Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II

[Frosty]

The matter isn't that recoilless conkeldurr is broken or not. But that a change like that will affect only 10 or so mons (only counting the ones that are actually used) with a huge boost, while you should aim at affecting most mons with a buff good enough to make it viable, but not THAT good. If you want to boost an item itself, then make it useable just to 10 or so mons isn't what you should aim for.

In other words, that change will probably bring more harm than good (due to the "good" part being minimal, while the "bad" part is sometimes scary, albeit not necessarily broken). IMO, it doesn't make Life Orb suck less, it just takes out 10 or so mons from the pool of "mons that have better items to use then Life Orb", and I am not so sure it is what we should be aiming for.

If I go ahead and test and estabilish that LO Conk isn't broken, the issue remains, as LO will still be awful on 700 mons as opposed to 718 (those numbers aren't set on stone...just for the sake of argument). And I don't think that is what we should aim with a change like that.

Finally, Buff Culture. Of all the 20CC, I've never seen/saw little of: Assault Vest, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Choice Band, Cleanse Tag, Destiny Knot, Float Stone, Lagging Tail, Leftovers, Metronome, Safety Googles, Shed Shell, Zoom Lens (13 items). And there are also 10CC items and 6CC items. Do you really wanna go that route? Not saying you should or shouldn't, just wondering.

Also, this should get a thread. Or else it will be lost in this big one.

 

[deadfox081]

I think the discussion here kind of comes down to the fact that we are making Life Orb behave differently to how it does in game. We are pretty strict in regards to keeping in game cannon except for when we decide that doing so would definitely break out game. zarator has proposed a discussion of exactly how much changing to follow in game would effect us and I think it warrants discussion. As Frosty said, definitely in its own thread.

As far as Conkelldurr goes like zara brought up earlier those 15 BAP punches are currently 14 BAP anyway since he always carries an Expert Belt and only ever uses them when they hit super effective. If Conk is using a LO to boost neutral attacks then he's probably in a less than ideal match up to begin with.

 

[zarator]

Frosty: some of your points are legit, and as you noticed, this thing really requires to be discussed on his own, so I posted a thread about it. Please continue the discussion there.

P.S.: Allow me to notice, though, that if we reduced Life Orb to +2 BP with 1 dmg recoil it would be even worse than the current version, and totally outclassed by Expert Belt/Rare Candy/Elemental plates and similar items (depending on the Pokemon). If we really want to go down that path, +3 BP and 1 recoil is the way to go.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-xy/covet.shtml

Covet's base power has been increased to 60 in-game. This has been reflected with Thief in our NDA, but not with Covet.

 

[deadfox081]

Okay so Double Team I think has some ambiguities that should be addressed.

The user moves with incredible speed, creating several illusory clones to foil the aim of its opponents. Attacks against the user first check their accuracy as normal. If they are successful, a check is made to see if the real target was struck (100 % divided by number of targets). If the stricken target was a clone, it vanishes. If the real user is struck, all of its clones are lost. Moves make as many checks as they have targets (e.g. a move that hits all targets always strikes the real user). A Pokemon is limited to four clones at a time.

Basically the point I wish to raise is are the clones destroyed by the Pokemon's own wide ranging attacks. Obviously if I Earthquake at a Pokemon with Clones active then there is no clone check and all of them are removed but if the Pokemon with the clones uses Earthquake is it assumed that they all synchoquake or does the quake destroy the clones in the process of hitting the opponent? I have always played and ordered that friendly spread moves also destroy clones but apparently IRC conversations argue otherwise.

Given Double Team is one of if not our biggest deviation from in game mechanics it might be worth clarifying it completely. Does anyone else have any issues related to the move?

 

[Gerard]

Inb4 BAN DT!!!

Well, in my case I have always reffed it as that as well, that any attack, no matter if it comes from the pokemon, it's allies or the opponent, always destroy the clones, that's because, since they don't have any "matter" they can't really attack, so any attempt to synchronize something would thus fail, they are just illusions so if a light wind and a few bubbles can destroy them then why not an earthquake or a huge wave? This also makes the user think before using Double team as he's not gonna be able to use many spread moves so freely, which gives it a more strategic dept than just using Double Team and start spamming any move you want.

Also before someone responds that the user itself is moving though the illusions so you can attack from all of them at once since you're on all of them at once, then why can't I just remake the dissipated illusions? If I'm moving that fast then I could return to the place I was into and an afterimage of me would be created, thus a new clone would be born without me having to so anything extraordinary to do so, the clones are static once created for a reason.

 

[zarator]

I agree with Gerard on this. Aside from the obvious flavor points he raised, there are also important balance reasons for this. Double Team is currently one of the best moves available in a Pokemon's arsenal, often requiring the opponent to devote one substitution solely for it. And EVERY Pokemon in the game can learn it too (well, nearly all of them). Limiting the Double Team user's choice can't really be something bad, in my opinion, and it encourages more strategic thought.

 

[Dogfish44]

I'll agree with your own moves destroying clones when I get my way with inclement weather conditions destroying clones as well, the justification is exactly the same as that raised by Gerard - a Bubble can pop open a clone, why can't a hailstorm manage to do so. I'd also be open to considering any residual damage breaking DT as a way to balance it, the move is often incredibly overbearing and purely based on the RNG, and with this modification it's substantially easier to work around.

Yes, I have held that grudge about the current mechanics for over 3 years, why do you ask...

 

[Mulan15262]

I agree with both aspects. Moves used by any pokemon should hit clones and KO them. So should residual damage, but only when the pokemon itself is (or otherwise would be) harmed by that residual damage. You shouldn't be able to use Sandstorm to KO Double Team clones made by a Regirock, to provide an example.

 

[Objection]

So ... what exactly shouldn't automatically remove all Double Team clones?

 

[deadfox081]

Any non -- accuracy single target move will still make a clones roll

 

[Objection]

The thing is, it's not like we don't have a lot of spread moves and perfect accuracy moves that you can use versus opponents to deal some decent damage already. While the perfect accuracy ones outside of Aura Sphere may be a bit weak unless you have Technician, you have Earthquake, Rock Slide, Surf, Heat Wave and Discharge (among others) for spread moves of decent strength and the first two are especially common spread moves, though by no means ubiquitous. With that in mind, I honestly think we already have enough ways to break a Double Team that it is not currently imbalanced.

If your argument for passive damage breaking it is "a Bubble can pop open a clone, why can't a hailstorm manage to do so", then OK, you've given a flavour argument for Sandstorm and Hail damage breaking it (so long as the Pokemon actually takes damage from Sandstorm or Hail) and it gives a reason to use those moves even when they would damage you, so maybe we could allow Sandstorm and Hail to break Double Team and things would still be OK. But burn damage? Not seeing the balance argument or the flavour argument for burn damage breaking Double Team.

It honestly looks like some people are trying to nerf Double Team to the point of being completely outclassed by evasive Agility.

 

[Dogfish44]

Double Team be a complex move. Here's how I'd like a clone to be interpreted:

• A Clone has 1 HP when it is created.
• A Clone inherits all abilities and typing from it's creator.
• Those who target the creator of a clone instead target, at random, either any created clone or the creator of the clone.
• A Clone performs no action whatsoever.

I think this pretty much covers it. This means that spread moves, unless they wouldn't harm the user if used against them, destroy all the user's clones. This means that inclement weather also destroys the appropriate clones (We still need to figure out Sunny Day vs Dry Skin, since there's a flavour-related issue... do the clones melt o_O). This also means that unless the clones themselves are burnt/para'd/poisoned, that they will not be destroyed by it. I think that makes for a fairly logical set of double team clones... but I'm open to other systems.

 

[Mulan15262]

By the other types of residual damage, I meant something like "I just hit that clone with a Will-o-Wisp, so it burned up." I forgot how that clones would have already disappeared due to being hit by the residual damage-inducing move.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I think that residual damage (outside of weather) would not affect illusions because they do not have actual skin to be burned or an immune system to suffer from poison. They also presumably don't have their own attack strength, so Confusion damage or Recoil breaking them seems odd. I would be fine stopping at damaging weather breaking them.

 

[akela]

As more and more information about Generation 6 comes to light, it appears as though we need to discuss how to implement some of the changes.

It once was that only Stomp and Steamroller received double BAP against Minimized targets. But now with Generation 6, Body Slam, Phantom Force, Dragon Rush, and Flying Press also receive double BAP against Minimized targets. Normally this would not be an issue, however, the way Stomp, Steamroller, and Body Slam's BAP are calculated (by weight) differs from Dragon Rush, Flying Press, and Phantom Force's BAP calculation (a fixed BAP). We seem to have already implemented Phantom Force, but not Dragon Rush and Flying Press. Before we go any further, I feel that we need to discuss the most appropriate manner to implement the increased BAP against Minimized targets. Mainly, do we go with two (2) more BAP against Minimized targets for all 6 moves, Doubled BAP against Minimized targets for all 6 moves, or a combination of the two (+2 BAP for weight based moves and doubled BAP for non weight based moves)?

While reading through Bulbapedia's movelist, it seems as though double BAP is not the only thing changed. Those six moves, apparently, gain perfect accuracy against minimized targets. Should we implement this or not?

Smogon has little to no information (from what I've been able to locate. I am sure, though, that someone will post several threads worth of information soon in this thread and call me blind) on gen 6 move changes. Should we wait for Smogon's information or go with Bulbapedia and Veekun's information?

Support the update, send to discussion thread

Leethoof and Geodude6 I'm not outright opposed to the Moonlight thing, much leerier on Protector. All I'll say right now is be very careful with what you end up proposing (cough cough geodude). We all know what happened the last time there was a buff culture around.

I am starting to suspect we need a queue just to list suggestions with how easy things are getting skipped over.

 

[Frosty]

I am assuming "send to discussion thread" is latin for "make a discussion thread".

I have another thing I always seem to forget.

Those type-exclusive commands, like Brighten or Frost: do they take an action (like Rebound) or can they be used on sendout (like Intimidate)? I saw it being ruled like the latter (in one of the Fire Gym Matches I use that precedent) and the former (I saw subwayJ stating so while reffing a Hall, I think).

A Decision would be nice. Also, if you are to waste an action on a command that just enhances accuracy by one or doubles poison chance, you might as well explode those commands, as no one will use them ._. .

 

[Objection]

Also, if you are to waste an action on a command that just enhances accuracy by one or doubles poison chance, you might as well explode those commands, as no one will use them ._. .

I now need some cough medicine.

 

[Dogfish44]

Can we update handbook to the new Gen 6 Crit Mechanics?

Also, can we update Scope Lens to actually have some sort of effect if you don't have Super Luck ¬_¬

 

[Gerard]

^
Seconding

Also, can we update Magician? (it works for non-contact moves too)

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

If its straight mechanics updates you don't really need permission, just somebody who can do it (and has motivation). Posting the updated mechs here for public reference is an excellent idea.

 

[Frosty]

I am assuming "send to discussion thread" is latin for "make a discussion thread".

I have another thing I always seem to forget.

Those type-exclusive commands, like Brighten or Frost: do they take an action (like Rebound) or can they be used on sendout (like Intimidate)? I saw it being ruled like the latter (in one of the Fire Gym Matches I use that precedent) and the former (I saw subwayJ stating so while reffing a Hall, I think).

A Decision would be nice. Also, if you are to waste an action on a command that just enhances accuracy by one or doubles poison chance, you might as well explode those commands, as no one will use them ._. .

Let me rephrase that.

No one will use them expect on pointless substitutions or when the pokemon is idle and you don't feel like chilling.

Also, I have two other subjects I would like to see if warrant discussion.

The first one is HP. Since ASB is additive and not multiplicative, HP play a gigantic role on the power of a mon. In other words, you can't just counter a humongous HP with a mediocre Defense, like you do ingame, and expect it to even out.

To give you an example, a 130BP SE Move (High Jump Kick) on a 255/10/10 mon (Blissey), when used with STAB by an adamant 120atk mon (Blaziken), results in an easy OHKO. The same move used against an imaginary 100/100 normal mon deals at average around 85%DMG.

On ASB, Blissey would receive (13+3+7.5)*1.5=35.25hp and the imaginary mon (13+3+3)*1.5=28.5. Blissey would suffer 24% damage, while Imaginary would receive 26% damage.

So uh:
Ingame: 110% - 85%
ASB: 24% - 26%

Kinda of a problem, right?

If you think about it, several of the mons claimed to be broken are mons with good hp, like Snorlax, Pyroak, Colossoil etc.

Maybe we should consider nerfing HP a little? Like lowering the boundary when the "1 rank = 5hp" rule is applied? So instead of 100->110->120->(...) we have either 100->110->115->120, or 100->105->110->115.

That results on a 5 or 10 hp reduction on the mons with huge hp, which should be good for starters imo.

The other issue is with Weight-based moves, but for those I will be brief, since time is up:
a) Why Brave Bird/Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz is 10+Weight Class, while Double-Edge is 10+WeightClass/1.5? There is a reason why Pyroak is so powerful. 15bp Moves get really close to Cincinno level, only with good stats.
b) I feel that Weight-based moves should get a cap. I mean, firing 16BAP Double-Edges and 18BAP Giga Impacts with Snorlax is fun, but I am not sure it is the best idea. We cap stuff like Gyro Ball, and this is capped ingame, so I can't see why not.

 

[Deck Knight]

Let me rephrase that.

No one will use them expect on pointless substitutions or when the pokemon is idle and you don't feel like chilling.

Also, I have two other subjects I would like to see if warrant discussion.

The first one is HP. Since ASB is additive and not multiplicative, HP play a gigantic role on the power of a mon. In other words, you can't just counter a humongous HP with a mediocre Defense, like you do ingame, and expect it to even out.

To give you an example, a 130BP SE Move (High Jump Kick) on a 255/10/10 mon (Blissey), when used with STAB by an adamant 120atk mon (Blaziken), results in an easy OHKO. The same move used against an imaginary 100/100 normal mon deals at average around 85%DMG.

On ASB, Blissey would receive (13+3+7.5)*1.5=35.25hp and the imaginary mon (13+3+3)*1.5=28.5. Blissey would suffer 24% damage, while Imaginary would receive 26% damage.

So uh:
Ingame: 110% - 85%
ASB: 24% - 26%

Kinda of a problem, right?

If you think about it, several of the mons claimed to be broken are mons with good hp, like Snorlax, Pyroak, Colossoil etc.

Maybe we should consider nerfing HP a little? Like lowering the boundary when the "1 rank = 5hp" rule is applied? So instead of 100->110->120->(...) we have either 100->110->115->120, or 100->105->110->115.

That results on a 5 or 10 hp reduction on the mons with huge hp, which should be good for starters imo.

The other issue is with Weight-based moves, but for those I will be brief, since time is up:
a) Why Brave Bird/Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz is 10+Weight Class, while Double-Edge is 10+WeightClass/1.5? There is a reason why Pyroak is so powerful. 15bp Moves get really close to Cincinno level, only with good stats.
b) I feel that Weight-based moves should get a cap. I mean, firing 16BAP Double-Edges and 18BAP Giga Impacts with Snorlax is fun, but I am not sure it is the best idea. We cap stuff like Gyro Ball, and this is capped ingame, so I can't see why not.

Weight-Based Moves:

The discrepancy in formulas exists because of the general weight of the users of the move, where move Brave Bird/Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer users are light, but Snorlax and friends are quite heavy. It is also counterbalanced by the fact Low Kick and Grass Knot have BPs above 12, and Psychic is also does additional damage based on the opponent's WC.

Alternatively, I could up-CAP GB to 20 so that it could reach the same power levels (and similarly strengthen Electro Ball). What's the issue here per se? That the BAP is too high or that its too selectively high for the specific Pokemon best at using it?

Stats: Proposal for HP and Damage.
HP is finicky because while there are things like Snorlax and Pyroak, there are also Pokemon like Throh and Musharna whose big HP is one of the few things bringing them into relative balance.

There is one potential thing I could do. Codify Rank 0 as any value at 10 or less Base Stat in Atk/Def/SpA/SpD. This would effect Happiny/Chansey/Blissey (Atk, Def), Magikarp (Atk), Feebas (SpA), and Bonsly (SpA) so that they would only reach Rank 1 with a boosting nature, and using a negative nature would result in a further drop.

Alternatively, and this is more controversial and difficult mathematically, I could implement a bonus to a positive natures that takes, when the difference is positive, the Base Rank difference/10 [before W/R], so that for example a +Atk Blaziken HJK against Blissey would have its ordinary formula + (120-10)/10 = +11 (16.5 accouning for W/R) DMG. The same would be applied in reverse against an opponent's weaker Base Atk, so a +Def mon with high Def Ranks (say Steelix) would take (200-120)/10= -8 DMG from HJK.

This would basically mean any +Atk Pokemon is smashing Blissey's face in, while less extreme Pokemon aren't as effected. It is an open question whether this makes Speed boosts too weak by comparison, but Speed boosts Accuracy of all attacks and attacking order, not damage output on one specific type. This is also a huge boon to defense boosts, since defensive base stats are much higher generally than offenses.

Any method of simplifying such a formula would be appreciated, but it would make natures even more important and even more consequential for "extreme" Pokemon like Rampardos.

 

[Frosty]

Being blunt, the issue with Weight-Based moves is Pyroak and Snorlax. Pyroak because 15BAP moves with no recoil is silly and Snorlax because 18BAP moves is silly. Bronzong to a lesser extent too.

Sure the average mon will get 12-14 BAP which is good, but not "silly". But the mons that you see using said moves are the ones with big weight (and STAB), aka Pyroak and Snorlax mostly. And those mons have the advantage of being in the far end of the weight scale (Pyroak for Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz users) AND having other factor that tip the balance even further (HP and Rock Head for Pyroak and HP and huge movepool for Snorlax).

That post was more a "we need to do something about Pyroak and Snorlax", than a "Weight is bad" post. I just didn't state that because we don't usually do changes or nerfs to specific mons. But that was the reason behind it yeah.

Still, I am not sure if Low Kick and co counters Weight moves. One because against Pyroak it isn't that effective and two because you will be stuck on a "crush or be crushed" situation, which doesn't constitute a stable balance IMO. But I may be wrong in that regard.

As for HP, I feel that statistically it is still an advantage. Blissey was just an example really. What I was trying to say was: Gamefreak balanced High HP with other stuff going by the premisse of Multiplicative Damage. If we Import those stats as is to ASB, which has Additive Damage, the end result will be (and is) not balanced overall. I mean, Throh and Musharna went from "NU" to "good" (which isn't bad for the metagame) and Snorlax, Pyroak, Krillowatt and Colossoil went from "good" to "Borderline broken" (which may be harmful for the metagame....or not). Not only due to HP yeah, but mostly due to it.

I am aware that ASB is different from ingame. I am just wondering if it is worth it to tweak HP considering how it buffed mons that didn't really need buffs. In other words, I am not saying that ASB shouldn't represent a change from ingame, I am saying that that specific change regarding HP produced a not-so-pleasant result.

Regarding Formulae...I am not in a "number crunching" mood as is, so maybe later.

 

[Geodude6]

HP:
Note that under this proposal Snorlax would have 125 HP, which is what it had before the rank shifts in the transition to Gen VI. But this will still help in nerfing Pyroak and Colossoil. Can't really tell how the viability of Musharna and co. will be affected.

Weight-Based moves:
Perhaps we can nerf Brave Bird/Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz to 10+Weight Class/1.5, and for all weight-based moves make the BAP round normally; as well as make WC 9 start at 461 kg, just a bit heavier than the 460 kg Snorlax (which is the only Pokémon affected by this). Pyroak's Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz would have 10+(5/1.5) = 13.333... ~ 13 BAP, which is still powerful but a bit more manageable. With both of these nerfs, Snorlax (now with a WC of 8) has a Double Edge with a BAP of 15, and its Giga Impact would have a BAP of 17 (which admittedly isn't much of a nerf, but Snorlax IS a fatass).