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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II
- Thread starter Dogfish44
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No Guard: Perhaps the user can only hit other Pokémon using semi-invulnerable moves if the No Guard user has the same or a similar move itself? If the target is using Fly or Bounce, and the No Guard user has either Fly or Bounce, then the No Guard user can hit the target. If Dive, and also Dive (if it can be used), then No Guard will hit through Dive.
However, since the No Guard user is essentially using another move to hit, there would be an increased energy cost (which is reduced if the No Guard user is actually using the same semi-invulnerability move?). Does that all sound logical?
However, since the No Guard user is essentially using another move to hit, there would be an increased energy cost (which is reduced if the No Guard user is actually using the same semi-invulnerability move?). Does that all sound logical?
Beat Up: A cap of 6 makes perfect sense, but I see room for discussion as to whether you choose which six mons to use in large matches or if it is RNG'd.
No Guard: This gets a nay from me. Hitting through Dig, Fly, and Bounce doesn't exactly make it broken. The argument that it limits options when fighting against No Guard mons is kinda weak imo. Lots of abilities limit options for opponents, so why is this one so special?
Wide/Quick Guard: Oh my I really don't want this to be implemented without a major change to its EN cost. For just 7 EN a pop and no extra EN based on damage dealt, it's way too easy to abuse, and it's really not that hard to see why when one Pokemon with Wide Guard can nullify all spread moves for an entire round for only 33 EN in Triples, and in Brawls... dear god.
Kinda indifferent about Endeavor
No Guard: This gets a nay from me. Hitting through Dig, Fly, and Bounce doesn't exactly make it broken. The argument that it limits options when fighting against No Guard mons is kinda weak imo. Lots of abilities limit options for opponents, so why is this one so special?
Wide/Quick Guard: Oh my I really don't want this to be implemented without a major change to its EN cost. For just 7 EN a pop and no extra EN based on damage dealt, it's way too easy to abuse, and it's really not that hard to see why when one Pokemon with Wide Guard can nullify all spread moves for an entire round for only 33 EN in Triples, and in Brawls... dear god.
Kinda indifferent about Endeavor
Any objections to giving Raichu acess to Light Ball?
Lets give the poor thing a break. We all know Gamefreak hates it and it is not like this would break it. Heck, even Pichu is more popular/famous than Raichu ever was lol.
I mean, yeah, i get why it cant use that while Gorebyss/Huntail can, but would it hurt so much to make an exception for the franchise's mascot evolution?
I really doubt this will be even considered, but personally, i feel Raichu should have acess to Light Ball, although i am biased torwards underdogs (Not to mention, whats the worst that could happen? I receive a big no and then get called a dumbass? I can live with that).
Lets give the poor thing a break. We all know Gamefreak hates it and it is not like this would break it. Heck, even Pichu is more popular/famous than Raichu ever was lol.
I mean, yeah, i get why it cant use that while Gorebyss/Huntail can, but would it hurt so much to make an exception for the franchise's mascot evolution?
I really doubt this will be even considered, but personally, i feel Raichu should have acess to Light Ball, although i am biased torwards underdogs (Not to mention, whats the worst that could happen? I receive a big no and then get called a dumbass? I can live with that).
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Here is a stat comparison (with Pikachu holding a Light Ball and Raichu a Thunderstone, and a Serious nature for both):
Pikachu 90/4/2/4/2/90
Raichu 100/4/2/4/3/110
As it stands, Raichu only has 10 HP, 1 SpD, and 20 Speed over Pikachu. If Raichu had access to Light Ball, its stats would be 100/6/2/6/3/110 stats (after Light Ball), which are on par with other FEs nowadays. As such, I support giving it to Raichu.
By that logic, though, Pichu should get Light Ball, as well. That would just make it consistent and give Pichu 80/4/1/4/2/60 stats, making it pretty good for an LC (somewhat hard-hitting on both sides, but frail and slow).
Pikachu 90/4/2/4/2/90
Raichu 100/4/2/4/3/110
As it stands, Raichu only has 10 HP, 1 SpD, and 20 Speed over Pikachu. If Raichu had access to Light Ball, its stats would be 100/6/2/6/3/110 stats (after Light Ball), which are on par with other FEs nowadays. As such, I support giving it to Raichu.
By that logic, though, Pichu should get Light Ball, as well. That would just make it consistent and give Pichu 80/4/1/4/2/60 stats, making it pretty good for an LC (somewhat hard-hitting on both sides, but frail and slow).
lol this is not happening. You do not see me campaigning for Lucky Punch Blissey or Oval Stone Chansey/Blissey, & besides, it has Thunderstone anyway; A move that already improves its Attack & Sp. Attack, as well as improving Lightningrod & giving its Volt Tackle ballistic power (16 BAP).
I am not warming to this proposal & there is no need to do this. The fact that it is inherently a better item than Thunderstone is more or less a reason to not do this.
I am not warming to this proposal & there is no need to do this. The fact that it is inherently a better item than Thunderstone is more or less a reason to not do this.
Except that the Light Ball is different from the Oval Stone, Lucky Punch, etc. because it can be held by a Raichu while breeding to have an effect on the resulting Pichu, which means it should effect Raichu (by the same logic as incenses), and should effect the resulting baby as well (by the same logic as incenses), while Oval Stone, Lucky Punch, and other similar items have no such effect.
Neither does Deep Sea Tooth/Deep Sea Scale, yet we applied it to their evolutions. You are missing the point of my post. Personally, I would rather the Deep Sea boosts for Clamperl's evolutions gone, but that is another issue entirely. All these items (bar Oval Stone on Happiny, iirc) have an in-battle effect that only works on the one Pokémon (in-game), & in my humble opinion, we should leave it as such.
What makes Raichu unique enough that it "deserves more love?" Can we not also find ways to boost the usage of Seaking because it "deserves more love?" I don't really see a point to giving a signature item that GF clearly intended to be Pikachu-specific in effect to Raichu. Yes, you could argue that GF hates Raichu. Sure. They do. They also hate a lot of other mons and it is not our duty to give them more love.
Appeal to emotion based argument and buff-culture.
No.
No.
Player Handbook said:
This is definitely not well known, I believe it's a codification of an ancient rule that's been often ignored. From a quick conversation on IRC people seem to be against this? Should we be considering updating this to the more commonly used cointoss, or should we leave this in as intentional?
Personally I like the old rule as it can create some interesting choices in certain match-ups (eg. Combee vs Combee, do you use Air Cutter for more power or Gust to be more likely to hit first). It gives more incentive to use weaker moves and removes a small amount of luck away from the match...
As I recall, the reason for that "decide speed ties by EN cost" rule was because speed ties are something that come up not infrequently and, since you can't sub for them, you are left at the mercy of a coinflip. This rule would allow you to manipulate the speed tie and reduce the influence of the RNG, which from this community's attitude towards hax in the past was considered a good thing.
The question is, do we need that now?
The question is, do we need that now?
I have a shocking suggestion that no one has ever suggested and will never suggest again because it is fucking stupid:
Let's put all of the rules in one (1) thread instead of forcing people to look through the Battle Tower's first post, Prize Claim Thread's first post, ASB Handbook, Referee's Resource Thread's first post, ASB Beginner's Guide, and the Omnibus thread's first post to find the one ruling that may apply to anything?
Let's put all of the rules in one (1) thread instead of forcing people to look through the Battle Tower's first post, Prize Claim Thread's first post, ASB Handbook, Referee's Resource Thread's first post, ASB Beginner's Guide, and the Omnibus thread's first post to find the one ruling that may apply to anything?
I thought that was actually the whole point of the ASB Handbook.
Yeah I thought everything was in the handbook and if it's not in the handbook then it should be later added to it
Stated exactly that on irc
IMO we should just allow "if you lose the speed tie" as a legal substitution class and toss that pretty gosh darn obscure ruling. The current ruling is kinda inconsistent at a lot of times too. Why would cursing out a Pokemon (or whatever you picture Taunt as) take more time than literally firing a beam of ice out of your mouth or summoning a gigantic wave out of basically nowhere and riding it? You'd think a Pokemon would have a few insults handy if it had the power to do that kind of stuff.
Certainly adds a way to mitigate hax when it does happen, and winning/losing the speed tie is honestly one of those sub classes where there's no reason it SHOULDN'T be legal (and if there is, I'd love to hear it when we can sub for most everything when it comes to hax under chance substitutions).
Certainly adds a way to mitigate hax when it does happen, and winning/losing the speed tie is honestly one of those sub classes where there's no reason it SHOULDN'T be legal (and if there is, I'd love to hear it when we can sub for most everything when it comes to hax under chance substitutions).
OK, so what's up with Mega-Evolution. When you send out first, according to current rules, you cannot say:
Which doesn't make any sense - All this current ruling does is increase the odds that someone will not mega-evolve as expected for no reason other than pedantry. Allowing people to MEvolve on sendout has no negative effect on the opponent, and only a minor negative effect on the player (Potential surprise lost?). Thus, I'm proposing for the sake of sanity that the declaration of Mega Evolution on send out is the equivalent of declaring it A1 in the order set - it has exactly the same intention, so should be fair game.
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Also, current Size Classes are slightly broke - right now, thanks to the way we calculate all Pokemon Height 0.8 to 1.2m as Size 2, and all Quadrupedals 1.0 - 1.5m as Size 3, we have some pokemon like Donphan and Mightyena who are both Size Class 2 and 3, and there's no consistency between the two. Does anyone object to me moving the Quadrupedal Size Class range to 1.3-1.5m for SC 3, so that we have it more sensible? e: partially resolved for the time being.
Which doesn't make any sense - All this current ruling does is increase the odds that someone will not mega-evolve as expected for no reason other than pedantry. Allowing people to MEvolve on sendout has no negative effect on the opponent, and only a minor negative effect on the player (Potential surprise lost?). Thus, I'm proposing for the sake of sanity that the declaration of Mega Evolution on send out is the equivalent of declaring it A1 in the order set - it has exactly the same intention, so should be fair game.
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Also, current Size Classes are slightly broke - right now, thanks to the way we calculate all Pokemon Height 0.8 to 1.2m as Size 2, and all Quadrupedals 1.0 - 1.5m as Size 3, we have some pokemon like Donphan and Mightyena who are both Size Class 2 and 3, and there's no consistency between the two. Does anyone object to me moving the Quadrupedal Size Class range to 1.3-1.5m for SC 3, so that we have it more sensible? e: partially resolved for the time being.
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Because you cannot Mega Evolve on send-out ingame. Perfectly logical.
EDIT: Also what if you had to replace your fainted mon with a Pokémon, Mega Evolve on send-out, then your opponent initiates a Switch Phase? Then you counter-switch? What happens to the Mega Evolution? Does it occur or not? Probably not but to Mega Evolve only to Mega Devolve because you counter-switched is illogical.
DOUBLE EDIT: You also state that Mega Evolving on send out is of no benefit to the player other than being able to know that you are mega evolving. So tell me... If you are playing to win, then who in their right mind would even mega evolve on send-out? Is surprise not the whole point of Mega Evolution? If you are ordering first & "Mega Evolve" on send out, what happens if you have to substitute for something & do not push back? Then it gets triggered? Do you Mega Evolve or not?
The bottom line is that Mega Evolutions are tied to an action for a reason. That reason being that you can choose to Mega Evolve whenever you want within the actions you are given, & for the sake of Substitutions (Breaking news: You can substitute for a Mega Evolution/Substitute to Mega Evolve), & there are a variety of other complexities with Substitutions associated with the proposed change that I have difficulty putting into words. As an example:
In the second example, if the opponent triggers either of your Substitutions A1, then what exactly happens? Do we pretend that we Mega Evolve A1 irrespective of substitutions? Do we make the scheduled Mega Evolution (Defaulted to A1) never happen because it was overridden? Yeah I do not want to try & interpret that ever.
tl;dr, No to this proposal. The current system is much more friendly & easier to interpret. If you add Mega Evolving on send-out, then we will have extra cans of worms related to Mega Evolving on send-out only for the opponent to initiate a Switch Phase with you counter-switching, & we will have to make extra rulings dealing with Substitutions based on Mega Evolving on send-out. Mega Evolving before A1 should not be happening because it is action-based.
EDIT: Also what if you had to replace your fainted mon with a Pokémon, Mega Evolve on send-out, then your opponent initiates a Switch Phase? Then you counter-switch? What happens to the Mega Evolution? Does it occur or not? Probably not but to Mega Evolve only to Mega Devolve because you counter-switched is illogical.
DOUBLE EDIT: You also state that Mega Evolving on send out is of no benefit to the player other than being able to know that you are mega evolving. So tell me... If you are playing to win, then who in their right mind would even mega evolve on send-out? Is surprise not the whole point of Mega Evolution? If you are ordering first & "Mega Evolve" on send out, what happens if you have to substitute for something & do not push back? Then it gets triggered? Do you Mega Evolve or not?
The bottom line is that Mega Evolutions are tied to an action for a reason. That reason being that you can choose to Mega Evolve whenever you want within the actions you are given, & for the sake of Substitutions (Breaking news: You can substitute for a Mega Evolution/Substitute to Mega Evolve), & there are a variety of other complexities with Substitutions associated with the proposed change that I have difficulty putting into words. As an example:
Example 1 said:
From these two examples, you can easily tell that if the opponent triggers either of your Substitutions A1, then you do not get to mega evolve, because the scheduled Mega Evolution action is overridden. If the triggered substitution pushed back, then you can tell that the Mega Evolution is pushed back to A2.Example 2 said:
In the second example, if the opponent triggers either of your Substitutions A1, then what exactly happens? Do we pretend that we Mega Evolve A1 irrespective of substitutions? Do we make the scheduled Mega Evolution (Defaulted to A1) never happen because it was overridden? Yeah I do not want to try & interpret that ever.
tl;dr, No to this proposal. The current system is much more friendly & easier to interpret. If you add Mega Evolving on send-out, then we will have extra cans of worms related to Mega Evolving on send-out only for the opponent to initiate a Switch Phase with you counter-switching, & we will have to make extra rulings dealing with Substitutions based on Mega Evolving on send-out. Mega Evolving before A1 should not be happening because it is action-based.
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Putting in a new proposal, one that might got shot down instantly due to being a blatant example of buff culture, but might as well try.
This is the current description for Water Stone:
To counter this, I propose that Water Stone also buffs Shell Armor and Natural Cure (both abilities only one Water Stone mon has) so that Cloyster and Starmie aren't gyped with their signature item. I'm not 100% sure what the buffs would be, but I believe it certainly warrants discussion. Personally, I believe that a reasonable thing would be making Shell Armor act as a pseudo-Sturdy with Water Stone and making Natural Cure activate every round instead of every other round. I might be setting the bar too high with these suggestions, but they're mostly a starting point tbqh.
This is the current description for Water Stone:
While Poliwrath, Vaporeon, Ludi, and Simipour and their pre-evos can use the item to boost their abilities, it does absolutely NOTHING for Shellder, Cloyster, Staryu, and Starmie outside of raising their Def/SpA by one rank.
To counter this, I propose that Water Stone also buffs Shell Armor and Natural Cure (both abilities only one Water Stone mon has) so that Cloyster and Starmie aren't gyped with their signature item. I'm not 100% sure what the buffs would be, but I believe it certainly warrants discussion. Personally, I believe that a reasonable thing would be making Shell Armor act as a pseudo-Sturdy with Water Stone and making Natural Cure activate every round instead of every other round. I might be setting the bar too high with these suggestions, but they're mostly a starting point tbqh.
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