A generic question:"Where did we come from?"

Now I know there's a thread centered around the whole God vs Religion thing but I find it too centered around the abrahamic monotheistic faiths to make my post. I am a theist, but I am not religious due to my beliefs in religion, but for other reasons I shall state in my post.

Well, the universe’s origin has been discovered in the form of the Big Bang Theory, which is upheld by the vast majority of scientists around the world. Scientific theory is the closest piece of rationale based on systematic thought and testing that us as humans can say we have to the actual truth in the understanding of the ways of which the laws of nature and physics work; therefore the theory that we originated from a singularity, provided it is evidenced(which it is).


With this in mind, ponder what one’s existence is. Essentially, everything from our universe’s initial cosmological evolution, the formation of solar systems, galaxies and planets to our existence today is a result of causes and effects. If one follow backwards the causal chain of our existence back to the singularity from which the universe originated, one finds themselves at the end of this chain of causes and effects; but that poses the question: what is the cause of the singularity? Surely it must be theffect of a cause, nothing can cause itself to exist. But then if the singularity is caused, what is the cause of the singularity’s cause? One could go on for a very long time doing this to no avail. Thus one must conclude that there must be a first, uncaused cause of which temporality does not apply.
This conclusion may sound absurd to many, as humans apply relative temporality in order to conceptualize various premises they come across in day-to-day life. An alternative conclusion one may offer is that the universe is the first cause of our existence. The problem is that despite that seeming to be a rational argument, it begs the question: How can the universe cause itself when it is bound in temporality?


One may think after reading this, that I am religious for these reasons. This is not neccesarily true as I only identify this cause as that; a cause. Not a being with infinite potential, not an all-merciful, all-just and benificient creator of mankind. My only claim to knowledge with regards to the cause is it is just a cause not bound within time, matter and space as it is what caused these very things itself! To apply relative attributes to the cause is indeed, absurd. Despite this, I am a theist. I just don’t worship this cause, I don’t give a name to this cause unless I feel like doing so. But I am religious, and I shall give the reasons why later on in this text.


This may cause a bit of confusion with one reading this. Allow me to clarify; I believe that this postulated prenatural being exists, but I do not believe that this being has sent scripture to earth in order for us to live are lives according to. This is not because I think it is absurd to believe that, but my thinking hits a wall when thinking in terms of religion as it begs the question: “How do you prove that this scripture came from this immaterial being?” One cannot conclusively prove that it does, nor can one prove it does not as there are concepts in some scriptures(the Qur’an for example) which present scientific premises not discovered until thousands of years after the scripture came into light(namely, the universe’s expansion) which cannot be ignored.


In light of all of this, I am religious. Why? I was thinking one day and I thought to myself, “What is the harm in taking this being and living in accord with the rules of a religion?”. So I drew a table with all the possibilites of living life in accord with a religion against whether God existed in accord with the religion or not. This table shows a better advantage of living a life religiously, since if God exists in accord with the religion, I go to heaven and if he doesn’t, I rot. I have no way of knowing which is true, the only claim to knowledge I shall have is that there is a First Cause. I did this table without knowledge of Pascal’s Wager, which posed a similar premise. Which religion do I attribute myself with? The one of my parents; Islam. For convenience and I rolled a dice with 6 major religions and got it anyways.
 

Caelum

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By invoking causality, you are inherently implying the existence of time prior to the existence of space. However, time and space are inseparable entities and so the notion of what happened before the Big Bang isn't an answerable question in the traditional sense. If there didn't exist time, the question of "what happened before?" clearly becomes a meaningless question.

The idea of "cause and effect" is so ingrained in our minds based on everyday experiences it becomes incredulously difficult to imagine a universe without it. However, in the quantum realm, the laws of "cause and effect" can, counter-intuitively, be suspended. In the quantum realm, things do occur spontanouesly for no particular reason. Granted, an entire universe is quite different than just some virtual particle; however, the precedent exists from there and when a complete theory of quantum gravity is devised there will be more answers to that experience.

I find this question curious as an argument for god, since it can be equally applied to god. If the universe is required to have "a cause" - what exactly caused god and what caused that etc.? If god is exempt from this standard, than so should a logical explanation of our universe.
 
honestly, we do not have the information to argue casuality, farther than we can see or describe it. this continuous arguing of the origin of the universe does nothing but stroke our own need for understanding, but leaves us with intellectual blue balls.
if you want to find the answer you are looking for, then go out and find new pieces of data that can be used to postulate a new theory, or that can confirm or deny an existing one. for at the moment, we do not have the ability to give you a satisfactory answer.
 
By invoking causality, you are inherently implying the existence of time prior to the existence of space. However, time and space are inseparable entities and so the notion of what happened before the Big Bang isn't an answerable question in the traditional sense. If there didn't exist time, the question of "what happened before?" clearly becomes a meaningless question.
How is this implying the existence of time prior to the existence of space? The use of the term "before" is in the context of the causal chain and is not talking in the context of time nor space, as they are indeed are inseperable entities.
The idea of "cause and effect" is so ingrained in our minds based on everyday experiences it becomes incredulously difficult to imagine a universe without it. However, in the quantum realm, the laws of "cause and effect" can, counter-intuitively, be suspended. In the quantum realm, things do occur spontanouesly for no particular reason. Granted, an entire universe is quite different than just some virtual particle; however, the precedent exists from there and when a complete theory of quantum gravity is devised there will be more answers to that experience.

I find this question curious as an argument for god, since it can be equally applied to god. If the universe is required to have "a cause" - what exactly caused god and what caused that etc.? If god is exempt from this standard, than so should a logical explanation of our universe.
By using this very precedant you have further strengthened my argument that there has to be a first cause to our universe. The spontaneous occurences of virtual particles within the quantum realm, by your logic(please excuse my ignorance, I am not familiar with the particulars on quantum physics) are not caused by anything else, because the very fact they are spontaneous implies that they ex nihilo, out of nothing. This is counter-intuitive I agree, but so is the notion of an immaterial being outside of this universe from which we cannot apply temporal concepts. When a complete theory of quantum gravity, or any other scientific theory can conclusively falsify what argument I have of the First Cause; then I assure you I shall be rid of my current ideas. The notion of an immaterial being is a leap of faith, I admit; but the outright denial of this First Cause being an immaterial being outside of temporality is just as much a leap of faith as one cannot conclusively falsify it(unless you're going to, which you are free to do).

honestly, we do not have the information to argue casuality, farther than we can see or describe it. this continuous arguing of the origin of the universe does nothing but stroke our own need for understanding, but leaves us with intellectual blue balls.
if you want to find the answer you are looking for, then go out and find new pieces of data that can be used to postulate a new theory, or that can confirm or deny an existing one. for at the moment, we do not have the ability to give you a satisfactory answer.
I prefer to see this as a nice exercise, I agree that our intellect and deduction from the data we have now leaves us inherently limited, but it does not stop us from arguing philosophically with the data we have now on the concepts presented in this topic.
 
so, the use of a precedent that casuality may be thrown out the window gives proof to casuality. as a buddhist, i don't know if that intrigues me or annoys me...
okay, lets assume that there was a "beginning." unfortunately for us, this event would have happened before the postulated big bang, thus making it near impossible for us to understand this event. in other words, until you can somehow duplicate the big bang, as to derive the cause of the event, there is no reason to argue this...

also,
faith:belief without cause or proof

we do not have to conclusively falsify anything you believe in, but that doesn't mean that you were, are or ever shall be right about a divine being. but then again, the same may be said for those that speak against a divine being.
 
With this in mind, ponder what one’s existence is. Essentially, everything from our universe’s initial cosmological evolution, the formation of solar systems, galaxies and planets to our existence today is a result of causes and effects. If one follow backwards the causal chain of our existence back to the singularity from which the universe originated, one finds themselves at the end of this chain of causes and effects; but that poses the question: what is the cause of the singularity? Surely it must be theffect of a cause, nothing can cause itself to exist. But then if the singularity is caused, what is the cause of the singularity’s cause? One could go on for a very long time doing this to no avail. Thus one must conclude that there must be a first, uncaused cause of which temporality does not apply.
All causality means (roughly speaking) is that our universe is modeled in such a way that its state at a time t may be calculated from its state at time t-1 using a certain function (the laws of physics). Causality is a mere artifact of how we understand the world - when taken as a general rule as you are doing, it is terribly misleading because as soon as you leave the natural, "temporal" realm causality ceases making sense.

In most dynamical systems, there exist configurations called "garden of Eden" configurations. Such a configuration (let's call it x) is such that there does not exist any configuration y such that f(y) = x. These configurations are "uncaused causes" by necessity, because you can't find any possible predecessors to them under the model. To ask for a cause to them is begging the question - since the only reason we accept causality is that for most configurations we can find a unique predecessor (which we call "cause"), why would a configuration with no predecessors at all be subject to causality? It cannot be an effect of anything by any conventional definition of cause and effect.

This conclusion may sound absurd to many, as humans apply relative temporality in order to conceptualize various premises they come across in day-to-day life. An alternative conclusion one may offer is that the universe is the first cause of our existence. The problem is that despite that seeming to be a rational argument, it begs the question: How can the universe cause itself when it is bound in temporality?
The universe is not "bound" in temporality. It contains temporality. The universe can be seen as just being a large 4D "block" just sitting there while we "move" along three axes of space and one axis of time. Also note that just as everything we know of has a cause, every single cause we know of is contained within the universe and the relationship between every single cause and effect we know of works through the laws of physics. When you ask for a cause for the universe, you have to break one of these two trends: you either have to accept that the universe as a whole is uncaused or accept that it has a "cause" outside of it that operates through a different set of laws than everything else (and then wonder what the fuck it is, how "it" made the universe, etc.) In fact, it is not clear at all what cause and effect even mean outside of the universe. Occam's razor should make the choice very, very clear.

My only claim to knowledge with regards to the cause is it is just a cause not bound within time, matter and space as it is what caused these very things itself!
Did it never occur to you that in order for x to cause y, there had to be two ordered configurations, one where x exists and y does not, and one where y exists? And hence that there is a logical requirement for both cause and effect to be bound to time? It is impossible for anything to "cause" a timeline without being bound themselves to another timeline. It just isn't possible at all because such an action would necessarily violate the very definition of the words used to describe it!

In light of all of this, I am religious. Why? I was thinking one day and I thought to myself, “What is the harm in taking this being and living in accord with the rules of a religion?”. So I drew a table with all the possibilites of living life in accord with a religion against whether God existed in accord with the religion or not. This table shows a better advantage of living a life religiously, since if God exists in accord with the religion, I go to heaven and if he doesn’t, I rot. I have no way of knowing which is true, the only claim to knowledge I shall have is that there is a First Cause. I did this table without knowledge of Pascal’s Wager, which posed a similar premise. Which religion do I attribute myself with? The one of my parents; Islam. For convenience and I rolled a dice with 6 major religions and got it anyways.
You should have looked up answers to Pascal's Wager, because that wager has been thoroughly demolished. Here are some ways it can go wrong:

- God exists in accord with another religion: hell
- God exists in accord with the religion you choose, but places other requirements that you fail to meet: hell
- God exists in accord with the religion you choose, but doesn't think you believe for the right reasons: hell
- God rewards atheists and punishes all religious people: hell
- God rewards some completely arbitrary thing that you didn't do and punishes everyone else: hell
- God loves irony: hell

If God never shows himself, he can't expect truly rational people to believe that he exists (unless he's a dumbass). If God rewards critical thinkers (which is not far-fetched because they are the people he'd have the most fun talking with), then God would reward atheists. And if he loves irony... what do you think he'll do with you?

As a matter of fact, regardless of what you believe and regardless of how you live your life, you can imagine many Gods that will send you to hell, many others that will send you to heaven and many others that won't do anything. There exists no evidence whatsoever that would allow you to know which scenario is more probable (mainstream religions would pop up and would say the same things regardless of whether they are right or not, so they do not help your choice). Hence, at all times, you should assume that what you are doing is irrelevant to your afterlife.
 

Altmer

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ultimate boeing 747 gambit hates you. you can't postulate something more improbable than itself to cause the universe. if god created the universe, then what created God? etc. etc.
 
the universe’s origin has been discovered in the form of the Big Bang Theory
^This is the only thing you said that I have a problem with.

First off, the universe's origin has not been discovered. We have a theory about its creation.

Yes, most scientists agree on this theory because it has been the only plausible one and backed up with huge amounts of evidence.

Recently however, String/M Theory has also provided an equally plausible scenario of two membranes colliding in 11th dimensional space*, and that collision generated the matter/energy (Big Bang) inside our membrane(Universe), thus eliminating the singularity and all the bizarre/impossible physics that come with it.

The data we have gathered on the early universe supports both theories, but slightly on the side of String/M theory and we are still left with the question of "What created the membranes," but it dose eliminate the No Time/Space, causality, and singularity problems.



*Yes, I know how that sounds but look it up, if you have an open mind you'll find it interesting.
 
Not reading the whole thread but one hypothesis is that due to quantum uncertainty, a singularity "appeared" and had so much energy in it (approx. the amount gained by burning 1 gallon of gas), it caused the big bang as it reached absolutely enormous temperatures due to the singular volume.
 
the big bang does not imply or assert an origin of matter for the universe or creation at all.

it is merely the furthest back we can theorize given the evidence obtained from stellar movement.


regardless of the fact that it cannot be fully proven, it does not make any claim as to what happened before or even during the time in which our universe was a singularity of infinite density (ie. how it got there or why it was so densely compacted in on itself).
 

Altmer

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Much in the same way non religious people have held the theory of time, that it has been in existence forever.
that doesn't really mean anything considering it's time. you're just saying time is time, it's supposed to last forever cos its time
 
For all the atheist big bang people. Ok great you can think all of this out and try to make logical explanations, but the fact is that you will never know. It happened millions of year before you were even thought of. Even if you're right what's that going to do for you when you all die?

Why don't you focus on what's happening to you in life now? Even for those who get all the intelligence and possesions this world has to offer, their lives are still flawed and incomplete. Theirs something about all of humanity that is flawed. Why do most all the famous people go too far with what they have and mess their lives up? They are looking for more.

As for me it's Jesus Christ who fills that. Living for him gives you the best possible life you can have. It has at least for me. And I will be open minded and say you all have a chance of being right. If you're right in a hundred years we're all dead and gone anyway but my life was better, complete. If i'm right which I am my life was better and my future is a bit better also.
 
i don't know if you are religious, or just pulling a rather elegant troll.

the point of this thread was to debate the concept of a beginning, not whether religion is needed in one's life. thus, the end of your post was, and is, unnecessary.

though i do agree on the uselessness of even trying to figure out the creation of the universe.
 

Altmer

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God is viewed in much the same light.
the difference time is a part of the universe and God is pretty much reckoned to be outside it if he created the universe. if God is the universe, then why not call it the universe?
 
The more we understand about our past, the more we can apply it to our present and future. If it turns out the universe will stop expanding and collapse upon itself again, yes we'd like to know that someday. If we can understand how all the matter in the universe was created, or what incredible force caused it to expand at the ridiculous rate that it is and has been, that'd be useful information too.

Aside from that, humans are just curious. Even if we gain nothing from knowing our universe's origin, most people would still rather know it than not know it.
 
the difference time is a part of the universe and God is pretty much reckoned to be outside it if he created the universe. if God is the universe, then why not call it the universe?
The difference between religion (Abrahamic religions specifically) and non religion, essentially. If you view that time is part of the universe, then time must've been created with the Big Bang
 

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