Metagame 2v2 Doubles

#76
You don't seem to get it, so I'll put it more clearly: You don't keep something broken in a metagame because there's a chance you can "predict" when the opponent will use it.

The "every mon can use zcrystal argument" is an argument against banning only certain Z-crystals or pokes utilizing Z. And you're saying Z is fine because pokes can use sash and scarf? Are you saying sash and scarf are broken? If you are, that's a different subject, and you don't keep something broken because there are other broken options.

Nothing stops you from having a Z move and priority and/or spread moves on the same poke. Again making a comparison to choice items when I addressed that in my post. And comparing to scarf and other items, I never said that all pokes are better off using Z in all situations. My post was outlining and analysing Z moves, and what Z moves do to the meta. And, if you've read my post, I'm saying that Z moves are inherently broken and unacceptable in a 2v2 meta. And regarding cost, I'm saying that the cost, which is that Z is only usable once per battle, is extremely lower in 2v2 than in 6v6. "you can't use 2 zmoves, unlike every other item" - that's precisely the point...

I really a Z move ban doesn't get stalled because of arguments coming from people who clearly haven't even read or understood my post.
Please name 3 pokemon besides bulu, kube, and talonflame that use z moves on a regular basis. Please point out specific threats that actually warp or overcentralize the metagame in some way.
 
#77
Please name 3 pokemon besides bulu, kube, and talonflame that use z moves on a regular basis. Please point out specific threats that actually warp or overcentralize the metagame in some way.
Most sturdy users run Z moves like sawk and donphan but they are not really broken.
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#78
Z moves

After playing 2v2 Doubles for the entirety of gen 7, analysing Z moves, I’ve come to the conclusion that they need to be banned ASAP. I will address frequently asked questions / frequently made arguments against a Z ban for 1v1. I know they’re different metagames, but the questions / arguments could still be applied, and I’m addressing them pre-emptively for 2v2 Doubles.

The main reason: Z was balanced by its creator Game Freak by being limited to being used once per battle, with a battle being 6v6. Which means that Z is usable on 1/6 of your team and usable once per battle. In 2v2 Doubles it’s usable on ½ of your team, which corresponds to z being usable on 3/6 of your team in a 6v6 battle and usable 3 times per battle. That’s 3 times the impact on the battle. Getting hit by a Z attack in 2v2 Doubles is the same as getting hit by a Z attack 3 times in 6v6. This enough is reason for a ban, however simple you might think the reason is.
Everything said here forth is additional analysis and justification for anyone who ignores that it’s banworthy on that sole merit.

A Z-move KO in 6v6 is not much of a big deal, you lost 1 poke, that’s 1/6ths out of your team. In 2v2 you lost half your team, turning it into a 1v1, which could quite possibly be the worse match-up for you, decided by the z-move user, simply due to its sheer power. Now of course OHKO’s can happen without Z-moves, but when they happen it’s because of a really strong move (covered below), type advantages, and difference in stats. And in the case where the Z-attack didn’t KO, it still does significantly more damage than it ever would have done otherwise, which is devastating (aka most likely game ruining) for the surviving poke.

Where such power was once due to a selection of pokes with big offensive stats, pokes with access to devastating moves, and pokes with type advantages, it is now available to pretty much any poke without utterly horrible offensive stats (which is the majority of viable pokes, if not the majority of all pokes). Where such pokes were once utilized for their other traits, traits for strats such as setup, support, walling, or whatever else, they can now have a strong attack (as in strength comparable to pokes that specialized in attacking) in addition to their role/use. That alone makes for unfair gameplay as such pokes now in addition to their specialization also get to nuke. This scales down the entire system of pokemon archetypes. An due to the sheer power of Z attacks, even the system of type effectiveness is scaled down to almost nothing. Who needs type effectiveness when you can just use Z to nuke everything not immune? Again keep in mind that even if the same applies to 6v6, the impact is tripled here. Now if Z-moves can provide such power to pokes that didn’t specialize in attacking, what do they provide to pokes that do? They make them unmanageable to deal with through any means other than outspeeding them and KO’ing them before they do the same to you.

“But Rumplestiltskin, why not just ban the pokes that you say become unmanageable due to Z-moves?”

Because it would mean losing a majority (if not all) of all offensive pokes at the very least, and the meta would still be unbalanced due to the massive power boost to everything (the unfair gameplay mentioned above).

In a meta where surviving is a massive struggle due to focus fire, and where power dominates, the addition of Z-moves, taking said power to a whole other level unbalances the meta too much and takes it even more in the direction of outspeed-and-KO ASAP type of battles. It utterly dumbs down the meta when not even type effectiveness or poke archetypes matter much any more.

“Rumplestiltskin, what makes Z attacks any different from other high BP attacks?”

Other strong moves are limited by their distribution, negative side effects, accuracy, and conditions. Which also means that you can play accordingly. And the distribution limit is significant because it incorporates all of the limits that the poke the move is limited to has, and if a poke with access to such a strong move doesn’t have enough limits, you usually see it banned in Smogon tiers/metas.

Let’s go over distribution first (excluding banned pokes, smeargle, NFE’s unless relevant, and moves with not so limited distribution (those will be covered in the other list)), and I hope I don’t have to go over the weaknesses and limits of each poke to get this point across.

  • V-Create
    • Victini, Rayquaza (banned)
  • Prismatic Laser
    • Necrozma
  • Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant
    • starter pokes, Arceus (no Frenzy Plant, banned)
  • Eruption
    • Typhlosion, Entei, Camerupt, Torkoal, Heatran, Groudon (banned)
  • Water Spout
    • Wailord, Jellicent, Blastoise, Octillery, Kyogre (banned)
  • Rock Wrecker
    • Rhyperior, Crustle
  • Head Smash
    • Aegislash, Aggron, Archeops, Basculin, Corsola, Cranidos, Donphan, Emboar, Hydreigon, Nidoking, Nihilego, Rampardos, Relicanth, Scrafty, Sudowoodo, Turtonator, Tyrantrum
  • Roar of Time
    • Darkrai, Arceus (banned), Dialga (banned)
  • Shell Trap
    • Turtonator
  • Doom Desire
    • Jirachi (banned)
  • Psycho Boost
    • Deoxys and its formes, Lugia (banned)
  • Freeze Shock
    • Kyurem Black
  • Ice Burn
    • Kyurem White
  • Boomburst
    • Chatot, Exploud, Flygon, Noivern, Pikipek, Swellow, Toucannon
  • High Jump Kick
    • Blaziken, Hawlucha, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Lopunny, Lucario, Medicham, Mienshao, Pheromosa, Scrafty, Tsareena
  • Explosion / Selfdestruct, 250 / 200 BP
    • The user faints.
  • V-Create, 180 BP
    • 95% accuracy, Lowers the user's Defense, Sp. Def, Speed by 1.
  • Prismatic Laser, 160 BP
    • User cannot move next turn.
  • Hyper Beam / Giga Impact / Rock Wrecker / Blast Burn / Hydro Cannon / Frenzy Plant / Roaor of Time, 150 BP
    • 90% accuracy, user cannot move next turn.
  • Focus Punch, 150 BP
    • Fails if the user takes damage before it hits.
  • Eruption / Water Spout, 150 BP
    • Less power as user's HP decreases.
  • Head Smash, 150 BP
    • 80% accuracy, has 1/2 recoil.
  • Shell Trap, 150 BP
    • User must take physical damage before moving.
  • Sky Attack, 140 BP
    • 90% accuracy, charges, then hits turn 2.
  • Doom Desire, 140 BP
    • Hits two turns after being used.
  • Psycho Boost, 140 BP
    • 90% accuracy, lowers the user's Sp. Atk by 2.
  • Last Resort, 140 BP
    • Fails unless each known move has been used.
  • Psycho Boost, 140 BP
    • 90% accuracy, charges, then hits turn 2.
  • Skull Bash, 130 BP
    • Charges, then hits turn 2.
  • High Jump Kick, 130 BP
    • 90% accuracy, user is hurt by 50% of its max HP if it misses.
  • Draco Meteor / Leaf Storm / Overheat / Fleur Cannon, 130 BP
    • Lowers the user's Sp. Atk by 2.

As you can see all the moves listed (bar Boomburst) have accuracy deficiencies / negative side effects / conditions, with most of them also having limited to extremely limited distribution. This applies to all attacks down to 110 BP in one or multiple ways. I don’t know why I felt I had to make this list, it’s just ridiculous that someone actually thought Z attacks and regular high BP attacks are the same.

“But Rumplestiltskin, what about choice band and choice specs, don’t they boost moves base power to Z levels and even slightly above? How can you want Z banned, but not choice items?”

Except that there is a drawback to using choice, which is that you're choice locked, which can very much be exploited/punished in 2v2 Doubles. And choice can be used on all 6 pokemon in 6v6, unlike Z. Z's drawback, which is that you can only use it once per battle is extremely diminished in 2v2 Doubles, that's a clear difference. Being choice locked, if you think about it thoroughly, means that any poke that didn’t use choice band/specs is uniquely able to profit from Z due to the nature of sets that prefer not to use or don’t work with band/specs. Pokes such as the ones mentioned above, i.e. pokes that didn’t specialize in attacking, or pokes that setup. Even pokes that would previously use choice items, can now opt for setup + Z.

“But Rumplestiltskin, what about megas, they’re also only usable on 1/6 of your team?”

The difference is that this isn’t Mix and Mega, where you could slap on a mega stone on any poke. Megas are viewed as individual pokes, and if a certain mega poke proves to be broken, it can get banned. Megas should be subject to more scrutiny here though as there's way less opportunity cost here than in a 6v6.

“But Rumplestiltskin, Smogon’s guidelines is to only ban the absolute necessary. What if not all Z-crystals are banworthy? Are you saying that Buginium-Z for instance is broken? LOL”

If one Z-crystal is broken then they all are, this isn't monotype where you ban things based on type. If a Z-crystal is broken, it isn't because of its type, but because of the other reasons mentioned. Just because some of the most used pokes resist the Bug type doesn't mean that Buginium-Z does what it does any differently than the other Z crystals. It just means that it will do less damage against the pokes that resist the Bug type, which shouldn't hold any relevance to balancing unless you're saying “screw the pokes that don't resist Bug”. You could also mean that no currently strong popular poke has X-type to use X-type Z-crystal with, which again shouldn't hold relevance because I'm arguing that Z is broken for what it is and does nonetheless, regardless of how popular a certain type Z-crystal is.

“But Rumplestiltskin, just use Substitute or Protect.”

That’s overcentralizing. Protect is one of the best moves to have in Doubles, but being forced to bring Substitute or Protect just for Z, even in cases where you otherwise wouldn’t have is not an indicator of a healthy metagame. And unless you’re a psychic in real life, you don’t know the exact turn your opponent will use their Z-attack, meaning Substitute and Protect are not very reliable answers.

And speaking of Protect, due to Z-attacks’ ability to bypass Protect, that damage, even while cut to 25%, is still in some cases enough to do a number (talking 75% HP in some cases) on pokes at a type and/or stat disadvantage, while also doing a decent chunk when hitting neutrally.


Protect provides some interesting gameplay to the meta and allows for some cool outplays. Z-attacks bypassing Protect reduces Protects usefulness in the meta, which allows more of just blindly and mindlessly attacking, with (unless mega stones) items such as Z-crystals and choice items.

“But Rumplestiltskin, Z moves make more pokes viable, how can you not want that? There’s no way that something that makes more pokes viable should be banned.”

First of all, while some pokes become more viable, others take a hit. Second of all, become viable at what cost? You don’t allow something broken just because it makes more pokes viable. In fact, I’d wager it’s a given that broken moves would make more pokes viable. If Perish Song was allowed on more pokes, we would get more viable pokes then too. And when it got banned in 1v1 for example Lapras and Murkrow fell real hard in viability. Just because something makes more pokes viable doesn’t mean it’s not broken, and you don’t keep broken stuff in a metagame just because they make more pokes viable.

Let's ban this swiftly, and use this month to resolve other issues such as stat boosting terrain inducing abilities and weather inducing abilities, the latter of which was overcentralizing last gen in 2v2 Doubles.
Just a simple request before I address your actual arguments... could you not make your whole argument based on strawman arguments? (To clarify, telling us what the opposing viewpoint is in such a way to "burn" it down.) This is widely considered a logical fallacy. A lot of the 'counterarguments' you presented are just plain silly and makes it look like you're trying to discredit those who argue against you rather than address actual flaws in your logic that others may point out.

Now on to actual arguments...

Your comparison of 2v2 to 6v6 (saying it's the same as having z moves on 3/6 mons is silly (sorry to overuse the word). 2v2 is not 1/3 of doubles ou and it definitely isnt 1/6 of ou. At the teambuilding level you have only two mon cores to consider (two mons on the field at a time I mean). If you have a Z move on more than one mon it is likely that there will come a time when you will have two z users on the field unless you have one of those teams with two completely seperate cores (basically weather or terrain cores). This is obviously not ideal for the z user. In 2v2 there is no switching, there are no hazards (well you can if you want), it's doubles unlike ou, sweeping is very different. Some of these things make z moves better yah (I wouldn't dignify this with a response besides lol in an ou-esque thread) but the fact remains that this is a different environment and if you want z moves banned you really need to bring up some specific threats imo. Not just some actually, but a lot, and show why it's z moves that breaks them.

A second point is that Z moves are not OHKO moves. You seem to be treating them like they are. Using a Z move does not guarantee you killing the targeted mon, and doing 75% through protect is an exception, nor the rule. I've found it more common to do less than 50, but it depends so much on the mons that any estimation is basically meaningless. This point is important. You seem to think whoever gets off a z move takes down a mon regardless of typing or attack stats, which is just silly.

You're starting from the assumption that z moves are broken. Remember the burden of proof rests on those trying to change the status quo according to ou policy. Prove to us it's broken rather than stating it's broken and then trying to get use to prove you wrong.

Tl;dr don't strawman, 2v2=/=a fraction of other metas, z moves don't OHKO, provide actual meta relevant evidence.

Sry for spelling errors phone is weird
 
#79
Please name 3 pokemon besides bulu, kube, and talonflame that use z moves on a regular basis. Please point out specific threats that actually warp or overcentralize the metagame in some way.
Marshadow, Tapu Koko, Alola Raichu, Mimikyu, Aegislash, Non-Mega Rain Abusers (namely Kingdra & Ludicolo).
A less common threats would be Landorus-T (w/ Flyium-Z).

Besides Alola Raichu, every threat mentioned above can use a Z-Move, but are also perfectly viable without it, thus adding a new level of unpredictability, which may or may not be "healthy" to the metagame.
Alola Raichu will most likely use Stored Sparksurfer at some point in the match, but it's not guaranteed that it will be turn 1, as it can use Fake Out to break a common Sash user. A number of scenarios may occur:

1. Sash user uses Protect, predicting Raichu's Fake Out attempt to break it.
2. Sash user uses Protect, but Raichu predicts it and uses Stored Sparksurfer, breaking the Sash and paralyzing the user (assuming non-Electric or Ground, obviously).
3. Sash user takes the Fake Out hit, and flinches.
4. Sash user takes the Stored Sparksurfer, and may or may not get full para'd. Not only that, it may or may not be faster than Tapu Koko.

The number of ramifications only gets denser: Raichu may run Shattered Psyche, it may run Sash while Koko runs the actual Z-move. Obviously Psychium Z was thought as a way to lure Ground-types that are immune or Venusaur, but there's also HP Ice and Grass Knot from either Koko or Raichu. And while using that they don't sacrifice their Z-move.

Not only that, these Terrain abusers don't have to worry about speed creeping to win a weather war, by having the slowest setter and the fastest abuser, or running the actual weather move to regain the advantage.

For now, i think Tapu Koko & Raichu, and possibly Tapu Koko by itself, are unealthy to the metagame due to the fact that they can use their Z-moves with little impunity and have a wide enough movepool that allows them to reply to most players' attempt at beating them, be it through Ground-types, bulky Trick Room setters (Oranguru can't take a combined effort and must play mindgames, by using Protect and letting the TR abuser go wild) or slower Tapus.
A suspect or a ban is due.
 
#80
Marshadow, Tapu Koko, Alola Raichu, Mimikyu, Aegislash, Non-Mega Rain Abusers (namely Kingdra & Ludicolo).
A less common threats would be Landorus-T (w/ Flyium-Z).

Besides Alola Raichu, every threat mentioned above can use a Z-Move, but are also perfectly viable without it, thus adding a new level of unpredictability, which may or may not be "healthy" to the metagame.
Alola Raichu will most likely use Stored Sparksurfer at some point in the match, but it's not guaranteed that it will be turn 1, as it can use Fake Out to break a common Sash user. A number of scenarios may occur:

1. Sash user uses Protect, predicting Raichu's Fake Out attempt to break it.
2. Sash user uses Protect, but Raichu predicts it and uses Stored Sparksurfer, breaking the Sash and paralyzing the user (assuming non-Electric or Ground, obviously).
3. Sash user takes the Fake Out hit, and flinches.
4. Sash user takes the Stored Sparksurfer, and may or may not get full para'd. Not only that, it may or may not be faster than Tapu Koko.

The number of ramifications only gets denser: Raichu may run Shattered Psyche, it may run Sash while Koko runs the actual Z-move. Obviously Psychium Z was thought as a way to lure Ground-types that are immune or Venusaur, but there's also HP Ice and Grass Knot from either Koko or Raichu. And while using that they don't sacrifice their Z-move.

Not only that, these Terrain abusers don't have to worry about speed creeping to win a weather war, by having the slowest setter and the fastest abuser, or running the actual weather move to regain the advantage.

For now, i think Tapu Koko & Raichu, and possibly Tapu Koko by itself, are unealthy to the metagame due to the fact that they can use their Z-moves with little impunity and have a wide enough movepool that allows them to reply to most players' attempt at beating them, be it through Ground-types, bulky Trick Room setters (Oranguru can't take a combined effort and must play mindgames, by using Protect and letting the TR abuser go wild) or slower Tapus.
A suspect or a ban is due.
Maybe due to my own team composition, but I personally do not think raichu is remotely an issue in the metagame. it is both incredibly frail and pretty weak offensively. It is outsped by lopunny for fake out wars and cannot stop marshadow from getting to it. the named pair also has a huge weakness to any sort of weather team and unless double focusing (one with a zmove) cannot break things like tapu bulu. You also cannot pretend like these many scenarios are only on the opponent to figure out. Opponent double protects, or uses scarf, and you lose a lot of your advantage. If you get fakeouted on what should be a zturn, you lose your advantage.

Tapu Koko itself is a pretty strong pokemon but is often vulnerable to sash or lightningrod etc. Of the two I believe koko is the much more potent threat, but as of now I don't think either warrants a ban.

As for the "terrain users don't need to speed creep" they absolutely do. Koko wants to beat fini to make sure hawlucha/hitmonlee gets to uburden? has to be slow, but worries about everything else. They also can't "win" weather wars either, as you can have both rain and electric terrain and get beat up by the weather user.

While you have provided additional z move abusers, I still do not think any of them are over-centralizing or too strong.
 
#81

Should Deoxys-Attack be banned?

The simple answer:

The slightly more complex answer:
Deoxys-Attack has some of the best offensive stats in the game, with an almost unmatched 180/180/150. To counter-act this, it has measly defenses, with it's bulk being comparable to the likes of Caterpie and Weedle. For this reason, it's been allowed to stick around in many doubles formats, being considered a high-risk, high-reward Pokemon.

But are such low defenses really such a big flaw in 2v2? In my opinion, not really. Remember, it still has incredible brute force, surpassing even a lot of Ubers in terms of speed and power. Don't forget that juicy movepool, which, besides the obvious Psycho Boost, also contains Ice Beam, Superpower, Knock Off, Dark Pulse, Extreme Speed, Thunderbolt, Low Kick and Fire Punch. Focus Sash has become the norm on Deoxys, seeing as it's so powerful that Life Orb, Choice items and even Z-crystals are redundant. Sash, meanwhile, allows it to do something it should never be allowed to do in a primarily OU-based format: Take a hit. And if it runs Protect, you're in for a bumpy ride.

Another thing to remember: in 2v2 doubles, switching into a resist is not an answer. If you don't predict it right and the foe sends out Deoxys-A, you're screwed beyond a doubt. And considering it's vast movepool, chances are that even your checks/counters may not be safe. But then again, your opponent can just pair it up with something that removes what few counters it may have.

So yeah, Deoxys-Attack: Not cool. Ban pls.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
#82
Please name 3 pokemon besides bulu, kube, and talonflame that use z moves on a regular basis. Please point out specific threats that actually warp or overcentralize the metagame in some way.
In case you haven't noticed, this meta isn't very developed, especially in gen7 where Z was introduced. We're at an early stage of discovered sets and pokes. In any case, Z on almost any poke in 2v2 Doubles provides an unfair boost, exactly how I explained in my post. Take for example Aromatisse, a support poke that uses TR and Heal Pulse, and isn't known as on offensive threat. With Z it gets, as I said, power comparable to an offensive threat, while also being able to be a support.

Just a simple request before I address your actual arguments... could you not make your whole argument based on strawman arguments? (To clarify, telling us what the opposing viewpoint is in such a way to "burn" it down.) This is widely considered a logical fallacy. A lot of the 'counterarguments' you presented are just plain silly and makes it look like you're trying to discredit those who argue against you rather than address actual flaws in your logic that others may point out.
Except that the "counterarguments" I presented are the actual arguments/questions I've seen/received when suggesting a Z ban for 1v1, nothing more, nothing less. And I presented them as they were presented to me as best I could from recollection. And my whole argument was certainly not based on them, don't know what else I can say besides look at my post again, there's 3 paragraphs that already contain enough arguments for a ban before I even brought up a "counterargument". And I included parts of my argument in my answers to them and after the answers, but that was more for making arguments in a place where they're more relevant than me having to make up silly arguments to get my point across. And regarding my logic, if I thought it was flawed I wouldn't have made arguments based on it, and I did bring up a counterargument of my own, and addressed it.
Again keep in mind that even if the same applies to 6v6, the impact is tripled here.
You say that the "counterarguments" are silly and made to look silly, and yet 2 of them (choice items and protect) have already been brought up here, even though I already even addressed them in my post.
I take it you haven't been around for Z ban discussions for 1v1? I'd appreciate it if you verified where I said these counterarguments come from, and taking a closer look at my post before accusing me of making my "whole argument based on strawman arguments".

Now on to actual arguments...

Your comparison of 2v2 to 6v6 (saying it's the same as having z moves on 3/6 mons is silly (sorry to overuse the word). 2v2 is not 1/3 of doubles ou and it definitely isnt 1/6 of ou. At the teambuilding level you have only two mon cores to consider (two mons on the field at a time I mean). If you have a Z move on more than one mon it is likely that there will come a time when you will have two z users on the field unless you have one of those teams with two completely seperate cores (basically weather or terrain cores). This is obviously not ideal for the z user. In 2v2 there is no switching, there are no hazards (well you can if you want), it's doubles unlike ou, sweeping is very different. Some of these things make z moves better yah (I wouldn't dignify this with a response besides lol in an ou-esque thread) but the fact remains that this is a different environment
2v2=/=a fraction of other metas
Of course 2v2 and 6v6 are different, but the metas being different due to one being 2 pokes and the other being 6 pokes, doesn't make the cost for Z, which is the limit of once per battle, any different. 2 is a fraction of 6, which makes the cost too low for 2v2 Doubles.

and if you want z moves banned you really need to bring up some specific threats imo. Not just some actually, but a lot, and show why it's z moves that breaks them.
No, I don't need to bring up specific threats, because everyone knows what Z does and I've explained how it provides an unfair boost for the cost given the nature of this meta. I'm not arguing about specific things here, I'm arguing about the entire metagame and how Z affects it.

A second point is that Z moves are not OHKO moves. You seem to be treating them like they are. Using a Z move does not guarantee you killing the targeted mon, and doing 75% through protect is an exception, nor the rule. I've found it more common to do less than 50, but it depends so much on the mons that any estimation is basically meaningless. This point is important. You seem to think whoever gets off a z move takes down a mon regardless of typing or attack stats, which is just silly.
I never said they were guaranteed OHKO moves, nor treated them as such. As I said in my post, they either OHKO, and in the cases they don't, the damage they dealt is way more than the user would have otherwise dealt. Which a lot of the times is matchup changing for the receiving poke, especially with support from a partner. In cases where a poke would have lived and pulled something off, it's instead a KO with the help from the partner, or just a KO from any of the opposing pokes next turn, a turn where the receiving end would have done something otherwise. And as you say, and as I said, the Z damage through Protect depends on the type effectiveness and the difference in stats. The point is that Protect is not a guaranteed counter.

You're starting from the assumption that z moves are broken. Remember the burden of proof rests on those trying to change the status quo according to ou policy. Prove to us it's broken rather than stating it's broken and then trying to get use to prove you wrong.
The proof is the entire premise. It's not an assumption when something that has power balanced for a battle that involves 6 pokes per team is allowed in a meta where battles involve 2 pokes team, where the cost is that it can only be used once per battle. And it's not an assumption when I've played 1v1 and 2v2 Doubles, analysing Z in each battle and coming to the conclusion based on the battles. Everyone knows the damage boost Z provides, and it doesn't take proof to know that the scenarios I analysed are actually affected the way they are with Z. If you know the cost of Z, and you know that it ramps up damage of moves to a power level comparable to that of, and sometimes even higher than choice band/specs and/or moves with low distribution and/or negative side effects / accuracy deficiencies / conditions, and you know what the cost is for such power without Z, then you also know that the cost is too low for the gain. Take for example Perish Song or Lele, you know what they do (and if you didn't, there were many posts analysing the situation in Perish Song's case), and you can judge that what they do is unfair and too much for 2v2 Doubles. If you want something as redundant as a calc, here you go:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 237-280 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 118-141 (33.3 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Matchup-changing damage, that Aegislash wouldn't otherwise have access to.

0 SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 127-151 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO

Just a demonstration of how different archetypes such as support gets the ability to nuke.

252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oranguru: 223-264 (58 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oranguru: 112-133 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO

Just another scenario where a poke gets to use setup, while also getting access to without setup damage comparable to that of a choice band. Again matchup changing.

And speaking of OU policy:
Definitions for Tiering Policy:
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
Overall Goal and Purpose of Tiering Policy:
III. To ensure that actions are taken with appropriate and complete justification.

C.) We will expect and demand in-depth analysis into what particular factor(s) of skill is reduced, how the proposed suspect element is actually the cause, and why and how removing (or adding) this element will improve the metagame.
E.) Arguments that show how a specific suspect element affects skill in relative terms to other elements in the metagame will be very, very, highly emphasized.
Comparing to other moves, items, and combinations of moves and items, Z moves are too good. What would otherwise have been the right play in many situations is rendered irrelevant because of Z moves' sheer power that transcends type effectiveness, pokemon archetypes, and stat differences. You find the in-depth analysis in my initial post. What I didn't go over is how removing Z moves will improve the metagame. First and foremost, the removal of Z would help take the meta towards a more balanced direction in the opposite of kill ASAP type of battles, and reduce the power creep outlined in my initial post. You wouldn't be able to be able to make a poke that normally has to give up offensive power to do what it does, while also forgoing that cost by adding a Z crystal. Going from how 2v2 Doubles played in gen6, you could already see the difference Z makes. And while gen6 was centralized around weather, nothing was nearly as much of a problem as much as Z moves are in gen7.

Tl;dr don't strawman, 2v2=/=a fraction of other metas, z moves don't OHKO, provide actual meta relevant evidence.
TL;DR Didn't strawman, never said 2v2 Doubles is a fraction of another meta, never said that Z moves always OHKO, nor that that's the sole reason that makes them broken, and the (actual meta relevant) analysis I provided can be seen as evidence enough.
 

DEG

Is 1v1 a matchup and hax based metagame?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
#83
Focus Sash is now banned from 2v2 doubles.

Focus Sash literally gives a Pokemon a free turn in a metagame where each turn matters. With it being the best item in the metagame slapping Focus Sash on a frail and strong Pokemon can never go wrong allowing it to get easily a kill. Double targetting the Sash user was an answer but a lot of factors can stop this such as Protect or simply giving the other foe a free turn and even the Sash user might be faster and dent the team before dying and wasting two attacks. For these reasons Focus Sash was deemed unhealthy for the metagame and deserved the ban.

Tagging The Immortal to ban Focus Sash.
 
#84
0 SpA Aromatisse Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 193-228 (56.5 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 102-121 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 27.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 180-214 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not exactly nuclear by any means, it just becomes the equivalent of a standard hit for most average level offense mons. The only Z-Moves that are really notable are the ones that have artificial boosts backing them, like rain or terrains.

252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 366-432 (107.3 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Kingdra Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 400-472 (117.3 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Raichu-Alola Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 366-432 (107.3 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Blast Burn vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 427-504 (125.2 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

This is something actually notable for specifically 2v2, since in 1v1 the pokemon that abuse these speed boosting abilities would normally have to sacrifice a turn in order to set them up, but if they have them from the start, that becomes a different story. So the only form of Z restricting I can support right now is limiting stones from Swift Swim/Surge Surfer users. Possibly Chlorophyll too, but eh
 
#86
I think Parting shot may need to be banned since you cant switch
Not happening. The only three users of this move are Pangoro, Alolan Persian and Silvally, all of which are unviable and outclassed in this format.

And as for my new thoughts on Deoxys-Attack now Focus Sash is gone: It's difficult to say, but at the moment, it still seems a tad much. Now it can Specs or Z-Crystals to kill all, and still has those stupid offenses and giant movepool.
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#87
I think Parting shot may need to be banned since you cant switch
I may be misunderstanding this butI think you mean because Parting Shot forces switches it needs to be banned. That doesn't happen in this format. After team preview your team has effectively only 2 mons.

If you mean that the stat lowering effect is broken then I agree with Yung Dramps.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
#89
The state of the meta
Definitely problems

Z moves


Initial post
Follow up post

Very likely problems

Marshadow
HP 90 Atk 125 Def 80 SpA 90 SpD 90 Spe 125 BST 600

This poke is just straight up better than the other pokes. Its base stats, great typing, resulting in perfect STAB coverage, combined with the fact that it has built in anti offensive/defensive setup into its standard, high base power attack is the main problem. And the fact that it steals the stat boosts while doing that is just a slap to the face. The cost of anti setup (Clear Smog is the closest i could think of) was distribution and base power. It's currently being suspected by Doubles OU, and arguments against a ban include the existence of Intimidate switch-ins, the fact that Marshadow can't really switch into whatever it pleases, and that Marshadow is needed to break the bulky (setup?) pokes that seem to be the current Doubles OU meta. Needless to say, none of those apply to the 2v2 meta.

Mega Salamence HP 95 Atk 145 Def 130 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 120 BST 700

Banned last gen. Another case of a poke being way better than the rest. The cause is its amazing base stats combined with its great complimentary ability, base form ability, and movepool. The stats cause it to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. Its base form ability is one of the best abilities to have in doubles and in general, and it gets to apply the Intimidate debuff while also getting an amazing ability (Aerilate) that gives it an abundance of attacking options. Which adds more teambuilding strain due to the uncertainty of whether the Megamence is physical, special, or mixed, all of which require different answers defensively. Reasons for no ban include the Aerilate nerf this gen, and the introduction of the Tapu pokes. Lele was banned already though due to its ability, which boosts psychic type attacks proving to be too much. Koko and Bulu have the same attack boosting mechanics but for their respective types, which could prove to be too much as well.

Kyurem-Black HP 125 Atk 170 Def 100 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 95 BST 700

Another case of a poke being able to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. There's not much to say here besides that it's able to utilize those base stats and various items which allow it to be physically offensive / specially offensive / mixed / fast attacker / bulky offence, all while being bulky enough to be able to take at least a hit from almost any poke, while also at the same time being able to deal some ridiculous damage. Just straight up better than the rest of the pokes.

I brought these up because while possible to deal with, you're still limited to just 2 pokes. 6v6 allows for bringing more pokes that can deal with different threats. That's why it's even more important in 2v2 Doubles that no poke is blatantly better than the rest.

Weather

Overcentralizing last gen to the point where almost every team had at least 1 weather core, if not 2, which resulted in a lot of 50/50's at team preview. You really needed to deal with the weather cores as the benefits to both pokes in a weather core was no joke, and proved to be one of the best strats if not the best strat in 2v2 Doubles. Has shown to be at least as good this gen, with additions like Slush Rush, Alola Ninetales and Sandslash bringing Snow Warning and Slush Rush respectively, Aurora Veil, Torkoal getting Drought, and Pelipper getting Drizzle. Something about weather probably needs to get hit. The question to ask is what? And the feasible options as I see it is banning weather inducing abilities or speed boosting abilities. If weather inducing abilities are banned, the pokes with the speed boosting abilities will need a turn while a partner sets the weather. Played around with Protect, which causes 50/50's, but in general seems to be the option with most counterplay as setting weather can be prevented by KO or Taunt for example. Prankster can get around that if not facing Fake Out, but the Prankster pokes come with their own limitations. If the speed boosting abilities are banned, then the weathers are still able to instantly reap the benefits of types being boosted / debuffed and moves hitting with perfect accuracy / no charge turn, which was almost equally as important as the speed buff, if not more important in some cases.

Post sash ban

Victini @ Choice Scarf, max speed (100 base), max HP (100 base) final gambit, whatever moves
Accelgor @ Choice Scarf, max speed (145 base), max HP (80 base) final gambit, whatever moves

With sash gone, so is one of the largest obstacles for this strat, reducing the risk of using it extremely. Using this strat basically allows you to turn the 2v2 Doubles into a 1v1 with the favourable matchup for you. When successful, it also ruins any synergy plans of the opponents. Stopped by pokes outspeeding (not many), ghost types, priority, and Protect while the partner attacks to reduce the Final Gambit damage (50/50's). Having more than 100 / (80) base HP avoids a KO, but then again there's not too many such pokes, and the partner could still ensure the KO if the base HP isn't much higher than 100 / (80). However, the user could just opt for not using Final Gambit and instead use any other move (which isn't negligible in damage or utility) whether by suspecting that the plan won't work or from having experienced failure against a certain matchup. It's an undesirable strat in the meta to say the least.


Potentially / probably problems

Tapu Koko HP 70 Atk 115 Def 85 SpA 95 SpD 75 Spe 130 BST 570

As mentioned above, the reason this poke is potentially a problem is its ability, Electric Surge. With more than decent base stats, it's not a burden to bring even on its own. Allows for it and its partners a relevant enough boost to electric attacks the same way Tapu Lele did. In general has worked pretty well so far with various electric type partners. Very likely a problem when partnered with Alola Raichu. Could also be used to give psuedo-STAB to non electric types.

Tapu Bulu HP 70 Atk 130 Def 115 SpA 85 SpD 95 Spe 75 BST 570

Pretty much same as above except that it's instead a good bulky hard hitting offence that pulls it's own weight with attacks such as the more commonly used Wood Hammer, and Horn Leech. Its typing and the type its terrain boosts are unfortunate, but given that it's the same premise as with Lele, it could still prove to be a problem.

Post sash ban

Explosion

Again with sash gone, so is one of the largest obstacles for this strat. While Sash could be used to help ensure that the poke survives to use Explosion, most of the time it isn't needed since most, if not all viable users can take a hit. Explosion is potentially a problem because it's an easy way out of actually playing the meta, and could be a proponent for power creep, speed creep, and 50/50's with Protect.
 
Last edited:
#90
The state of the meta
Definitely problems

Z moves


Initial post
Follow up post
Very likely problems

Marshadow
HP 90 Atk 125 Def 80 SpA 90 SpD 90 Spe 125 BST 600

This poke is just straight up better than the other pokes. Its base stats, great typing, resulting in perfect STAB coverage, combined with the fact that it has built in anti offensive/defensive setup into its standard, high base power attack is the main problem. And the fact that it steals the stat boosts while doing that is just a slap to the face. The cost of anti setup (Clear Smog is the closest i could think of) was distribution and base power. It's currently being suspected by Doubles OU, and arguments against a ban include the existence of Intimidate switch-ins, the fact that Marshadow can't really switch into whatever it pleases, and that Marshadow is needed to break the bulky (setup?) pokes that seem to be the current Doubles OU meta. Needless to say, none of those apply to the 2v2 meta.

Mega Salamence HP 95 Atk 145 Def 130 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 120 BST 700

Banned last gen. Another case of a poke being way better than the rest. The cause is its amazing base stats combined with its great complimentary ability, base form ability, and movepool. The stats cause it to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. Its base form ability is one of the best abilities to have in doubles and in general, and it gets to apply the Intimidate debuff while also getting an amazing ability (Aerilate) that gives it an abundance of attacking options. Which adds more teambuilding strain due to the uncertainty of whether the Megamence is physical, special, or mixed, all of which require different answers defensively. Reasons for no ban include the Aerilate nerf this gen, and the introduction of the Tapu pokes. Lele was banned already though due to its ability, which boosts psychic type attacks proving to be too much. Koko and Bulu have the same attack boosting mechanics but for their respective types, which could prove to be too much as well.

Kyurem-Black HP 125 Atk 170 Def 100 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 95 BST 700

Another case of a poke being able to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. There's not much to say here besides that it's able to utilize those base stats and various items which allow it to be physically offensive / specially offensive / mixed / fast attacker / bulky offence, all while being bulky enough to be able to take at least a hit from almost any poke, while also at the same time being able to deal some ridiculous damage. Just straight up better than the rest of the pokes.

I brought these up because while possible to deal with, you're still limited to just 2 pokes. 6v6 allows for bringing more pokes that can deal with different threats. That's why it's even more important in 2v2 Doubles that no poke is blatantly better than the rest.

Weather

Overcentralizing last gen to the point where almost every team had at least 1 weather core, if not 2, which resulted in a lot of 50/50's at team preview. You really needed to deal with the weather cores as the benefits to both pokes in a weather core was no joke, and proved to be one of the best strats if not the best strat in 2v2 Doubles. Has shown to be at least as good this gen, with additions like Slush Rush, Alola Ninetales and Sandslash bringing Snow Warning and Slush Rush respectively, Aurora Veil, Torkoal getting Drought, and Pelipper getting Drizzle. Something about weather probably needs to get hit. The question to ask is what? And the feasible options as I see it is banning weather inducing abilities or speed boosting abilities. If weather inducing abilities are banned, the pokes with the speed boosting abilities will need a turn while a partner sets the weather. Played around with Protect, which causes 50/50's, but in general seems to be the option with most counterplay as setting weather can be prevented by KO or Taunt for example. Prankster can get around that if not facing Fake Out, but the Prankster pokes come with their own limitations. If the speed boosting abilities are banned, then the weathers are still able to instantly reap the benefits of types being boosted / debuffed and moves hitting with perfect accuracy / no charge turn, which was almost equally as important as the speed buff, if not more important in some cases.

Post sash ban

Victini @ Choice Scarf, max speed (100 base), max HP (100 base) final gambit, whatever moves
Accelgor @ Choice Scarf, max speed (145 base), max HP (80 base) final gambit, whatever moves

With sash gone, so is one of the largest obstacles for this strat, reducing the risk of using it extremely. Using this strat basically allows you to turn the 2v2 Doubles into a 1v1 with the favourable matchup for you. When successful, it also ruins any synergy plans of the opponents. Stopped by pokes outspeeding (not many), ghost types, priority, and Protect while the partner attacks to reduce the Final Gambit damage (50/50's). Having more than 100 / (80) base HP avoids a KO, but then again there's not too many such pokes, and the partner could still ensure the KO if the base HP isn't much higher than 100 / (80). However, the user could just opt for not using Final Gambit and instead use any other move (which isn't negligible in damage or utility) whether by suspecting that the plan won't work or from having experienced failure against a certain matchup. It's an undesirable strat in the meta to say the least.


Potentially / probably problems

Tapu Koko HP 70 Atk 115 Def 85 SpA 95 SpD 75 Spe 130 BST 570

As mentioned above, the reason this poke is potentially a problem is its ability, Electric Surge. With more than decent base stats, it's not a burden to bring even on its own. Allows for it and its partners a relevant enough boost to electric attacks the same way Tapu Lele did. In general has worked pretty well so far with various electric type partners. Very likely a problem when partnered with Alola Raichu. Could also be used to give psuedo-STAB to non electric types.

Tapu Bulu HP 70 Atk 130 Def 115 SpA 85 SpD 95 Spe 75 BST 570

Pretty much same as above except that it's instead a good bulky hard hitting offence that pulls it's own weight with attacks such as the more commonly used Wood Hammer, and Horn Leech. Its typing and the type its terrain boosts are unfortunate, but given that it's the same premise as with Lele, it could still prove to be a problem.

Post sash ban

Explosion

Again with sash gone, so is one of the largest obstacles for this strat. While Sash could be used to help ensure that the poke survives to use Explosion, most of the time it isn't needed since most, if not all viable users can take a hit. Explosion is potentially a problem because it's an easy way out of actually playing the meta, and could be a proponent for power creep, speed creep, and 50/50's with Protect.
Real quick question why isn't deo A on your list of problems?

(Also why is bulu on your list what)
 
#91
Not happening. The only three users of this move are Pangoro, Alolan Persian and Silvally, all of which are unviable and outclassed in this format.

And as for my new thoughts on Deoxys-Attack now Focus Sash is gone: It's difficult to say, but at the moment, it still seems a tad much. Now it can Specs or Z-Crystals to kill all, and still has those stupid offenses and giant movepool.
Smeargle can also learn it though
 

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#93
The state of the meta
Definitely problems

Z moves


Initial post
Follow up post
Very likely problems

Marshadow
HP 90 Atk 125 Def 80 SpA 90 SpD 90 Spe 125 BST 600

This poke is just straight up better than the other pokes. Its base stats, great typing, resulting in perfect STAB coverage, combined with the fact that it has built in anti offensive/defensive setup into its standard, high base power attack is the main problem. And the fact that it steals the stat boosts while doing that is just a slap to the face. The cost of anti setup (Clear Smog is the closest i could think of) was distribution and base power. It's currently being suspected by Doubles OU, and arguments against a ban include the existence of Intimidate switch-ins, the fact that Marshadow can't really switch into whatever it pleases, and that Marshadow is needed to break the bulky (setup?) pokes that seem to be the current Doubles OU meta. Needless to say, none of those apply to the 2v2 meta.

Mega Salamence HP 95 Atk 145 Def 130 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 120 BST 700

Banned last gen. Another case of a poke being way better than the rest. The cause is its amazing base stats combined with its great complimentary ability, base form ability, and movepool. The stats cause it to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. Its base form ability is one of the best abilities to have in doubles and in general, and it gets to apply the Intimidate debuff while also getting an amazing ability (Aerilate) that gives it an abundance of attacking options. Which adds more teambuilding strain due to the uncertainty of whether the Megamence is physical, special, or mixed, all of which require different answers defensively. Reasons for no ban include the Aerilate nerf this gen, and the introduction of the Tapu pokes. Lele was banned already though due to its ability, which boosts psychic type attacks proving to be too much. Koko and Bulu have the same attack boosting mechanics but for their respective types, which could prove to be too much as well.

Kyurem-Black HP 125 Atk 170 Def 100 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 95 BST 700

Another case of a poke being able to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. There's not much to say here besides that it's able to utilize those base stats and various items which allow it to be physically offensive / specially offensive / mixed / fast attacker / bulky offence, all while being bulky enough to be able to take at least a hit from almost any poke, while also at the same time being able to deal some ridiculous damage. Just straight up better than the rest of the pokes.

I brought these up because while possible to deal with, you're still limited to just 2 pokes. 6v6 allows for bringing more pokes that can deal with different threats. That's why it's even more important in 2v2 Doubles that no poke is blatantly better than the rest.

Weather

Overcentralizing last gen to the point where almost every team had at least 1 weather core, if not 2, which resulted in a lot of 50/50's at team preview. You really needed to deal with the weather cores as the benefits to both pokes in a weather core was no joke, and proved to be one of the best strats if not the best strat in 2v2 Doubles. Has shown to be at least as good this gen, with additions like Slush Rush, Alola Ninetales and Sandslash bringing Snow Warning and Slush Rush respectively, Aurora Veil, Torkoal getting Drought, and Pelipper getting Drizzle. Something about weather probably needs to get hit. The question to ask is what? And the feasible options as I see it is banning weather inducing abilities or speed boosting abilities. If weather inducing abilities are banned, the pokes with the speed boosting abilities will need a turn while a partner sets the weather. Played around with Protect, which causes 50/50's, but in general seems to be the option with most counterplay as setting weather can be prevented by KO or Taunt for example. Prankster can get around that if not facing Fake Out, but the Prankster pokes come with their own limitations. If the speed boosting abilities are banned, then the weathers are still able to instantly reap the benefits of types being boosted / debuffed and moves hitting with perfect accuracy / no charge turn, which was almost equally as important as the speed buff, if not more important in some cases.

Post sash ban

Victini @ Choice Scarf, max speed (100 base), max HP (100 base) final gambit, whatever moves
Accelgor @ Choice Scarf, max speed (145 base), max HP (80 base) final gambit, whatever moves

With sash gone, so is one of the largest obstacles for this strat, reducing the risk of using it extremely. Using this strat basically allows you to turn the 2v2 Doubles into a 1v1 with the favourable matchup for you. When successful, it also ruins any synergy plans of the opponents. Stopped by pokes outspeeding (not many), ghost types, priority, and Protect while the partner attacks to reduce the Final Gambit damage (50/50's). Having more than 100 / (80) base HP avoids a KO, but then again there's not too many such pokes, and the partner could still ensure the KO if the base HP isn't much higher than 100 / (80). However, the user could just opt for not using Final Gambit and instead use any other move (which isn't negligible in damage or utility) whether by suspecting that the plan won't work or from having experienced failure against a certain matchup. It's an undesirable strat in the meta to say the least.


Potentially / probably problems

Tapu Koko HP 70 Atk 115 Def 85 SpA 95 SpD 75 Spe 130 BST 570

As mentioned above, the reason this poke is potentially a problem is its ability, Electric Surge. With more than decent base stats, it's not a burden to bring even on its own. Allows for it and its partners a relevant enough boost to electric attacks the same way Tapu Lele did. In general has worked pretty well so far with various electric type partners. Very likely a problem when partnered with Alola Raichu. Could also be used to give psuedo-STAB to non electric types.

Tapu Bulu HP 70 Atk 130 Def 115 SpA 85 SpD 95 Spe 75 BST 570

Pretty much same as above except that it's instead a good bulky hard hitting offence that pulls it's own weight with attacks such as the more commonly used Wood Hammer, and Horn Leech. Its typing and the type its terrain boosts are unfortunate, but given that it's the same premise as with Lele, it could still prove to be a problem.

Post sash ban

Explosion

Again with sash gone, so is one of the largest obstacles for this strat. While Sash could be used to help ensure that the poke survives to use Explosion, most of the time it isn't needed since most, if not all viable users can take a hit. Explosion is potentially a problem because it's an easy way out of actually playing the meta, and could be a proponent for power creep, speed creep, and 50/50's with Protect.
I think out of all of these weather is the biggest and most immediate problem. It's, as Rump said, on essentially every team, and just more powerful than non-weather cores. I personally think Sand Rush/Swift Swim are the most obvious candidates for the banhammer but really I'm not picky so long as weather gets nerfed.

For Marshadow I think we should at least wait for the end of the dou suspect and make a decision with that in mind.

Deo-A is certainly problematic as Yoman said.

Also fk final gambit. Especially because scarftini is good otherwise, with fusion flare and a kyub buddy fusion bolting. Ban plz.
 

DEG

Is 1v1 a matchup and hax based metagame?
is a Smogon Media Contributor
#94
After Focus Sash and Tapu Lele ban the 2v2 doubles has been better though some problems still reside as mentioned above, Weather and Deoxys-Attack. I want to hear opinions on whether we should Ban Deoxys-Attack from the 2v2 doubles metagame even post-sash ban.

Another question is, Should Weather be nerfed? If Yes, should we ban Weather inducing abilities such as Drought, Drizzle etc... or stick with banning the moves that abuse these abilities (Sand Rush, Swift Swim...)?
 
#95
After Focus Sash and Tapu Lele ban the 2v2 doubles has been better though some problems still reside as mentioned above, Weather and Deoxys-Attack. I want to hear opinions on whether we should Ban Deoxys-Attack from the 2v2 doubles metagame even post-sash ban.
Deoxys-Attack is nearly unwallable in this metagame. Even after post-Sash bans, Deoxys-A is still a threat and it still excels decimating more than half of the meta. The thing I like to abuse the most about Deoxys-A is using Psychinium Z with Psycho Boost to just remove anything that is not Dark-type, and unless you have a level of bulk near Eviolite Chansey or some sort, you aren't going to survive it:

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Shattered Psyche (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 370-436 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This isn't something that you want to experience in 2v2 Doubles with DOU banlist where you won't have a chance to revenge kill after your leads faint. Oh, Dark-types aren't safe either:

* Tyranitar is OHKOed by Superpower.
* Mega Gyarados cannot outspeed Deoxys-A after a Dragon Dance and Deoxys-A can choose to OHKO it with Thunderbolt if Gyarados does not mega evolve, or use Focus Blast-based Fightinium Z (I might be the only one who use it but it OHKOs Abomasnow and some stuff without murdering your sp.atk with Psycho Boost) to OHKO Mega Gyarados.

Another thing that should be pointed out from Deoxys-A is its size of the movepool. It hits the entire metagame supereffectively, and the problem with 4 moveslot syndrome can be mediated by the partner next to it. Also, the guy next to Deoxys-A can spam follow me while Deoxys-A sets up Nasty Plot and proceeds to remove one of the opponents next turn. Although this example is quite unrealistic considering the existence of Abomasnow and Earthquake users, all of them can potentially be OHKOed before it does anything.

At this point, the only viable counterplay against Deoxys-A I believe, is Trick Room; but while the opponent sets a Trick Room, they have to dedicate to use a turn for that, meaning Deoxys-A can just simply remove one of their partners the first turn. This means even Trick Room duo won't be safe from Deoxys-A unless they predict and use Protect appropriately, which isn't even a consistent strategy. Diancie is simply going to be blown up by Shattered Psyche, and this leaves Hoopa-U and Magearna the only viable counters to Deoxys-A overall, while Hoopa-U greatly struggles with the rest of the meta thanks to its abysmal physical bulk and mediocre speed that doesn't shine outsides Trick Room.

I think banning Deoxys-A from 2v2 Doubles is the way to go, it is just a tool used to remove anything that is not specifically prepared to check it. This is somewhat similar phenomenon to Marshadow's short existence in 1v1; nothing is able to wall it without insane innate bulk or very specific typing (which is bad against the rest of the metagame in exchange), and Focus Sash isn't the factor that makes Deoxys-A dominant; weather damage and Fake Out spams existed beforehand, and Deoxys-A doesn't mind about sash or whatever and can run Life Orb, Psychinium Z, or even White Herb.

Another question is, Should Weather be nerfed? If Yes, should we ban Weather inducing abilities such as Drought, Drizzle etc... or stick with banning the moves that abuse these abilities (Sand Rush, Swift Swim...)?
I am not completely sure about this, but I don't believe these are banworthy. Yes, they are powerful, but I think all these weather duo's have checks around:

* Sand Rush team with Tyranitar and Excadrill greatly struggles with Gyarados which uses Intimidate to both, and they just lose to Water-types because they just can't hit them supereffectively with standard movesets.
* Drought team with Mega Charizard Y and Life Orb + Chlorophyll Venusaur, I noticed this thing was in OP. The thing is I simply run Air Balloon Heatran which at least ends up doing something unless it is against the rain team. Anyways, I don't think Sun team is so hot in this meta because almost no Chlorophyll users are really good against the meta, judging from this:

upload_2017-8-11_11-18-8.png

* I would say Rain team is the toughest weather team to face according to my experience. Mega Swampert is a pain to deal with unless you got a Grass-type coverage, and it is too bulky to be taken down in just couple turns. In addition, Pelipper doesn't only set the weather with Drizzle, but it also harasses opponents with Sky Drop, Icy Wind, etc. It might be just me but I carry Grass-types all the time just to CT rain teams.

I think I might be incorrect about weather teams so please correct me if I am. But I am not certain if weather factors are banworthy or not.
 
#98
I found something quite interesting.

Pyukumuku @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Innards Out
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Purify
- Toxic
- Recover
- Soak

Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Psych Up

Strat is simple. Turn 1 Pyukumuku Recovers and Sigilyph uses Roost to heal off any possible damage. Turn 2 Pyukumuku uses Z-Purify on Sigilyph which Roosts again. Turn 3 Pyukumuku either uses Toxic or Purify on Sigiliyph / Recover and Sigilyph starts sweeping with Stored Power. Heat Wave is for coverage and can be swapped out for Psycho Shift and Soak disables Dark Types which otherwise trouble this strategy and Adaptability users ;)
Both Pokemon carry Max HP and mixed defences in order to easily tank hits.
Shoutout to Iron Crusher for helping me test this.
 
#99
First thing that came tomy mind when US/UM came out:
Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower / Flash Cannon
- Substitute

Greninja @ Choice Scarf or Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mat Block
- Hydro Cannon
- Gunk Shot
- Grass Knot

I'm also going to start a discussion,to revive the thread:
Is Kommonium-Z banworthy?
 
First thing that came tomy mind when US/UM came out:
Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower / Flash Cannon
- Substitute

Greninja @ Choice Scarf or Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Mat Block
- Hydro Cannon
- Gunk Shot
- Grass Knot

I'm also going to start a discussion,to revive the thread:
Is Kommonium-Z banworthy?
[12:54] lost heros: I'll post something about Kommo soon
>motogp posts 6 minutes later.


Some other things to mention about Kommo-o. Clangorous Soulblaze is sound-based meaning it targets both opponents and ruins their day and then proceeds to set up. (This is important as it doesn't boost before attacking like Spectral Thief). Kommo-o also has a great move pool for 2v2 doubles including Earthquake, Rock Slide, Close Combat, and a plethora of coverage moves. Clanging Scales is also sound based and also targets both opponents.

Other great teammates for Kommo-o include, Rage Powder Ammongus or Tangrowth, Follow Me Friend Guard Clefairy, Follow Me Mega Lucario (useful for either letting Kommo-o set up or break