Gardevoir (RainCheck)

Hello Smogon! I've been running a Gardevoir on my UU team for a while now, and I think I've found a niche that only Gardevoir is suited to; stopping Rain Dance teams in their tracks. Every single time I've run into a Rain Dance team, I've either stopped it cold with Gardevoir, or been played by something weird like 252 speed Floatzel, so I thought it was worth a mention on the analysis at least. I'm prepared to make changes, but so far it's served me well.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gardevoir

[SET]
Name: Life Orb (Weather Check)
Move 1: Psychic
Move 2: Thunderbolt / Energy Ball
Move 3: Signal Beam / Focus Blast
Move 4: Will o Wisp / Taunt / Reflect
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Trace
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed

Why does this set deserve to be on site?

• No current Gardevoir sets address UU, Rain Dance, or Life Orb.
• Not outclassed by Golduck or Porygon2; Gardevoir can deal with more threats directly, at the cost of not being able to switch in as easily.
• Wide movepool allows for use outside of rain/sun, can abuse Trace with Energy Ball and Will o Wisp physical switch ins.
• Can beat any rain sweeper 1-on-1, outspeeding all thanks to Trace and EV spread. Only Ludicolo survives an attack.
• Also matches up well against sun teams thanks to Signal Beam and Psychic.

Additional Comments.

• Energy Ball > Grass Knot in all situations. Thunderbolt is more effective against standard, eg Milotic and Moltres.
• Can't switch in on water attacks; double switching against mixed sweepers can be helpful for getting Gardevoir in.
• If Dugtrio revenges a pokemon, Gardevoir can trap and kill it using Trace, always surviving an attack from LO Dugtrio.
• Stealth Rock can impede Gardevoir's progress by preventing a clean kill on Ludicolo, but is less common on rain teams.
• Can use lots of additional support moves, such as Encore, Mean Look, Wish, Reflect, Hypnosis and Thunder Wave in the fourth slot.
• Also has access to lots of coverage moves outside of weather, such as Shadow Ball and Focus Blast.
• You /can/ run an Expert Belt, but that makes Thunderbolt mandatory. Signal Beam still hits Ludicolo hard.

Teammates and Counters.

• Donphan and Cloyster make good teammates; they can rapid spin, wall physical attacks and provide their own entry hazards. Lead Cloyster can prevent Uxie from getting up Rocks.
• Priority users can clean up kills; Ambipom, Hariyama and Hitmontop all synergise well, as do Donphan and Cloyster, although Ice Shard might lose power against rain teams.
• Fire types can make the most of a lack of rain dance, such as Arcanine, Houndoom and Blaziken.
• Pursuit trappers can trap and kill Gardevoir, but are uncommon on rain teams, and signal beam / focus blast can be decent against them.
• Houndoom walls Gardevoir without Focus Blast, and can set up on the switch.

Well, I think that's enough about the set for now. Let me know if this can be made more efficient, I'm not entirely sure about what the best options are for the third and fourth moves, but those options have served me well. And don't be too harsh! At least Gardevoir has a niche here and isn't trying to be a trick-scarf anti lead! :P

I'm going to test this. I'll post in a couple days when I get a feel for it because lately offensive rain teams are bothering me.

lol at Destiny Bong in comments

Anyway, although I haven't tried this set, if it can't switch into an attack from any of the other team's rain sweepers, it's not much of a rain team stopper. How would Gardevoir get into the battle then, and how would it stop Ludicolo if Lud's Waterfall 2HKOs and it's faster?

Energy Ball was chosen primarily because it can be OHKO all UU rain sweepers (apart from Qwilfish, who dies to Psychic)

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Ludicolo curses you.

Also, imo, the last slot should be Protect/Taunt/Reflect. Protecting to kill Rain turns extremely annoying for Rain teams (unless you do it repetitively and they start SDing) Like you say, Gardy can OHKO a fuckton of sweepers, the prime targets for Wowing/Reflecting, and it can help scout Trick. Reflect>WoW because you're not wowing anything you can kill anyway. You're going to be reflecting on mostly bulky stuff like Uxie/Regi/etc, imo. Taunt is to (obviously) stop rain, set up, and stuff, and it's pretty good out of rain, too.

EDIT: Cosmic, Standard Colo does not outrun Gardy. Also, I'm pretty sure there are more specialcolo than sd colo.

cosmicexplorer said:

Anyway, although I haven't tried this set, if it can't switch into an attack from any of the other team's rain sweepers, it's not much of a rain team stopper. How would Gardevoir get into the battle then, and how would it stop Ludicolo if Lud's Waterfall 2HKOs and it's faster?

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I agree that Gardevoir can't really switch in, but Gardevoir outspeeds Rain abusers because it Traces their ability (Swift Swim).

I, personally, don't like Life Orb as the item. Kabutops can easiy pick you off after just a few turns of attacking.
Gardevoir OHKOes all Rain abusers bar Ludicolo anyway. Switch to Leftovers.

Also, Wish should get a mention on the last slot becase it's very useful outside rain, along with Signal Beam on the third slot for Ludicolo, bulky psychics and a shot on beating sun teams as a plus. Also puts Claydol on it's place.
Also, make Thunderbolt as your primary option. Energy Ball won't KO Gorebyss with Gardevoir carrying Lefties, and it hits most things harder (Psychic does enough damage to Lanturn).

To summarize:

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Energy Ball
- Focus Blast / Signal Beam
- Will-o-Wisp / Wish / Reflect


Make a mention of Taunt on AC.

My cents.

Thanks to everyone who's replied, I'll post my responses individually below.

lol at Destiny Bong in comments

Anyway, although I haven't tried this set, if it can't switch into an attack from any of the other team's rain sweepers, it's not much of a rain team stopper. How would Gardevoir get into the battle then?

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Eheh, I'll edit that out later. :P

Unfortunately, that's the problem with Gardevoir; you have to have one of your other pokémon die first. Then again, what can switch in on a rain boosted water attack, other than Quagsire and friends? Quagsire is far from the ideal counter anyways, being outsped by everything, and crushed completely by Ludicolo and savvy Gorebyss.

Also, imo, the last slot should be Protect/Taunt/Reflect. Protecting to kill Rain turns extremely annoying for Rain teams (unless you do it repetitively and they start SDing) Like you say, Gardy can OHKO a fuckton of sweepers, the prime targets for Wowing/Reflecting, and it can help scout Trick. Reflect>WoW because you're not wowing anything you can kill anyway. You're going to be reflecting on mostly bulky stuff like Uxie/Regi/etc, imo. Taunt is to (obviously) stop rain, set up, and stuff, and it's pretty good out of rain, too.

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I completely agree with this; for the most part, I was floundering over the last slot, and these all look like good suggestions. Also, screw trying to reflect on Kabutops, I'm removing that silly suggestion entirely, lol.

I, personally, don't like Life Orb as the item. Kabutops can easiy pick you off after just a few turns of attacking.
Gardevoir OHKOes all Rain abusers bar Ludicolo anyway. Switch to Leftovers.

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Nah, the EVs ensure that a standard Kabutops will /never/ deal more than 70% damage with Aqua Jet. So Gardevoir gets three attacks, which is most likely, three KO's. Plus it can stall out the rain with Protect, if need be, preventing Aqua Jet from OHKOing unless you've attacked 5 times.

Whilst I don't like Life Orb either, it's necessary to make Energy Ball viable, which is /much/ better than Thunderbolt for switching in on things. As I stated, you can switch in on Claydol, Lanturn and Quagsire with ease, and deal a load of damage to all of them with Energy Ball, whilst Thunderbolt would not work at all. Anything that Gardevoir had to use Thunderbolt on instead is going to be Moltres, and that's a bad match up regardless. Plus, Thunderbolt is super-easy to predict and switch a ground type in on, whilst Energy Ball actually punishes most ground types.

Also, Wish should get a mention on the last slot becase it's very useful outside rain, along with Signal Beam on the third slot for Ludicolo, bulky psychics and a shot on beating sun teams as a plus. Also puts Claydol on it's place.

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Wish could be useful, but it'd distract from Gardevoir's main purpose, and I'd probably find myself in a situation where I'd be thinking "Why the hell don't I have Protect?" If I write this up, I'll mention it in AC, though.

Signal Beam looks like a much better slash than Destiny Bond, though. Whilst the super effective damage against Ludicolo is moot over Psychic, it becomes more noticeable if someone runs Expert Belt and more SpA instead. That, and the ability to punish Uxie and sun teams is very nice. In particular, I've noticed that Gardevoir is always flat-out walled by Exeggutor, and a OHKO against him would be very nice. I'll run some calcs against Sunny Day sweepers, and who knows, Gardevoir meet even become the ultimate UU weather check! (screw you Castform)

Gardevoir hates switching into entry hazards when trying to combat rain teams; Stealth Rock prevents Gardevoir from finishing off Ludicolo, trying to get a Reflect on Kabutops, or surviving an encounter with Dugtrio

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This does it for me. These are two extremely common Rain Dance sweepers that you lose to if the opponent lays down Stealth Rock. It is almost a universal move for every team, and if you want to try and spin while theres a Rain Dance sweeper in front of you, just so you can sacrifice said spinner to bring Gardevior in for free (it is kind of sad your Rain Dance check can't actually switch into any Rain Dance sweepers!). Also, with max SpA Timid and Life Orb, you do 43.9% - 51.8% to Ludicolo 0/0, so it doesn't even matter if they don't use SR, you lose to Ludicolo (who is on every Rain Dance team do to its ability to take down Milotic and friends).

Also, just a note, don't make revisions in red, because thats the color used to proofread by many GP checkers (if this gets to that stage), and it makes it look like you are removing all of the stuff in red. If you would like to keep track of the revisions you have made, a "change log" in hide tags at the top or bottom of the OP is a good idea. In addition, the formatting is wrong. You should look at other analysis and skeletons to see the correct format.

firecape said:

This does it for me. These are two extremely common Rain Dance sweepers that you lose to if the opponent lays down Stealth Rock. It is almost a universal move for every team, and if you want to try and spin while theres a Rain Dance sweeper in front of you, just so you can sacrifice said spinner to bring Gardevior in for free (it is kind of sad your Rain Dance check can't actually switch into any Rain Dance sweepers!). Also, with max SpA Timid and Life Orb, you do 43.9% - 51.8% to Ludicolo 0/0, so it doesn't even matter if they don't use SR, you lose to Ludicolo (who is on every Rain Dance team do to its ability to take down Milotic and friends).

Also, just a note, don't make revisions in red, because thats the color used to proofread by many GP checkers (if this gets to that stage), and it makes it look like you are removing all of the stuff in red. If you would like to keep track of the revisions you have made, a "change log" in hide tags at the top or bottom of the OP is a good idea. In addition, the formatting is wrong. You should look at other analysis and skeletons to see the correct format.

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Firstly, Gardevoir does not lose to Kabutops. It just can't set up reflect, which I've already retracted from the analysis.

Secondly, I'm not sure what you're using to calculate those stats for Ludicolo, but I get 56.3% - 66.8% damage after a 200 Timid Psychic, against the standard special sweeper. What stats are you using for Gardevoir and Ludicolo? I'm using the Smogon standard special spread for Ludicolo and my custom spread for gardevoir.

Thirdly, it's a real shame that Gardevoir can't switch in on anything under Rain, but I suppose that's what makes it a check instead of a counter.

Fourthly, thank you for pointing out these errors in my formatting. I think I've fixed all of the issues, and I've left the original writing below in a spoiler.

As an aside, I suppose it's worth noting that Uxie is the only popular Rain Dance lead that can even set up Stealth Rock. Taunt leads will stop it cold, so it shouldn't be too hard to keep entry hazards off the field against a rain team. Cloyster can also rapid spin, and works well as a lead, so it could rapid spin as Uxie u-turns out of Rain Dance, I guess.

haha i remember this set in the RainGarde RMT. i thought it was pretty cool.

However, one thing you have to point out is wha tit has over golduck, who can counter other weather teams and works in a similar fashion.

NightShadow said:

haha i remember this set in the RainGarde RMT. i thought it was pretty cool.

However, one thing you have to point out is wha tit has over golduck, who can counter other weather teams and works in a similar fashion.

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Eheh, thanks. I might I do the RMT with the new set, if I can be bothered.

I'd suppose the primary advantage over Golduck is that it's not useless more effective outside of weather. It has a much stronger support movepool, including Golduck's Encore should you want it, better attacking options in Energy Ball, Psychic and Focus Blast, and can use it's ability to switch in with ease (especially against some rain setup pokemon, like claydol and lanturn).

The key advantage to using Golduck is his typing, letting him switch in on rain teams easily, although it can also be an achilles heel against sun teams. On the other hand, Golduck is much more susceptible to Ludicolo, Gorebyss and Floatzel than Gardevoir. Ludicolo can tank anything Golduck throws at him (even Signal Beam is guaranteed not to 2HKO without hazard support) and can OHKO him with Grass Knot/Energy Ball. Gorebyss can survive a HP Grass with over 25% to spare, and can deal up to 90% with its own HP Grass, making Golduck fodder later on. Floatzel can do the same, but can only deal about 60% with Return. Golduck can be damaged or even killed by a lot of rain sweepers, whilst Gardevoir takes out standard Gorebyss and Floatzel without taking a hit, and can actually pose a threat to Ludicolo. This makes Golduck somewhat questionable as a rain-counter.

It's really a trade off between whether you want to be able to switch something in on Kabutops, or if you're willing to lose a pokémon to get Gardevoir out and start sweeping. I'll edit this into the main post.

Yeah I'm not a fan of really centralizing this for combating only rain teams as it really can't switch into anything on rain so you have to sac a mon just to get it in and against non rain teams it's so overly centralized I don't see it doing much use.

I do however love LO Gardevoir and have used it myself. Broadening the set to make it useful against both rain and normal teams is definitely a possibility. For one, Wisp would have to be a definite. It allows you to not be as scared of mons like spiritomb that scare the shit out of Zam (i've actually run double psychic before because Gardevoir does a good job of weakening Zam's counters with wisp). I used Shadow Ball as a lead mon for taking down Uxie/Mesprit but I can see the merits of using Focus Blast outside the lead position. I'd say max out speed/special attack since that tiny bit of extra bulk really is not coming into use nearly as much as the extra speed/spa.

Those are just my thoughts on how to turn this from an okay answer to rain to an okay answer to rain and a generally good mon.

So you want me to run 252/252 timid, with shadow ball as a slash on move 3? That's fine, we can mention the bulk against Kabutops in OC, and being able to outspeed Adamant Hitmonlee and Modest Rotom could be nice. The extra power could also come in useful. So yeah, those changes sound good. I'll mention Wisp in optional changes, since Reflect is more useful on rain teams.

I really think this set should be tweaked into the set Jabba mentioned, which I myself faced and hated (which means I hated playing against it, not that I found it weak), thus being able to vouch for its effectiveness. Again I come to repeat myself on my point of view regarding Rain: it's not common or overpowered enough for it to warrant sets tweaked exclusively to beat it. I believe the main set should be 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe Timid nature with a moveset of Psychic/Thunderbolt (hits Milotic harder, as well as stuff like Moltres from which you can take a hit IIRC)/Focus Blast (Shadow Ball won't be useful vs ghosts as they'll always outspeed you, and with Focus Blast you can actually hit Registeel, Chansey and Steelix. Uxie can't do much to you anyways outside of statusing and U-turning, and that's something that can't be prevented as you don't OHKO it)/Will-O-Wisp; while you could mention things like Wish and Shadow Ball in the AC section. It still handles Rain extremely well, but also maintains its usefulness against the standart team.

Edit: IIRC = if I remember correctly

First of all, what does IIRC mean? I've seen it thrown around a lot but never knew what it meant.

Overall, I think Thunderbolt has a stronger case with this new set, since it has a chance of outspeeding and OHKOing Modest Moltres, whereas it could do neither before, and it can now 2HKO Milotic on average, which is very nice. I still think Energy Ball should be slashed, though, since it can be used more effectively with Trace, and it still gets all the KOs it needs to. I haven't used Focus Blast a lot whilst testing, but that's probably because of my team more than anything else, so I'll keep it slashed. I'll leave the last slot unchanged for now.

IIRC means what Bluewind said. "if i remember correctly".

Maybe you could slash Expert Belt on the set, so you can still check rain without losing 10% of your HP everytime you attack (and Signal Beam gets more useful to hit Ludicolo for more damage).
Seems good now, i'm okay with Wish on AC. I would just metion Protect on AC too beause it doesn't have much use outside Rain.

Just a quick check - if Gardevoir's purpose is to defeat Rain Dance teams, shouldn't Thunder be listed (over Thunderbolt)?

^No, because rain will not always be in play, especially if you aren't the one setting it up. Gardevoir has to have some use outside of rain.

Thunderbolt has plenty of power to KO, and Thunder would miss outside of rain. So it's not needed or wanted.

EDIT: Also, I just played a dedicated sunny day team, and Gardevoir almost destroyed it by herself. She killed a Tangrowth, Charizard (Thunderbolt! :D) and Arcanine before being forced to bow out by Extremespeed. So it works well against sun teams too, especially with Thunderbolt. :D

May I ask whether porygon 2 is another viability over this?

calze6 said:

May I ask whether porygon 2 is another viability over this?

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Perhaps. Unfortunately, it doesn't have as much speed or SpA as Gardevoir, meaning it won't outspeed the boosted sweepers and and might not get the KO even if it takes a hit. That said, it comes with more bulk, and can use Trick Room, but wouldn't Trick Room on a Traced Swift Swim be pointless?

The crucial aspect is outspeeding the sweepers, and with Porygon2 only having 240 speed, maximum, it'll be outsped by standard Kabutops, Qwilfish and Floatzel, who can all deal some damage with water attacks, or explosion in Qwilfish's case. This makes it less viable overall, although porygon2 can be justified by type synergy, or if you need the extra bulk outside of rain. Gardevoir also has a larger support movepool.

Just a small thought: If Gardevoir can take down Sunny day teams as well as Rain Teams, then maybe the title: "Offensive Weather Abuser" should suffice.

Also, I do not think Signal Beam is mandatory since Gardevoir can still 2HKO offensive variants, which are VERY common and can be dealt with without Signal Beam.

AccidentalGreed said:

Just a small thought: If Gardevoir can take down Sunny day teams as well as Rain Teams, then maybe the title: "Offensive Weather Abuser" should suffice.

Also, I do not think Signal Beam is mandatory since Gardevoir can still 2HKO offensive variants, which are VERY common and can be dealt with without Signal Beam.

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I agree, "Life Orb Weather Check" sounds good. Is there any way of changing the title? Also, Signal Beam is there mostly for utility against Psychics and sun teams. Uxie and Exeggutor love switching in, only to be 2HKO'd and OHKO'd respectively. It becomes more necessary against Ludicolo if you run an Expert Belt, though.

You're seriously still way too focused on trying to be a weather stopper.

I'll say this one more time: Weather is not common enough to warrant over-specialization. You're still tailoring the set way too much towards trying to accomplish that goal. Energy ball should not be an option. Signal Beam should be Additional comments as should Taunt and Reflect. Being useful against the entire metagame first, Rain second.

Also in the same vein: It should simply be "Life Orb Sweeper"

Agreed with Jabba. "LO Sweeper Gardevoir" As for my input I think that Psychic, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, and WoW should be primary the rest of the stuff added as other options. The moveset optimizes Gardevoir has over Alakazam in WoW and what she has over Mismagius in slightly more bulk and a fighting move without lowering speed.

It seems you're so keen on Signal Beam, yet Psychic hits for 135 BP on Ludicolo, while Signal Beam hits for 150, and that's 90% of the damage...