Pokémon Absol

[Ultimathunder]

Anyway, enough of that....

Is there a reason pursuit is not on any of the sets?

I feel like Mega Absol is a fantastic offensive user of pursuit, and can check many psychic and ghost types, and really many pokemon that are known for using status moves. I feel like Absol even has the slot for it considering how good coverage dark/fairy has.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Pursuit works on an all-out attacker set, which I will be adding to the OP. I'd have added it sooner, but college/procrastination/lazy.

 

[LordRandomness]

thank you jesus this is competitive battling and people are trying to build a set based entirely on luck, hence the name super luck. Even if it is somewhat viable do u really wanna be that guy who relies on crits to win. Sure ur increasing ur chances using some stupid A** item and the ability but for real thats lame af.

Okay, you do realize we were talking about a 100% crit rate, right? That's not luck in the slightest. You get a critical every attack. It's just a power boost with some added benefits.

Ok I highly doubt Absol will be tiered differently than Mega Absol, considering you have to use the base forme on your team in order to be able to to use its Mega evolution, and the base forme is what would be counted in the usage stats. Anyway, as I said, under no circumstances should such a gimmicky set like Scope Lens be used over Absol's far superior Mega evolution in any tier where both are available.

The only time I can see base Absol seeing use in any tier is if, say, Absol ends up in UU with Absolite allowed. Then Absolite gets banned from UU. Absol would probably drop a tier while Absolite would be permitted only in OU. This may not be the exact case, but it's the only scenario I can think of where you could use base Absol in RU or whatever but use Mega Absol in OU. Even then, why are we using Scope Lens (there are like 2 moves that you get 100% critical hit rate with, and one of them is not Sucker Punch) when you could use an overall better item like Life Orb? Answer: You don't. Life Orb is the superior option where Absolite is not available, because... Well, you get more power consistently, while Scope Lens is inconsistent except on... Two moves? I'll pass.

Now if I even see any more mentions of Scope Lens, I'm going to go batshit.

Actually it's four moves (Night Slash, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Psycho Cut), some combination of which provides respectable coverage at least. Technically 6 but Slash and Razor Wind are lol. Plus the additional power wasn't the only benefit anyway, there's also the ability to ignore Intimidate/Defense boosts, which might be worth the trade-off of weaker utility moves (Sucker Punch/Pursuit/whatever). And while the lack of LO recoil is unlikely to make a difference there's still the possibility plus metagames with item clause on might appreciate absol using an otherwise completely terrible item.

Anyway, I don't think there's any more discussion to be had about this. I've said my piece, you've said yours, I'm going to try out lens if a tier shows up where Absolite isn't allowed but Absol is and presumably discover why it's a bad idea to use it instead of LO, no-one else is since I've failed to convince anyone it's worth a look over LO, everyone's settled on their point of view, and the discussion definitely isn't producing any useful information or considerations and is causing a bunch of tempers to flare. I don't really have anything useful to contribute to the Mega Absol discussion I don't think since a lot of it has been covered, and I mean I'm kind of completely new anyway so y'know.

Sorry the whole thing ended up junking up your thread as much as it did.

 

[Thorhammer]

For comparison's sake: with all that work, Night Slash and Slash become 70 BP moves with 100% crit. Storm Throw and Frost Breath are, on their own, 60 BP moves with 100% crit, and far better offensive typing.

Their insignificance should say a thing or two about how much 100% crit is worth.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

For comparison's sake: with all that work, Night Slash and Slash become 70 BP moves with 100% crit. Storm Throw and Frost Breath are, on their own, 60 BP moves with 100% crit, and far better offensive typing.

Their insignificance should say a thing or two about how much 100% crit is worth.

Storm throw and frost breath are insignificant because of how much better the alternatives are. Frost breath and ice beam have the same effective base power, but ice beam has better accuracy and freeze chance. Night slash and psycho cut get effective bp's of 105, better than any physical dark or psychic move. With the exception of shadow force, same with night slash. Stone Edge gets 150 bp, which ties it for most bp. Any of these moves are now completely viable, and could find a spot on a RU Absol. If you value SD or sucker punch so much, then run them, he won't mind losing 1 or 2 of those moves much, and if you think sucker punch absolutely needs a boost, then give it a life orb. All depends on how you play, but for me, I'm going to give a scope lens Absol a try before I label it as a failure.

 

[Aldrius]

Any of these moves are now completely viable, and could find a spot on a RU Absol

There's just no way Absol is going to be RU this gen. It'll be at least UU I think.

Unless they change how usage works.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

There's just no way Absol is going to be RU this gen. It'll be at least UU I think.

Unless they change how usage works.

Regular Absol hasn't changed much, so I don't see why he'd go from RU to UU just with the crit change. If anything the fairy newcomers will hurt his chances at rising.

 

[Aldrius]

Regular Absol hasn't changed much, so I don't see why he'd go from RU to UU just with the crit change. If anything the fairy newcomers will hurt his chances at rising.

One point you're missing: MegaAbsol IS RegularAbsol. If MegaAbsol is on x% of teams, then Absol is on x% of teams. OU vs. UU vs. RU isn't decided by how good or bad a pokemon is, it's based on how many people use that pokemon on their team. And MegaAbsol, for all intents and purposes is just another one of Absol's movesets.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

One point you're missing: MegaAbsol IS RegularAbsol. If MegaAbsol is on x% of teams, then Absol is on x% of teams.

if good strong pokes get banned from their ideal tiers because they have a mega evolution, then I'm quitting the metagame. A specific mega stone clause has become pretty popular, and the necessity of switching in Absol before MegaAbsol is just a tool to keep certain megas from becoming uber viable and OP. MegaAbsol has different stats, ability, and appearance, and while it can't just be pegged as a new form or evolution, the change has to be taken into account, or a lot of good Pokemon could get ignored. I think forcing pokemon into groups with their megas makes as much sense as putting the Rotoms into the same tier or banning lati@s from OU or making magneton banned from RU cuz magnezone's OU. Mega Evolution is not the same as any of these examples, but it really needs to be handled similarly because it is a similar game mechanic.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

if good strong pokes get banned from their ideal tiers because they have a mega evolution, then I'm quitting the metagame.

Then you may as well just quit now. Bye.

---

In fact, you know what? I'm done with this. Everyone, shut the fuck up about tiering policy, because I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to be talking about that here (I'm not a mod or anything, but I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be talking about tiering policy). Also, UU/RU/etc. aren't even established yet, so we should be talking about Ubers/OU only as those are the only currently established tiers, and Absol without its Mega Stone is not viable in either tier. Ergo, all discussion on Absol should be on its Mega Evolution and only its Mega Evolution, since it's simply not viable without it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Thorhammer]

if good strong pokes get banned from their ideal tiers because they have a mega evolution, then I'm quitting the metagame. A specific mega stone clause has become pretty popular, and the necessity of switching in Absol before MegaAbsol is just a tool to keep certain megas from becoming uber viable and OP. MegaAbsol has different stats, ability, and appearance, and while it can't just be pegged as a new form or evolution, the change has to be taken into account, or a lot of good Pokemon could get ignored. I think forcing pokemon into groups with their megas makes as much sense as putting the Rotoms into the same tier or banning lati@s from OU or making magneton banned from RU cuz magnezone's OU. Mega Evolution is not the same as any of these examples, but it really needs to be handled similarly because it is a similar game mechanic.

It's not "their ideal tier" anymore. Absol is now a far better Pokemon than it used to be. What you're suggesting is that the tiers ignore that to make special allowances, which is nonsense. When Drought Ninetales became popular in OU, we had no reason to count Flash Fire Ninetales as a separate Pokemon to allow it in lower tiers.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

It's not "their ideal tier" anymore. Absol is now a far better Pokemon than it used to be. What you're suggesting is that the tiers ignore that to make special allowances, which is nonsense. When Drought Ninetales became popular in OU, we had no reason to count Flash Fire Ninetales as a separate Pokemon to allow it in lower tiers.

My entire argument is that they're not the same pokemon anymore. Ninetales didn't get new stats or appearances. And it didn't get its new ability from holding an item. Banning Absolite from RU but not banning Absol is no different than banning soul dew from OU but not Lati@s, and I think enough people agree with me that Absol's RU status is perfectly safe.

 

[Aldrius]

Banning the Latis from OU (and that is the closest comparison) is a totally different situation than bumping a pokemon up a tier because it has a strong mega evolution. It's not a similar game mechanic at all anyway, when the Pokemon is sent out it starts off as the original one. Also, the Latis DIDN'T get banned from OU, Soul Dew got banned. What COULD happen is Absolite could get banned to BL or BL2 if Absol is in UU/RU and is deemed too strong for that tier with Absolite. Also how the hell would a megastone clause work? There's 30 of them and they're all totally different.

MegaAbsol (and MegaMawile) is also the WORST example, MegaAbsol is Absol... but better in every single way. It's barely a different pokemon. You can spend 10 turns using Gengar as a Gengar and then transform it into MegaGengar (and in some situations where you want the ground immunity, you might). That is not a different pokemon.

Banning Absolite from RU but not banning Absol is no different than banning soul dew from OU but not Lati@s, and I think enough people agree with me that Absol's RU status is perfectly safe.

If you 'ban' something from RU/UU, it goes to BL2/BL respectively. And that's if it's proven too strong. OU/UU/RU/NU/PU placement is based on USAGE, not on power. And Absolite's USAGE will not be counted.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Banning the Latis from OU (and that is the closest comparison)It's not a similar game mechanic at all anyway, when the Pokemon is sent out it starts off as the original one.

But the pokemon becomes a NEW pokemon. Not the same mechanic, but comparable.

the Latis DIDN'T get banned from OU, Soul Dew got banned.

Hence I didn't say ban Mega Absol, ban Absolite

What COULD happen is Absolite could get banned to BL or BL2 if Absol is in UU/RU and is deemed too strong for that tier with Absolite.

I thought I had established this as my best case scenario, but maybe I didn't make myself clear.

MegaAbsol is Absol... but better in every single way.

But is the key word. How is regular evolution any different? 95% of the time, evolving improves the pokemon. SAME WITH MEGA EVOLUTION! Just another similarity between mega evolution and regular evolution and another reason why they should be treated similarly.

Also how the hell would a megastone clause work? There's 30 of them and they're all totally different.

That's kinda the point. Each stone gets treated separately according to how they affect the metagame. Your Gengar example doesn't work because Gengar and Mega Gengar are both OU quality pokemon for the reasons you pointed out. A better example would be the intimidate users (like Mawile) who basically get 2 abilities (and yes, that was me admitting you have a point)

OU/UU/RU/NU/PU placement is based on USAGE, not on power. And Absolite's USAGE will not be counted.

This is your only point I can't ignore. The only precedent I can really turn to is Lati@s and soul dew, because Lati@s usage in uber never affected its OU status. But I guess that example doesn't completely apply to this situation because of the weird relationship between OU and Uber. I guess it'll come down to how people start interpreting the rule, and if they want to follow a strict version of the (self installed) rule, or follow precedent of times like gen IV where they faced similar problems (forms, new evolutions, etc.) and chose right instead of like in gen III where they chose wrong (soul dew, but they fixed that).

And I'll end with a question, why do I keep getting into arguments on the Absol page? I never seem to tick this many people off on other discussions.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Seriously guys? Do I have to go ask a mod to set up a blacklist on this thread? Because at this rate I think that's necessary.

Guys, please... Stop ruining my thread. This is fucking ridiculous.

 

[Fundance]

can a scarfed Absol outspeed Mega Gengar? Because I'm thinking that Scarfed Absol could easily pursuit-trap and possibly OKO Mega Gengar soundly. Will have to try calculations.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

can a scarfed Absol outspeed Mega Gengar? Because I'm thinking that Scarfed Absol could easily pursuit-trap and possibly OKO Mega Gengar soundly. Will have to try calculations.

It can, but my question is... Why do you want to use Scarf Absol? The only reason I can think of why you'd use Scarf Absol instead of Scarf Tyranitar is because Scarf Absol outspeeds Mega Gengar and Scarf Tyranitar doesn't. And that is in and of itself not a good enough reason to use base Absol, so... Just stick to Mega Absol.

 

[Fundance]

But Mega Absol doesn't outspeed Mega Gengar...neither does scarfed T-Tar.

the whole point of scarfed Absol is to create a 100% death trap scenario against Mega Gengar as a revenge kill. If you use a slower Pokemon, he'll just OKO you and move on.

Scarfed Weavile cannot OKO Mega Gengar with Pursuit, but Absol is a little stronger physically, and just fast enough to still outspeed Gengar with a scarf, making it ideal for this task.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

But what I'm saying is being better against JUST Mega Gengar does not make it worth using. You need a lot more than that, especially when considering Mega Absol outclasses base Absol entirely.

As it stands, Mega Absol w/ Pursuit can already trap all-out attacking Mega Gengar since those are threatened by Sucker Punch, but even then Mega Gengar's user could just predict you. However... It's basically the same shit with Scarf Absol. You can Pursuit trying to trap Mega Gengar, but if they don't switch and instead attack, you lose as long as Mega Gengar is at least around ~72% health. Even if you do win the prediction war, your opponent now knows you're not running Absolite and now knows they don't have to worry about Absol since Scarf Absol is basically a one-trick pony that doesn't do its trick very well and does just about everything else worse than Mega Absol.

 

[Leica]

I assume Naive/Hasty (With Naive being prefered) is really the only option for Absol right? I have a Jolly one but I'm probably going to rebreed, however I did some calcs and most 2HKO's with Fire Blast still happen with a Jolly nature, does Absol miss out on any important kills if it runs a Jolly nature over Naive?

 

[sidakarya]

Absol's already one of my most favourite Pokémon, and trying its mega form, I absolutely love it. It's working wonders on my team paired with Talonflame and mixed Aegislash to lure Gliscor.

Magic Guard is really an amazing ability on a fast sweeper like M-Absol. Against walls relying on passive damage or status it acts like a kind of pseudo-Taunt, since the only thing you can do with most of them is attack. This makes Absol a fantastic stallbreaker especially with SD, and of course Sucker Punch takes perfect advantage of that in case they do attack. The boosted Special attack and Speed makes it more potent than ever, now that it can be mixed and destroy physical-defensive steels. (Also, I love being able to outspeed the Latis and wreck them with Play Rough.)

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I assume Naive/Hasty (With Naive being prefered) is really the only option for Absol right? I have a Jolly one but I'm probably going to rebreed, however I did some calcs and most 2HKO's with Fire Blast still happen with a Jolly nature, does Absol miss out on any important kills if it runs a Jolly nature over Naive?

Just wondering, did you factor in the Fire Blast nerf? I just did calcs factoring in the Fire Blast nerf and, assuming Stealth Rock isn't up, with Jolly, Mega Absol never 2HKOes Specially defensive Skarmory, while with Naive, it has just under a 70% chance to do so. With Stealth Rock, Naive guarantees the 2HKO while you have a ~86% chance to 2HKO with Jolly.

You're not going to survive many attacks either way, so may as well run Naive.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Why is no one running Knock Off on Mega Absol?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/absol.3489324/#post-4933948

Do your research

 

[Soda]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/absol.3489324/#post-4933948

Do your research

It's usable in Showdown, is on Serebii, and in fact is somehow learned by Absol in Gen 4/5 according to Smogon.

So...<3

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

It's usable in Showdown, is on Serebii, and in fact is somehow learned by Absol in Gen 4/5 according to Smogon.

So...<3

Learnable in Gen 4/5 by move tutor, which is not yet available.

Also, I just looked on Serebii, and it's listed in the Gen V Only moves section. So... <3

Anyway, this conversation is over, it's a waste of my time, and I'm done with it.