Crobat (Update)

Zystral

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/crobat

probat.

[Overview]
<p>Crobat is one of the fastest non-Uber Pokemon in existence, losing only to Electrode and Ninjask, and tying with Jolteon and Aerodactyl. On top of this, its other stats, while not amazing, are far from poor, enabling it to utilize a variety of tactics to beat your opponent. From using its high Attack stat and decent movepool to whittle down the opponent, abusing Nasty Plot and its moderate Special Attack and simply sweeping, or just using its support movepool and moderate bulk to cripple the foe's team, Crobat will always successfully fill its role on your team</p>

[SET]
name: Utility Bat
move 1: Taunt
move 2: Roost
move 3: Super Fang
move 4: Brave Bird / U-turn
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 232 HP / 56 Def / 76 SpD / 144 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>By far Crobat's most effective set. The combination of high Speed, Roost, and Taunt absolutely demolishes stall teams, as they find themselves not only unable to heal themselves while Crobat tears away at 50% of their health with Super Fang, but also unable to actually hurt Crobat due to its good bulk and Roost. Crobat can even serve as a decent check to offensive teams as well, since even Swords Dance Infernape's Close Combat or Fire Punch won't 2HKO, and neither will Heatran's Fire Blast OHKO, meaning Crobat can switch into physically based Infernape and stall out its Close Combat's PP with Roost, or just Brave Bird for the KO.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Crobat loves Toxic Spikes in play, since that helps it take down opposing defensive Pokemon such as Vaporeon, Suicune and Blissey with greater ease. Brave Bird is especially helpful for hastening the death of the aforementioned Pokemon, as standard Vaporeon takes roughly 30% and Blissey takes about 34%, meaning Crobat can take them down after 2 Super Fangs. An alternate EV spread of 168 HP / 88 Def / 252 Spe can be used as this gives Brave Bird more power in order to KO other threats to your team.</p>

[SET]
name: Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Heat Wave / Roost
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Crobat appears to have a poor Special Attack stat, but it is the fastest user of Nasty Plot in the game, and with a Nasty Plot boost behind it, its Special Attack actually becomes respectable to the point where Crobat is able to OHKO/2HKO a lot of common threats. Its special movepool is also varied enough to give it just the coverage it needs. Despite being weak to Stealth Rock, Life Orb is used to give Crobat all the power it can get, since its Special Attack is its weakest stat. With Hidden Power Fighting, Heat Wave, and Sludge Bomb, Crobat is capable of hitting nearly everything in OU for neutral damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Crobat is extremely frail, and thus should avoid sandstorm unless it is are attempting to kill Tyranitar with Hidden Power Fighting. Crobat can score OHKOs on most Pokemon, but against notable threats like Gyarados, Tyranitar, and Heatran, it will miss the OHKO by only a small amount. Thus, Spikes and Stealth Rock support is extremely helpful. Hidden Power Ground can be used to hit Heatran and Magnezone harder while still retaining decent damage on Tyranitar, but Tyranitar isn't OHKOed by +2 Hidden Power Ground, while Choice Scarf Magnezone is KOed by an unboosted Heat Wave most of the time and Heatran dies to a +2 Hidden Power Fighting after two layers of Spikes. Roost is definitely an option over Heat Wave, since Crobat is losing HP from Life Orb nearly every turn, so its longevity is limited.</p>


[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Cross Poison
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: U-turn
item: Choice Band
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Due to its high Speed and passable Attack, Crobat makes a viable user of Choice Band. Its typing allows it to switch in easily on a variety of threats, especially users of common attacks such as Earthquake and Close Combat, and retaliate with a strong move that usually hits for super effective damage. Crobat makes a particularly good lead since Inner Focus means it cannot be stopped by Fake Out, and many common leads such as Infernape and Azelf are KOed by Brave Bird and Pursuit, respectively.</p>

<p>When using Choice Band Crobat, it's pretty noticeable that its damage output doesn't compare with that of other Choice Band users (or even some Choice Scarf users). However, like the Utility set, Crobat should be focusing on wearing down the opponent's team before letting another Pokemon clean up - Crobat can't usually score OHKOs, but it can turn many 2-3HKOs into OHKOs for teammates. As a result, U-turn is one of Crobat's more usable options, since not only is Crobat is one of the fastest existing users of it, but you can also switch in something that can not only clean up a weakened team, but also take little damage from the Rock-, Ice-, and Electric-type moves aimed at Crobat.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Since Crobat supports the team through direct damage as opposed to Taunt or Toxic, it has more EVs focused into power as opposed to bulk. Because of this, finding a good switch-in to Crobat's checks is a good idea. Magnezone is a great choice since it traps and kills the Steel-types that wall Crobat, while the pair can each switch in on each other's weaknesses; Crobat is immune to Magnezone's Ground-type x4 weakness while Magnezone resists every single type Crobat is weak to (Psychic, Electric, Ice, and Rock).</p>

<p>Since Crobat lacks instant recovery when equipped with a Choice Band, it is absolutely vital that Stealth Rock is removed from play. Otherwise, without Wish support, Crobat is not coming in more than 4 times, thus severely cutting its usefulness. Super Fang or Taunt are good options over Cross Poison or Pursuit, as Cross Poison may benefit from STAB, but usually has poor coverage, while Pursuit lacks power. Taunt can be used to stop slower leads such as Swampert and Bronzong from setting up, letting you bring in a sweeper and start pounding down on the foe, whereas Super Fang is useful versus bulkier teams, cutting 50% of the opposing Pokemon's health. This not only makes it easier to KO them, but also allows you to switch in a sweeper or a threat for free while they heal the damage off.</p>

[TEAM OPTIONS]
<p>Crobat is one of those Pokemon that takes entry hazards as both a necessity and a deterrent. Stealth Rock will slash Crobat's longevity, and considering how frail it is without investment in the first place, that is not a good thing. On the other hand, if using the Choice Band/Nasty Plot set, Spikes support will be a godsend for scoring those OHKOs Crobat misses narrowly. If using the Utility Bat, Toxic Spikes will take down Pokemon such as Blissey and Swampert even faster, making it easier for your sweepers to plough through the opposing team.</p>

<p>Magnezone and Heatran are some of Crobat's best partners since they resist most of the types Crobat is weak to, while Crobat is immune to their 4x Ground-type weaknesses. They also have the ability to take out many of Crobat's common counters, such as Steel-types, Suicune, and Swampert. In return, Crobat can take down or weaken the many walls that would otherwise stop Magnezone and Heatran cold. However, Blissey will stop both Crobat and Heatran if Crobat is running Nasty Plot (and Heatran lacks Explosion), whereas Skarmory can stop Crobat if it uses any other set (although Magnezone and Heatran can KO it easily).</p>

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]
<p>Crobat has a large variety of EV spreads it can run, due to the different roles it can fufill. You can reduce the Speed number to 144 EVs, as this comes to 356 Speed, just enough to outpace +1 Tyranitar. Crobat has no business trying to speed tie with Aerodactyl or Jolteon, so it can use 104 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def / 136 Spe to give more bulk while still powering Brave Bird to its full extent. X-Scissor can be a stronger alternative against Celebi and other Psychic-types, but Cross Poison is often more useful (and gets STAB). Crobat can use Giga Drain on the Nasty Plot set, since it will always OHKO Swampert after a Nasty Plot while regaining some much-needed health. Confuse Ray, Whirlwind, Rain Dance, and Screech are all usable support options, but there is almost always there is a better user out there, and Crobat has more effective tools for supporting the team. Hypnosis is an extremely useful tool for putting the opponent's Pokemon to sleep, although it is illegal with Brave Bird, and Brave Bird is by far the more useful option. Additionally, the low accuracy doesn't help the fact that Crobat cannot afford a miss against a large threat, even with defensive investment.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Zapdos and Rotom-A wall Crobat to high heaven, and most Rock-, Steel-, and Ground-types do too, but are hit hard by the Nasty Plot set. Jolteon and Aerodactyl can effectively revenge kill Crobat, since it rarely runs maximum Speed. Anything switching in has to be wary of Super Fang, Taunt, or Hypnosis, but generally Pokemon like Snorlax and Blissey can take on the special sweeper while Swampert, Skarmory, and Heatran do well against the physical attacker.</p>

<p>The hardest thing about countering Crobat is that you don't know what set it is running until about a turn or two after it is sent out. By then there's a chance that it's already KOed your counter, so it's important to play cautiously when it first comes out. However, once you determine its set, it's easy to take down. Generally, you should take advantage of the fact that it cannot hit very hard outside of Nasty Plot, and the fact that Crobat is actually quite frail provided you hit it with a move that it doesn't resist.</p>
 
You need way more descriptions Zy, so we know what you plan to include on this thing.

Anyways, I realize we just decided to take down CB Crobat, but after testing it extensively recently, I wanted to re-submit it for QC review. I have been using it in the lead spot, and it has been amazing. Destroys Machamp and Gallade, U-turn to break sash, Super Fang to hit anything switching in for big damage, and Taunt so leads like Roserade and Gliscor can't do anything. CB Brave Bird is fucking amazing in general right now, even with the SR weakness, and the 4x resist on Grass- and Fighting-type attacks when Shaymin and Breloom are everywhere is very welcome. Just throwing that out there.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I believe I rejected NP Crobat in my appraisal of it, as it just doesn't provide enough power, has huge Rotom-A and Heatran issues, and has the classic "not ss immune + sr weak + life orb + needs a turn of setup" thing that limits its sweeping, so my vote is against that particular set.

I'm leaning against CB, but I might as well give it a try? The SR weakness really looks like it hurts it, especially when it relies on a recoil move, but with Philip vouching for it I might rethink it.
 

Zystral

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I use NP Bat almost exclusively (along with MS Dos), so I can attest for it's effectiveness, as many calcs will show, you don't really need NP most of the time (52.6% - 62% vs TTar, 81.9% - 96.8% vs Magnezone with heat Wave), but hey, I'm not QC I can't say anthing. I'll leave it up there in case Setsuna has other opinions, since he's the one who tested it?

also, I'll throw CB into the anlysis, but renaming it "Anti-Lead" maybe? since that's what Phil said it should do and what it does best, and if QC unapproves it I'll remove it after along with NP.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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It is NOT an Anti-lead, you know better than that :<

If it's a CB set, call it a CB set. We don't call Specs Heatran an Anti-lead, even though that's where I see Specs Heatran most often.
 
CB Crobat isn't an anti-lead, it just works well in the lead position. Brave Bird destroys all the Machamp and Gallade leads that we have seen recently, U-turn hits Azelf really fucking hard and breaks sash, Inner Focus means you're beating Infernape, Taunt owns Roserade and Gliscor leads, and Super Fang for general awesomness. However, its job at the end of the day isn't to stop leads, it's just pesky for most leads, and can come in for come CB Brave Bird action later (which does a surprising amount of damage O_O).
 

Zystral

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yeah okay, i've taken that into consideration.
added some more skeleton stuff in, awaiting QC
 
I don't really like the main set being called stallbreaker. Yes, it can break stall but it has other niches as well. Brave Bird should be the primary attack, since Crobat's best niche is checking Breloom, Roserade, Shaymin, Infernape, etc. It even checks Gengar if you can get in on a Focus Blast. Crobat is actually very useful these days. Breaking stall is just a plus, and he can do that without Super Fang since as you mentioned, Roost + Taunt do the stallbreaking itself. In many situations, other moves are more useful than Super Fang (Brave Bird AND U-turn together, Substitute with Toxic Spikes, Substitute + Whirlwind with spikes, etc.).

As for EV spreads:

252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe is pretty meh. Anything specific this is helping to survive?

168 HP / 88 Def / 252 Spe was the AC spread before, because it is more efficient than that, always surviving a +2 Extremespeed from Luke after SR and Leftovers.

252 Atk / 252 Spe is also a good spread as well, you OHKO Gengar with Stealth Rock a good portion of the time, and with Sharp Beak you have a good chance to OHKO him at full health all of the time IIRC.

104 HP / 152 Atk / 252 Spe was standard for a reason, 337 HP is good for leftovers and gives some alright bulk, and gives Brave Bird some punch. With that, you OHKO Machamp with SR most of the time.
 

Colonel M

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I'd call it "UtiliBat" but then again I'm guessing we frown against gimmicky names. Alternatively you could just call it "Standard".
 
168 HP/196 Atk/144 Speed is probably the best spread for Standard Crobat. I dont see any point in maxing speed. 168 Evs give it 353 HP which is a leftovers number plus an odd number for SR. And 144 Evs give it 365 Speed to outspeed Starmie, Azelf, and ScarTar to possibly finish it off with U-Turn.
 

Conflict

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As I said in SDS QC i found this spread very good:

Hey.

I used the "Stallbreaker"-Set of Crobat in the past and i think i have an better EV-Spread for this lil bat.

The Spread for Crobat using Sharp Beak:
Crobat@Shark Beak
EV's: 168 HP/112 Atk/78 Def/152 Spd
Nature: Jolly
- Brave Bird
- Taunt
- Roost
- Superfang

112 Atk-EV's + Sharp Beak ensure the OHKO on (Lead-)Machamp (without SR). So it has uses besides stopping stall teams. If you dont Machamp that much you can run less Atk, and the Items Lum Berry (good for an initial switch-in against Blissey) or Leftovers. Then the remaining EV's can be put somewhere.....
152 Speed with a Jolly Nature give Crobat enough Speed to outspeed Adamant Bulky Gyara after one DD and Scarftar.
With 168 HP-EV's Blissey cant 2hko Crobat with Ice Beam.
The remaining 78 EV's are put in the Defense to withstand better physical hits so Crobat can for example work as an "light check" against Lucario.

Thats what i used on a fairly offensive team....
And please mention Sharp Beak as an good item on the "Stallbreaker"-Set or even slash it in.
 
Sharp Beak isn't very good though. Who leaves Machamp in on Crobat? I kind of agree with running only enough speed to outrun ScarfTar. though. You only lose the speed tie with base 130s that you shouldn't stay in on and Max Speed ScarfGross and other random scarfers.
 
168 HP/196 Atk/144 Speed is probably the best spread for Standard Crobat. I dont see any point in maxing speed. 168 Evs give it 353 HP which is a leftovers number plus an odd number for SR. And 144 Evs give it 365 Speed to outspeed Starmie, Azelf, and ScarTar to possibly finish it off with U-Turn.
I see no piont in NOT maxing speed on Crobat. You want to outspeed Sceptile for one.. and for two, max speed outruns Adamant DD Gyarados at +1, who you can knock a chuck of his health off with Brave Bird (LO Brave Bird actually OHKOs with SR, I vouch for LO at least getting a mention). Tying with Jolteon and Aerodactyl is good too, since Brave Bird can do enough with resist to finish them off (Jolteon is frail as Gengar remember).

Who leaves Machamp in on Crobat?
A lot of people surprisingly.
 

Conflict

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Sharp Beak isn't very good though. Who leaves Machamp in on Crobat? I kind of agree with running only enough speed to outrun ScarfTar. though. You only lose the speed tie with base 130s that you shouldn't stay in on and Max Speed ScarfGross and other random scarfers.
You know that Sharp Beak gives an immense power-up for BraveBird?

I found it quite quite useful back when i tested Crobat (1 month ago or so) and i cant understand why you regret it without any properly reasoning.

With Sharp Beak Crobat gains many Ohkos (with SR) and doesnt get the nasty recoil from LO.

It at least deserves a mention.
 
I had no idea that Sharp Beak powers up Brave Bird! My proper reasoning comes from having used it extensively a couple of months ago. Brave Bird isn't even the main move on the set. That goes to Taunt or Toxic, obviously. When StallBreaking, recovering SS damage, and just getting free recovery in general outweighs doing a little more damage with the least used move on the set. And if you think about it, the things you Brave Bird will either be KOd without the Sharp Beak, or can't KO in return.
 
I support using 144 speed EVs in the main spread for crobat, or at least for the CB set. 108 EVs invested in really a big difference, and it's not worth it just to outpace +1 adamant gyara. Max speed / speed for sceptile can be mentioned in other options if your team needs it badly.

Tying with Jolteon and Aerodactyl is good too
what the hell lol

edit: yeah i remember the team you were using rem, you were massively weak to gyara lol. in those cases i'd definitely use max speed too
 

remlabmez

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QC wanted to take it down (CB bat) but I think I was the only person against that. I have been using it a lot since mence got banned and with starmie for spin support, cb crobat is the truth. its probably the MVP of the team ive been using it with. I like the max speed to outpace gyara after a DD and I do care about speed tie but 144 speed evs can work i suppose
 

AccidentalGreed

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Like Aerodactyl and Jolteon, Crobat REALLY likes Max Speed because DD Dragonite, DD Gyarados, and Weavile are pretty mean when it comes to Speed. Speed tying with Jolteon and to a lesser extent Aerodactyl is also a plus, assuming they aren't using spreads to outrun Scarftar (144 Speed to outrun). An alternate EV spread to outspeed Scarftar can be mentioned in the AC. Staraptor really loves that Speed.
 
I don't understand lol why would you want to tie with Jolteon and Aero? And I'm pretty sure Weavile has Ice Shard
 
ok for jolteon is frail as fuck and if its on low health, why wouldn't you want to tie with it? as for something like lo aero, its also frail as fuck and with lo + brave bird its taking a big ass chunk of health. outspeeding dders is obv huge and weaviles ice shard doesnt ko after rocks iirc
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I don't understand lol why would you want to tie with Jolteon and Aero? And I'm pretty sure Weavile has Ice Shard
Jolt and Aero are frail, and unboosted Ice Shard does pretty ass damage. If you're slower, it lets Weavile Ice Punch you instead, and that one's no bueno to take.

Besides, you also outspeed Scarf Breloom and Adamant +1 Base 80/81s. That's a fairly big deal.
 
I know that Jolt and Aero are frail, BB will wreck them big time, but Crobat shouldn't be sent in against them unless you absolutely need to gamble for the tie to avoid extreme damage to your team or a loss. I have played with CB Crobat a lot, and I don't think Crobat should be doing stuff like that. Most of the time, Crobat is U-turning to scout or finish something off, or just using Brave Bird to hit the switch more often than not for a shit load of damage after Crobat comes in on a resisted attack from the likes of Shaymin and Breloom. I guess it's hard to explain but Crobat really shouldn't be making gambles like that in my opinion. For Gyara, Crobat can't really switch in on Gyara unless you're sure it will Earthquake or use DD, otherwise something needs to die on your team before Crobat is sent in. Usually it's not possible to tell if Gyarados is jolly or adamant anyways, and it's impossible to tell if it hasn't attacked yet. So I don't think Crobat shouldn't be used to beat gyarados; that should be left to something else. For Weavile, a LO Ice Shard does 63.7% - 75.2%, that's not really ass damage lol, so Crobat shouldn't be coming in against Weavile. For Adamant base 80s/81s: I already talked about Gyara, Dragonite is pretty much the same here, Crobat can't get in until something dies or it uses eq. When it does get in though, Dragonite's +1 Extremespeed does 56.9% - 67.2% and Brave Bird does 73.5% - 87% (assuming 4 hp/0 def), so it's sort of a toss up here, but Crobat still gets hurt a lot. I'm not sure of Dragonite's standard spread so sorry about that, however if it's less powerful than that, it'll be bulkier so BB would do as much. Mamoswine has Ice Shard so yeah, idk what togekiss does, and Crobat can't do much to scarftran. For Scarf Breloom, it's not really that big of a deal imo because outside of the lead spot, Breloom will put something to sleep, and Crobat 4x resists both its stabs already so I think it counters it pretty well. Even as a lead though, I haven't seen one for like 100+ games or something like that, a long time basically, and there's a good chance they'll switch anyway. If they stay in then they probably aren't a good battler anyways. Basically, Crobat functions best when it doesn't take any risks. It comes in after something dies or on a resisted attack and it fires off a Brave Bird or scouts with U-turn. Besides, the 108 EVs used for bulk are very helpful for when Crobat is switched in and takes sr damage. This is just what I have learned from experience :toast:
 
Tieing with Jolteon and Aerodactyl is pointless. I for one am not going to risk being OHKOed by lead Aerodactyl just so I can break it's Sash. Crobat should run 374 Speed for Sceptile. Weavile will just Ice Shard Crobat so I don't see why you would EV to outspeed that. Scarf Breloom is uncommon and does "lol" damage to you with its STAB. Any smart lead Breloom user would switch out. Staying in with Crobat to do like 33% to Gyarados is a bad idea because then it could get a second DD and kill Rotom-a. You should go directly to your counter. Furthermore, 56 def EVs let's you survive Agility Luke's Ice Punch after Stealth Rock, a little more and its +2 ExtremeSpeed. I am usre there are many other thins you can do with the EVs. So basically, utility bat does not need max speed. I do see why you would have it on CB bat where you can really hurt Gyara and Jolt.
 
Ummm...I support the Sharp Beak set to some extent. I'm not for the item and not-max speed, but I personally prefer the 112 Atk EVs. Not KOing Machamp only to eat an Ice Punch to the face really sucks. Also, could mention Rain Dance in Other Options.
Please don't ban me.
 
I do see why you would have it on CB bat where you can really hurt Gyara and Jolt.
I was reading your post and I was like "thank you, someone understands", but then you say this lol. All of your reasons for not using max speed on the other crobat set is applicable for cb crobat. Brave Bird doesn't do that much to Gyara after intimidate either even with cb
 

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