A call to action ; Ubers

[DeLorean]

Ubers is my favorite metagame. I think that it has so much potential with astronomical stats and some of the best abusers of weather, status, attack, and just the best general abusers of everything.

I think that, however awesome it is, ubers will always continue to gain with popularity.

That's good.

However, the analysis about non-uber pokemon in ubers are usually fairly pitiful. It's harder for our newer members to get into the game when they only really get half the story on how to play a funner game.

That's bad.

This is a call to action. I'm starting a project, to make the analysis better for uber-optimized pokemon. I've done blissey earier today, but it was mostly trainman. If you want to add to that, feel free.

So! These are the pokemon that I think should be added to on the analysis'. If you think they needed to be added to, write a peer edit.

Italic: Work in Process

Underline: Slight Mention; Will probably suffice (add to it if you wish)

Bold: Nothing

Bold / Underline: Slight Mention; Needs expantion

This is the list of pokemon that are being worked on:

Blissey - Xaio & TrainMan

Tyranitar - Blue Kirby

Quagsire - COAlex

Kingdra - RaikouLover

Ludicolo - Clash..?

These pokemon need to be completed:

Metagross -

Heracross -

Skarmory -

Forretress -

Weavile -

Garchomp -

Scizor -

Jirachi -

Bronzong -

Celebi -

And these pokemon will only need a slight mention;

Lapras, Drapion, Lanturn, Shiftry, Dugtrio, Magnezone, Ninjask, Yanmega

Quite a few of these will only need a slight metion, on how to use it effectively. There might be totally much more useful sets that you can use for it. Some pokemon will probably not need a mention at all.

Just post here if you want to help with writing an analysis, or even a mention.

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, I already wrote a damn piece about Kingdra that was ignored. Gengar deserves a mention because he can make headway with his standard choice scarf set. Lanturn can absorb thunders and throw them out as well. Hell, even Yanmega can make headway in ubers raping psychics with speed boost and bug buzz. Oh yea, I tested all of them, and they are perfectly viable.

 

[DeLorean]

Well, I already wrote a damn piece about Kingdra that was ignored. Gengar deserves a mention because he can make headway with his standard choice scarf set. Lanturn can absorb thunders and throw them out as well. Hell, even Yanmega can make headway in ubers raping psychics with speed boost and bug buzz. Oh yea, I tested all of them, and they are perfectly viable.

Kingdra has many good points, which are viable in ubers. Could you give me a link to your analysis? I'll bump it for you. Gengar really needs a few sentences to say "scarf, sash, and LO sets are totally viable in ubers". Lanturn, not so much. When you have dialga and shedinja to absorb your bolt-beam woes in ubers, I think lanturn is outclassed a lot. Yanmega is awesome out the wazoo, but blissey and latias are on every team, and they can wall him pretty well. With whatever HP he has, dialga or giratina wall her really easily. Kingdra is a plus.

Abamasnow: STAB Blizzard for Dragons, STAB Wood Hammer/Grass Knot for Kyogre/Groudon allow him to make up for his less than average (Sp.) Attack. If only because he gets both STAB and Super Effective Damage. He also allows your teammates to abuse Blizzard, which can sometimes be used on say LAti@s over Ice Beam thanks to Abamasnow.

Eh. Obamasnow doesn't hit shit for shit. Sure, it gets the weather trio and dragons, but it's just not very good. Almost any steel type walls it; so write something if you want to.

Cresselia: With Groudon Support, Moonlight can be used. (Don't say Drizzle skrews it up, because the same can be said about Sandstorm in OU, but people still opt for Moonlight sometimes).

What? People who use moonlight on cress need to get their priorities in check. Besides, with 8 pp and SO many legends with pressure, that becomes useless fast.

Heatran: There.

Yanmega: SR isn't common in Ubers.

You'd be surprised, and the reasons stated above.

Gengar: Above.

Kingdra: Above.

Starmie: Another fast boltbeamer? :O

Toxicroak: I'm working on this.

 

[Perfection]

I would like to add to your list some of the following pokemon.

Abamasnow: STAB Blizzard for Dragons, STAB Wood Hammer/Grass Knot for Kyogre/Groudon allow him to make up for his less than average (Sp.) Attack. If only because he gets both STAB and Super Effective Damage. He also allows your teammates to abuse Blizzard, which can sometimes be used on say LAti@s over Ice Beam thanks to Abamasnow. Also, remember Lugia uses Ice Beam with a base 90 Special Attack, and still performs well when it does Super Effective damage. Imagine a Blizzard hitting a Giratina (most have a Physical Defense focus). 360 Base Power even from a weak 92 base SP. Attack is quite strong. *120 x 1.5= 180 x 2 = 360 ^

Cresselia: With Groudon Support, Moonlight can be used. (Don't say Drizzle skrews it up, because the same can be said about Sandstorm in OU, but people still opt for Moonlight sometimes).

Heatran: Great switch-in for Ho-oh, resists Dark/Ice/Ghost/Bug/Grass Knot which can be useful. Dragon Pulse covers Lati@s, and Hp Ice can be for Rayquaza.

Yanmega: SR isn't common in Ubers. Don't say 116 Sp. Attack is weak in Ubers, with Speed Boost Yanmega can be Modest which makes it hit harder than some Timid Special Attackers. (364 Special attack is stronger than a Timid/Jolly pokemon with 130 base (Sp.) Attack as it only reaches 359). Bug Buzz allows it to hit many common Sweepers hard. Air Slash allows it to kill Scarf Heracross, not to mention outspeed Deoxys with 2 Speed Boosts.

Gengar: Scarf + Modest outspeeds Deoxys, Mewtwo, and may KO some other Psychics.

Kingdra: Kyogre support

Starmie: Specs with Hydro Pump +Thunder with Kyogre support. Ice Beam is also what make Starmie viable.

Toxicroak: Can come in on Kyogre, and heal 12% without even using Leftovers in the Rain. Sucker Punch those speedy Psychics. Toxicroak can also abuse Life Orb in the Rain as it still heals 2% each turn. I admit it is a weak attack (106 is weak in Ubers), but the fact it can use Life Orb and not take damage, and be one of the only Pokemon who can trully switch into a Specs Water Spout and still come out at full health says alot. Sucker Punch is it's other saving grace. Swords Dance + Life Orb allows it to catch up to it's Uber counterparts. Again, it sucks normally, but with Kyogre support (whether it on your team, or your opponent facing you with their own Kyogre), Toxicroak makes an interesting counter especially with many Psychics/Ghosts running around so Toxicroak can use Sucker Punch.

As for Lanturn, I disagree because it's Special Attack is too low, use Starmie instead, as SpecsStar uses Specs to make-up for its lack of STAB on Thunder *literally since STAB = x1.5, just like Specs = x1.5)*. If you are concerned about absorbing Thunders use a Garchomp.

Exeggutor: Groudon

Tangrowth: Groudon

Roserade: Scarf makes it usable. Weather Ball is another saving grace. Leaf Storm/Weather Ball/Sleep Powder/Hidden Power Ice.

Shedinja:

Typhlosion: With Groudon support, Typhlosion can act as a fire-Kyogre *ab*using Eruption. Scarf him of course.

Mantine: Able to come in on both Kyogre and Groudon. It can also take Overheat with its resistance and high Special Defense. Watch out for Stone Edge/Thunder though. Rain also aids it in using its Hydro Pump off its weak Special Attack, because 270 Base Power is never really that weak with any amount of Special Attack!

Qwilphish: Swift Swim + CB Explosion makes it the fastest Exploder including Electrode. Pack this with Aqua Tail (90 x 1.5 = 135 x 1.5 = 202.5) and it can sweep fairly well. Before saying its attack is too weak, remember it's base 95 attack ties with Kingdra, so keep that in mind. Also keep in mind Qwilfish gets Destiny Bond and Swords Dance. Not too shabby moves when paired with a great ability in the Rain.

Quagsire: Has 1 purpose and 1 purpose alone... it is an Anti-Koygre. Immune to both Thunder and Water Spout makes Quagsire quite a switch in. With Max HP, it can also survive a Modest Kyogre's Ice Beam. Yawn, Encore, Roar allow it to stay in the game. Most may suggest using Yawn, Protect, Toxic, Encore/Rest and ignore attacks altogether as many Ubers are immune to EQ, and won't take much.

Electivire: Very situational, but lets not forget that Motor Drive lets it stay Lonely. Thunder/Gyro Ball (Forretress) is it's only switch in but it can still hit pretty hard off its 123 Attack, and 95 Base Attack (Thunder abuse). With Rain, use Thunder, but max Attack for any chance at dealing good damage. Life Orb is a must. Use 176 Speed Evs for outspeeding Scarf Cross or use 152 to outspeed Timid Mewtwo and the rest in Special Attack. Cross Chop is a possiblity for Blissey/Tyranitar, but you can also use Low Kick as many Ubers weight alot. (Works like Grass Knot).

Azumarill: With CB and Rain support Aqua Jet more than triples in power. 40 x 1.5 (Stab) = 60 x 1.5 (Rain)= 90 x 1.5 (CBand) = 135 Base Damage off 436 Attack. Because some movesets are illegal, I suggest this moveset so you don't have to figure out the best 1: Aqua Tail/Aqua jet/Double-Edge/Focus Punch. (Ice Punch is illegal with Aqua Jet, and Waterfall's flinch rate wont happen because Azumarill is soo slow). Have 212 HP/ 252 Attack/ 44 Speed to outspeed Blissey.

Cherrim: Groudon support makes his ability worthwhile. Smogon say he raises his Attack and Sp. Defense. I guess that doesn't include his Special Attack, if I am wrong however try a Choice Specs Set.

 

[RaikouLover]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38687

that was the thread. Oh yea, Latias doesnt wall yanmega too easily... it is still weak to Bug Buzz... which is a 2HKO I believe unless it gets a CM off.

 

[DeLorean]

Typhlosion: Cool.

Mantine: "Watch out for Stone Edge/Thunder though." Both of those will OHKO you pretty much immedietly. It's a lot of gg.

Qwilphish: This set could warrant a mention in the other options set.

Quagsire: "Has 1 purpose and 1 purpose alone... it is an Anti-Koygre."

Kyogre's gone. Now what?

Electivire: Very situational is damn right. A little too situational. Groudon walls this to the bowels of hell, and it's actually walled by kyogre; thunder is walled by that awesome special defense stat. Well, not walled, but he's still not very useful.

@RaikouLover: Bullshit that got ignored. Post it in contributions and corrections.

 

[Train Man]

Well thankfully for you, there certainly will be a increase of popularity in Ubers, now that Shoddy has implemented an Uber Ladder to climb. As for your list, here are some quick observations as well as some good additions, made by other posters:

Metagross - Just read every Uber Warstory in the Archives to see the power. Dragon/Ice resists is exceptionally handy. Explosion is pretty handy though Giratina and Dialga will laugh hard. Handy Pursuiter and STAB Meteor Mash still hits hard. Explosion and Bullet Punch are pretty nice too.
Best Latias counter, alongside TTar and Scizor.

Tyranitar - Lots of variants work, but i've found CB (Or LO for less restriction and less power) and BOAH Variants seem to be the most common. Hits Ubers' primary phys. walls Giratina and Lugia pretty hard with STAB SE Crunch but won't ever beat the two without a little hax.

Groudon, the Ultimate Bulky Ground makes a fine counter to CB Variants and does decently against BOAHs.

Heracross - Not really seen much, kinda useless as Giratina walls it harder than Gliscor. Pursuit and Scarf make it kinda usable, though bulkier pokes like the aforementioned TTar and Meta make better use of PursuitTrapping with a CB equipped.

Skarmory - Useful spiker and EQ resist. Works well on Stall Teams, but altogether, quite rare and not all that useful.

Forretress - Only good T-Spiker (Besides Drapion). Dragon resist, ice resist, though most mixed attackers carry Fire Blast for this and the above.

Weavile - Once again, i've heard of the power, but have never really seen one. Can't really imagine what would wall it besides maybe FistCeus...

Garchomp - Not really in need of a rewrite to the analysis, but this should be taken into account when Team Building. Like Rayquaza + Groudon in one fast package. Fairly bulky, fast and packs a helluva punch with Outrage.

Scizor - See Metagross. Also gets U-Turn for scouting and Roost for recovery. Often seen sporting a LO for versatility.

Jirachi - Wish Support, great typing, bulky on both sides allowing you to take the occasional Fire Blast or Thunder.

Bronzong - Same sets as standards, even better typing in Ubers.

Shedinja - Walls Palkia/Kyogre/Lugia if they don't carry Toxic. Dialga/Outraging Ray who aren't carrying FBlast. Latias/Latios/Blissey though Blissey may sometimes carry Toxic or Flamethrower.

Yanmega - Amazingly not that great. Novelty Reversaler is the only threatening one as Blissey carries more SpDef for standard sets and Dialga's fantastic typing keeps it bay. Kyogre's bulky SpDef and even phys-oriented Giratinas can handle it.

Also SR is alive and well in Ubers, reducing the threat of Rayquaza and Lugia (arguably the best sweeper and the best wall).

Quagsire/Lanturn: Best Kyogre counters. Immune to Surf/Thunder. Encore (Quagsire) is a fantastic moves in all tiers whose only weakness is pretty uncommon. Lanturn is pretty similiar though offers para support, even through Taunting (discharge).

Dugtrio - Amazing trapper. As Blisseys run less HP/Def to favour SpDef a 2HKO on most Blisseys is pretty much guaranteed. Also beats Dialga (coming in on Thunders) and Scarf/Specs Ogres locked into Thunder. Also a very unexpected Pursuiter which can work against Lati Twins.

 

[Perfection]

Ok I will warrant my qwilfish set here and post it in the analysis section titled: Ubers Qwilfish.

Qwilfish: Choice Band/Life Orb

252 Attack, 116 HP, 140 Speed (to outrun standard 136 speed Special Rain Dance Kingdra)

Adamant

-Aqua Tail/Waterfall
-Return
-Destiny Bond
-Explosion

Destiny Bond is for Ghost Giratina (who resists both of Qwil's attacks and would normally resist Poison Jab).

Alternatively you could use:

Set Name: Flail Tail
Qwilfish: @ Focus Sash/Liechi Berry

252 Attack, 116 HP, 140 Speed (outrun Special Rain Dance Kingdra)
Adamant

-Flail
-Aqua Tail
-Poison Jab
-Swords Dance/Endure

Set life to 1, and Boost your attack with either Liechi Berry or Swords Dance. Aqua Tail is for maximum damage and CHit ratio, although you could use Waterfall...

 

[RaikouLover]

Yanmega is usable in ubers, just don't expect it to rip through teams from start to finish like it does in OU. It still knocks of Darkrai, Mewtwo and Lati@ leads with consistency. Dialaga has to watch out, as HP still takes a good chunk out of the mixalga set.

I'm surprised you mentioned Garchomp Train Man. He's severly outclassed by every dragon in ubers: Ray sweeps better, Lati@ wall and sweep better and are faster, Palkia has a sexy movepool, Kingdra has gamebreaking speed, and Groudon does the ground type thing better. I'm not saying he's bad in ubers, but he's extremely less threatening than any of the other OU pokemon mentioned, and will only see use as a choice bander. The other OU pokemon have something else going for them so that they can perform just as well or better in ubers. Garchomp's routine is stale and won't cut it at the next level.

Bronzong is meh... what can he really do in ubers besides being a dragon-typed punching bag? He may not even have time to explode...

@ Xaio, my thread wasn't received well. Despite the calculations, the response was "palkia does this better (bullshit!)," or "this is good for OU, but not ubers."

 

[DeLorean]

@ Xaio, my thread wasn't received well. Despite the calculations, the response was "palkia does this better (bullshit!)," or "this is good for OU, but not ubers."

Put in a peer edit. And don't say my name, I feel like I'm going to get banned for all the edits. (perfections one was locked, I'm going to repost it, but good).

I'm going to bed, but I'll be doing more to help later. :)

 

[Toothache]

I play ubers and I always like to see it diversified some more. Actually I prefer doubles ubers (gogo JAA style), but singles is just as fun. I believe the perfections one was locked partly due to poor grammar spelling and punctuation, although the idea of the set I thought was sound. We're not trying to discourage peer edits, in fact they are endorsed, but they have to be presented well :-)

 

[Mekkah]

I locked Perfections one not because of who he was or because I hate ubers or Qwilfish. I locked it because it was done very poorly qua HTML, grammar, spelling, capitalization and everything. Don't even dare to imply that it was anything else.

That said, why post this here instead of C&C? Isn't this, you know, a project?

 

[COalex]

As a Garchomp user, I can pretty safely say that he doesn't need a separate set for Ubers; Scarfchomp tears through pretty much everything it needs to. Maybe a small mention under set comments?

I might do one of these if I have the time.

 

[Bourbon]

Toxicroak in Ubers diefinately deserves a mention. With Kryogre running all over the place, it can regain up to 18% each turn with Leftovers, or run a Life Orb while still getting health back.

A Focus Punch/Sucker Punch set with Substitute and Swords Dance could be very frightening. It could switch into Kryogre very easily thanks to water immunity, and keep dishing out pain. The main fighting type counter, Gliscor is rarely seen in Ubers so he could run amok.

 

[Rhykune]

Ninjask is a god in ubers.

There are much less Stealth Rocks and Sandstorm so Focus Sash suddenly gains a lot of viability. Hardly anyone phazes in ubers also. Set up Groundon or Ho-Oh or a bunch of other stuff with it and GG.

 

[DeLorean]

I play ubers and I always like to see it diversified some more. Actually I prefer doubles ubers (gogo JAA style), but singles is just as fun. I believe the perfections one was locked partly due to poor grammar spelling and punctuation, although the idea of the set I thought was sound. We're not trying to discourage peer edits, in fact they are endorsed, but they have to be presented well :-)

I plan for these to be presented well, done by more experienced players, and presented well.

I locked Perfections one not because of who he was or because I hate ubers or Qwilfish. I locked it because it was done very poorly qua HTML, grammar, spelling, capitalization and everything. Don't even dare to imply that it was anything else.

That said, why post this here instead of C&C? Isn't this, you know, a project?

Fair enough. I plan to repost ubers qwilfish when I have gone over it and written a fair analysis.

Could someone please move this to C&C? It will probably gain more attention by experienced players there.

 

[cim]

I've been trying an uber Hariyama as an Arceus replacement for countering T-Tar. He should probably get an analysis.

Also, Uber Garchomp seems kinda redundant with Uber Rayquaza, but people use it so I guess it should be analyzed.

Don't forget Forretress for Toxic Spikes and Ludicolo for Swift Swim.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I've been trying an uber Hariyama as an Arceus replacement for countering T-Tar. He should probably get an analysis.

Also, Uber Garchomp seems kinda redundant with Uber Rayquaza, but people use it so I guess it should be analyzed.

Don't forget Forretress for Toxic Spikes and Ludicolo for Swift Swim.

I wouldn't try to t-spike that much in ubers. You'll be dead before even trying to stall.

I just had an idea. Maybe a mixed DD Latios with Soul Dew and Dragon Dance could have some potential. This is all hypothetical, but I could see it do some serious damage after just one Dragon Dance. Draco Meteor is a way more superior dragon type move than Dragon Claw, so I think it could work.

 

[Great Sage]

I compiled a more comprehensive list of viable Ubers. Try to integrate this into the original post.

Metagross
Heatran
Shedinja
Garchomp
Tyranitar
Blissey
Exeggutor
Tangrowth
Kingdra
Bronzong
Cresselia
Dugtrio
Heracross
Ninjask
Magnezone
Skarmory
Forretress
Weavile
Scizor
Jirachi
Lapras
Drapion
Lanturn
Celebi
Ludicolo
Yanmega
Kabutops

 

[COalex]

I'd like to reserve Quagsire, if possible.

 

[linksage]

Cresselia: With Groudon Support, Moonlight can be used. (Don't say Drizzle skrews it up, because the same can be said about Sandstorm in OU, but people still opt for Moonlight sometimes).

What? People who use moonlight on cress need to get their priorities in check. Besides, with 8 pp and SO many legends with pressure, that becomes useless fast.

Except I'm pretty sure that pressure doesn't effect moonlight.

 

[DeLorean]

I would like to use this post to point out that I don't want a guide for every pokemon with swift swim and chlorophyll. If we can make a mention in all the analysis' for these cases, and maybe a reccomendation and why it's successful I personally think it will suffice. If there is a specific point and/or movepool, put it forward here.

I've been trying an uber Hariyama as an Arceus replacement for countering T-Tar. He should probably get an analysis.

Also, Uber Garchomp seems kinda redundant with Uber Rayquaza, but people use it so I guess it should be analyzed.

If you could post a movepool and small summary here for hariyama, I'll add it to the list.

Uber Garchomp is an intensly helpful discovery to ubers; While the 12 base speed points might seem strange, nay, redundant, compared to Rayquaza, Garchomp has another helpful upside with STAB Earthquake. With the increased base power, garchomp has good means of taking down metagross and other harsher sweepers.

I think it deserves a mention, no matter how slight.

I'd like to reserve Quagsire, if possible.

Consider it done. I think this is going to need a fairly in depth guide about how it counters Quagsire specifically. I'll put you in. :)

Metagross - On the List
Heatran - On the List
Shedinja - Done
Garchomp - On the List
Tyranitar - On the list
Blissey - Working on this
Exeggutor - JACA, Small Mention needed
Tangrowth -JACA, Small Mention needed
Kingdra - A guide is up
Bronzong - I'll put this on
Cresselia - I don't think this deserves anything more than a slight mention; It can work.
Dugtrio - Small Mention
Heracross - On the List
Ninjask - I'll put this on
Magnezone - I'll put this on
Skarmory - On the list
Forretress - On the list
Weavile - On the list
Scizor - On the list
Jirachi - On the list
Lapras - I'll need some proof.
Drapion - "
Lanturn - "
Celebi - "
Ludicolo - JASSA, a small mention
Yanmega - I don't think this as well as it should, a small Other Options mention?
Kabutops - JASSA, a small mention needed

I just want a little evidence, Great Sage.

Except I'm pretty sure that pressure doesn't effect moonlight.

Nice catch, forgot some stuff about pressure.

 

[Blue Kirby]

I'll post a Ubers Tyranitar peer edit when I get a spare moment.

 

[DeLorean]

I'll post a Ubers Tyranitar peer edit when I get a spare moment.

Thank you so much. :)

 

[Clash]

I'd like to see someone do an Ubers peer edit on Ludicolo. It works insanely well because of its 4x resistance to water, ground resistance and STAB Grass knot. I have tried it many times on Ubers myself and feel it should bee given attention.