plenty of damage anyway, especially if you are using Specs.</p>

<p>Choice Shaymin's best partners are the usual suspects: Heatran and Water-types. However, because this Shaymin lacks Leech Seed and can't switch moves, it is imperative it has a partner who can beat Blissey. Infernape or Explosion Magnezone and Heatran work well for this. Heatran and Magnezone can both lure and KO Blissey with Explosion, as well as take out Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress (particularly necessary if Shaymin is sticking with Hidden Power Ice), since a Choice Seed Flare invites the latter two to set up in its wake. Water-types are great partners for Shaymin because of Heatran and company, and Suicune, Kingdra, Starmie, and Gyarados are the best options for that.</p>

[TEAM OPTIONS]

<p>As far as type synergy goes, Shaymin brings useful Electric, Grass, and Water resistances to the table, while carrying with it weaknesses to Fire, Ice, and Bug (as well as less important weaknesses to Flying and Poison). As such, it functions best with Water- and Fire-type partners to cover its typing problems. Since there are several options for both, each team can pick and choose to suit its needs. Heatran and Infernape are the best Fire-types, each with their own distinct advantages (Infernape has Fighting STAB to dispose of Blissey, while Heatran has more bulk and a handy Steel-typing and can Explode on Blissey). As far as Water-types go, it depends on whether the team is more offensively or defensively inclined. Defensive teams have Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, Tentacruel, and Gyarados available; Suicune can Calm Mind on threats, Vaporeon provides Wish and Roar support, Tentacruel can Rapid Spin as well as absorbing and setting up Toxic Spikes, Swampert has Stealth Rock and takes hits especially well, and Gyarados is a great one-size-fits-all counter to Fighting-types and Scizor. Offensive teams may find Kingdra, offensive Suicune and Gyarados, and Starmie to their liking.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock is important for getting certain KOes, but luckily there is a wide range of Pokémon able to set it up. Skarmory and Forretress also learn Spikes and Jirachi makes for a great Stealth Rock user, though they all share Shaymin's burdensome Fire weakness. Heatran and Infernape both learn it as well. Toxic Spikes are handy for stalling out the opponent, especially Blissey, and can be set up by Forretress or Tentacruel. Shaymin appreciates having Toxic Spikes removed because they severely reduce its longevity; Starmie and Forretress can both accomplish this. Note that Shaymin is great at handling most Rotom-A, which takes away from the difficulty of spinning.</p>

(in the above para I decided to remove the parantheses in the third sentence in which you mention that Heatran is Shaymin's best partner, as I don't think its relevant to what point you were trying to make in that instance. however, feel free to disagree!)

<p>Specific needs depend on what Hidden Power Shaymin is carrying. Hidden Power Ice Shaymin worries less about Dragonite, and to an extent Flygon, but is helpless against Scizor, Skarmory, and Forretress. Heatran can take them all, as can Magnezone, who traps and KOes them and has Explosion for Blissey. It is imperative that you carry someone to deal with Spikes if you run Hidden Power Ice, however, be it Magnezone to trap the Spikers or a Rapid Spinner. You can also try to stop them from coming into play by making clever double switches. Hidden Power Fire Shaymin is set-up fodder for Dragonite and needs a partner able to take it on, such as Metagross or Scarf Jirachi. Earth Power-less Shaymin is vulnerable to Heatran, so bring along a Water-type.</p>

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]

<p>Shaymin's movepool is very shallow, and the other options it does have are fairly ineffective. As far as support moves go, it's outclassed by Celebi; Shaymin does have a very inaccurate sleep move in GrassWhistle, as well as Aromatherapy, Safeguard, and Healing Wish&mdash;not much to write home about. Rest or Leech Seed are generally preferable because they are more useful to Shaymin, but it has access to Energy Ball (for reliable STAB), and several other attacks. Air Slash and Signal Beam don't get any extra coverage, but Air Slash <em>can</em> flinch in a pinch, and Signal Beam demolishes Celebi. Psychic can work on Choice Specs Shaymin to 2HKO Dragonite in lieu of Hidden Power Ice, assuming Stealth Rock, and hits Gengar and Roserade super effectively. It gives Tyranitar and half of the metagame a free switch-in, though.</p>

[COUNTERS]

<p>Although it is Shaymin's best ally, Heatran poses a lot of problems. Shaymin can take it out with Earth Power if Heatran is not carrying Choice Scarf or Shuca Berry, but Heatran can come in on all of its other moves unscathed. Infernape has trouble switching in repeatedly and has to be careful of Earth Power, but it outspeeds Shaymin and has Fire STAB to roast the little hedgehog with. Without Hidden Power Fire, Skarmory, Forretress, and Scizor all take advantage of Shaymin; without Hidden Power Ice, Dragonite completely walls it. Zapdos, particularly Specially Defensive Zapdos, can hit Shaymin with Heat Wave and Roost away damage (being cautious of Earth Power). Without Life Orb, Roserade and Celebi can exploit it, and as Grass-types, they are immune to Leech Seed; however, both are 2HKOed by a Life Orb-boosted super effective Hidden Power Fire.</p>

<p>There are a number of Pokémon who can wall Shaymin, but a lot of their defensive strategies will fall apart if their Special Defense drops or Shaymin has Leech Seed. Blissey walls Shaymin and can force it out with Toxic, though it must be careful of the aforementioned problems. Both Cresselia and Blissey can threaten it with Ice Beam, too. Most Blissey generally cannot really harm Shaymin though, and if it stays in on Leech Seed, it becomes Pursuit bait for a number of Pokémon. Snorlax can set up on Shaymin as well, though it loses to Leech Seed.</p>

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nice job, pluffers ^____^ note that you used "who" in place of "that" often in the beginning of the analysis, so I changed all "that"s in the analysis to "who"s. however, this may not be what you want; if this is the case, then feel free to make everything in the analysis "that"s. just make sure it stays consistent! :)

Thanks a lot, Snorlaxe! ^_^ Implemented your changes.

didn't see it mentioned but the obligatory "if you subseed you can use 0 HP EVs to make you recover more max hp" would be nice

also an OC mention of grass knot anywhere you use seed flare would be nice since the pp and accuracy can be helpful and shaymin's typing still makes it better than celebi

also to note: any shaymin that don't care about their Speed can be outclassed by a tangrowth that puts EVs in special defense; be weary of that

[SET]
name: Leech Seed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Protect / Substitute
move 3: Seed Flare
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice / Earth Power
nature: Modest
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe

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These EVs and nature don't even outrun offensive cune or jolly gyara, which is terrible IMO. You may as well just have timid as the main option to beat everything up to jolly lucario unless there's some super important KO modest is getting. because a lot of teams are going to want to use shaymin as a suicune check but it won't help them if shaymin is a bit weakened, outsped, and KOed by +1 ice beam.

I mentioned a lot of alternative spreads in the comments. I personally prefer the spread given as the primary option and it's the one I'm most comfortable with recommending since it's the one I use, but I do agree that that is viable. Shaymin has to have taken a fair bit of damage to be consistently KOed by Suicune in any case. Thank you for your post, though!

@Chris: I disagree, though I'm glad you've read this. All Shaymin care about their Speed, even if they don't max it. Shaymin's base 100 stats mean even though Tangrowth can invest everything in two stats, it still can't really match Shaymin in attacking (Seed Flare + good base SpA) or even Speed. If you check the speed tiers, even low speed Shaymin outspeed a lot more things than Tangrowth. Tangrowth also lacks Natural Cure. It does get Sleep Powder and Stun Spore, but those kinds of sets play pretty differently anyway.

GP Check 2 / 2



Deletion
Correction
Comments



I didn't find that much, so hopefully that's not my fault :P

Looks good. Nice work Jumpluff

Okay, before we all go happy-zerky on Shaymin almost getting uploaded...

Changes in Green
Deletions in Red
Comments in Blue

<p>Shaymin's movepool is very shallow, and the other options it does have are fairly ineffective. As far as support moves go, it's outclassed by Celebi; Shaymin has a very inaccurate sleep-inducing move in GrassWhistle, as well as Aromatherapy, Safeguard, and Healing Wish&mdash;not much to write home about. Rest or Leech Seed are generally preferable because they are more useful to Shaymin, but it has access to Energy Ball (for reliable STAB), and several other attacks (and those moves are relevant to Rest and Leech Seed because?). Air Slash and Signal Beam don't get any extra coverage, but Air Slash <em>can</em> flinch in a pinch, and Signal Beam demolishes Celebi. Psychic can work on Choice Specs Shaymin to 2HKO Dragonite in lieu of Hidden Power Ice, assuming Stealth Rock, and hits Gengar and Roserade super effectively. It gives Tyranitar and other Psychic-resistant Pokemon a free switch-in, though.</p>

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They're relevant because Rest and Leech Seed are usually the filler options. I'll add that in. <em> and &mdash; are HTML. Thanks, AccidentalGreed and DJXO9!

Uploaded and shipping moving.