Venusaur (Update)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venusaur

Taken over by Eo.

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[OVERVIEW]

<p>When Venusaur was first dropped into the UU tier, nobody could've foreseen how dominant it was destined to become. It has just the right stat distribution and movepool to excel as a bulky sweeper, notable features including complementary STAB moves in Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm, somewhat-reliable recovery in Synthesis, and the ability to instantly disable an opposing Pokemon in Sleep Powder. Not only this, but Venusaur also has a plethora of other options and the stats to make use of them; it can run defensive, physical, and mixed sets effectively as well. Despite these attributes, Venusaur's middling Speed and predictable coverage ensure that it is capable of being countered. By no means, however, should this top-tier threat be overlooked.</p>


[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Synthesis
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is Venusaur's bread-and-butter set, and it utilizes its fantastic Special Attack score and dual STAB to the fullest extent. Venusaur's respectable defensive stats and array of resistances let it switch into many prominent UU Pokemon, including Spiritomb, Milotic, and Sceptile, with the threat of unleashing a powerful, Life Orb-boosted Leaf Storm or Sludge Bomb. Only several Pokemon resist this combination, the most common being Registeel, Drapion, and Weezing, and this is where Sleep Powder comes into play. Sleep Powder allows Venusaur to incapacitate a counter and net a free turn in the process; in some cases, it even lets Venusaur beat some of its would-be counters. For instance, Venusaur can hit a Chansey switch-in with a powerful Leaf Storm and follow up with Sleep Powder to prevent it from recovering with Softboiled. Natural Cure will ensure that Sleep Clause does not activate once Chansey is switched out, so Venusaur can repeat this tactic every time it switches in until, barring a miss or one-turn sleep, Chansey is KOed. Synthesis rounds off Venusaur's moveset, healing damage incurred through Life Orb recoil or from attacks such as Milotic's Surf or Azumarill's Waterfall.</p>

<p>This set utilizes a fairly standard sweeper's EV spread. A Timid nature and maximum Speed are used to tie with the other base 80s the plague the UU tier, including Kabutops and Blaziken. Special Attack is maximized to augment Venusaur's damage output. Even with no investment in its defensive stats, Venusaur remains fairly bulky, both physically and specially, a trait that separates it from other Grass-type sweepers such as Sceptile and Leafeon. Unlike them, Venusaur can, for example, switch fairly comfortably into Ice Beam from bulky Water-types such as Blastoise and Milotic.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>In terms of coverage, Venusaur's special movepool is all but barren outside of Leaf Storm and Sludge Bomb, although Hidden Power can be used to hit specific counters if needed. Hidden Power Ground helps against Registeel and Drapion, Hidden Power Rock will OHKO Moltres and Scyther, and Hidden Power Psychic is Venusaur's best option to hit Toxicroak and specially defensive Weezing. Alternate EV spreads, which sacrifice Speed for additional bulk and power, include 164 HP / 252 SpA / 92 Spe (Modest), which allows Venusaur to outspeed +Speed base 50s (particularly Aggron) and defensive Rotom, and 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe (Modest), which lets Venusaur outpace +Speed Torterra, Omastar, and Exeggutor, in addition to the Pokemon beat by the former spread.</p>

<p>Registeel and specially defensive Arcanine are the most common defensive counters to this set; the former is especially problematic, as Venusaur has no chance of defeating it even after putting it to sleep. The most reliable answers to these threats are bulky Ground-types, namely Rhyperior and Donphan. Both are capable of switching into the aforementioned problem Pokemon, forcing them out by threat of a STAB, super effective Earthquake, and setting up Stealth Rock to limit the switch-ins of the numerous Venusaur counters weak to Stealth Rock. Providing that it doesn’t switch in on an attack, Dugtrio is a more immediate way of dismantling the walls that stand in Venusaur’s way, Earthquake OHKOing most Arcanine and 2HKOing most Registeel. Additionally, all three of these Ground-types can handle Poison-types such as Drapion and Muk who, while less commonly used to check Venusaur, are troublesome because they resist both of Venusaur’s STAB moves. </p>

<p>Offensive counters to Venusaur consist primarily of UU’s flurry of Flying-types, including Scyther, Swellow, and Altaria. Stealth Rock helps a lot in wearing these Pokemon down, and an excellent choice for setting it up is Registeel, who, thanks to its typing, is a dependable answer to most of the physically-based Flying-types in the tier. Fire-types such as Houndoom and Moltres are just as problematic: the best answer to these Pokemon lie in bulky Waters, particularly Milotic and Azumarill, who not only manhandle most Fire-types, but also attract Grass and Electric-type attacks from Pokemon such as Sceptile and Rotom on which Venusaur can comfortably switch. Fire-types incidentally also make stellar partners to Venusaur, completing the classic UU Fire/Water/Grass core. For a sturdy partner, Arcanine is a good choice: specially defensive variants wall Houndoom and Moltres, offensive variants wreck Registeel, and physically defensive variants beat Scyther; however, frailer Fire-types such as Blaziken and Houndoom also have niches, the former better equipped to deal with Clefable and Chansey, the latter better suited to take down Weezing. All of these Pokemon will also lure in Water-types that Venusaur can take advantage of.</p>

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Earthquake / Return
move 4: Sleep Powder
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

- leftovers means you can use venusaur's resistances a lot more with sd (it can set up on lots of things so longevity is appreciated)
- earthquake for registeel and drapion as well as blaziken/houndoom/arcanine to an extent
- return for moltres, altaria, and weezing
- ac: synthesis over swords dance if you find yourself attacking off the bat more; use life orb with it for the extra kick

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Grass Knot / Leaf Storm
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Sleep Powder / Roar
move 4: Synthesis / Leech Seed
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe

- sludge bomb hits leafeon and sceptile and synthesis recovers HP
- gk can be used more than once on stuff like milotic/steelix but leaf storm does a lot of damage to frailer sweepers in one shot; gk still hits big fat heavy offense sweepers (rhyperior, aggron, etc) for big damage
- sleep powder lets it check sd venusaur which is why it's preferred over leech seed
- 92 speed hits 219 stat, rest of evs towards defense

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Power Whip
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Sleep Powder / Roar
move 4: Leech Seed / Synthesis
item: Leftovers
nature: Sassy
evs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe

- power whip is needed to hit mismagius and assorted special sweepers since they are usually more physically frail and they can calm mind
- good electric/ghost/water/special grass switch
- sludge bomb for subseed sceptile
- heal bell support to recover from mismagius/rotom will o wisps
- has more free turns to spam leech seed because it generally switches into lower powered attacks (compared to the physically defensive set)
- 16 speed beats rhyperior

[SET]
name: Mix
move 1: Sludge Bomb
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Synthesis / Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Hasty
evs: 136 Atk / 120 SpA / 252 Spe

- power whip 2hkos chansey/milotic/slowbro
- sludge bomb ohkoes pure grass pokemon; 120 satk is just enough to kill moltres with sr
- sleep powder synthesis provide utility
- eq to hit drapion/registeel/toxicroak
- max speed to beat sd gatr, but +atk is needed to get more mileage out of power whip (main sweeping move). -def nature to switch into surf/ice beam.

[SET]
name: Scarf
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

- raikous gone so no eq needed; hp ice hits altaria/torterra
- revenges rp aggron/rp torterra and most water sweepers as well

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Sludge Bomb / Energy Ball
move 4: Sleep Powder / Energy Ball
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD

- stab sludge bomb and sleep powder let it set up woo
- defense evs for registeel iron head (subs)
- sdef for milotic's ice beam (not 2hkoed by lo timid)
- grass move to ohko omastar/kabutops, hit donphan, beat milotic 1v1 guaranteed
- paralysis support useful for venusaur
- sub ghosts set up all over this; if sleep clause is activated + no body slam then other venusaur can beat you. funnily enough if you can't sleep donphan then it also beats you (spin for seed)
- clefable sucks

teammates: spiritomb/milotic/registeel/rhyperior/clefable/altaria defensively, while azumarill/blaziken/houndoom/arcanine are good offensively for luring out easy switches for venusaur. dugtrio traps registeel and donphan/rhyperior set up on it.

counters: arcanine/moltres/altaria/drapion/registeel/weezing/scyther/clefable for various sets, then faster pokemon like houndoom/alakazam/swellow can revenge

I think the mixed set is fine with a simple Power Whip / Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder / Synthesis. I don't think you need to slash Earthquake whistle cause this really has no business staying in on Registeel when you can easily double switch your way to someone like Rhyperior or Torterra. Sleep Powder places it to a deep slumber anyways. The mix sets best initial switch has always been Registeel and partnering it with several specially-inclined Pokemon like Alakazam and Mismagius makes an excellent offensive partner. I mean you could mention Earthquake in AC, but that's just my opinion. Synthesis and Sleep Powder are too good to pass up.

On the special tank, aim for a speed point where you can outpace 4 Spe Milotic at all times. This ensures that Milotic will not recover from your Power Whip's. On another note, the physical set aim for 252 HP / 168 Def / 16 Spe / 72 SpD with a Bold. This serves more of a balanced spread somewhat as the EVs ensure you survive +2 LO shadow ball Mismagius from what I can remember, while the Speed ensures you beat Adamant Aggron. This physical set definitely wants Leaf Storm and Sludge for attacking options. whistle already raised a good point with dealing with physical grass, but Leaf Storm is highly recommended if you want to beat the shit out of Aggron for a possibly OHKO. The rest of the EVs maximizes on Venusaur's ability to take Waterfalls from Azumarill, Feraligatr, etc.

Seeing as I was the one who wrote the Venusaur revamp before Fs1, I can take responsibility and patch this up towards the current metagame if Fs1 isn't planning on working on this.

On the physically defensive set, running 68 SPE to beat Adamant Torterra and Milotic attempting to outrun Torterra is pretty important...because otherwise LO Torterra 2hkos you and Milotic 2hkos you with Ice Beam. The specially defensive spread doesn't need that much speed because you should never switch it on Torterra ever and Milotic's Ice Beam is not nearly as threatening. I think the physically defensive set should look like something 252 HP/68 SPE/[minor ATK investment because base 80 ATK sucks]/[rest into DEF] with a Bold nature. Now, the only problem with this is that you HAVE to run Leaf Storm or Grass Knot or Energy Ball, because the only way to ensure that both Power Whip and Sludge Bomb hit hard is to run a Relaxed nature (not a great idea since Rhyperior outspeeds you and beats you easily). The specially defensive 'saur could feasibly run Sassy though, with a more straightforward 252 HP/216 SDEF/40 ATK.

looks good the only concern i saw was the missing slash on the swords dance set. return needs a slash and it really isn't additional comments material, especially with the rise of specially defensive weezing to check it, return obviously deserves the slash. this doesn't mean eq is a lesser option by any means, it just means that return actually has some uses.

although not exactly magnificent, return's purpose is to damage flying-types on the switch. sr is obviously important to keep the pressure on them. out of all the pokemon you mentioned, venusaur outpaces two and has a chance of winning, its just moltres that becomes a huge concern but sleep powder patches up this issue somewhat.

+0 return vs. 0/0 moltres - 36.1% - 42.7%
+2 return vs. 252/40 altaria - 62.4% - 73.7% (take note altaria cannot do anything significant back).
+2 return vs. 252/4 bold weezing - 49.4% - 58.4% (take note that sleep power helps increase the chances of 2hko, rolling wow is quite low)

lastly, i think body slam is quite arbitrary as a slash and the 30% chance of paralysis is not really worth the slash over sleep powder.

edit:

forgot to mention, many people lol at me for using hp psychic but its actually quite sweet 2hkoing specially defensive weezing, while also hitting opposing venusaur and toxicroak for super effective damage. maybe a mention in ac in the special set? idk i'm a weird guy i use whatever it takes to bypass counters. up to you though.

On the specially defensive set you say 16 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Adamant Aggron, but it's Rhyperior the one that is actually beaten. I believe you accidentally assumed a neutral nature that would allow it to reach 200 Speed, but with Sassy it only hits 180. Also, I think Energy Ball is worth a mention on the physically defensive set due to being the most "reliable" option. Outside of that it looks very good.

looks solid but maybe mention roar on the defensive sets? it's a pretty decent defensive roarer from my experiences.

but besides that yeah looks good

Where's the Physical Life Orb set?

JabbaTheGriffin said:

looks solid but maybe mention roar on the defensive sets? it's a pretty decent defensive roarer from my experiences.

but besides that yeah looks good

Click to expand...

Please do so.

I ran max HP and max SpA, though a better spread would be 164 hp / 252 satk / 92 spe modest like you mentioned; Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb/Sleep Powder/Roar @ black sludge was its moveset

It's really good at roaring because it takes hits so well (and those registeels and spiritombs never knew what they had coming, lol) and screws up baton pass teams as a bonus :D

I think the mixsaur spread should look more like 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe with a hasty nature. Sure, it's supposed to break walls or whatever, but this spread lets it tie with every other +spd nature venusaur out there which is most of them. Unless something has changed over the weekend lol. Losing the chance to tie with most of the tier is just not worth the little extra power imo. Venusaur also recieves a chance to punish those modest moltres and adamant hitmonlees. Just my 2 cents...

In addition to thinking the physical set should be added, I disagree with the complete removal of Earthquake from the Mixed set. Since this Venusaur is not aimed at "lasting a while", but more at "breaking through walls", I think it would make sense to slash EQ next to Synthesis. Earthquake lets Venusaur act as an excellent lure for Registeel. It also nails Toxicroak who can be annoying.

physical is the second set. physical pure attacking is not nearly as good as the mix set for what it's supposed to do which is why it's only mentioned in the AC and not as a main slash (which would be accomplished by putting synthesis next to swords dance). i'll add earthquake as the second option next to synthesis for the mix set.

i don't really care about the spread of the mix set; it should be 120 satk 88 atk (without nature influences) minimum and the rest whatever. obviously tying with kabutops is nice but so is hitting spiritomb/clefable/uxie switchins/random shit for ~9% more. lets have a vote on it yeah!! obviously since "slightly slower with a +atk nature" and "faster with +spe nature" are similar in their effectiveness i'll be sure to give the other type of spread justice in the comments, but we have to pick one to be the main spread.

ok lol franky ill give hp psychic a sentence

ive seen roar used effectively on random venusaur in the past. atm i'm tempted just to either slash it on in the fourth slot (the slp / seed slot) of the defensive sets since both physically defensive and specially defensive use it fine. or maybe just a pretty big AC mention (a few sentences and not at the way end). any preferences/objections to either?

whistle said:

physical is the second set. physical pure attacking is not nearly as good as the mix set for what it's supposed to do which is why it's only mentioned in the AC and not as a main slash (which would be accomplished by putting synthesis next to swords dance). i'll add earthquake as the second option next to synthesis for the mix set.

Click to expand...

The physical and mixed sets are quite different. The full attack EVs and room for both Sleep Powder and Synthesis make it quite different from the mixed set (which is weaker, frailer, and can't use Earthquake + Synthesis effectively). The SD set simply does not have the longevity that the pure physical set has; as in you can't keep switching it into Milotic and the like. I think the SD set should be replaced by this set:


[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Power Whip
move 2: Earthquake / Return
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Swords Dance / Synthesis
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

-mention Synthesis + Life Orb as the combo for hard hitting / survivability and SD for sweeping etc

you could have just said "slash synthesis". i deliberately took it off since i feel a pure attacking set is not as effective now but it's getting mentioned in the comments anyways.

Looks good. I think SD should be the only physical set. Lets be real here without SD Venusaur just sucks (well he sucks anyway but you get my point). Synthesis LO attacker means you can switch in on Milotic more (bfd?), but you aren't gonna be breaking through anything with that craptastic attack stat.

im fine with slashing eq on the mixed set, though synthesis should be the primary option. Roar should definitely be slashed on the defensive sets though, venusaur forces a ton of switches and it helps spread around entry hazard damage. also i think a grass attack should be slashed with sleep powder on the subseed set, because ive used omastar to stall out a subseed venusaur, and that should never happen lol. sleep powder isnt as necessary on that set imo because subseed is annoying as is.

Agreeing with ToF that Energy Ball deserves a slash with Sludge Bomb. It's really personal preference as to which attack will suit one's needs best, and Energy Ball has merit in hitting Milotic, who can otherwise potentially outstall you lategame, as well as certain other stuff like the aforementioned Donphan.

QC Approved 2/2

Moving.

I don't know if I will have time to do this in the near future. if it does get done, it will probably be because I decide to write it all on a whim on a random Saturday night at 5 am. if that very odd circumstance doesn't happen then it likely will not get finished in a timely manner (within a week or two).

if you are good at writing and have extensive UU knowledge, maybe I'll give the analysis to you! even if I don't write it, I want this analysis to be of a very high quality :)

edit: bad ass is writing this

yeah im really sorry can we get someone else to do this...

im sorry

this is now vEOnusaur

I'll be glad to write it up if no-one else is willing to..

GP check 1/2:

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Sleep Powder
move 4: Synthesis
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is Venusaur's bread-and-butter set, and utilizes its fantastic Special Attack score tying such limelights as Groudon, Celebi and Giratina and ability to switch in on some of UU's most threatening Pokemon to the fullest extent. Many of UU's best sweepers, such as Choice Band Spiritomb locked into Sucker Punch, RestTalk Milotic, and SubSeed Sceptile lack the power necessary to break through Venusaur. Timid and maximum Speed is used to speed tie with the base 80s that plague the UU speed tier. Max Special Attack is used to hit things as hard as possible and nets a few important KOs such as an OHKO on -ve nature offensive Swampert after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes and Acid Rain damage. Sludge Bomb is used to hit most Pokemon in UU for neutral damage, while Leaf Storm is used to hit things that do not take very much damage from Sludge Bomb. Leaf Storm is also used to get in a stronger hit than Sludge Bomb because 140 base power > 90 base power with or without STAB. Synthesis is used to allow Venusaur to repeatedly switch in and threaten the opponent. Life Orb is used because of the need to use more "is used" in this paragraph. </p>

<p>Sleep Powder is the move that makes Venusaur as threatening as it is. Many of Venusaur's counters, such as Registeel, Moltres, and Toxicroak, all switch into most of Venusaur's moves rather comfortably, yet Sleep Powder will cripple them all. A Pokemon going to sleep in a battle results in an automatic knockout, as Ash found out in the anime. Sleep Powder can also afford Venusaur a free turn to hit the opponent with one of its high powered STAB moves or use Synthesis to be able to come in more often if the opponent isn't disqualified for playing on first. One of Venusaur's other characteristics that help it check so many threats is its defenses. Venusaur can take many weak STAB attacks, and even quite a few STAB-less attacks from stronger Pokemon such as Luvdisc's Surf and Magikarp's Tackle. Venusaur is even capable of taking such powerful hits as Kingdra's +6 Attack Adamant Splash without breaking sweat. Many Pokemon such as the aforementioned Milotic and Sceptile lack the power to break through Venusaur even when it hasn't invested in its defenses. These defenses set Venusaur apart from his faster, frailer Grass-type counterparts in Sceptile and Leafeon, who often succumb to Ice Beam from bulky Water-types.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>While Venusaur's special movepool may be enough for it to have good coverage, it does not extend much beyond the moves listed. One option that can be used is Hidden Power Psychic over Sleep Powder to hit Weezing, Heracross, and opposing Venusaur, but it is generally not as useful as Sleep Powder. Two alternate EV spreads can be employed: 164 HP / 252 SAtk / 92 Spe Modest or 108 HP / 252 SAtk / 148 Spe Modest. I have no idea what these spreads do, I'll have to ask Whistle later since he posted these spreads, but I am pretty sure he doesn't know either because he's a noob whose tournament victory [URL="http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue13/smog_awards"][URL="http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue13/smog_awards[/URL]"]is going to be 2010's biggest upset[/URL][/URL]. I am pretty sure they will probably just give you more general bulk, but it is possible that it allows Venusaur to outspeed something like Choice Scarf Deoxys-S and survive something else such as Ho-oh's Sacred Fire in the sun. Possibly. Whatever.</p>

Click to expand...

On a more serious note, someone want to write this up? :naughty: Or pass this analysis on to someone else? I can write this, if needed (but will take some time).

Sorry for being so slow with this, but I am actually still writing Venusaur. I edited my write-up for the first set in just to show I'm not completely flaking on this. I'm nearly done with Counters/second set as well.

SilentVerse will be taking this over