Anything Goes Resources

I don't know how much of a gimmick it really is, it IS pretty gimmicky to be honest, but is there any chance to have Octillery ranked at D anyhow?

Octillery @ Leftovers
Trait: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Happiness: 255 / 0
Calm Nature
-Protect
-Substitute
-Scald / Surf
-Charge Beam / Return / Frustration / Ice Beam / Flamethrower

Investing in Special Defense allows Octillery to switch on unboosted Moonblast from Xerneas, take it and set a sub then protect. The goal is to keep a Substitute up as much as possible, while Protecting every other turn to get the Moody boosts coming. Moody's unpredictable nature makes Octillery seriously disgusting to face if it pulls off Evasiveness boosts for example. The last two moveslots would be dedicated to attacking, I like having a STAB that has high PP because if Octillery pulls off SpA decreases, at least it will have a better time in attempting to restore them; the other option is to have a coverage move such as Charge Beam that can increase SpA at a good rate, Return if you want nice neutral coverage and use of potential Attack boosts, Frustration if Ditto is a big concern (if you setup a Substitute, Ditto can't copy Octillery), Ice Beam and Flamethrower being coverage options.
The downside is that Octillery has terrible stats in a tier where it can face monsters like E-Killer Arceus, M-Ray or Geomancy Xerneas; but I believe it deserves a ranking as it helped me breeze through low ladder with relatively no effort, and can be fun. If Numel got ranked at a time, maybe Octillery may deserve it?
PS: If it has already been suggested and refused, then sorry, I didn't read all 21 pages because time is a thing :/

From the set you had shown, I can point out that you're lacking "Taunt".Taunt is a very important move for moody based pokemon.Octilley doesnt learn taunt btw

0 SpA Octillery Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 70-84 (17.7 - 21.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 78-93 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Octillery Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 29-35 (7.3 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Octillery Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Octillery Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 52-62 (13.1 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Octillery Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 52-62 (13.1 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Clefable wall its bad.That what i would like to say. :)
 
From the set you had shown, I can point out that you're lacking "Taunt".Taunt is a very important move for moody based pokemon.Octilley doesnt learn taunt btw

0 SpA Octillery Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 70-84 (17.7 - 21.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Octillery Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 78-93 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Octillery Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 29-35 (7.3 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Octillery Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Octillery Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 52-62 (13.1 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Octillery Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 52-62 (13.1 - 15.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Clefable wall its bad.That what i would like to say. :)
OK I see. Must've been my luck because against all 5 Clefable I faced in AG, I had at least weakened the Clefable to 60% health and +3SpA Scald on what seemed mostly physically defensive clefs. Luck ain't an argument so I guess we shouldn't rank Octillery. Thanks for the insight! :)
 
Nominating Cloyster
091.png
for D rank.
Don't laugh at me, it's a serious nomination.

Cloyster is a nice Toxic Spikes lead capable of destroying many common suicide leads, denting Primal Groudon and Support Arceus formes. Its access to Rapid Spin allows it to become an excellent lead in many cases preventing hazard setup, while its solid physical defense allows it to live many common attacks from Primal Groudon and ExtremeKiller, while holding a Focus Sash enables set up against Pokémon without Priority. I've been using the Ubers Hazard Control set to above average success on the AG ladder and against many formidable opponents. Here are a few examples of its capabilities.

vs Excadrill Lead: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-351885715
vs Scolipede Lead: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-351891570

Why should I use Toxic Spikes?
Toxic Spikes are extremely useful against many teams, but have a nice use against Darkrai, Glalie and teams with a large influence of stall. Icicle Spear destroys many Defoggers, bar Support Arceus formes, and additionally beats Sash, Sturdy and Substitute abusers.

Finally, I want to propose an idea for ranks below D of which I have been pondering about for some time. During discussion with other council members and users on PS, it seems like a 50/50 split between sub ranks for D or a solid D and solid E rank. I would like to hear opinions on these and CloyCloy.

Also Octillery is bad lol.
 
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Nominating Cloyster
091.png
for D rank.
Don't laugh at me, it's a serious nomination.

Cloyster is a nice Toxic Spikes lead capable of destroying many common suicide leads, denting Primal Groudon and Support Arceus formes. Its access to Rapid Spin allows it to become an excellent lead in many cases preventing hazard setup, while its solid physical defense allows it to live many common attacks from Primal Groudon and ExtremeKiller, while holding a Focus Sash enables set up against Pokémon without Priority. I've been using the Ubers Hazard Control set to above average success on the AG ladder and against many formidable opponents. Here are a few examples of its capabilities.

vs Excadrill Lead: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-351885715
vs Scolipede Lead: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-351891570

Why should I use Toxic Spikes?
Toxic Spikes are extremely useful against many teams, but have a nice use against Darkrai, Glalie and teams with a large influence of stall. Icicle Spear destroys many Defoggers, bar Support Arceus formes, and additionally beats Sash, Sturdy and Substitute abusers.

Finally, I want to propose an idea for ranks below D of which I have been pondering about for some time. During discussion with other council members and users on PS, it seems like a 50/50 split between sub ranks for D or a solid D and solid E rank. I would like to hear opinions on these and CloyCloy.

Also Octillery is bad lol.
Well at least I tried ._.

on the relevant side though I second the Cloyster nomination. This underrated creepy hermit pearl inside an armor is a really decent lead in Anything Goes but don't expect to be sweeping much teams with Cloyster alone in a tier where roams priority users such as Arceus and Rayquaza. :)
 
I think the split only seems realistic because we have D ranks that don't really need to be there. I mean, if forry/whimsy/liepard/heatran/deo-d/chansey were unranked, we'd really have 2 sui leads, a handful of arceus formes, and 3 really niche mons (gliscor megabro amoongus). Splitting implies they have different levels of viability, but I only agree with this in the sense that the lower D ranks should be straight unranked, not just moved to a D- even lower level of viability than they already are. I mean frankly, the only things below C+ I can fit onto a team with any ease at all are latias and quagsire. It's just too low-reaching to justify an even lower level
also megamence has a mega meta sprite :v
 
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Heatran is now unranked, I'm sure we agreed upon this months ago and we just forgot about it.

I think the split only seems realistic because we have D ranks that don't really need to be there. I mean, if forry/whimsy/liepard/heatran/deo-d/chansey were unranked, we'd really have 2 sui leads, a handful of arceus formes, and 3 really niche mons (gliscor megabro amoongus). Splitting implies they have different levels of viability, but I only agree with this in the sense that the lower D ranks should be straight unranked, not just moved to a D- even lower level of viability than they already are. I mean frankly, the only things below C+ I can fit onto a team with any ease at all are latias and quagsire. It's just too low-reaching to justify an even lower level
also megamence has a mega meta sprite :v

The thing is I can justify these all on my team with correct builds, which is usually the standard for C to D mons anyway. If anything, you'd be suggesting a rise to Quag and Latias, because they then fit with the subrank above them. I personally feel as if we're not giving enough justice to the Pokemon in these lower ranks, even after testing I can agree that the lower mons deserve to stay. There are heaps of Pokemon that really do have use within the AG metagame, proper use. Not just niche "I'll use Nidoking over Landorus because I'm a god". They have proper use, and I believe that their use should be acknowledged. Seriously, play the meta a bit more and see what it has to offer.
 
Heatran is now unranked, I'm sure we agreed upon this months ago and we just forgot about it.



The thing is I can justify these all on my team with correct builds, which is usually the standard for C to D mons anyway. If anything, you'd be suggesting a rise to Quag and Latias, because they then fit with the subrank above them. I personally feel as if we're not giving enough justice to the Pokemon in these lower ranks, even after testing I can agree that the lower mons deserve to stay. There are heaps of Pokemon that really do have use within the AG metagame, proper use. Not just niche "I'll use Nidoking over Landorus because I'm a god". They have proper use, and I believe that their use should be acknowledged. Seriously, play the meta a bit more and see what it has to offer.
you misunderstand the point. I can use them and they have a legit niche, but they arent an easy fit on a team, there's a clear point where suddenly they need way more team support than almost anything in higher ranks except for mons who need heavier team support but have a way higher potential reward (see: BP). To me that's the cutoff where, upon deciding what I'm going to build around, I'm not normally going to fit them on after that because it's a totally different structure.
 
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Nominating Aegislash C to B-
This thing is so underrated its not funny. I believe that most people assume that its inflexible and possesses a niche only in that it can use Toxic and Gyro Ball. However, with a Choice Band this thing not only becomes frighteningly powerful, but can sweep with the right support. Here are a few calcs and explanations to accompany them.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 1188-1400 (286.2 - 337.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ho-Oh, which you might've thought was a good switch-in to this monster, doesn't stand a chance. While it's correct that Aegislash can't switch into Ho-Oh this is irrelevant, since it's an incredibly ass move.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 440-522 (100.2 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Aegislash, due to it's solid special bulk and good typing against Xerneas, can switch in on the turn that Xerneas Geomancies and respond with Iron Head. Even if Xerneas is already boosted, Aegislash can still switch in, as Moonblast does less than 50%, although Aegi would need to be preserved throughout the match to do this.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 24 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 634-746 (158.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal's not switching into this monster.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 233-275 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even Arceus doesn't take Aegi's hits well.

I think I've demonstrated my point. However, I hear what you're asking-How is Aegislash going to get up the momentum required to do all of this? Simply due to it's typing it can switch into any passive Pokemon, Lugia included, and threaten massive damage, forcing them out or netting a KO, both of which have their perks. It can also switch into many Pokemon that can't hit it well, such as Xerneas, and proceed to threaten.

Finally, the issue of Ground types. Many seem to take this as one of the reasons Aegislash can't be used seriously. However, think. With minimal support, e.g. carrying a Pokemon with Levitate/Flying type can circumnavigate this. For example, Yveltal and Aegislash make a great team, as Yveltal can switch into any Earthquakes whereas Aegislash can take on any Fairies.

I know that Aegislash has its flaws, which will no doubt be pointed out. However, I'm not nomming it for an A rank, I just want to see it rise to B-. Thanks for reading.
 
Nominating Aegislash C to B-
This thing is so underrated its not funny. I believe that most people assume that its inflexible and possesses a niche only in that it can use Toxic and Gyro Ball. However, with a Choice Band this thing not only becomes frighteningly powerful, but can sweep with the right support. Here are a few calcs and explanations to accompany them.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 1188-1400 (286.2 - 337.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ho-Oh, which you might've thought was a good switch-in to this monster, doesn't stand a chance. While it's correct that Aegislash can't switch into Ho-Oh this is irrelevant, since it's an incredibly ass move.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 440-522 (100.2 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Aegislash, due to it's solid special bulk and good typing against Xerneas, can switch in on the turn that Xerneas Geomancies and respond with Iron Head. Even if Xerneas is already boosted, Aegislash can still switch in, as Moonblast does less than 50%, although Aegi would need to be preserved throughout the match to do this.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 24 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 634-746 (158.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal's not switching into this monster.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 233-275 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even Arceus doesn't take Aegi's hits well.

I think I've demonstrated my point. However, I hear what you're asking-How is Aegislash going to get up the momentum required to do all of this? Simply due to it's typing it can switch into any passive Pokemon, Lugia included, and threaten massive damage, forcing them out or netting a KO, both of which have their perks. It can also switch into many Pokemon that can't hit it well, such as Xerneas, and proceed to threaten.

Finally, the issue of Ground types. Many seem to take this as one of the reasons Aegislash can't be used seriously. However, think. With minimal support, e.g. carrying a Pokemon with Levitate/Flying type can circumnavigate this. For example, Yveltal and Aegislash make a great team, as Yveltal can switch into any Earthquakes whereas Aegislash can take on any Fairies.

I know that Aegislash has its flaws, which will no doubt be pointed out. However, I'm not nomming it for an A rank, I just want to see it rise to B-. Thanks for reading.

Honestly Aegislash has no niche in Anything Goes/Ubers except being a Xerneas check that can spread poison around. Choice Band Aegislash seems like such a liability to use. I mean you can't even change your forme back once you attack, which means you basically die to any hit once you attack. You have to bring it in carefully vs the one thing it can definitely beat (e: xerneas) & then predict correctly or be forced to switch out. Also you need to realise Aegislash is slow as fuck, so it can even be killed before it attacks. I don't think you're going to be getting any significant trades without you dying first with CB Aegislash. C rank is apt for it, I feel.
 
Nominating Aegislash C to B-
This thing is so underrated its not funny. I believe that most people assume that its inflexible and possesses a niche only in that it can use Toxic and Gyro Ball. However, with a Choice Band this thing not only becomes frighteningly powerful, but can sweep with the right support. Here are a few calcs and explanations to accompany them.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 1188-1400 (286.2 - 337.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ho-Oh, which you might've thought was a good switch-in to this monster, doesn't stand a chance. While it's correct that Aegislash can't switch into Ho-Oh this is irrelevant, since it's an incredibly ass move.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 440-522 (100.2 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Aegislash, due to it's solid special bulk and good typing against Xerneas, can switch in on the turn that Xerneas Geomancies and respond with Iron Head. Even if Xerneas is already boosted, Aegislash can still switch in, as Moonblast does less than 50%, although Aegi would need to be preserved throughout the match to do this.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 24 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 634-746 (158.8 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal's not switching into this monster.

252 Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 233-275 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even Arceus doesn't take Aegi's hits well.

I think I've demonstrated my point. However, I hear what you're asking-How is Aegislash going to get up the momentum required to do all of this? Simply due to it's typing it can switch into any passive Pokemon, Lugia included, and threaten massive damage, forcing them out or netting a KO, both of which have their perks. It can also switch into many Pokemon that can't hit it well, such as Xerneas, and proceed to threaten.

Finally, the issue of Ground types. Many seem to take this as one of the reasons Aegislash can't be used seriously. However, think. With minimal support, e.g. carrying a Pokemon with Levitate/Flying type can circumnavigate this. For example, Yveltal and Aegislash make a great team, as Yveltal can switch into any Earthquakes whereas Aegislash can take on any Fairies.

I know that Aegislash has its flaws, which will no doubt be pointed out. However, I'm not nomming it for an A rank, I just want to see it rise to B-. Thanks for reading.

In my opinion, this argument of yours seems a little flawed. Note that I like your idea but B- is a lot farther and higher in the ranks than the sword-like Pokémon deserves. First, you ran calculation of a Rock-type move against Ho-Oh, but really which Rock-type move cannot knock out Ho-Oh? This is not a very good point. You noted Arceus has troubles taking Aegislash's Head Smash, but you're running your calculations on an offensive Arceus, who despite his good raw 120/120/120 bulk, isn't designed to take hits as the investment comes on attack and speed. As of Yveltal, Sucker Punch can deal with Blade-forme while Shield-forme can barely take a Dark Pulse as show this:
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 268-320 (82.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
whereas if Aegislash had slight investment into Attack he would definitely faint without landing his attack.
Finally, Yveltal and Aegislash may make a good team but to be fair, doesn't Gengar team up a lot better with Yveltal, trapping pesky Fairy-type in and, facing unboosted Xerneas, guaranteeing the KO with Destiny Bond?
I do not want to sound like a total counter-argument, so do consider this post as a friendly opinion on nominating Aegislash to C / B- :)
 
Honestly Aegislash has no niche in Anything Goes/Ubers except being a Xerneas check that can spread poison around. Choice Band Aegislash seems like such a liability to use. I mean you can't even change your forme back once you attack, which means you basically die to any hit once you attack. You have to bring it in carefully vs the one thing it can definitely beat (e: xerneas) & then predict correctly or be forced to switch out. Also you need to realise Aegislash is slow as fuck, so it can even be killed before it attacks. I don't think you're going to be getting any significant trades without you dying first with CB Aegislash. C rank is apt for it, I feel.
I do understand that it's a pain in the ass to get Aegislash in safely, and will often struggle to do so, but it not only switches in to Xerneas, but can deal with any stall Pokemon that doesn't carry WoW, since Aegislash doesn't care about paralysis, but hits absurd levels of power with Gyro Ball. For example, take the following calc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 198-233 (47.5 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 396-466 (95.1 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
This entails that, even with Multiscale intact, Head Smash does massive amounts of damage, which would fairly easily KO Lugia through after rocks. In a wider context, this entails that Aegislash can 1v1 nearly any stall Pokemon it wants, potentially forcing it out or dealing massive damage. As such, even though Aegislash still struggles to come in, it does have opportunities enough to, in my opinion, merit a B- ranking.

In my opinion, this argument of yours seems a little flawed. Note that I like your idea but B- is a lot farther and higher in the ranks than the sword-like Pokémon deserves. First, you ran calculation of a Rock-type move against Ho-Oh, but really which Rock-type move cannot knock out Ho-Oh? This is not a very good point. You noted Arceus has troubles taking Aegislash's Head Smash, but you're running your calculations on an offensive Arceus, who despite his good raw 120/120/120 bulk, isn't designed to take hits as the investment comes on attack and speed. As of Yveltal, Sucker Punch can deal with Blade-forme while Shield-forme can barely take a Dark Pulse as show this:
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 268-320 (82.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
whereas if Aegislash had slight investment into Attack he would definitely faint without landing his attack.
Finally, Yveltal and Aegislash may make a good team but to be fair, doesn't Gengar team up a lot better with Yveltal, trapping pesky Fairy-type in and, facing unboosted Xerneas, guaranteeing the KO with Destiny Bond?
I do not want to sound like a total counter-argument, so do consider this post as a friendly opinion on nominating Aegislash to C / B- :)
I do agree that nigh on any Rock move KO's Ho-Oh, but the main point was that Ho-Oh may be considered a good switch-in to Aegislash due to resistances to Steel and it's ability to shrug off Toxic damage with Regenerator. You then proceed to discuss how Yveltal would easily deal with Aegislash. First of all, it's a pretty ass move to start with, switching Aegislash into Yveltal, so I don't expect that that was what you were saying. If Yveltal switches into Aegislash, and is predicted, then I present the following calc.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 624-736 (146.4 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal is by no means a good switch-in to Aegislash. Pretty much nothing is, considering it's raw power and fairly diverse movepool.

By reading the above arguments it should become obvious that, as pointed out by others, that Aegislash struggles to switch in. However, once it is switched in, Aegislash boasts extraordinary power that almost nothing can deal with, if the correct move is used. With the multiple benefits that I think I have explained sufficiently against what I see to be only two flaws I still believe that Aegislash can be promoted to B-.
 
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Nominating Jirachi C- to C
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Jirachi might seem like a niche in the AG metagame, but I think its really underestimated. 2 sets that you can run are Choice Scarf and Specially Defensive. It's main job is to take out Xerneas and support the team with Healing Wish. The Choice Scarf set can also cripple Swords Dance Arceus that has gotten a couple boosts, with Trick, because they will usually use Earthquake or Shadow Claw against a Jirachi. The Choice Scarf set also is a semi-Mega Rayquaza switch-in. Semi, because Mega Rayquaza can run a lot of sets, thus being somewhat unpredictable. I think Jirachi belongs in C more than in C-, because the Pokémon that are currently in C- have such small roles in the metagame, like Drifblim for example. It is only used for Baton Pass whereas Jirachi is able to have multiple roles, such as Stealth Rocks, Healing Wish, etc. What makes Jirachi even better is Serene Grace, which lets Iron Head have a 60% Flinch Chance. This makes it possible for it to clutch games, even when you're behind 4-1! Another thing what makes it deserve C is its accessibility to U-turn, Wish, Thunder Wave and a great movepool overall. This Pokémon can fit on almost any offensive team, because of Healing Wish in particular. Another Pokémon that has a similar role as Jirachi is Shaymin-Sky. Shaymin-Sky lacks a good typing in my opinion, and doesn't check Xerneas and Arceus as well as Jirachi. Shaymin-Sky is nowhere near being a Mega Rayquaza switch-in. In addition to that, Shaymin-Sky is very weak to most priority moves and also lacks move like U-turn. However, Shaymin-Sky has more offensive pressure than Jirachi which gives it a slightly different role comparing to Jirachi. My preferations go to Jirachi though, because of the typing.
Damage Calcs:
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 138-162 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Speed Tiers:
492 / Jirachi / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +1
490 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / +2
Notable usage stats:
Xerneas Spreads
Modest:248/0/0/252/8/0 17.665%
Modest:184/0/28/252/0/44 11.221%
 
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Rather than continue with this Aegislash discussion, which I can't seem to fathom (Banded Aegislash ffs), I would like to nominate some other more evident changes in rank.

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C+ to B/B-; Deoxys-Speed is a great lead for a plethora of different teams, due to its speed paired with its access to many different utility moves. Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt, Reflect, Light Screen, Knock Off, Skill Swap and even Magic Coat make Deoxys-Speed such a dominant lead in the Anything Goes metagame. This has been evidently showcased by a multitude of recent RMTs including:
"The Legend" by Drayden8437: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3565471/
"Enfin" by Yours Truly: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3566534/
As for its presence within the metagame at the moment, its usage has risen tremendously as well as the metagame shifting to bulkier teams which make Deoxys's time so much easier. I honestly believe it would be a dis-justice to Deoxys, if it was not ranked higher than C+.

493-dark.png
C+ to C-; I struggle to comprehend why any decent player in the metagame would use a Dark Arceus in AG. It accomplishes nothing bar from walling Darkrai's STAB (however straight up failing against 'TauntRai'), being an Yveltal check barely (offensive sets still Oblivion Wing for almost half) and switching into Mewtwo's Psystrike (dies to Focus Blast). Dark Arceus is slightly better in the Ubers metagame due to the presence of the Lati twins, however in AG these mons are non-existent. If someone can come up with a decent argument, fine; but otherwise I think this is fair.

I disagree with Aegislash being anything higher than C at this point of the metagame anyway. I agree that Xerneas and Ho-Oh usage are rising, however this usage does not equate to Aegislash's viability. There are much better walls to both Xerneas and Ho-Oh, that still deal major damage to Arceus and the other listed threats. Aegislash being banded takes away from its main niche. Hence I 100% disagree with your nomination.

Nominating Jirachi C- to C
385.gif

Jirachi might seem like a niche in the AG metagame, but I think its really underestimated. 2 sets that you can run are Choice Scarf and Specially Defensive. It's main job is to take out Xerneas and support the team with Healing Wish. The Choice Scarf set can also cripple Swords Dance Arceus that has gotten a couple boosts, with Trick, because they will usually use Earthquake or Shadow Claw against a Jirachi. The Choice Scarf set also is a semi-Mega Rayquaza switch-in. Semi, because Mega Rayquaza can run a lot of sets, thus being somewhat unpredictabe. I think Jirachi belongs in C more than in C-, because the Pokémon that are currently in C- have such small roles in the metagame such as Drifblim which is only used for Baton Pass whereas Jirachi is able to have multiple roles, such as Stealth Rocks, Healing Wish, etc. What makes Jirachi even better is Serene Grace, which lets Iron Head have a 60% Flinch Chance. This makes it possible for it to clutch games, even when you're behind 4-1 or something. Another thing what makes it deserve C is its accessibility to U-turn, Wish, Thunder Wave and a great movepool overall. This Pokémon can fit on almost any offensive team, because of Healing Wish in particular. Another Pokémon that has a similar role as Jirachi is Shaymin-Sky. Shaymin-Sky lacks a good typing in my opinion, and doesn't check Xerneas and Arceus as well as Jirachi. Shaymin-Sky is nowhere near being a Mega Rayquaza switch-in. Shaymin-Sky is very weak to most priority moves and also lacks move like U-turn. However, Shaymin-Sky has more offensive pressure than Jirachi which gives it a slightly different role comparing to Jirachi. My preferations go to Jirachi though, because of the typing.
Damage Calcs:
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 138-162 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Speed Tiers:
492 / Jirachi / 110 / +Spe / 252 / +1
490 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / +2
Notable usage stats:
Xerneas Spreads
Modest:248/0/0/252/8/0 17.665%
Modest:184/0/28/252/0/44 11.221%
Supporting~
 
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Rather than continue with this Aegislash discussion, which I can't seem to famine (Banded Aegislash ffs), I would like to nominate some other more evident changes in rank.

386s.png
C+ to B/B-; Deoxys-Speed is a great lead for a plethora of different teams, due to its speed paired with its access to many different utility moves. Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt, Reflect, Light Screen, Knock Off, Skill Swap and even Magic Coat make Deoxys-Speed such a dominant lead in the Anything Goes metagame. This has been evidently showcased by a multitude of recent RMTs including:
"The Legend" by Drayden8437: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3565471/
"Enfin" by Yours Truly: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3566534/
As for its presence within the metagame at the moment, its usage has risen tremendously as well as the metagame shifting to bulkier teams which make Deoxys's time so much easier. I honestly believe it would be a dis-justice to Deoxys, if it was not ranked higher than C+.

493-dark.png
C+ to C-; I struggle to comprehend why any decent player in the metagame would use a Dark Arceus in AG. It accomplishes nothing bar from walling Darkrai's STAB (however straight up failing against 'TauntRai'), being an Yveltal check barely (offensive sets still Oblivion Wing for almost half) and switching into Mewtwo's Psystrike (dies to Focus Blast). Dark Arceus is slightly better in the Ubers metagame due to the presence of the Lati twins, however in AG these mons are non-existent. If someone can come up with a decent argument, fine; but otherwise I think this is fair.

I disagree with Aegislash being anything higher than C at this point of the metagame anyway. I agree that Xerneas and Ho-Oh usage are rising, however this usage does not equate to Aegislash's viability. There are much better walls to both Xerneas and Ho-Oh, that still deal major damage to Arceus and the other listed threats. Aegislash being banded takes away from its main niche. Hence I 100% disagree with your nomination.


Supporting~
100% Supporting Deoxys-S rising. It's easily the most useful Deoxys form imo, as Deoxys-A isn't very good at the moment.

Supporting Darkceus falling, it has no real niche in AG and is easily outclassed by many other mons.

Onto Aegislash. Not once was it ever said that Aegislash should be used to wall Ho-Oh. I included a calc in my post that stated that Ho-Oh could not act as a good switch-in to Aegislash, as it can carry Head Smash. Switching Aegislash into Ho-Oh is an immensely ass move, I really don't understand how this got interpreted from what I said. I disagree with Aegislash being banded meaning that it loses its main niche, instead I think it opens up a secondary role it can act in. Of course it can't use King's Shield anymore, nor Toxic, but the sort of power that goes with it combined with a large amount of coverage makes it a worthy candidate for B- in my opinion.

To further support Aegislash rising, I think it's important to take into account what Pokemon actually are in B-.

B-
483.png
Dialga-Has a niche in setting Stealth Rocks and resisting many types. However, it is fairly outclassed at setting rocks by most Arceus forms as well as Primal Groudon. Aegislash also has many resistances as well as higher defences, and carries much more offensive pressure than Dialga.
598.png
Ferrothorn-Useful in using Leech Seed, Spikes and Stealth Rock and walling Toxic. Although Aegislash cannot be compared to a utility Pokemon well it should be noted that Ferrothorn has low defense in a physical metagame and, considering the most common offensive typings, doesn't offer any particulatrly useful resistances, exept to Toxic.
649.png
Genesect-Most notable for being quick with a Choice Scarf and hitting moderately hard with Download. Aegislash hits harder, although slower, and boasts larger defensive capabilities than Genesect before it attacks.
mewtwo-mega-y.png
Mega-Mewtwo-Y-Notable for being quick and quite strong. Aegislash, although not as strong, boasts significantly higher defenses before attacking and is immune to Toxic.
212-m.png
Scizor-Mega-Notable for strong priority STABs backe dup by Swords Dance and multiple utility moves. Aegislash carries much more power and a larger range of coverage, although with a Choice Band lacks in utility options.

As has hopefully been seen above, Aegislash does fit relatively well into the B- rank, as it shares the same approximate level of viability as most of the Pokemon in there. Due to this, Aegislash would be better suited to a B- ranking than its current one in C.
 
Nominating Jirachi C- to C
385.gif

Jirachi might seem like a niche in the AG metagame, but I think its really underestimated. 2 sets that you can run are Choice Scarf and Specially Defensive. It's main job is to take out Xerneas and support the team with Healing Wish. The Choice Scarf set can also cripple Swords Dance Arceus that has gotten a couple boosts, with Trick, because they will usually use Earthquake or Shadow Claw against a Jirachi. The Choice Scarf set also is a semi-Mega Rayquaza switch-in. Semi, because Mega Rayquaza can run a lot of sets, thus being somewhat unpredictable. I think Jirachi belongs in C more than in C-, because the Pokémon that are currently in C- have such small roles in the metagame, like Drifblim for example. It is only used for Baton Pass whereas Jirachi is able to have multiple roles, such as Stealth Rocks, Healing Wish, etc. What makes Jirachi even better is Serene Grace, which lets Iron Head have a 60% Flinch Chance. This makes it possible for it to clutch games, even when you're behind 4-1! Another thing what makes it deserve C is its accessibility to U-turn, Wish, Thunder Wave and a great movepool overall. This Pokémon can fit on almost any offensive team, because of Healing Wish in particular. Another Pokémon that has a similar role as Jirachi is Shaymin-Sky. Shaymin-Sky lacks a good typing in my opinion, and doesn't check Xerneas and Arceus as well as Jirachi. Shaymin-Sky is nowhere near being a Mega Rayquaza switch-in. In addition to that, Shaymin-Sky is very weak to most priority moves and also lacks move like U-turn. However, Shaymin-Sky has more offensive pressure than Jirachi which gives it a slightly different role comparing to Jirachi. My preferations go to Jirachi though, because of the typing.
Damage Calcs:
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 288-339 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 138-162 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Speed Tiers:
492 / Jirachi / 110 / +Spe / 252 / +1
490 / Xerneas / 99 / Neutral / 44 / +2
Notable usage stats:
Xerneas Spreads
Modest:248/0/0/252/8/0 17.665%
Modest:184/0/28/252/0/44 11.221%

Supporting this. I haven't used SpDef, but Scarf can check MegaRay, Xerneas, CM Fairyceus, Mega Diancie and even Mewtwo to an extent and it can revenge kill Darkrai and Mega Gengar in a pinch with Iron Head flinches. Healing Wish is immensely useful and Trick and Body Slam come handy to cripple stuff. It's more on par with stuff in C+/C than with C-.

Also, why are Arceus Ice/Fire/Fighting/Grass/Electric/Flying/Bug/Psychic ranked at all? Do these have a specific niche that I'm not aware of, or just because they are Arceus formes? They just clutter up the rankings imo. I haven't seen any of these except, like, a few low ladder teams with 6 Arceuses.
 
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Supporting this. I haven't used SpDef, but Scarf can check MegaRay, Xerneas, CM Fairyceus, Mega Diancie and even Mewtwo to an extent and it can revenge kill Darkrai and Mega Gengar in a pinch with Iron Head flinches. Healing Wish is immensely useful and Trick and Body Slam come handy to cripple stuff. It's more on par with stuff in C+/C than with C-.

Also, why are Arceus Ice/Fire/Fighting/Grass/Electric/Flying/Bug/Psychic ranked at all? Do these have a specific niche that I'm not aware of, or just because they are Arceus formes? I haven't seen any of these except, like, a few low ladder teams with 6 Arceuses.
We have unranked bugceus and psychceus, so it's not an issue with unranking formes. It's just that D rank still seemed like an ok place for the ones you mentioned. Ice, Fighting, and Grass I don't see getting unranked because of lack of any real competition and they have a few small things going for them (great offensive typing, ekiller check, grass knot is like the best coverage move + better vs ogre), Electric was far from the worst thing I've used as a CM arc form with boltbeam coverage so it fares way better vs hooh and megaray. Flying is, uh, just terrible really and Fire was up for unranking but we agreed on the niche xern check being enough to let it stay or something. I have no problem with unranking the last two though.

Having tried Rachi a decent amount I could support C, bulky has a bit of a niche in the slow u-turn but definitely isn't the selling point while scarf's healing wish and normal resist are kind of cool but it falls down in not actually being able to do significant damage to anything at all. It's just so weak that you're going to need a hell of a lot of flinches or sacrifice most of your health before you can get through something like Ho-Oh or Ekiller. If this had 130 attack it'd probably be solid but it's just such a letdown. On the other hand it's way better than Aegislash, which is honestly closer to dropping than rising. No issues with Deo-S or Arc Dark either but I do have noms of my own.

The lower ranks are still really more of a "seems good" area than having a ton of thought put into them, so there are a few things which can switch around imo. Greninja could frankly be unranked, I don't want to use it as a sui lead when Scolipede lacks taunt but brings so much more to the table and even cloyster can be annoying. Plus, once it's down there's generally plenty of opportunities to defog and I don't think suicide Tspikes are particularly good because of the ease of removal. Regular Sableye is also a terribly niche mon, its lack of useful resists more than compromises any utility from its immunities. Mega has the bulk to actually take things on, but regular sableye is a status spamming mon in a meta with a ton of better status spamming mons. I really wouldn't mind this being unranked but I don't have the best experience with it so it could end up another one of the mons that are pretty terrible and have no business being ranked like whimsicott and aron. Speaking of those mons, Deo-D and Forretress still have way too much competition as suicide leads and just, why? Frankly, I think we could unrank arc fire, whimsicott (but i won't keep bringing this up because the situation of this being a terrible mon won't change and it's not at least stupid to even look at like aron), forretress, deo-d, sableye, maybe arc flying, and chansey (if we're unranking the worse stuff then blissey is always better especially with gengar rise). That still leaves most of C rank untouched but at least removing some of the stuff wasting space and making D- seem more attractive helps to thin out the VR.

Oh and I talked about scarf kyogre a while back and people were generally against it dropping too much but it's still felt so terribly niche and unwanted. Consider the fact that it's a good switch into practically nothing so you're always relegated to revenge killing and outclassed in any other regard, needs serious support just to remove the two primals unless you want to flip a coin with sheer cold for this mon to be effective, is really easy to chip away at (its few passable switchins can status it, priority, priority, priority), and is generally revenge killing in a 1v1 scenario rather than actually doing any sort of reliable cleaning on its own. I wouldn't mind seeing it switching places with Ferrothorn, which it seems like people are starting to give more recognition to like skarmory? It can be a real pain and most things that come in to kill it like Pdon don't have reliable recovery and won't enjoy a simple leech seed, and it can keep spiking on utility arceus formes which make it better in that regard than skarm. The fact is that we have a shit ton of steel types in the high ranks, and right now i think they go klefki > steelceus (puke) > skarmory > ferrothorn > dialga > mega scizor > genesect. There are somehow 4 steels in B-, but ferro is the best of them and its rank should reflect that better (which isn't a perfect argument for it to rise, but more a comparison).

tldr because my posts always end up being too long

Support: Rachi to C, Deo-S to B-, Arc Dark to whatever
Do not support: Aegislash
we could Unrank: Fireceus, Chansey, Deo-D, Forry, Sableye, Whimsicott, maybe Flyceus
Ferrothorn B- --> B, Kyogre B --> B-
 
Viability Updates~

Code:
Cloyster - Unranked to D
Jirachi - C- to C
Deoxys-Speed - C+ to B-
Dark Arceus - C+ to C-
Fire Arceus - D to Unranked
Chansey - D to Unranked
Deoxys-D - D to Unranked
Forretress - D to Unranked
Ferrothorn - B- to B
Kyogre - B to B-
Sableye - C- to D

- I will get to fixing role compendium, the sprites went yucky for a lot of megas.
- New Diancie AG Analysis
- Baton Pass Article
 
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It was my honour providing you with a few ladder milestones. You've really done a lot of work and if you need a few more or other help, I am there to help you!

Good luck!

-TenucSkenuck
 
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Been meaning to do this for a while now ...

Nominating Groudon C+ --> B


Most people automatically assume based-Don = garbage when compared with its primal form, but based Don has some great things going for it. I love it when random AG ladderers tell me I'm using Groudon wrong, apparently it needs a Red Orb to be viable :')

  • single type ground --> not hit by EQ super effectively makes it a fantastic physical wall. Noteworhy calc: +2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Groudon: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • still incredibly bulky: ev'ed to survive Deoxys-A's psycho boost, Choice-Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout, +1 Dragon Ascent etc. Very few thing OHKO Don, meaning it can tank a hit and retaliate/set up with para/rocks/phaze
  • has item slot open: e.g. lum berry is useful to absorb status once e.g. cripple Darkrai and slaughter Klefki
Groudon gets the job done. It does have some set backs, such as the inability to break Bulky Arceus, Giratina, etc. and dying to special powerhouses (Primal Kyogre, LO Yveltal among others). Groudon appreciates a solid wall breaker to form a core, LO Mewtwo and Band-MRay are great partners.

Groudon has seen close to no ladder usage. Alexmar runs some funky SD variant and Zangooser has a red card Don team. Perhaps people, like the cancerous Clefable, are unaware?

Looking forward to hearing back from the AG fam :)

as a side note, please consider unranking/dropping the following mons: Mega Mewtwo, Mega Scizor, Mega Lucario, Mega Metagross, Arceus Electric and Gliscor
 
Updated role compendium! Old one had some archaic categories and a lot of off things like CB landorus or generally unviable things like whimsicott. I added a couple of new categories traditionally found on compendiums, updated this, and sprited it on my own so I'm sure people will want some changes because I'm the dude who says a lot of stuff ppl disagree with (or I just forgot stuff) so go ahead and suggest/implement changes. The cutoff was C+ unless something has a very particular and important niche like thundurus being important in klefki checks or quagsire as an Ekiller check. Tried to organize them by general viability so you don't see megaray last in a list anywhere but generally what was easiest, with Arceus formes always first.
Mega Pokemon:
384-mega.png
094-mega.png
719-mega.png
150-mega-x.png
302-mega.png
150-mega-y.png
212-mega.png
448-mega.png
115-mega.png
376-mega.png
373-mega.png
080-mega.png


Stealth Rock:
493.png
(Normal Water Ground Poison Steel)
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
386-speed.png
227.png
598.png
248.png
483.png
383.png
437.png
645-therian.png
242.png


Spikes:
227.png
707.png
598.png
545.png
386-speed.png


Toxic Spikes:
545.png


Hazard Removal:
493.png
(Normal Fairy Ghost Ground Water Rock Dragon Poison)
227.png
487-origin.png
487.png
380.png


Suicide Leads:
386-speed.png
545.png
235.png
530.png


Wish:
036.png
385.png
594.png
242.png


Heal Bell / Aromatherapy:
716.png
036.png
385.png
242.png
719-mega.png


Healing Wish:
036.png
492-sky.png
380.png
385.png


Magic Bounce:
302-mega.png
719-mega.png
196.png


U-turn / Volt Switch / Baton Pass:
717.png
644.png
212-mega.png
649.png
385.png
645-therian.png
257.png


Baton Pass Teams:
196.png
257.png
145.png
134.png
122.png
426.png
235.png
545.png


Wallbreakers / Stallbreakers:
384-mega.png
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
491.png
250.png
094-mega.png
717.png
Primal_Kyogre_Mini_Sprite.png
150.png
386-attack.png
150-mega-x.png
492-sky.png
150-mega-y.png
448-mega.png
645.png
362.png


Mega Rayquaza Checks:
493.png
(Fairy Rock Dragon)
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
094-mega.png
717.png
719-mega.png
302-mega.png
249.png
483.png
248.png
383.png


Arceus (Extremekiller) Checks:
493.png
(Normal Ghost)
094-mega.png
717.png
227.png
249.png
150-mega-x.png
487.png
487-origin.png
302-mega.png
248.png
036.png
195.png
594.png


Darkrai Checks:
493.png
(Fairy)
384-mega.png
094-mega.png
150-mega-y.png
719-mega.png
716.png
250.png
Primal_Kyogre_Mini_Sprite.png
036.png
707.png
150.png
492-sky.png
649.png
383.png
248.png
242.png


Xerneas Checks:
493.png
(Steel Poison)
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
094-mega.png
250.png
212-mega.png
036.png
707.png
227.png
598.png
649.png
249.png
437.png
448-mega.png
385.png
242.png
681.png
591.png


Primal Groudon Checks:
493.png
(Water Dragon Ground)
384-mega.png
491.png
250.png
717.png
249.png
487.png
487-origin.png
383.png
Primal_Kyogre_Mini_Sprite.png
380.png
645-therian.png
594.png


Ho-Oh Checks:
493.png
(Normal Ground Water Rock)
384-mega.png
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
719-mega.png
717.png
Primal_Kyogre_Mini_Sprite.png
249.png
487.png
382.png
644.png
645-therian.png
594.png


Klefki Checks:
719-mega.png
302-mega.png
384-mega.png
493.png
Primal_Kyogre_Mini_Sprite.png
250.png
383.png
642.png


Priority Users:
493.png
(Normal Ghost Ground Steel)
384-mega.png
386-attack.png
717.png
487-origin.png
212-mega.png
448-mega.png
115-mega.png


Choice Scarf:
716.png
385.png
644.png
649.png
382.png
645-therian.png


Choice Band:
384-mega.png
250.png


Choice Specs:
384-mega.png
492-sky.png
646-white.png


Setup Sweepers

Swords Dance:
493.png
(Normal Ground Ghost Poison Steel)
384-mega.png
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
212-mega.png
448-mega.png
257.png


Calm Mind:
493.png
(Fairy Ground Steel Ghost Rock)
150.png
716.png
Primal_Kyogre_Mini_Sprite.png
150-mega-y.png


Double Team / Minimize:
491.png
249.png
036.png
707.png
235.png
242.png
426.png


Moody:
362.png
235.png


Other:
491.png
Nasty Plot
716.png
Geomancy
373-mega.png
384-mega.png
Dragon Dance
Primal_Groudon_Mini_Sprite.png
Rock Polish
150-mega-x.png
Bulk Up
 
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Updated role compendium! Old one had some archaic categories and a lot of off things like CB landorus or generally unviable things like whimsicott. I added a couple of new categories traditionally found on compendiums, updated this, and sprited it on my own so I'm sure people will want some changes because I'm the dude who says a lot of stuff ppl disagree with (or I just forgot stuff) so go ahead and suggest/implement changes. The cutoff was C+ unless something has a very particular and important niche like thundurus being important in klefki checks or quagsire as an Ekiller check. Tried to organize them by general viability so you don't see megaray last in a list anywhere but generally what was easiest, with Arceus formes always first.
Mega Pokemon:
View attachment 60693View attachment 60694View attachment 60700View attachment 60699View attachment 60697View attachment 60698View attachment 60707 View attachment 60704 View attachment 60695 View attachment 60709 View attachment 60710 View attachment 60711

Stealth Rock:
View attachment 60701(Normal Water Ground Poison Steel) View attachment 60744View attachment 60712 View attachment 60714 View attachment 60716 View attachment 60767 View attachment 60766 View attachment 60749View attachment 60764View attachment 60727View attachment 60720

Spikes:
View attachment 60714 View attachment 60715 View attachment 60716 View attachment 60713 View attachment 60712

Toxic Spikes:
View attachment 60713

Hazard Removal:
View attachment 60701(Normal Fairy Ghost Ground Water Rock Dragon Poison)View attachment 60714 View attachment 60771View attachment 60770View attachment 60725

Suicide Leads:
View attachment 60712 View attachment 60713 View attachment 60718 View attachment 60719

Wish:
View attachment 60706 View attachment 60721 View attachment 60722 View attachment 60720

Heal Bell / Aromatherapy:
View attachment 60702 View attachment 60706 View attachment 60721 View attachment 60720 View attachment 60700

Healing Wish:
View attachment 60706 View attachment 60724 View attachment 60725

Magic Bounce:
View attachment 60697 View attachment 60700 View attachment 60726

U-turn / Volt Switch / Baton Pass:
View attachment 60729 View attachment 60731View attachment 60707View attachment 60732 View attachment 60721View attachment 60727 View attachment 60730

Baton Pass Teams:
View attachment 60726 View attachment 60730 View attachment 60734 View attachment 60736 View attachment 60735 View attachment 60737 View attachment 60718 View attachment 60713

Wallbreakers / Stallbreakers:
View attachment 60693View attachment 60744View attachment 60703View attachment 60705View attachment 60694View attachment 60729 View attachment 60745View attachment 60696View attachment 60717View attachment 60699View attachment 60724 View attachment 60698View attachment 60704View attachment 60728View attachment 60738

Mega Rayquaza Checks:
View attachment 60701 (Fairy Rock)View attachment 60744View attachment 60694View attachment 60729View attachment 60700 View attachment 60697 View attachment 60754View attachment 60766View attachment 60767 View attachment 60749

Arceus (Extremekiller) Checks:
View attachment 60701 (Normal Ghost)View attachment 60694 View attachment 60729View attachment 60714 View attachment 60754 View attachment 60699View attachment 60770 View attachment 60771View attachment 60697View attachment 60767View attachment 60706 View attachment 60773View attachment 60722

Darkrai Checks:
View attachment 60701 (Fairy)View attachment 60693 View attachment 60694 View attachment 60698 View attachment 60700 View attachment 60702 View attachment 60705 View attachment 60745View attachment 60706 View attachment 60708 View attachment 60724 View attachment 60732 View attachment 60749 View attachment 60767View attachment 60720

Xerneas Checks:
View attachment 60701 (Steel Poison)View attachment 60744 View attachment 60694 View attachment 60705View attachment 60707 View attachment 60706 View attachment 60708 View attachment 60714 View attachment 60716 View attachment 60732 View attachment 60754View attachment 60764View attachment 60704View attachment 60721View attachment 60720View attachment 60765 View attachment 60768

Primal Groudon Checks:
View attachment 60701 (Water Dragon Ground)View attachment 60693 View attachment 60703 View attachment 60705 View attachment 60729 View attachment 60754 View attachment 60770 View attachment 60771View attachment 60749View attachment 60747View attachment 60725View attachment 60727View attachment 60722

Ho-Oh Checks:
View attachment 60701 (Ground Water Rock)View attachment 60693 View attachment 60744View attachment 60700 View attachment 60729 View attachment 60745 View attachment 60754 View attachment 60770 View attachment 60747View attachment 60731View attachment 60727View attachment 60722

Klefki Checks:
View attachment 60700View attachment 60697View attachment 60693 View attachment 60701 View attachment 60745 View attachment 60705 View attachment 60749 View attachment 60748

Priority Users:
View attachment 60701(Normal Ghost Ground Steel)View attachment 60693 View attachment 60717 View attachment 60729 View attachment 60771View attachment 60707View attachment 60704 View attachment 60695

Choice Scarf:
View attachment 60702 View attachment 60721 View attachment 60731 View attachment 60732 View attachment 60747 View attachment 60727

Choice Band:
View attachment 60693 View attachment 60705

Choice Specs:
View attachment 60693 View attachment 60702 View attachment 60724 View attachment 60750

Setup Sweepers

Swords Dance:
View attachment 60701(Normal Ground Ghost Poison Steel)View attachment 60693 View attachment 60744View attachment 60707 View attachment 60704 View attachment 60730

Calm Mind:
View attachment 60701 (Fairy Ground Steel Ghost Rock)View attachment 60696View attachment 60702 View attachment 60745View attachment 60698

Double Team / Minimize:
View attachment 60703 View attachment 60754 View attachment 60706 View attachment 60708 View attachment 60718 View attachment 60720 View attachment 60737

Moody:
View attachment 60738 View attachment 60718

Other:
View attachment 60703Nasty Plot View attachment 60702Geomancy View attachment 60710 View attachment 60693Dragon Dance View attachment 60744Rock Polish View attachment 60699Bulk Up
So, my thoughts, at just a glance-
Dragon cues for MRay check
Normal arc for hooh check
Since when is specs Xern viable
In what world does fairyceus reliably check darkrai (sub, sludge bomb), but regular mew two doesn't? Did you mean lumcoat regular arc?
How does regular ogre check PDon? Sheer cold? (If you just couldn't find the primal sprite, I can give the serebii Link/you can add a -p)
Possibly Mew for baton pass; definitely add Jirachi to healing wish


It's definitely much better than the old one, though.

Edit: also mgar doesn't check MRay w/ rocks
 
Been meaning to do this for a while now ...
Nominating Groudon C+ --> B

Most people automatically assume based-Don = garbage when compared with its primal form, but based Don has some great things going for it. I love it when random AG ladderers tell me I'm using Groudon wrong, apparently it needs a Red Orb to be viable :')

  • single type ground --> not hit by EQ super effectively makes it a fantastic physical wall. Noteworhy calc: +2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Groudon: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • still incredibly bulky: ev'ed to survive Deoxys-A's psycho boost, Choice-Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout, +1 Dragon Ascent etc. Very few thing OHKO Don, meaning it can tank a hit and retaliate/set up with para/rocks/phaze
  • has item slot open: e.g. lum berry is useful to absorb status once e.g. cripple Darkrai and slaughter Klefki
Groudon gets the job done. It does have some set backs, such as the inability to break Bulky Arceus, Giratina, etc. and dying to special powerhouses (Primal Kyogre, LO Yveltal among others). Groudon appreciates a solid wall breaker to form a core, LO Mewtwo and Band-MRay are great partners.

Groudon has seen close to no ladder usage. Alexmar runs some funky SD variant and Zangooser has a red card Don team. Perhaps people, like the cancerous Clefable, are unaware?

Looking forward to hearing back from the AG fam :)

as a side note, please consider unranking/dropping the following mons: Mega Mewtwo, Mega Scizor, Mega Lucario, Mega Metagross, Arceus Electric and Gliscor
I love that unaware joke, hilarious. Also, I also agree on this. I've used Regular Don many times (after seeing you use it) and I find it to almost always be more entertaining to play with, and usually just as effective or even more compared to it's primal counterpart. T-Wave + Lum has been handy many times and I love seeing low ladder nubs using Earthquake on me with M-Ray. Definitely THE most underrated Pokemon I can currently think of in the AG metagame. For a Pokemon so consistent and good at what it's doing, it really deserves more usage. I'm pretty sure as long as it gets more usage and recognition in AG, its increase in ranking is inevitable.
 
Been meaning to do this for a while now ...
Nominating Groudon C+ --> B

Most people automatically assume based-Don = garbage when compared with its primal form, but based Don has some great things going for it. I love it when random AG ladderers tell me I'm using Groudon wrong, apparently it needs a Red Orb to be viable :')

  • single type ground --> not hit by EQ super effectively makes it a fantastic physical wall. Noteworhy calc: +2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Groudon: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • still incredibly bulky: ev'ed to survive Deoxys-A's psycho boost, Choice-Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout, +1 Dragon Ascent etc. Very few thing OHKO Don, meaning it can tank a hit and retaliate/set up with para/rocks/phaze
  • has item slot open: e.g. lum berry is useful to absorb status once e.g. cripple Darkrai and slaughter Klefki
Groudon gets the job done. It does have some set backs, such as the inability to break Bulky Arceus, Giratina, etc. and dying to special powerhouses (Primal Kyogre, LO Yveltal among others). Groudon appreciates a solid wall breaker to form a core, LO Mewtwo and Band-MRay are great partners.

Groudon has seen close to no ladder usage. Alexmar runs some funky SD variant and Zangooser has a red card Don team. Perhaps people, like the cancerous Clefable, are unaware?

Looking forward to hearing back from the AG fam :)

as a side note, please consider unranking/dropping the following mons: Mega Mewtwo, Mega Scizor, Mega Lucario, Mega Metagross, Arceus Electric and Gliscor
Also since I have the time and hexandwhy reminded me, my response to this-
Groudon is definitely good, but I have a couple of arguments with your claims.
First off, scarf ogre Ohkos with water spout, even with assault vest and timid
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Groudon in Rain: 422-498 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Secondly, despite the differences when I look at don I want a reason to use it over PDon. Eq neutrality is nice it is only really useful vs arc and PDon, seeing as MRay carries dragon ascent.
The bulk is nice, butpdon does all of those as well. The item slot is the best argument, but it's bassically a reverse of the mmy argument, except with the advantages going the other way. Lump is great, but Pdon already reks keys, and stalk PDon does a number on Rai. I'm not sure it doesn't belong in B rank, but it has a ton of pressure in the form of competition. Definitely to at least b-, though.


As for the other part, I think MMX is fine where it is, as is MMY- they have good niches, and aren't highly ranked either. Gliscor is also already listed really low already, and has some merit as a status sponge and physical wall. I'm all for Arc Electric going down, though.
I don't really know enough about how the steel Megas play to have an opinion.
 
Yeah I really think B rank is just ridiculous for a mon whose main selling points are ground neutrality and having lum when you sacrifice, y'know, being Pdon. It gets the job done but Pdon gets the job done better most of the time (like "still being bulky" isn't really a selling point when you're trying to make up for being less bulky than your counterpart). C+ is fairly ideal for a mon which will perform well and clearly has the niche of checking opposing Pdon and sorta kinda groundceus/ray/ekiller better even if you cant do much back but is outclassed on a fair amount of teams so you don't actually need to use it in most cases
Also will update compendium with most of that stuff, non primal sprite was accident, gar is a less traditional check but removing a slightly weakened unboosted one is pretty significant in just getting it out of the way, and fairyceus can still check taunt variants a bit esp if it's coat fairyceus so it seems fair to have
 
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