OU Aromaticity [(Sand Stall peaked #1)]

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Meru, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. Meru

    Meru

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    AROMATICITY
    [​IMG]
    [size=+1]Introduction[/size]​

    [box]Love me, hate me, idgaf. Most people will recognize this team from laddering during various suspect voting rounds over the past year. Unfortunately, I hadn't been able to get around to posting a RMT about it until just now, as I've been busy, which brings me to the name of the title. Many of you creepily know that the reason why I was too busy to post a RMT was because I'd been recently accepted to UCLA as a Chemistry major, so I decided to base the team name around that. Aromaticity has to do with how six ordinary carbon atoms held together in a ring with alternating carbon-carbon double bonds contain much higher stability than expected. Similar to that concept, this team operates off of the sheer synergy between these six ordinary pokemon, using zero S-rank threats and two non-OU pokemon.

    The idea to put together this team began once Hippowdon was banned from UU. I always found that Hippowdon himself wasn't overpowering, but the synergy he had with a lot of top UU threats was so disgustingly strong that it caused him to get banned. I decided to take this synergy for a spin in the OU environment and found the Hippowdon/Stoutland/Roserade/Bulky Water core to be just as strong, but with the added aspect of being able to have an amazing spinblocker, Latias, Skarmory, and not having to use Roserade for spikes. Not to be one of those people that insists on their pioneering, but Stoutland began to pop up on a lot more teams once I peaked #1 with this team, and is now considered a legitimate B-rank threat in the viability ranking thread. With the recent bans of Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Deoxys-D, this team has only become more difficult to break. As a result, I'd like to present to you, Aromaticity.[/box]
    [size=+1]In-Depth[/size]​
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    [​IMG]
    HIPPOWDON @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Sand Stream
    Nature: Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
    EVs: 252 HP | 4 Def | 252 SpD
    Moves: Stealth Rock | Slack Off | Earthquake | Whirlwind
    [box]Tyranitar eat your heart out. Hippowdon serves as a much better sandstorm inducer for this team due to its reliable recovery and its durability against many top threats, and especially for its insusceptibility to Dugtrio's trapping shenanigans. The specially defensive spread is really good in this meta, allowing it to take on pokemon from both spectrums. As one of the sturdiest mixed walls in the game, many teams run out of ways to overcome Hippowdon, allowing Whirlwind spam to rack up damage for a Stoutland clean.

    Stealth Rock on Hippowdon has its pros and cons. While Hippowdon has many opportunities to put it up against teams of all archetypes, it lacks the offensive presence to deter Xatu from coming in. Jellicent, Latias, and Stoutland can all punish Xatu from coming in, but they can all be outpredicted in the process, giving the Xatu user an early game advantage in momentum. Hippowdon's weaknesses to Water, Ice, and Grass are not as crippling to the team, as those flaws are easily covered by teammates. I'd say the only crippling flaw of Hippowdon is his free invitation for Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn to come in unscathed and set down Spikes, which is exacerbated by my lack of Rapid Spin, meaning that any layers that do wind up on my field will remain there until the end of a match.

    However, Hippowdon's synergy with Stoutland cannot be understated. With his impressive mixed bulk, opponents will need to rely on power boosts to break through him. When the opponent has to utilize boosts such like Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Choice Band, and Choice Specs, they wind up slow, allowing Stoutland to pick them off for an easy OHKO. Similarly, many opponents that boost their speed, such as Scarf Terrakion, Agility Thundurus, and Rock Polish Landorus, cannot hope to OHKO Hippowdon, getting phazed in the process and having to suffer more hazard damage the next time they enter the field. The only pokemon that can outspeed Stoutland and OHKO Hippowdon is Keldeo, which has three of its strongest checks present throughout my team. All in all, Hippowdon is a solid foundation to the team by preventing the opponent from winning just through sheer abuse of speed boosting threats.[/box]
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    ROSERADE @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP | 48 Def | 16 SpD | 192 Spd
    Moves: Sleep Powder | Toxic Spikes | Giga Drain | Hidden Power Fire
    [box]The idea to implement Roserade on the team came from witnessing the synergy she provided during the BW1 days where the HippoStout core was still legal in UU. However, she becomes much more lethal in the OU environment, as she can now set down Toxic Spikes without having them soaked up, as Poison-types are far less omnipresent. Roserade usually leads the game, as an early Sleep Powder and/or Toxic Spikes can provide such an astounding early-game advantage that prevents the opponent from making a comeback. Roserade is also synergistic with the team in that she provides an early-game check to both Keldeo and Breloom that isn't weak to CBtar. Her ability to alleviate offensive pressure from those two and Rotom-W allows Latias to hide in the wing until Tyranitar has been sufficiently crippled, usually in part due to the Toxic Spikes she provides. In fact, this powerful utility provides heavy assistance in winning opposing weather wars, as none of the inducers are immune to the Toxic Spikes she provides.

    The given EV spread allows Roserade to do many things. 192 Spd EVs in conjunction with the 30 IV from HP Fire give her the jump on Jolly Breloom and Jolly Skarmory leads to prevent an early-game Spore. It also helps against other Jolly Cloyster, and Timid Politoed. The Def EVs are important to provide a Breloom check, prevent a surprise death from first-turn Scarftar's Stone Edge, and also cushion against Scizor's Bullet Punch and Pursuit. Her ability to survive against all of these physical attacks allows her to toy with them to the point where they can no longer check Latias or Stoutland.

    Roserade's strongest aspect as a hazard layer is her claim to fame in the UU environment which is coverage that prevents Spinners and opposing Spikers from having their way with her. Ironically, in the OU environment, this coverage is simultaneously her biggest downfall, as it gives a free invitation for Dragons to come in unscathed once Sleep Clause has been activated, which is bad as my team lacks the appropriate resists to neutralize these threats. Another one of her downfalls is her mediocre performance against Sun teams, which Hippowdon and Latias help to alleviate. The early-game advantage that Roserade secures for my team outweighs her downsides, as many teams are not equipped to handle the utility she provides.[/box]
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    [​IMG]
    JELLICENT @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Water Absorb
    Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
    EVs: 248 HP | 156 Def | 104 Spd
    Moves: Recover | Scald | Shadow Ball | Taunt
    [box]Although there were many better bulky waters that I would have loved to be able to implement into my team, Jellicent is by far my favorite spinblocker to use on stall teams. Any of these other bulky waters would mean choosing a different spinblocker, none of which have the reliable recovery and bulk that Jellicent has. This bulk and reliable recovery gives Jellicent the ability to prevent every spinner from removing my entry hazards except Offensive Starmie, Sub/Toxic Tentacruel in the rain and the rare Sandslash in the sand. Against Starmie and Tentacruel, aggressive measures must be taken to secure a constant Sandstorm, as otherwise Stoutland will be unable to Pursuit Starmie afterwards and Tentacruel will be able to outheal the weakening that Jellicent's Shadow Ball inflicts. Sandslash is almost always ran on a team without Toxic Spikes absorption, so an early game set-up by Roserade puts him on a timer that he most likely won't beat. Even if he manages to take down Jellicent, he gets immediately forced out by Stoutland, causing him to have to come in and take hazard damage again while trying to find an opportunity to spin.

    Aside from spinblocking duties, Jellicent is important in that it serves a purpose against every team archetype. Water Absorb is the preferred ability to take on rain teams, as Jellicent is never 2HKO'd by Specs Politoed, and even if it's within KO range, the mere presence of Jellicent prevents Hydro Pump spam, lest it get a chance to heal back up. Against sand teams, it serves to weaken Reuniclus and burn Tyranitar/Ferrothorn on Sand teams. Relying on Scald to burn might not be everybody's cup of tea, but with my style of play, I've found it better to take the risk, as Shadow Ball provides too much utility. Not to mention that having to rely on Will-o-Wisp is one of my biggest pet peeves. Against sun teams, it is able to tank high-power Fire moves from Victini-esque threats and prevent Donphan/Forry spins. Even against opposing stall teams it has a niche, as its fast Taunt in conjunction with the right hazards can oftentimes secure an early game victory.

    The benchmark chosen for my Jellicent was to outspeed Max Spd Wobbuffet to Taunt any of its attempts to Encore. The rest is put into physical bulk to give it a chance to burn SD/Roost Scizor, as well as cushion various CB Pursuits. Even though its top three switch-ins (Rotom-W, Celebi, Hydreigon) are all specially-based, those can all be taken on by teammates, with the exception of Hydreigon, who must be properly scouted. To be honest, I don't see any appeal for Specially Defensive Jellicent.[/box]
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    SKARMORY @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Sturdy
    Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
    EVs: 252 HP | 232 Def | 24 Spd
    Moves: Roost | Spikes | Whirlwind | Brave Bird
    [box]Of all of the OU Spikers available, Skarmory ended up making the best fit, as a second phazer was deemed preferable to provide further weakening of Stoutland's counters. Skarmory is able to handle a lot of bulky sand threats that Stoutland has trouble 2HKOing or even 3HKOing such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Garchomp. His ability to use them as set-up fodder helps to punish the opponent for their presence, as although they can prevent Stoutland's sweep, they'll have to choose between staying in and getting Spiked on in order to heal up to be able to take on Stoutland's assaults, or U-turning out to prevent Skarmory's spikes, with a large chunk of health missing. While Gliscor can carry Taunt to deal with Skarmory, it often means the sacrifice of Protect, giving Stoutland an easier time overcoming him. Gliscor is really rare in this meta anyway.

    Skarmory, while shining against opposing sand teams, is not dead weight against the other weathers. Skarmory uses the recent outbreak of SpDef Celebi as set-up fodder, as none of them run HP Fire in the rain. Skarmory is also fine with spiking up alongside Ferrothorn, as rain teams cannot abuse their spikes with phazing, leading to their Spikes being much less potent than mine. Skarmory can also abuse an early-game Sturdy against most Sun teams to kamikaze its premier sweepers such as Venusaur or Volcarona down with it, as many of them often lack an early-game Stealth Rock.

    While Magnezone is threatening, DragMag teams haven't been running any anti-weather techniques since the Excadrill days, meaning that they're usually prone to taking quite a few assaults from Stoutland. Alongside the massively underrated recovery of Leftovers, the choice was clear that Shed Shell would not be considered.[/box]
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    LATIAS @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP | 4 Def | 252 Spd
    Moves: Roost | Calm Mind | Dragon Pulse | Hidden Power Fire
    [box]Although not the sixth member in the order of this RMT, Latias was the sixth member chosen for the team. Her ability to maintain a defensive presence while outspeeding the majority of OU, especially the 100-108 benchmark, is what solidified my choice over something like Hydreigon, which was much too slow to even consider. The presence of a fast and speedy attacker on a stall team is priceless, as many times you'll want to take out a threat without having to incur a hit. In fact, her speed is the difference between how shaky of a check Latias was against Thundurus-I vs. how solid of a check it is against Thundurus-T.

    Since Roserade often kicks it to the curb early, Latias usually makes her debut mid-to-late-game to pick up on special tanking duties. Latias is the only one on the team that is able to switch into Sheer Force Landorus and not wind up 2HKO'd. She also takes on other threats that Roserade can not, such as Heatran without Toxic/Roar, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, NP Celebi, and more. She then differentiates herself from Roserade by threatening a Calm Mind sweep after early game antics have appropriately weakened or eliminated her counters. Hidden Power Fire fits into her set as it gives her the ability to weaken Steel-types like Scizor and Ferrothorn, either for her own sweep or to lighten the burden Stoutland will have to take on. Together, they form something of a psuedo-Salamence/Rayquaza core, where they both hit from opposing ends of the spectrum while simultaneously knocking out each other's mutual Steel-Type counters.[/box]
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    STOUTLAND @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Sand Rush
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
    EVs: 252 Atk | 4 Def | 252 Spd
    Moves: Return | Superpower | Pursuit | Wild Charge
    [box]Meet the most awkwardly tiered pokemon in the entire game. Although Stoutland has recently fallen to the depths of NU, it simultaneously manages to boast B-rank on the OU Viability Ranking thread. The mere presence of Sandstorm makes CB Stoutland one of the top five fastest viable pokemon in the tier, only being outsped by Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Keldeo, and Scarf Lati@s. However, unlike those four pokemon, Stoutland is able to wield a boosting nature and a boosting item, giving it much more power. Aside from those four pokemon, the only thing other thing that goes before Stoutland is priority, which he has more than enough bulk to take as long as it's not Mach Punch.

    In addition to the obvious cleaning duties, many people manage to overlook another enticing aspect of Stoutland, which is the trapping support he offers. His Pursuit serves to eliminate weakened 110+ base Speed threats to Latias' sweep, such as Latios, Starmie, Gengar, and Sashless Kazam. The utility of his Pursuit isn't limited to just fast and frail Psychic/Ghost-types. Hippowdon can often sacrifice itself to an attack of a weakened Politoed or Ninetales to have Stoutland Pursuit them to a health where hazards prevent future switch-ins that'll change the weather. Due to this, I find all of Stoutland's moves to be staple, except Wild Charge, which can be interchanged for similarly situational moves such as Ice Fang, Fire Fang, and Crunch.[/box]
  2. Meru

    Meru

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    680
    Importable (open)
    Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Slack Off
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Whirlwind

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind
    - Brave Bird

    Roserade (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 24 SDef / 192 Spd
    Careful Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Stoutland @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit
    - Wild Charge

    Jellicent (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt





    Threat List

    • [​IMG]Sand Stall[​IMG]
      Most opposing Sand Stalls lack a poison absorber, so since they cannot OHKO Roserade, she gets early Toxic Spikes putting them on a very strict timer, even if they have a spinner. Forretress can only win with ridiculous double switching since sleep powder usually takes out Forry or Tyranitar since they can't lose their win conditions.
    • [​IMG]Sand Offense[​IMG]
      Tyranitar can't lead, so your Stealth Rock will get up before them. Volt Turn cores can be broken by both early-game Roserade and mid-to-late game Latias. Tyranitar can't eliminate all three of Jellicent, Latias, and Stoutland, as it usually succumbs to Toxic Spikes, since Sand can't run a synergizing Poison-type. Usually only Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Keldeo to outspeed Stoutland too, so he can cause a lot of antics then when those two switch in attempting to revenge kill Stoutland, they're both met with hard counters (Skarmory and Hippowdon for Terrakion, with Jellicent taking Choiced Close Combats, and Roserade/Latias/Jellicent cockblocking Scarf Keldeo.
    • [​IMG]Rain Stall[​IMG]
      With just SR up, and forcing a constant Sand Stream, you'll never have Jellicent die to Tentacruel's Toxic, as Shadow Ball will be able to wear it down enough even with Substitute to where Pursuit is in range. Don't be afraid to let it spin as they tend to lack a good win condition against you as long as you keep Jellicent alive, as eventually Tentacruel won't live with its Rain Dish constantly robbed.
    • [​IMG]Rain Offense[​IMG]
      Learning how to win the fight against Tentacruel is again key. With use of Sleep Powder to knock out a threat, and locating where you can put up hazards, you'll force endless hazards upon your opponent. Maintaining a constant Sand Stream is harder since Hippowdon can't directly switch into SpecsToed, but not much can switch into Jellicent either. Tornadus-I can be annoying, but if you get up SR early and force him to kill something in the sand, he'll eat a Pursuit. Again, constant Sand Stream is key to neutralize their antics.
    • [​IMG]Sun Stall[​IMG]
      Without Gothitelle, they have no way to stop a constant Sand Stream from running, and eventually they'll be overwhelmed by Spikes and lack of Recovery. Throw in early-game Roserade on certain key support Pokemon that are easy to force out and they'll succumb. Sableye can be annoying but he can also be taken down by a Giga Drain crit, which almost always happens.
    • [​IMG]Sun Offense[​IMG]
      If there is no Forretress, and it looks like they have something that can reliable Stealth Rock against my team, then I might put out Skarmory turn 1 just to get a Spike, as it can often be a deciding factor, and Skarmory is useless unless there's something unusual like a Sawsbuck. Roserade can be sacced to bring in pokemon safely, and between Latias and Roserade, both of them can bring down Venusaur, or at least weaken it to where Hippowdon can be sacced so Stoutland can clean.
    • [​IMG]Hail Offense[​IMG]
      Hail is really annoying, as nothing like directly switching into Abomasnow. However, it's extremely hazard weak, so early game Skarmory can sacrifice if they attempt to lead with Abomasnow. Nidoqueen can absorb Toxic Spikes, but it gets worn down really fast by Hail. Kyurem-B or Kyurem-B are both problematic but they're slower than Latias and hazard weak, so they can usually be forced out enough to lose Saving Skarmory to have one free Whirlwind on them helps. Can be frustrating though.
    • [​IMG]Hail Stall[​IMG]
      Most Poison-types on Hail teams don't last long, and Hail Stall has even less threats that can overwhelm you, so it should be easy to come out on top. This type of team is pretty rare to be honest. Tentacruel can be their spinner, but beating Tentacruel while robbing it of its Rain Dish is one thing you have to be really good at when you run this team, so when it doesn't even have access to Rain Dish, the fight should be much easier.
    • [​IMG]Drag-Mag Offense[​IMG]
      Make sure when/if you lose Skarmory that you at least get two Spikes up, because that helps a lot with wearing down Magnezone, who is their only Normal-resist. Roserade can outspeed if they don't Volt Switch and cause a bunch of antics, while Hippowdon can take on at least one dragon. Latias can sneak in with its blazing speed and get a Dragon Pulse KO in. After all of this various weakening, Stoutland should be able to clean, as only Scarf Latios outspeeds, but it doesn't OHKO with Timid Draco Meteor. Be careful about switching Hippowdon into a Choice Specs Flash Cannon, however, as it 2HKOs.
  3. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,609
    Hello Meru! Nice team!

    So this team is really really solid, nice job on it. Being that your team is more defensive / stalliah in nature, you might find it har to overcome some common stall counters, such as CM Espeon or TR Reuniclus. Focus Sash Alakazam may also be quite a hassle if you happen to lose the weather war. All three pokemon are immune to your stalling techniques and each have their own way of getting past the weaker actual attacks of this team. For instance, TR Reuniclus can tank an EQ or sludge bomb, set TR, and then hit things SE with Psychic / Fighting / Ghost coverage. To help you handle these threats, you can definitely try Crunch over Wild Charge or Pursuit on Stoutland. Crunch lets you hit these pokemon SE, as well as revenge unsuspecting Gengar / Lati@s / Starmie. It's a bit stronger than Pursuit, which is ideal.

    Your Jellicent spread also looks kinda weird. I don't see the point of investing in speed to beat Blastoise, I mean lol this isn't UU; nobody uses Blastoise. Just use a normal spread of 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe Bold. That lets you outspeed Choice Band Scizor and burn it with Scald. The rest is put into Defense for even more bulk. 248 is a good HP number as it minimozes Spikes damage.

    Also, try Jolly on Stoutland so you can outspeed Scarfed base 110's and up- as well as be able to outspeed and revenge as many threats as possible. This is important as you have no way to stop pokemon like NP Thundy-T from otherwise ripping holes in your team.

    Other than that, you look pretty great. Nice job with the peak!
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    Just here to say that 88 Speed EVs can be used on Jellicent to outspeed defensive Politoed and Taunt it before it can use Toxic on Jellicent. This is also useful to Taunt Skarmory and prevent it from setting up entry hazards.
  5. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2011
    Messages:
    944
    Just gonna point out that Jolly Stoutland hits like a turkey sandwich and that Scarfed base 110s are virtually nonexistant except for the rare Scarflatios and Scarfgar, so I think Adamant's far superior. I do agree with the bit about the Jellicent though. Jellicent has p mediocre/above avg bulk as is and you still have to predict a bit to prevent a rapid spin if it comes in on a poke other Jellicent, plus as Electrolyte said it's sort of rare and I think the investment doesn't equal the reward here. I'd just run enough to outspeed CB Tyranitar, Politoed, Skarm, which is like the 185 mark, maybe put Will O Wisp on over Shadow Ball so you can burn Tar but I guess that's personal preference. Anyways Meru I really like this team, I remember Princess Bri using it vs me back in BW1 and it: owns. There's not many big changes you could make without disrupting the nature of the team because you really need Sleep Powder to gain the early advantage and all that and Stoutland with offensive presence. Latios looks kind of annoying but I guess it can't play as aggressively with Dmeteors because it risks Stoutland trapping and pursuiting it, Zam+Tyranitar looks kinda gay for this team too but it's definitely manageable. You could probably remedy this with SpDef Bi/Heatran or Gastrodon/Heatran over Rose and Latias but that might make the team a bit too passive, just something to think about I guess lol.

    [​IMG]
    Jellicent (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spd [that gets you to 184 spe]
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Recover
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball / Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
  6. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2012
    Messages:
    877
    Hi there
    It is a very interesting and very effective team, I appreciate much the stall teams because I love this style of game, I can't really rate your team cauze it seems very correct, you can counter most of the metagame OverUsed easily, then you have the Entry Hazards to protect yourself and sweep easily with Stoutland or Revenge Kill.

    I noticed that you have Jellicent @Taunt + Shadow Ball, I think it is to counter Reuniclus CM no? But with your spread you can't wall him completely, I explain you: first Reuniclus can set up easily on your team (Roserade/Hippodown/Latias/Stoutland (Blocked) /Skarmory) so you can not prevent him to use Calm Mind, you'll be forced to come on him with Jellicent when it will have a Calm Mind, but as I say, your spread can not counter Reuniclus after a Calm mind (+ 1 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 108 + Def Jellicent)(: 166-196 (41.19 - 48.63%) - guaranteed 3HKO) then if the opponent has a trapper such as Scizor or Tyranitar you'll be very disadvantaged, then this is very common.

    I suggest you this spread on Jellicent (252 HP/206 Def/54 Speed) with this spread you can counter Jellicent more easily (+ 1 0 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 206 + Def Jellicent: 148-175 (36.72 - 43.42%) - 99.39% chance to 3HKO) and you can resist pursuit of Scizor Bander/Tyranitar Bander also then you can anticipate and use scald to burn as you tank easily pursuit without a switch.

    Good Luck

    ~Leftiez
  7. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,581
    Hi there,

    Just some thoughts about your team. First of all, as Electrolyte already said, your team has some problem against Psychic-types such as Alakazam, Espeon and Reuniclus and against Gengar as well, which can all damage your whole team with their STAB and with their coverage moves (Gengar, for example, can hit hard your whole team with Shadow Ball and Focus Blast and also Reuniclus can be troublesome with Psychic and Focus Blast). Therefore, you may try Crunch instead of Pursuit on your Stoutland which let you to always OHKO Gengar (which usually don't switch against Stoutland because it fears your Pursuit) and to hit harder Reuniclus too. I shouldn't remove Wild Charge because it's an useful move on Stoutland since it allows you to hit Skarmory and bulky Water-types such as Politoed, Tentacruel and so on too. Now speaking about Jellicent, you should consider to use Will-O-Wisp instead of Shadow Ball, it's usually much more useful than Shadow Ball because it allows Jellicent to burn both Tyranitar and Scizor, which can beat easily your current Jellicent with their Pursuit. Staying on the topic of Jellicent, you should also try to use an EV spread of EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 Spd because you don't need much EVs on Speed since you only should outspeed Choice Band Tyranitar with 104 EVs on Speed (which is the most common Tyranitar nowadays) and this EV spread should allow Jellicent to have more staying power, which is always useful for a defensive Pokemon like it.

    If you decide to use Will-O-Wisp on Jellicent, then you should try to use another move instead of Hidden Power Fire on Latias since now you can burn Ferrothorn, Scizor, Jirachi and other similiar Steel-types Pokemon with Jellicent's Will-O-Wisp and then use them as setup fodder for your Calm Mind Latias. I think that all Substitute, Refresh and Roar are good move for Calm Mind Latias on your team so try all of them and see what happens during your matches (probably Roar is the best option for your team since it allows you to take advantage of the entry hazards which you put on opponent's field, but also Substitute and Refresh are nice to avoid some annoying status such as burn, badly poison and paralysis since they are all troublesome for Latias so yeah try all of them and see what's the best option for your team).

    As last thing, you should try a different EV spread with a different nature on your Stoutland. An EV spread of EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd with a Jolly Nature let you to outspeed Terrakion, Keldeo and Latios, which aren't a problem for your team but they can all stop your Stoutland sweep. Just for information, this EV spread lets you to outspeed Dragonite after two Dragon Dances and Mamoswine even if sandstorm isn't up too, so you may try it and see how it works on your team.

    Good luck :toast:
  8. Meru

    Meru

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    Just to address some of these rates...

    Alakazam
    Alakazam is not a threat to this team. He cannot get past SpDef Hippowdon without Grass Knot, and if he's LO, he dies to Stoutland's Pursuit.

    CM Espeon
    Lol. You never see this on the ladder. It's not even viable. And it cannot get past Hippowdon without Grass Knot, and dies to Stoutland's Pursuit.

    Crunch over Pursuit on Stoutland
    Definitely not. I don't know if you guys are just trying to get me to correct all of my Pokemon to be exactly like Smogon analyses, but Pursuit offers far too much utility for me to simply discard it for a non-STAB Crunch that can easily be switched out of. Also a horrible idea with Justified running around everywhere.

    Gengar
    Gengar is definitely not a threat to this team. I don't know why multiple people have mentioned it, as SpDef Hippowdon is one of the sturdiest counters you can get.

    Jellicent's Speed
    Yes I realize the Speed EVs are excessive, but all of you giving me a certain benchmark so that I don't lose to CBtar or Scizor don't realize that they can speed creep me back just as much. Jellicent's utility is far more useful than its bulk, which is why I find the high speed to be really important.

    Jolly Stoutland
    NOOOOOOO. As someone said before, Jolly Stoutland completely hits like a turkey sandwich. You lose out on so many important OHKOs, one of them off the top of my head being the ability to KO Lum DDNite after SR and 1 turn of SS.

    Latias's Fourth Move
    I've actually considered Roar, Refresh, and Substitute, just because they all offer utility in various circumstances, but I've found that most of the time, Latias' sweep gets stopped by not having HP Fire, to finish off a Ferrothorn, weakened Jirachi, Scizor, etc.

    Will-o-Wisp on Jellicent
    Hell no. Shadow Ball hits way too many things, and every hit counts. Lati@s, Starmie, Alakazam, Reuniclus, Gengar, Celebi, Starmie, even Breloom, Hydration Vaporeon, etc. Not to mention the accuracy on Will-o-Wisp over Scald is never worth it unless it's super necessary for a pokemon to function like Rotom-W or Sableye.
  9. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (+SAtk) Psychic vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Hippowdon (+SpDef): 45% - 53% (190 - 225 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 1% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (+SAtk) Psychic vs 252HP/16SpDef Leftovers Roserade (+SpDef): 114% - 135% (372 - 438 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 76% - 90% (257 - 302 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 248HP/0SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Jellicent (Neutral): 61% - 71% (246 - 290 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 56% - 65% (204 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    You're mostly right on Hippodown, it can just Slack Off Psychic damage. But that's a LO set, a Choice Specs set could 2HKO even with Lefties. The main point is however is that Alakazam has no problem with 4 other members of your team for the most part. It can threaten you, but just in different ways. The main point is no matter what move it's running in could probably do a large chunk of damage to two members of your team with whatever it's chosen coverage move is. The only exception to this would be if you don't switch in Stoutland into a Focus Blast, proof:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Alakazam (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 0HP/0SpDef Stoutland (Neutral): 135% - 159% (420 - 496 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    And if Alakazam doesn't switch:
    252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4HP/0Def Alakazam (Neutral): 89% - 105% (226 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 35% chance to OHKO.
    You aren't guarenteed the OHKO if it doesn't switch out, you're toying with luck on your OHKO chance and if Focus Blast misses or not. It's got serious potential to do damage to your team, Crunch would probably be the better choice over Wild Charge as it OHKO's. Also, based off your desc of Roserade it's commonly the lead, which means Hippodown may be taking some hazard damage (but then again it could not be taking any) and depending on if it's more than just SR it gives that Zam the chance to 2HKO.
  10. Dice

    Dice sonder

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    Hello, Meru!

    I have a few suggestions to give you, mainly regarding the other rates. You have ran this team for 2 years, so there isn't really much to address. First of all, Crunch isn't that great on Stoutland. A normal STAB already OHKO's Espeon and Alakazam (unless Sash'd which is walled by Hippowdon) while Crunch only gets a kill on Gengar which Pursuit can do ~80% to (aka weaken it..) and Hippowdon walls Gengar anyways. Crunch invites Lucario and Terrakion to come in, take a boost, and practically sweep your team. Wild Charge is necessary on Stoutland to OHKO Gyarados which would sweep you otherwise, so keep that. CM Espeon isn't an issue with the lack of recovery and SpDef walling it sans Grass Knot @ Life orb. Why would you use Specs Alakazam when you could use Life Orb with Magic Guard and switch moves? You're crazy. Try 24 Spe EV's on Skarm to outspeed pesky fast Wobbuffet. I've always liked Impish on my SpDef Hippowdon, but whatever floats your boat.

    Good luck!
  11. Meru

    Meru

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    You're giving me calcs on a Modest Alakazam... and you fail to realize if I really want to kill Alakazam and not worry about opposing Pokemon switching in, I can just mash the Return button which OHKOs even 252 HP/252 Def Bold Alakazam.

    EDIT: It actually doesn't OHKO. Lol. This is why I can't run Jolly Stoutland you guyz
  12. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    i've played against this team more times than i'd like to remember on both po and showdown ladders, and i can confidently say that it's one of the best bw sand stall teams ever made. that said, there are just a couple weaknesses that i'd like to point out. first is the really clear dragmag weakness, as your skarmory is running lefties over shed shell (which i support, but realize it has this drawback), so mag can trap it, kill it, and then where are you? left without a physical wall and any real answer to stuff like cb outrage from a dragonite or a haxorus, and you're especially prone to mixed kyurem-b once skarm is out of the way too. i mean, the only solution here would be running shed shell, which i don't advise because then a simple voltturn core runs over you with rocks up. just something you have to deal with tbh. once you get two layers up though, it's pretty easy to clean dragmag teams with stoutland, so that's cool. another real obnoxious weakness for you is specs tornadus, which everything on your team is easily 2hko'd by (and two of your mons are ohko'd, three after rocks). your only real answer to this is switching hippowdon in and hoping your opponent both a) lacks grass knot, and b) doesn't hit two hurricanes in a row. it essentially risks the entire game on a 50/50 if they lack grass knot as i mentioned. and even once something dies, stoutland isn't a sure revenge kill, but rather another coin flip: return if you think they'll stay in, pursuit if you think they'll switch. real pain in the ass for this team and once again there's not much you can do about it, that's an accepted weakness and i get it. finally, you seem really weak to any sort of rain stall, but especially one with toxic tentacruel + perish song celebi, because you have no way to remove hazards or status on this team. skarm and whatever else doesn't have a super hard time setting up hazards, and once they do you can't remove them and it puts a ton of pressure on your team. really any team with spike stacking plus some dangerous sweepers can give you a whole ton of trouble. it seems overwhelmingly key to your team's success that you prevent lots of hazards from getting up and maintain every single one of your walls in order to stop an opposing sweep. you know about this flaw too because i've exploited it before, again just something to watch out for and an accepted trade-off in your teambuilding process.

    really great team, thanks for finally making it an rmt
  13. Frog

    Frog

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    replace scald with will-o-wisp, I agree shadow ball is a neccesity nowadays but scald is less essential. Only now heatran sucks but scald wouldn't do much anyways.

    Also I would maybe try forretress over skarmory as he has rapid spin and any sort of spikes stacking team will really wear you down, just imagine volt turn with a forretress or skarmory. Latias will get pursuited by tyranitar and with roserade not having recovery he will die too, tyranitar can pursuit or stone edge. Roserade might have a chance if spikes were gone or you could try rest over sleep powder.
  14. BKC

    BKC sorrow flew on black wings
    is a Tutoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Mentor

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    the biggest weakness this team has is entry hazards, which, assuming you don't use stoutland early-game, are easily set up on hippowdon and skarmory. you have no way to get rid of them, and that really hampers your ability to switch into threats you already are barely countering.

    if i were using this team i'd go starmie & celebi > latias & roserade; starmie spins especially well with stoutland pursuiting ghosts, while celebi is a sturdier switch to rotom-w with recover. it still counters breloom & special landorus but it's harder to pursuit with better physical bulk and u-turn.

    the tornadus weakness is probably here to stay unless you want to run spdef skarm. if you do that, impish hippo with ice fang will help out against the dragons that skarm isn't so sturdy against anymore.

    just some ideas that are more personal preference than anything else, this team's success speaks for itself. luvdisc
  15. Zephir

    Zephir

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    I guess he could use taunt on Skarmory, especially if he knows he's going to face a defensive team, and let Hippowdon on the field as little as possible until he catches up the Forre/Ferro with an HP fire for instance.
    Aside from the Tornadus weakness, I wonder if Landorus isn't troublesome for this team (then again, it's hard to be serene against it) since Latias is not hard to pursuit with Tyranitar, especially if Landorus has Uturn. Then it pretty much 2hko everybody. You can RK/weaken it with Stoutland if you predict right but that doesn't work if Landorus is at +2 speed. You prefer HP fire to Substitute on Latias and Ice fang is probably not worthy on Hippo so I don't see how to fix it.
    That said, a very good team for sure !
  16. Zugzwang

    Zugzwang

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    I wonder how you can stall decently without any spinner. I'd say Starmie deserves his stop somewhere as the only spinner fitting your team, since Forretress might prove not as useful with physical Skarmory. BKC may definitely be right with Starmie-Celebi over Latias-Roserade.
  17. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Ninety! Man, I'm glad to see this RMT. If there is a single team in my pokemon career I have consistently struggled against, it's this. I actually think the aromaticity thing is really valid--although it looks solid on paper, this team is seriously so much harder to play against than it looks. When checking to make sure my new teams can beat sand stall, this is the team I'd compare them to. Kudos for making it.

    In terms of suggestions, i think the weaknesses lavos pointed out are p accurate, I could see dragmag being tough etc. IMO though it's the lack of a spinner that's the most troubling overall--on the occasions that I did manage to beat you (not often haha), it was because I got hazards up early, and with appropriate double switching I could wear jellicent down to get a spin off. You could go with BKC's suggestions i guess--BP on celebi means nothing can pursuit-trap you, which is a nice perk over landy--you're basically exchanging tspikes for a rapid spinner. IMO that is probably worth the trade, but I can see tspikes being valuable to the team's success as well.

    Really nice team man, a take on sand stall that is both very original and extremely effective. Luvdisced!
  18. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Hi there,

    i did some similar build, and i must say that this type of team its quite underrated but it works good. Honeslty i would do some minor changes in your sets but i know that ill just make you weaker to something else, so i think its a question of preference. However i saw a pretty big weakness to one type of team, which a sun team with xatu, expecially with volcarona.

    I know in normal conditions you can play around volcarona with toxic spikes and stealth rock, but if you put a xatu in the equation you will have no way to setup your haxard. If your opponent manages to win the weather war, or just if there is sun up, volcarona can pretty much win the game alone, being able to bypass jellicent pretty easily since scald does nothing under sun and volcarona often uses giga drain. I know stoutland can revenge kill it but it cant exactly switch in on it and sand its now always up. To fix this weakness i would put a choice scarf terrakion in the place of your current stoutland. In this way you will be able to combat sun teams as well as having a revenge killer for volcarona that doesnt need sand to do its work. It functions pretty much the same way being able to clean in lategame, they also share some of their weaknesses so it doesnt change much. Just a thought in case one day a sun team will smash this team, but i understand if you dont want to take this suggestion, after all volcarona its not even that common. Gl and luvdisced :p
  19. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Hi

    So this team is one of those where making significant changes would upset the synergetic balance of the team, so props for that. There isn't really a lot you can do to make it better than it already is without opening yourself up to new threats. CB Tyranitar can be somewhat problematic, especially when paired with RP Landorus, since it can Pursuit trap Jellicent and Latias without any worries (minus the occasional Scald burn from the former). Obviously you can predict around it, but if you're not careful you could end up in a bad place, especially since Landorus cleans up this team quite nicely once both Latias and Jellicent are gone. One option here is to replace Roserade with Celebi which gives you yet another Landorus check and with Baton Pass it can avoid Pursuit. However, you'll lose Toxic Spikes and have 3 Pokémon weak to Dark/Ghost if you do this, so it's up to you really. Any other problems are just trivial and mostly due simply to team matchup; with solid playing this team can overcome pretty much anything.

    By the way, I agree with everyone about Jellicent's EV spread - I think running the extra speed on Jellicent isn't that helpful since Blastoise is completely irrelevant in high-level play. It might help sometimes on the ladder, but that's about it. I think a little extra Defense investment will help vs. Tyranitar in case you land a Burn with Scald. I personally like to run 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spd, which lets you creep the occasional 8 Spd Politoed, though if you like being faster then 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 Spd would also be acceptable because you can outspeed 20 Spd Skarmory with it and stop it from setting up Spikes on you/healing itself.

    Congratulations on the excellent team!
  20. Meru

    Meru

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    Not to bump my post but I changed a couple of the EV spreads. Max Spd Jolly Skarm has been popping up on the ladder to replace Deo-D, so I made Roserade faster than it, which is nice because it also completely shuts up Jolly Breloom, Jolly Cloyster, and Timid Politoed (lol). It still has the bulk to survive the assaults needed from Scarftar and CB Scizor. I also took the Spd suggestions for Jellicent and Skarmory into consideration and decided that outspeeding Max Spd Wobbuffet would be the best new benchmark. And finally, I found 4 SpD EVs on Stoutland from the Genesect days, so I moved those to Def to better cushion against priority.

    Thanks for the rates everybody. Nothing else to say here pretty much.
  21. TFL

    TFL

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    Hello Ninety. Your Roserade is now missing 8 EVs. You should probably toss them into SpD.

    This team is at the point where any change you make can strengthen one area, but will make you weaker in another, so I'm not going to suggest switching out any of the Pokemon.

    I've used several variations of this team and tried Taunt at first, but never seemed to use it. I switched it out for Rest and never went back. With Rest there are quite a few Pokemon Jellicent is able to wall, most notably Tentacruel in Rain. I suggest you at least try it out. 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD would be optimal if you do choose to forgo Taunt for Rest.

    This is my favorite team since BW's release and is responsible for one of the four times I hit rank 1 (thanks :). This is a very consistent ladder team that the recent bans only made stronger. Great job on this RMT, the layout is perfect.

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