Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[ZhengTann]

Regarding LC handicaps: I am actually taken to the motive behind Deck's idea (which, if I got it right, is to give players a less uneven ground should they choose not to evolve certain Pokemons). But I have to agree with Texas, that the proposed changes may not achieve the set goals. Caterpie with natural R3 SpA / SpDef holding Eviolite will still probably not cut it against, say, Rare Candy Stratagem. True, this means that LCs will often be perceived as nothing but counter-sinks or,

... I couldn't've participated in this higher level sort of ASB play without ridiculous farming...

And what-have-you... So yeah, count on me to support discussing this to see if, heavens forbid, radical changes need to be implemented. In the end, maybe we'll just make some sort of a Reverse BRT Arena or something.

 

[Gemini Taurus]

Concerning Ice STAB:

I think Gerard was on to something when he suggested that Ice Type STAB is very underwhelming. The current Frost command would only see use by facility mons or TLR mons, the latter of which some people seem to have problems with already. I wouldn't be opposed with changing the access to a Frost command, to something like Gerard's suggestion with a Defense boost in hail, similar to rock-type's Special Defense boost in sandstorm. Alternatively, I'd suggest an effect that is almost a combination of rock and dragon STABs, with the BAP of SE moves against the ice type being reduced by 1 BAP in a hailstorm.

Honestly I'd probably support anything that changes the current frost, who's only real use is to screw over the challenger in roleplays (especially TLR -_-)

 

[Deck Knight]

RE: Gen VI Rock and Ice STABS:

When I initially went through the idea of balancing STABs, there was a lot of back and forth, and the general consensus was that BAP ind of boosts / reductions should generally be frowned upon. What I tried to do instead is look at the type as a whole and identify trends within its Pokemon to identify an appropriate boost. That is why Dragon's defensive boost is so limited, since I noticed Dragon tends to be paired with a lot of types that negate Dragon's defensive benefits.

If priority passed protect is really a problem, it's easy enough to remove it from the description without changing anything else. What I noticed about Rock types is that they all have these great defensive boosting moves, and many even have a recoil-inducing effect in ASB. Problem is, most Rock-type Pokemon are about as fast as... rocks (The only common FE Rock mons with more than 71 Speed are Kabutops, Archeops, and Aerodactyl). And even with Rock Polish, they don't get that stellar a benefit, since anything under Rock Polish would rather Rock Slide for a flinch rather than Iron Defense to cause opponent recoil.

Ice types are also generally slow, but Ice is a much better offensive type than Rock. Rock's power moves are inaccurate, recoil-inducing Head Smash (fixed by Rock Head), Inaccurate Stone Edge, and a Power Gem that most Rock Pokemon don't even *get,* including special attacking Rock types [which are usually stuck with Ancientpower]. And then Rhyperior and Crustle get Rock Wrecker, which induces Sluggish afterward.

Ice by contrast has Blizzard (which everything gets and has no miss acc in Hail, the harbinger of the Blizzard + Sheer Cold party wiping combo), Ice Beam, Icicle Crash, Ice Punch, and Avalanche, as well as Freeze-Dry which helps several get around problems with Water types and Ice Shard for priority. Most of these also have a 10% freeze effect that prevents an opponent's action. In other words, Ice types don't usually have a problem successfully waging a damage war.

Most Ice types also have a dual STAB to work off that reduces their weaknesses defensively or threatens these weaknesses offensively (sometimes both, like Ice/Water or Ice/Ground vs. Rock, Fire, and Steel types). Rock types by contrast tended to have types that compounded their weaknesses and / or resistances (Rock/Ground, Rock/Steel, Rock/Water).

And that's why balancing is a problem beyond things like STAB Commands. Rock and Ice are objectively questionable types [mostly defensively] in a vacuum. The Pokemon that have them, however, are generally pretty solid.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I am probably going to cop a lot of shit from this and I think I might be the only one here but I feel like something needs to be done.

Double Team as it stands is uncompetitive and needs a complete overhaul

How is it uncompetitive you ask? Simple. There are many chance based flails to evade something in the game. You have Dodge, the Evasive moves, Sand Veil, Minimise and other things. While most of these are either passive or only take up an action, Double Team is different. At its full use (Four Clones), it has a 60% chance of giving the user at least one "free" action and up to even three free actions if the opponent is ridiculously. Sure there are over 9000 countermeasures from weather to spread moves to never-miss moves to substitutions but to me, these countermeasures mean jack shit. I do not care if I can just "IF Double Team Clones THEN Earthquake." I do not care if you can sub around it because any move can be dealt with by subbing around it, especially when there are better things to sub for nine times out of ten. I do not care if I can just use spread moves in my action-set to deal with it (especially given it may prevent you from dealing the most damage). I do not care if any competent player should be able to deal with Double Team. I do not care if it can backfire in one action because the opponent was ridiculously lucky. I do not care how easily you can deal with Double Team. Not one bit. Why? Because no amount of countermeasures to deal with such a shit-box of a move can stop it from being uncompetitive. Dodge for example is fine because you cannot buy any actions from using it. Double Team however can semi-reliably buy you at least one free action. It can single-handedly turn the tide of the game into one to four consecutive coin-flips that are biased against the user of Double Team and to me, that is uncompetitive to the core. Not to mention, almost every Pokémon in the game can learn Double Team. I feel like Double Team in ASB is as bad, if not, worse than what Swagger was in OU and it is consistent enough in terms of buying free actions to worry about it. I neutered the effects of Double Team from my Gym for a reason.

Of course through all the complaining I must provide a possible solution to Double Team. I personally feel like a simple +1 evasion booster that decays is enough in this regard. It is not very consistent, it is not as uncompetitive and I feel like it is a good improvement from before. I guess there are some concerns with Simple users and Macho Brace users but it is better than the current version of Double Team.

Of course I might just be butt-hurt but I feel like Double Team in its current state is uncompetitive and I want to do something about it. I do not care if we did something on it a month or two ago but the current effect I feel has no place in ASB, especially at a serious level.

Thank you for reading.

 

[zarator]

I fully agree with Its A Random. Or well, I would not agree if Double Team were as "widespread" as, say, Minimize. But the fact that every Pokemon gets it makes it really over-the-top. Even if as IAR said it is rather easily counterable, it is so powerful if you don't that it basically forces you to one of:

1) Spend one substitution solely for Double Team. Basically, it means playing with just one sub against nearly every fully evolved Pokemon, and this in itself is nearly ridiculous
2) Fit in wide-spread or never-miss attacks in your main orders to discourage Double Team. This is, IMO, the best solution in most cases. However, it is hardly from feasible in general. Unless you're lucky enough to have a widespread, strong move that the opponent is weak against (Earthquake, Surf, Dazzling Gleam etc), you're basically limiting your damage output solely to ward off Double Team.
3) "Dry" taunting (I mean, Taunt in your main orders as opposed to your subs). This is a really dangerous move because it gives your opponent a free action to attack you with whatever move he wants, but sometimes it's the only way out of some ridiculous 100+ moves Pokemon.

In both cases, your options are severely restricted JUST because the opponent can Double Team. Again, if only a few Pokemon could use it, it could be somehow manageable (maybe), but as it stands it's just excessive. In my opinion, the best thing we can do is turn Double Team back to what it was supposed to be in-game: A move that raises your evasion stage by 1. This still makes it very powerful (ex: if the opponent attempts to use Hypnosis or WoW, you can DT once or twice and nearly ensure a miss), but it would also make it a lot more manageable.

Other ideas/input are still welcome.

 

[Redew]

Hi there.

While thinking of possible team mates, I thought about the possibility of a species clause. I was told that there was none, and, while not a terrible thing it is to not have it, I think it would be a good idea to give players the option to toggle it on or off.

 

[Arcanite]

With regards to double team, maybe make the cap on clones lower? Say Maximum two clones? I fear that this may not have any effect, but it decreases the chance of you wasting an action much lower.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

Speaking of Double Team, the NDA description of Keen Eye is not terribly clear that it completely bypasses Double Team. I know that it says that it sees through all attempt to evoke more evasive, but Double Team does not raise Evasiveness, which could lead to some confusion.

 

[starwarsfan]

Hi there.

While thinking of possible team mates, I thought about the possibility of a species clause. I was told that there was none, and, while not a terrible thing it is to not have it, I think it would be a good idea to give players the option to toggle it on or off.

I do believe that there is always a species clause in Gyms, TLR, Raids, Tourneys, most facilities, etc, and that players can choose to have one in other battles.

If I'm wrong then I agree that one - or the option of one - should exist.

 

[Frosty]

There isnt a written species clause rule for gyms. There is for some rps though. I guess you can say it is an unwritten rule but really: the reason no one bothered to create one is because aside from leethoof, i dont think any other player has two of the same FE mon trained.

But yeah making it formal for gyms would be lovely. For normal battles you can already state that so there isnt a need to make such rule "official" in that case.

Long story short: bug tex|pwne|mk to write it on the gym op and problem solved

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'd rather it not be a particular clause since that's just a pain in the ass for something so rare

NEW RULE: NO MULTIPLE MONS OF THE SAME MON IN SERIOUS MATCHAS

 

[ZhengTann]

Just here to say that under the silence of IAR and Dogfish, I have covertly grabbed the autonomous power and implemented the updated ASB Constitution, to be found here. Main changes include:

• Deck Knight's withdrawal from the hierarchy of power.
• 3-month Council term.
  
• Using quote tags and "likes" to get a proposed issue into a Discussion thread.

If anyone still wish to claim that it needs an update, please post a handwritten copy of any proposed amendments to Deck Knight's home address IRL on this thread along with any such claims.

Will track updates on these proposals soonish:

• LC/NFE debuffs (4 more responses needed, or could just scrap it?)
• STAB reviews (0 more responses needed, but could just scrap?)
• Phazing moves versus Protective moves (4 more responses needed)
• Double Team (yeah, let's just pop this one up)

 

[Psyco_Josho]

Not too big of a deal right now, but Volkraken has Pressure as its Hidden Ability: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...or-ability-poll-2.3508059/page-4#post-5489639

We can update the NDA about this any time.

 

[Dogfish44]

Updated Volkraken. Still can't purchase them.

 

[Birkal]

Since we're in a bit of a lull, I'd like to bring up Rotom for discussion. The concept of switching between formes is vague, with the Handbook being not entirely clear on when Rotom can switch formes. Quoting the Handbook, "Alternatively, the player may purchase an appliance and bring it to the battle with them. In this case, Rotom may possess the purchased appliance immediately when it is sent out or possess it at some other point during the battle on command." While this is sensible, where does it leave other appliances?

I've seen the entire gambit here, from players being required to choose Rotom's forme before a battle (me in BoB Tournament) to players not only choosing Rotom's forme on send-out, but changing formes midbattle (AOPSUser has done this). While I am biased, I am much more in favor of allowing something closer to the latter. Rotom is not a phenomenal Pokemon to begin with, and if you've spent 42 CC to buy all of the appliances and Rotom itself, you might as well be able to get some bang out of your buck. Besides, spending two actions and 16 energy of not attacking to change formes is hardly overpowered. Is it different from other items? In my opinion, it shouldn't be. Items have now gotten to the point where they can have massive battle consequences (changing formes, increasing priorities, doubling stats).

It'd be nice to get a verdict on this by the council. Shouldn't be overly complicated!

 

[ZhengTann]

Concerning Roar/Whirlwind bypassing Protective moves:

<Zt> Also, since nobody bothered, I'll ask here.
<Zt> Who here is okay with Roar/Whirlwind bypassing Protective/Evasive moves?
<Avnomke> I thought it did?
<Alakazam> It does in-game
<Alakazam> i I thought
<Zt> Alakazam - not yet implemented in ASB.
......

<Zt> Okay back to the question.
-->| Its_A_Random (uses@Honedge.to.slap) has joined #capasb
=-= Mode #capasb +ao Its_A_Random Its_A_Random by ChanServ
<Zt> Zt Who here is okay with Roar/Whirlwind bypassing Protective/Evasive moves?
<Avnomke> It does in-game
<Avnomke> so wynaut
<Frosty> we kinda have a In-Game>NDA Policy
<Frosty> (when due it the latter being outdated)
<Zt> Or rather, just Protective moves, given Roar/Whirlwind are single target moves.
<Frosty> *to the
<Zt> Frosty - there's the Defog shenanigan.
<Its_A_Random> of course, every rule has exceptions (e.g. Double Team)
<Tortferngatr> does this mean that Exploud's Boomburst+Roar bypasses Protect?
<Frosty> hence the "(when due to the latter being outdated)"
<Zt> Tort - I'd say yeah.
<Frosty> yeah
<Its_A_Random> it would hahaha
<Zt> Alright, if nobody has an issue with it, would the NDA auditors please put them in.
<Tortferngatr> note to self: your plan to get an Exploud and abuse awesome Scrappy Boomburst is solid
<Avnomke> Zt Roar/Whirlwind would hit through evasive moves because they have -- accuracy
<Zt> Okay, my bad on that Avnomke.

 

[Dogfish44]

Echoing Birkal's concern about Rotom - it's been brought up before but there's so many conflicting opinions on it.

• Should all Rotom have standard and appliance data within them?
• How many appliances can we bring to 1 battle?
• Should you only be able to bring standard Rotom to a battle?
• How does Rotom interact with arenas?
• How can you change forme outside of battle? Can you?

 

[smashlloyd20]

Here is a sentence from the description of Illusion:
"You must use that [the Illusioned 'mon] later in the battle though."

So what happens if Aurumoth is a last Pokemon? Does Illusion work or no?

 

[Geodude6]

Here is a sentence from the description of Illusion:
"You must use that [the Illusioned 'mon] later in the battle though."

So what happens if Aurumoth is a last Pokemon? Does Illusion work or no?

I'd be inclined to say no.

Echoing Birkal's concern about Rotom - it's been brought up before but there's so many conflicting opinions on it.

• Should all Rotom have standard and appliance data within them?
• How many appliances can we bring to 1 battle?
• Should you only be able to bring standard Rotom to a battle?
• How does Rotom interact with arenas?
• How can you change forme outside of battle? Can you?

I would say that Rotom should have data for its standard forme and appliances in the Pokemon's profile; if a certain appliance's data is not in the profile then that appliance shouldn't be able to be used in that battle, and Rotom should be brought in the forme that you intend to use it. Arenas I wouldn't think would be a bigger deal than anything else in ASB; normal rules unless the arena specifies otherwise. Changing forme outside of battle, at least in the case of Rotom, I see as something akin to nickname changes or reformatting; that is, you should be able to do it without making a prize claim.

 

[ZhengTann]

Regarding Rotom: Seems like this could be worth a discussion, given that a more engaged non-battle roleplay could be real in the future. Dogfish's list serves as a good start, so I'll put up a Discussion thread as soon as possible.

Regarding Illusion: I think, smashlloyd, that if you've KO'ed all but your opponent's Illusion mon (be it Aurumoth or Zoroark), then I think you would know what that the last mon is. But if it's a Switch=KO, and some mons are still alive... Well, I think that's a yes. The funny thing is, nobody else still would suspect it until its too late. But if this requires discussion, then we'll see if there's more people wanting to chime in.

* * * * * * *​

And I'm here to present another conundrum:

The Pokemon has intimate knowledge of the opponent's held item and ignores any item-based increases in damage or status. The Pokemon will not be affected by Fling or Natural Gift.

"... any item-based increases in damage or status" is a vague explanation for how Frisk works. We know that Sentret will not be taking 22++ damage from Dragon Fang Haxorus, but what if that same Sentret uses Knock Off on Rare Candy Meganium? I think it would be clearer if we made Frisk to ignore all items held by an opponent when it comes to all forms of direct damage calculations, and only those. The proposed clarifications would look like this:

The Pokemon has intimate knowledge of the opponent's held item and ignores the opponent's held item when calculating damage from direct attacks, whether from the Pokemon or the opponent. The Pokemon will not be affected by Fling or Natural Gift.

Thoughts?

 

[Mulan15262]

Rotom: I think that Rotom should be sent out, either as normal forme or with an appliance of the user's choosing, the appliance could be picked from the arena, the trainer's inventory, or other possible effects (i.e. the SICK tournament), and the Rotom would take the forme of the appliance. If, later on in the battle, the trainer wants to use another Rotom forme, the trainer should have to initiate a switch phaze to change the appliance.

Illusion: I don't see anything wrong with using Illusion on your last pokemon. You probably won't fool anyone, but you could do it.

Frisk: I agree with the new description proposal, it seems much more clear.

 

[Birkal]

What's up with self reffing? The proposal was voted for... let's get moving on this, please. If you need grunt work to be done, I'd be more than willing to help. This doesn't need to be a month long transition, no reason for a delay!

 

[Elevator Music]

kinda lazy proposal here: make quick guard and wide guard act like they do ingame (in terms of stuff like blocking gale wings/etc, being able to be used consecutively in some cases or w/e)

 

[Dogfish44]

What's up with self reffing? The proposal was voted for... let's get moving on this, please. If you need grunt work to be done, I'd be more than willing to help. This doesn't need to be a month long transition, no reason for a delay!

We're holding out on referee training going up - which has been delayed. Delays for this were expected, we'll get it up as soon as the training program is ready. Last I checked akela was in control of that, if he could reply with a status update that would be useful (I'd also like to know the status of ref training as the mod in charge of refs ¬¬)

 

[akela]

I have the notes for dos and don'ts of the reffing program. But I have been a bit swamped with personal matters, reffing, the hidden temple run, qualifiers, and tournaments.

Currently have 38 files/drafts of the reffing program. Each one less extreme than the previous.