A View of Sandslash: Is it a superior choice to Donphan?

After reading this thread, are you inclined to try out Sandslash?

  • Yes, I wish to see if it works as said.

    Votes: 61 48.8%
  • No, I don't trust you. Donphan for life.

    Votes: 13 10.4%
  • I'm not a fan of either, I think I'll go without a spinner or use something else.

    Votes: 51 40.8%

  • Total voters
    125


Sandslash is a poke oft overlooked when looking for a Rapid Spinning pokemon. After all, is it not just Donphan with slightly worse Hit Points, Attack and Defense? And indeed, simply looking at the stats the logical conclusion is to go with our rolling tapir Donphan, since Sandslash only has an advantage in speed (Though this is a key feature that must not be underestimated). And indeed, if you're just looking to spin, spin, spin to your hearts content and don't really care about anything else, by all means pick Donphan.

However, once you go past Base Stat Zone and enter Movepool Arena and Ability Colosseum is where Sandslash truly begins to shine and outclass Donphan. For starters, let us compare their prospective abilities:

Sandslash: Sand Veil versus Donphan: Sturdy

This is not even a matter of opinion at this point. One hit knockout moves are banned in today's standard metagame, thus rendering Donphan's ability to block these utterly useless. It's the equivalent of Donphan keeping Phanpy's Pick Up ability. Sandslash, on the other hand, has what some people call the best ability in the game, possibly rivaled only by Intimidate. Sand Veil, as all who have encountered a Garchomp or a Gliscor know, makes 100% accurate moves become 80% accurate in a sandstorm, 90 becomes 72 and so on. With Sand being common as it is (Hippowdon and Tyranitar are everywhere nowadays, but you'll probably want to refrain from using Hippo with Sandslash, since there's some redundancy) this ability can mean the difference between a loss and win. And, when you think about the argument that Donphan takes hits better, isn't avoiding a hit much better? So, to sum it up, there's no contest, Sandslash wins.

The movepools and movesets of each are diverse enough, with standard Donphan running something like:

Donphan @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 Def/6 Atk Impish
Earthquake
Ice Shard
Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock

And that's pretty good, if all you want to do is lay down some rocks in peace. However, there's one VERY crucial difference in their movepools, and that is the move Swords Dance. Swords Dance increases Sandslash's Base 100 Attack stat to much higher proportions, easily beating out Donphan's base 120. And while Donphan is a sitting duck to every form of set up in the game, Sandslash is a ...standing shrew...being able to Swords Dance up and hit them with a STAB Earthquake or a Stone Edge ,all while retaining a spot for that coveted move Rapid Spin. The set I found best in OU was:

Sandslash @ Leftovers (Though Brightpowder is an option)
252 HP/252 Defense/4 Atk Impish
Swords Dance
Earthquake
Stone Edge (X-Scissor is a definite option for Celery, er, Celebi and Night Slash is a reliable way to hit Mismagius and Gengar)
Rapid Spin

A perfect blend of utility and offense that actually does something in matches. Too often had I used Donphan only to find it completely stopped by Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong and even Blissey. Yes, a special wall could come in, OUTSPEED ME, then proceed to 2HKO me, all while recovering HP in the process. Without Ice Beam, it still wins out. Sandslash on the other hand beats Blissey soundly with SD and an increase in speed. Sandslash is also much better to have as a last pokemon, since Donphan'll pretty much always lose unless their last pokemon is Foretress. Donphan also has no real way of killing Gengar before it kills him, since Ice Shard does a paltry 25% or so, and Gengar blocks your spin attempts. Not so with Sandslash, whose ability to SD makes him much harder to stop and Night Slash/Stone Edge easily OHKO both Gengar and Mismagius after an SD (It's also nice to note than Gengar's Hypnosis and Mismagius's Will-o-wisp have horrible accuracy in Sandstorm, and that's always a plus). Do note that you Sandslash does not get Ice Shard, which is a selling point of Donphan, being able to hit the dragons first and hard.

Coming back to Base Stats, to my recollection there is not much that Donphan walls that Sandslash does not, but the +15 Speed of Sandslash allows it to beat Blissey, no speed Tyranitar, no speed Magnezone and make it tie with Scizor! The attack difference between Donphan Swords dance covers, so all that's left are some HP/Defense and 5 Base Sp. Def points. Negligible after all of Sandslash's benefits. HOWEVER: It should be recognized that Donphan is still the superior force when it comes to base stats, and can EV himself to beat out 252 HP/252 Def Impish Sandslash with a 132 HP / 172 Def / 206 speed spread. That spread allows it to have better or equal stats to Sandslash in every category, though it still pales overall due to the movepool and ability discrepancies. It should also be noted that Sandslash is lighter than Donphan, so Grass Knot and Low Kick are 60 BP on Sandslash versus 100 on Donphan.

For reference, enjoy an assortment of damage calculations:, just so you know what to feel safe switching in on (20% evasion can only take you so far, right?). Assume 252 HP/252 Defense Sandslash and assume max EVs for the attacker. I'm just going with what nature I see the most and such:
Jolly Garchomp Dragon Claw 25.42% - 29.94%
Jolly Weavile Ice Punch 45.48% - 53.39%
Ice Shard from same Weavile 24.86% - 29.38%
Adamant Electivire Ice Punch 33.62% - 39.55%
Adamant Staraptor Brave Bird 33.62% - 39.55%
Adamant Heracross Close Combat or Megahorn: 40.40% - 47.46%
CB Dugtrio Adamant Earthquake: 37.57% - 44.07% (Hahahahaha)
1 DD Adamant Gyarados Waterfall: 80.79% - 95.20%
1 SD Guts Activated Ursaring Facade: 144.07% - 169.49%. But then again, what non-steel/rock/ghost type lives through this?
1 SD Jolly Infernape Flare Blitz: 64.41% - 75.71%
+6 Sp. Atk Modest Mewtwo Thunder: 0%-0% (Aren't I funny?)
CBTar Adamant Stone Edge: 26.55% - 31.07%, Crunch: 42.66% - 50.00%

There's most of the main attacks I could think of.





I hope I presented the case well enough to make you consider Sandslash over Donphan the next time you need a spinner. Isn't it peculiar that Sandslash is UU while Donphan is OU? Well, I hope you try the set out and post how it worked for you when you replaced Donphan here.

-Light
 
Seems cool, I'd never think to use Sandslash > Donphan. But it just seems like Donphan can take all around hits much better, with even a higher base SpD.

The sword dancing set is excellent, and its also cool to see how Grassknot does much less to Sandslash than Donphan.

Cool analysis Light, i'm going to try this out ^^
 
Using either of the two as a spinner is just asking for trouble since they're absolutely destroyed by Toxic Spikes... unless you have a AT Bliss or something (do people still use those?)

And of course Garchomp is much better at the whole sweeping thing than Sandslash. I guess this set has some value over Donphan at least but Donphan isn't really that good anyway.
 

Lee

@ Thick Club
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Coming back to Base Stats, to my recollection there is not much that Donphan walls that Sandslash does not, but the +15 Speed of Sandslash allows it to beat Blissey, no speed Tyranitar, no speed Magnezone and make it tie with Scizor!
Sandslash's speed advantage does NOT compensate for his lower HP, Atk and Def. The EV spread that you listed (4/252/252) would end up producing these stats for Sandslash:

HP: 354
Atk: 236
Def: 350
SpD: 146
Speed: 166

Donphan can surpass that in every aspect if he chose to. For example (and this is merely a gimmicky EV spread to demonstrate his superiority), but 132 HP / 172 Def / 206 speed would leave Donphan with the following stats:

HP: 354
Atk: 276
Def: 350
SpD: 156
Speed: 187

So that's superior or equal to 'Slash in every way including speed.

Your other arguments are completely valid though, but I think you've missed out one key advantage; the standard Donphan set does fuck all to any Gengar's that block his Rapid Spin attempts. However, Sandslash learns Night Slash which rips chunks out of any Ghost brave enough to block his attempts. Swords Dance also aids him in his Spinning by allowing him to stat-up and blow away and Dusknoir/Spiritomb that lacks Will-o-Wisp for whatever reason. For those reasons, it seems he may be slightly more effective as a spinner. Good analysis.
 
Sandslash's speed advantage does NOT compensate for his lower HP, Atk and Def. The EV spread that you listed (4/252/252) would end up producing these stats for Sandslash:

HP: 354
Atk: 236
Def: 350
SpD: 146
Speed: 166

Donphan can surpass that in every aspect if he chose to. For example (and this is merely a gimmicky EV spread to demonstrate his superiority), but 132 HP / 172 Def / 206 speed would leave Donphan with the following stats:

HP: 354
Atk: 276
Def: 350
SpD: 156
Speed: 187

So that's superior or equal to 'Slash in every way including speed.

Your other arguments are completely valid though, but I think you've missed out one key advantage; the standard Donphan set does fuck all to any Gengar's that block his Rapid Spin attempts. However, Sandslash learns Night Slash which rips chunks out of any Ghost brave enough to block his attempts. Swords Dance also aids him in his Spinning by allowing him to stat-up and blow away and Dusknoir/Spiritomb that lacks Will-o-Wisp for whatever reason. For those reasons, it seems he may be slightly more effective as a spinner. Good analysis.
Yes, it slipped my mind that Donphan can be easily EVed to have some speed. It's all been added in there, thank you.

And as for the Toxic Spikes, yes, it is a bother, but you can always pack a poison type, or some form of aromatherapy or heal bell. Worst case scenario just bring in Sandslash on the first layer. Kinda makes your walling ability worse, but at least it's just regular poison.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
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Seems like something worth trying, although I don't like Donphan much anyway. Having said that I don't really think Sandslash will work, lack of recovery and speed means SDing is hard, whilst its defensive capabilities aren't amazing. I prefer Gliscor as a defensive SDer due to roost, better defenses and speed.
 
Seems like something worth trying, although I don't like Donphan much anyway. Having said that I don't really think Sandslash will work, lack of recovery and speed means SDing is hard, whilst its defensive capabilities aren't amazing. I prefer Gliscor as a defensive SDer due to roost, better defenses and speed.
Yeah, Gliscor is probably a better option, since Sandslash's 5 Base Attack is pretty small compared to Gliscor's speed, better defense, etc. It's just that Rapid Spin makes for a great team player, and is a move that very few pokemon gets, even fewer of those being any good (Delibird, anyone?).
 

obi

formerly david stone
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Your other arguments are completely valid though, but I think you've missed out one key advantage; the standard Donphan set does fuck all to any Gengar's that block his Rapid Spin attempts.
Donphan could easily use Stone Edge, for example, for an easy 2HKO on Gengar without any Attack EVs. If we're considering Stone Edge on Sandslash, it seems only fair to consider it on Donphan, too. Earthquake is stronger than Night Slash on any Grounded Ghost, anyway, and Mismagius is almost never used (as a spin blocker). Note that Sandslash's Night Slash 2HKOs Gengar as well, meaning it's identical to a Stone Edge Donphan.

If you really want to give a big "screw you" to Sandslash, consider that Donphan has what I believe to be a better choice: Assurance. Lay down Stealth Rock and you now have a 100 base power Dark move when they switch in (50 power otherwise). When you consider that the targets of Assurance / Night Slash are only going to be nailed on the switch (neither one is staying in on Gengar, Celebi, Starmie, etc.), this is basically a 100 power move, provided you have Stealth Rock down. Give it 52 Attack EVs and you have a guaranteed OHKO on Gengar (when you factor in Stealth Rock). Sandslash can't do that.

Sand Veil, as all who have encountered a Garchomp or a Gliscor know, makes 100% accurate moves become 80% accurate in a sandstorm, 90 becomes 70 and so on.
90% accurate moves become 72% accurate with Sand Veil.
 

TAY

You and I Know
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While Sandslash definitely fills a different niche than Donphan, and would be more or less suitable depending on the team, I believe an additional comparison is needed. Most teams are no longer running a rapid spinner at all (though I must admit this is likely due to the lack of quality rapid spinners), and if you drop rapid spin from the set, Sandslash is worse than Garchomp in literally every way--Garchomp's base 108 HP makes up for his slightly lower defense (chomp ranks higher on dragontamer's defense tiers), and Garchomp obviously has significantly higher stats than Sandslash in every other area, not to mention it's less predictable and has fewer weaknesses and more resists.

I know when BK used sandslash last night he almost never used rapid spin (if at all, i don't remember it happening tbh). So I think that the question is not, "is it better than donphan," but, "is it better than Garchomp?" --TAY

EDIT: Neglecting rapid spin, Gliscor is a lot better at well.
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

Triple Threat
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One hit knockout moves are banned with all selfrespecting battlers, thus rendering Donphan's ability to block these utterly useless.
I'm a big fan of any thread that supports Sandslash usage, but I thought this was a needless bit of editorializing. It wasn't so long ago that no 'self-respecting' battler played in an environment that allowed Wobbuffet. It seems to me that OHKO moves are banned because they're unpopular, not because they're unbalanced. They add an element of randomness to the game that many players find undesirable, but this randomness evens out over a large number of matches and OHKO moves are a very good way to take out walls that don't have the Sturdy ability (including Wobbuffet). This is a simplistic example, but banning them is a bit like nerfing paper in rock-paper-scissors, causing many players to use much beefier scissors in order to overcome rock through sheer power.

Sorry for the tangent. I'll get back on topic. As much as I love Sandslash, I'd be hard-pressed to choose it over Donphan in any tier that has Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite running around; Ice Shard's too good to pass up.
 
Sand Veil is the only reason I would use this over Donphan and IMO that isn't enough for me to use it. X-Scissor is a nice trick that will catch Celebi off guard though, I like that. If it learned U-Turn I probably would give it a shot. And for what its worth it learns Focus Punch.
 

Syberia

[custom user title]
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I'm a big fan of any thread that supports Sandslash usage, but I thought this was a needless bit of editorializing. It wasn't so long ago that no 'self-respecting' battler played in an environment that allowed Wobbuffet. It seems to me that OHKO moves are banned because they're unpopular, not because they're unbalanced. They add an element of randomness to the game that many players find undesirable, but this randomness evens out over a large number of matches and OHKO moves are a very good way to take out walls that don't have the Sturdy ability (including Wobbuffet). This is a simplistic example, but banning them is a bit like nerfing paper in rock-paper-scissors, causing many players to use much beefier scissors in order to overcome rock through sheer power.

Sorry for the tangent. I'll get back on topic. As much as I love Sandslash, I'd be hard-pressed to choose it over Donphan in any tier that has Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite running around; Ice Shard's too good to pass up.
This is a debate for an entirely different thread, although I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you just said in your first paragraph.

If you want a spinner, Forretress and Starmie (and even Tentacruel) make better choices than Sandslash or Donphan. If you want a defensive Swords Dancer, Gliscor is a much better option. Especially considering that it has access to Roost, Taunt, and can come within 2 points of tying Sandslash's max speed stat with NO EVs.

And Donphan will always have one thing that Sandslash does not - Ice Shard.
 
Donphan could easily use Stone Edge, for example, for an easy 2HKO on Gengar without any Attack EVs. If we're considering Stone Edge on Sandslash, it seems only fair to consider it on Donphan, too. Earthquake is stronger than Night Slash on any Grounded Ghost, anyway, and Mismagius is almost never used (as a spin blocker). Note that Sandslash's Night Slash 2HKOs Gengar as well, meaning it's identical to a Stone Edge Donphan.

If you really want to give a big "screw you" to Sandslash, consider that Donphan has what I believe to be a better choice: Assurance. Lay down Stealth Rock and you now have a 100 base power Dark move when they switch in (50 power otherwise). When you consider that the targets of Assurance / Night Slash are only going to be nailed on the switch (neither one is staying in on Gengar, Celebi, Starmie, etc.), this is basically a 100 power move, provided you have Stealth Rock down. Give it 52 Attack EVs and you have a guaranteed OHKO on Gengar (when you factor in Stealth Rock). Sandslash can't do that.



90% accurate moves become 72% accurate with Sand Veil.
To be fair though, Night Slash is a more powerful option for when you don't have Assurance or Stealth Rock up, and who knows, they may also have a Spinner. Sandslash also has Fling and Iron Ball, for the OHKO always on Gengar and Mismagius.

But I do understand the usefulness of Assurance, and how it can replace something on Donphan. Still, the usefulness of Swords Dance can't be stressed enough.

And I'll fix the tidbit about accuracy.

And TAY, it's quite simple that Garchomp, Gliscor etc are better attackers/walls than Sandslash, but Rapid Spin is such a rare and good move that it's more than enough for you to chose sandslash.
 

TheMaskedNitpicker

Triple Threat
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This is a debate for an entirely different thread...
You're right about that. However, I'm not about to start a thread about that without written permission from the mods. Nor is it my intention to hijack Light's Sandslash thread. So I'll just apologize again for my off-topic comments and let the subject of OHKO moves drop.
 
While Sandslash definitely fills a different niche than Donphan, and would be more or less suitable depending on the team, I believe an additional comparison is needed. Most teams are no longer running a rapid spinner at all (though I must admit this is likely due to the lack of quality rapid spinners), and if you drop rapid spin from the set, Sandslash is worse than Garchomp in literally every way--Garchomp's base 108 HP makes up for his slightly lower defense (chomp ranks higher on dragontamer's defense tiers), and Garchomp obviously has significantly higher stats than Sandslash in every other area, not to mention it's less predictable and has fewer weaknesses and more resists.

I know when BK used sandslash last night he almost never used rapid spin (if at all, i don't remember it happening tbh). So I think that the question is not, "is it better than donphan," but, "is it better than Garchomp?" --TAY

EDIT: Neglecting rapid spin, Gliscor is a lot better at well.
Sounds exactly like what I said on shoddy last night.
 
I'm a big fan of any thread that supports Sandslash usage, but I thought this was a needless bit of editorializing. It wasn't so long ago that no 'self-respecting' battler played in an environment that allowed Wobbuffet. It seems to me that OHKO moves are banned because they're unpopular, not because they're unbalanced. They add an element of randomness to the game that many players find undesirable, but this randomness evens out over a large number of matches and OHKO moves are a very good way to take out walls that don't have the Sturdy ability (including Wobbuffet). This is a simplistic example, but banning them is a bit like nerfing paper in rock-paper-scissors, causing many players to use much beefier scissors in order to overcome rock through sheer power.

Sorry for the tangent. I'll get back on topic. As much as I love Sandslash, I'd be hard-pressed to choose it over Donphan in any tier that has Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite running around; Ice Shard's too good to pass up.
That was pretty poor wording on my part, what I should have stuck with should have been "As OHKO moves are banned in the current metagame...". And as far as the Dragons go, Ice Shard still is fairly weak, only really good for finishing them off. It is still a good move, however, and gives Donphan something to actually hurt Gliscor with as it lacks SD. (Not that you're beating Gliscor with Roost, but whatever)

If you want a spinner, Forretress and Starmie (and even Tentacruel) make better choices than Sandslash or Donphan. If you want a defensive Swords Dancer, Gliscor is a much better option. Especially considering that it has access to Roost, Taunt, and can come within 2 points of tying Sandslash's max speed stat with NO EVs.

And Donphan will always have one thing that Sandslash does not - Ice Shard.
Yeah, but the thing is that Sandslash combines those two options into one package, saving yourself team space.

Sand Veil is the only reason I would use this over Donphan and IMO that isn't enough for me to use it. X-Scissor is a nice trick that will catch Celebi off guard though, I like that. If it learned U-Turn I probably would give it a shot. And for what its worth it learns Focus Punch.
Focus Punch is alright, but you're better of SDing and hitting Blissey with EQ. And I recommend you still give it a shot, it has unexpected results.
 
I've been testing a 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Att Sandslash, and it works pretty much like Donphan mini minus one thing:

Swords Dance

It really is the only positive thing about Sandslash, but it does help. I've caught a number of people off guard by surviving random things (I've survived Celebi Grass Knots) and proceeded to OHKO something (assuming I Swords Danced on the switch).

On the note of Grass Knot: Sandslash is much lighter, which makes the randomly surviving Grass Knots possible despite having worse SpDef and HP then Donphan.

I wouldn't mind Ice Shard though.
 

obi

formerly david stone
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You're right about that. However, I'm not about to start a thread about that without written permission from the mods. Nor is it my intention to hijack Light's Sandslash thread. So I'll just apologize again for my off-topic comments and let the subject of OHKO moves drop.
You could just make a new thread on OHKOs. That's a debate I don't think has ever been seriously discussed in DP. I know AA brought it up in the really early stages, but most people didn't really "take it seriously" enough to comment.
 
Could we have some damage calcs for slash taking physical hits please?

This sounds good though. the defenses look pretty solid. Nice work Light!
 
Sandslash's speed advantage does NOT compensate for his lower HP, Atk and Def. The EV spread that you listed (4/252/252) would end up producing these stats for Sandslash:

HP: 354
Atk: 236
Def: 350
SpD: 146
Speed: 166

Donphan can surpass that in every aspect if he chose to. For example (and this is merely a gimmicky EV spread to demonstrate his superiority), but 132 HP / 172 Def / 206 speed would leave Donphan with the following stats:

HP: 354
Atk: 276
Def: 350
SpD: 156
Speed: 187
HAHAHAHAHA. Well I guess since Sandslash has Swords Dance it makes it cool. Its to bad it can't SD then Ice Shard thought that would kick ass.

But your talking about using Sandslash and compromising these stats

-15/-20/-10/-15/-5/+15

And the speed can just be made up by Evs. I would only consider using the slash on a sandstorm team after possibly passing some speed to it from Gliscor to sweep after an SD. Would it work in OU, kinda. UU, yes.
 
Took a bit, but the calcs have all been added. And Ambitions, the whole purpose of the set here isn't to sweep with speed passed, but to be a utility spinner pokemon with the ability to fight back. Donphan is just screwed if it's him versus last poke *anything*.
 
That's understating things a bit I think. Donphan is no garchomp, but STAB'd EQs off a 120 base attack is nothing to sneer at either.
 
the whole purpose of the set here isn't to sweep with speed passed, but to be a utility spinner pokemon with the ability to fight back.
Cool, I'm just saying how I think I would use it, which is allowed hahaha. Any way, I guess Sandslash does kinda have a cool move pool. But no priority move! Thats what makes Donphan so much more appealing. It scares the pants off of those dragons.

And I mean those ev spreads say alot......

A good discussion non the less.
 

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