Atheist/Christian buses

Status
Not open for further replies.

monkfish

what are birds? we just don't know.
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Monkfish- Sweet, I was just beating you to the punch incase you were some bible crazed godhound. I didn't mean for it to sound as bad as it came out, I hope I didn't piss you off too badly. I suspected you to be smarter than that, but I like to undercut people (especially religious folk) before their arguement even gets off the ground because they are so frustrating to me on the internet sometimes.
no problem same here

Faith is something that people are hardwired for, that's an easy explaination right there. We are biologically hardwired to find explainations for things, even when the explaination is beyond us. So, how do you explain things like the sun when you haven't got a telescope? How do you explain death when it scares the shit out of you? Easy, you make a god.
agree. perhaps "scientifically simple" would be a more appropriate qualifier to the razor.

I would argue that the middleman would be the same, but then I am asserting that if there is a god he would have made the galaxy, set the rules in motion and left it to its own devices, what with the whole freewill thing and all. Ergo, you have life starting the same, moving along by the same rules and ending the same way. Evolution, cellular respiration and all that jazz is what I was thinking would be the method here. Perhaps I'm so far from believing in any kind of god that it makes it a bit difficult for me to see your point of view.
with regards to nature i think sir david attenborough has it bang on: "as far as I'm concerned, if there is a supreme being then he chose organic evolution as a way of bringing into existence the natural world.";
"My view is: I don't know one way or the other but I don't think that evolution is against a belief in God."


perhaps i misinterpreted what you mean by the "method", but there is one sticking point that always gets me:
"...set the rules in motion and left it to its own devices, what with the whole freewill thing and all. Ergo, you have life starting the same..."
to me, the simple explanation for the existence of life is that life has always existed. i also believe in the big bang theory so much as the history of the universe is concerned. i believe that we evolved from single-cellular organisms. but i do not rule out the possibility that such organisms were created by a conscience of some sort - so i suppose my definition of a god is (tongue-in-cheek) the "possible creator of life on earth".

so back round to the original point: i don't see any way in which we can quantify the probabilities of this happening. it is simply beyond the capability of the current state of our minds and our technology to discern such a thing.

Um. To everyone who's bitched about the 'probably no God' thing - they had to phrase it like that, it was a legal requirement.
lol no they didn't. nobody marched into Big Chief Athiest's office and slapped down a legal notice requiring this advertisement to be placed. they could have worded it "there may be no god" and that would have been perfectly legal.

son of disaster:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
 
Akuchi, you'll be pleased to know the atheist variants were banned in Atlantic Canada, but not the christian ones. Gotta love that, eh?

SoD- No. The human mind is hardwired to solve puzzles, that is a fact. Another fact is that when the human mind is given a problem it cannot solve, it creates a solution for it in order to make a working model, even if it is based on something false. Hence, the basic building blocks for faith and for technology right there.

But for the middleman thing here's the difference. God means we live in a mortal existence. Evolution means we die and that's it. It gives a way to explain the start of existence whereas evolution gives you nothing. If we begin and end so there had to be a beginning to this universe. Where does it all start from? How could something get there? That's the difference. I'm not saying evolution doesn't exist btw.
Chemical evolution is just as legitimate as biological evolution and I don't see how your arguement holds up to that at all...

As for hitler he also commited genocide on millions of Jews. I think that would detract from any of his ideas as most would see him as a mad man.
He would be hailed as a hero if his bigotry and ambition didn't get out of hand. Hmmm...sounds kinda like the church, strangely enough.

edit: god damn it posts are flying onto this discussion!

Monk: I think we have reached a point of concurrence, except that I would maintain that life has the very real potential to 'spring up from nothing'; anything is possible, given enough trials (and we're talking on the order of billions per second in some instances). Arsenic fixing bacteria anyone? It's also entirely probably that life is being seeded all over the galaxy from other sources, but then that still allows for my original assumption that life can 'spring up from nothing'. You strike me as an agnostic; how much have you actually looked into things? I'm sure I don't need to tell you that it's a complete copout to say "Well God did it lol", so how would you justify your agnostic nature beyond the notion that it's possible?

agree. perhaps "scientifically simple" would be a more appropriate qualifier to the razor.
Doesn't that basically mean the same thing though? Simple within the sciences really is based on the razor anyways, so it's kind of a reacharound in that reguard.
 

monkfish

what are birds? we just don't know.
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
occam's razor may apply to both science and philosophy. i would qualify a deity as a philosophically simple concept

will reply more when off phone
 
SoD- No. The human mind is hardwired to solve puzzles, that is a fact. Another fact is that when the human mind is given a problem it cannot solve, it creates a solution for it in order to make a working model, even if it is based on something false. Hence, the basic building blocks for faith and for technology right there.



Chemical evolution is just as legitimate as biological evolution and I don't see how your arguement holds up to that at all...



He would be hailed as a hero if his bigotry and ambition didn't get out of hand. Hmmm...sounds kinda like the church, strangely enough.

.
yes the human brain is hardwired to solve puzzles but you were claiming it's hardwired to create gods. Certainly gods could be explanations but i think it is more nurture than genes or hardwiring of the brain.

I never had an argument. I was just explaining the differences between a god inspired belief in existence as opposed to an evolutionary one or a god using evolution for that matter...
 
Monk, I look forward to it. I actually have a brother with a masters in philosophy, so he may be a good resource for me on this debate.

SoD- so you agree that humans are hardwired to solve puzzles but don't extend that to them creating a fictitious solution so they can go on with their day? I presented you with an elegant and simply idea and you have failed to explain your point about the nurture. Extrapolate on this idea so I don't pretend like you never said it and move on.
 
Moomorpid: it mildly depresses me, but doesn't really surprise me. Christianity has been oppressing people for millenia, why the hell would it stop now?
 
...HAVE YOU EVER STOLEN?
LIED?
BLAH BLAH MORE CHRISTIAN MORALS
ARE YOU GOING
TO HEAVEN OR HELL

Honestly, every time I see this shit, I want to punch someone in the face....
Well, why are such strong emotions stirred up at just a mention if it's not true anyways?

If someone says to me, "The sky is red, and clouds are purple," I'm not going to assault them. It's much easier to dismiss them as a complete moron and ignore that they even spoke.
 
Fatality: fair point. But if you're being told THE SKY IS RED AND THE CLOUDS ARE PURPLE AND YOU WILL BURN IN A PIT OF ETERNAL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME since you're young enough to process information, you'd be forgiven for one day turning around and smacking said person in the face. God knows I want to.

Oh, and monkfish - yes, that is actually what I meant. The atheists weren't allowed to state "There is no God", hence the need for the qualifying addition. The Christians are also not allowed to say "There is a God", but they do, because they are twats.
 
lol

Monk, I look forward to it. I actually have a brother with a masters in philosophy, so he may be a good resource for me on this debate.

SoD- so you agree that humans are hardwired to solve puzzles but don't extend that to them creating a fictitious solution so they can go on with their day? I presented you with an elegant and simply idea and you have failed to explain your point about the nurture. Extrapolate on this idea so I don't pretend like you never said it and move on.
I'm saying gods aren't simply created for explanations. You don't think there's the possibility that parents raised their children with belief in gods? That's nurture. That the parents came to the conclusion that their must be gods not based on explanation of things that can't be explained right now but by abstract thought? Not just hardwiring making them think so? But like i said it's nature v nurture. It's practically the biggest question of common pschology. How much of human nature is hardwired and how much is gained through experience...
 
It infuriates me because it makes quite flimsy assumptions and then uses them to make people think they are bad people and/or guilt them into joining them in their quest for something to relieve them of how bad they are? I am not going to go into it in depth here regarding lying, since I already have in my blog, but I do not lie, yet fully support intelligent lying. I do not steal, but I certainly do realize that there are those who must. I do not believe in heaven or hell, but people who assert that it is real use it to create vast injustice, take lots of funds (sometimes used fairly well, sometimes swindled), and really, telling people they are bad and getting them to believe it is a terrible thing. Most people cannot create a well-crafted ideology and will believe what they hear from enough people...
 
"Because if I don't have the threat of burning and being tortured for eternity I'm going to rape, murder and urinate on children" - Christianity, making sense since 1 A.D

Best shirt ever or best shirt ever?

Also what's all this parents crap? Some really general arguments are being made by SoD right about now.

I'm saying gods aren't simply created for explanations. You don't think there's the possibility that parents raised their children with belief in gods? That's nurture. That the parents came to the conclusion that their must be gods not based on explanation of things that can't be explained right now but by abstract thought?
Parent: Gee, my father told me that god exists and all the christian propaganda that I see on the streets say Jesus Saves. I considered that maybe my beliefs are wrong but luckily I have proof from the bible that is the word of god because it says so in the bible.

Based on all proof and evidence I have come to the conclusion using abstract thought that god exists.

I'm going to tell me kids that god exists.
 
Ck I agree, again.

I'm saying gods aren't simply created for explanations. You don't think there's the possibility that parents raised their children with belief in gods? That's nurture. That the parents came to the conclusion that their must be gods not based on explanation of things that can't be explained right now but by abstract thought? Not just hardwiring making them think so? But like i said it's nature v nurture. It's practically the biggest question of common pschology. How much of human nature is hardwired and how much is gained through experience...
I'm talking about the origin of gods or god concepts, you're talking about the propegation. I'm glad I asked you to expand on that thought so I could clear that up, we were talking apples and oranges- still fruit but totally different fruits.
 
I have to agree with everyone who says that both sides are stupid. Frankly, I think people should believe what they want to believe, but they should do so privately. Shoving your religion, or lack of religion, down the throats of everyone you meet is not going to "save" or "liberate" anyone, only get them pissed off. Excercise your beliefs in your own homes and churches, live the way you feel you should, but don't throw your Bible/Qur'an/Darwin/whatever ay the heads of everyone who thinks differently than you. Some people seem to get so caught up in senseless zealotry that they don't stop to think that maybe some people are already happy with the beliefs they're living.

...I guess that kind of went off track from the whole bus thing, but those are my feelings on the matter. :/

Oh, and SoD, might I suggest opening your mind just a tad more? You don't have to denounce God or burn your bible, just listen to what other people say with an attitude of "Maybe there's something worth thinking about here" instead of putting up an iron defense (or acid armor if you prefer :P) around your mind before you start reading. (And I'm sure there are a few other people out there who could stand to do the same.)
 
Haven't studies shown that believing in any religion increases your life expectancy? A wee bit of irony, but whatever.

To each of his own, however. Atheists see this as perfect pay back and much justified while Christians view this as an attack. I'd say that probably 75% of the population doesn't even give a damn one way or the other about these signs; I mean really, who are Christians trying to convert in 1st World nations anyway?

Besides the fact that this can all be perceived as an attack on Islam and Judaism, which share the same god. Hell, any religion that has gods can consider this an attack. But Atheists have all the right to make this "advertisements", if you could call them that.
 
In the scientific method, Occam's razor, or parsimony, is an epistemological, metaphysical, or heuristic preference, not an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.[15][16][17][18] As a logical principle, Occam's razor would demand that scientists accept the simplest possible theoretical explanation for existing data. However, science has shown repeatedly that future data often supports more complex theories than existing data.
That's a rather disappointing Wikipedia entry since it misses the point spectacularly. The point is that there are many, many, many more complex theories than simple ones - exponentially more than there are added degrees of freedom. I am simplifying a lot, but suppose that the odds that the right theory is complex are 80%. What will usually happen here is that there will be one simple theory, accounting for a 20% probability mass and, say, eight complex theories, accounting for 80% in total but 10% each. If you have a small amount of data, you cannot tell any of these nine theories apart. They all explain the current data fine. Now, if you keep experimenting, you will get new data and that new data will allow you to filter the candidates. You will probably have to reject the simpler theory as well as the great majority of complex theories. Sure, the theory you end up with will probably be complex. But the fact remains that before seeing that new data you will have to go with the simplest theory because for any set of particular theories it is the simplest that is the most probable. You can't tell in advance how complex a theory will be and you know that any particular simple theory is more probable a priori than any particular complex theory (because for every simple theory, similar complex theories are dime a dozen). That is why picking anything else than the simplest (working) theory at any given time is lunacy. Picking a theory doesn't mean you are absolutely certain it is the right one. You can always revise it later under the light of shiny new data - when data allows us to discriminate between two similar theories, Occam's razor doesn't even apply anymore!

Occam's razor doesn't say that the correct explanation for a phenomenon is more likely to be simple than complex. It says that if two particular hypotheses X and Y explain a phenomenon equally well, the simplest of the two is inherently more probable. A certain balance in probability is achieved with the very simple fact that complex hypotheses are many more than simple ones, but that's frankly irrelevant.

"Outlandish supernatural claims"? Sorry but I don't care for such flagrant bias in serious discussion. This is not a debate about vampires and werewolves. There is a massive lack of appropriate technology for discerning any kind of higher being in our universe; we know nothing about our own existence because we simply are not that advanced a race. You cannot use Occam's Razor for the existence of life or the universe because there is no 'simple explanation'. "It just happened" is as complex a theory as that of an omnipotent deity.
Of course there could be a simple explanation. Perhaps a certain kind of cellular automaton initialized on a large matrix of active cells produces something that works exactly like our universe. In any case, the problem is that there are trillions of theories which explain the universe just as well as an omnipotent deity (that is, not at all). I could make one up on the spot. Or two. When you have trillions of candidates to "explain" something, you sure as fuck should pick the simplest one for reasons I explained above. And since God doesn't explain jack shit about anything in the first place (hint: you can't explain anything without being falsifiable - no wonder why it's part of the definition of a scientific theory), you're better off with a lack of theory.

PS: what does "it just happened" even mean? I'm puzzled.
 
Haven't studies shown that believing in any religion increases your life expectancy? A wee bit of irony, but whatever.

To each of his own, however. Atheists see this as perfect pay back and much justified while Christians view this as an attack. I'd say that probably 75% of the population doesn't even give a damn one way or the other about these signs; I mean really, who are Christians trying to convert in 1st World nations anyway?

Besides the fact that this can all be perceived as an attack on Islam and Judaism, which share the same god. Hell, any religion that has gods can consider this an attack. But Atheists have all the right to make this "advertisements", if you could call them that.
All the time they spend praying and in church and at religious based things can be subtracted from their life and it actually means that atheists have the longer life.
 

This actually sums up both sides of this debate quite well, I thought. Actually, it is a little biased to the atheists, but the point is still pretty clear that most religions want certain rights from everyone else that they are not willing to grant to others.

It's relevant to this discussion because the christians expect that they can just do whatever they want, ie the bus ads, and not expect retaliation. When retaliation is offered, they think it's disresepectful.
 
Oh, and SoD, might I suggest opening your mind just a tad more? You don't have to denounce God or burn your bible, just listen to what other people say with an attitude of "Maybe there's something worth thinking about here" instead of putting up an iron defense (or acid armor if you prefer :P) around your mind before you start reading. (And I'm sure there are a few other people out there who could stand to do the same.)
I have been saying both sides are stupid. I thought i have been pretty open. i have Just been explaining christianity. I've said i didn't discount evolution or an alternate theory. All i've said is that a god gives people a starting point of life. Whereas evolution just kinda leaves ya hanging. Where does the cell that starts everything come from? Everything must have an origin right? That's it. I've not attacked or claimed anyone was wrong. Forgive me if i sound defensive that was never my intention.

Glad me and mor cleared up our discussion. Even though i think that there had to be some other reason than for humans to spontaneously think of a god to worship in the face of the unexplained. Either way i'm probably done since this threads trickling down.

lols at the comic.
 

Vineon

Fleurdelysé
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Yep, seen those in Montréal.

It made some small waves, it is likely to make a lot more of them in Calgary where you live, yeah. I'm actually surprised they are allowing them over there.

I smirk whenever religious groups get offended so I say bring more of those.

:)
 

Altmer

rid this world of human waste
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I think my gripe with all of this (and I understand why atheists did what they did) is that nobody should tell anyone else how to live their life. If you are stupid enough to believe in a pink bunny that created to universe, well, that's you and your problems, but don't make it anyone else's problem. I don't think there is a God (I fall in the atheist camp as well) and I think organised religion is the most retarded thing in the history of retarded things, but things like this are something we can't do anything about until our educational system functions properly and is not reliant on the gifts of people with self-interest.

It's not about which religion you adhere to. It's that you learn to think for yourself, critically, and that is what organised religion does not benefit from. If you really want to fight those kinds of people, study for yourself, study the world, and make up your own mind. What these atheists are doing is merely the response of "an eye for an eye" versus the regular Christian dogmatic approach. It's not correct, but what can you do?

Let people have their own solaces and thoughts, for comfort, as silly as they may be, and as logically irrational as they may be, but let them keep them tothemselves, and let these idiotic theories not be spread to those who have the ability to conclude for themselves what the world is made of. I don't care what religion you fucks believe in (even though I still equate believing in God to believing in Santa Claus) but please don't have the hypocrisy, arrogance or self-importance to tell others.
 

DM

Ce soir, on va danser.
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Holy shit, am I behind. Selective replies, then:

I'm going to second Mormoopid and ask what exactly the point of deism is, then. Is it simply to believe in a supernatural creator but reject the Bible or Koran or Torah or whatever? Because those are pretty much the only things that assign any qualities to gods at all. Without them, what you're saying is 'I believe that someone created the universe', which is pretty meaningless and given logic and science and all is much less likely than 'something created the universe', which in turn makes less sense than 'the universe exists'. It sounds more like vague spirituality than any sort of belief.
The whole point of deism/agnosticism is to realize that there is/could be a power in this universe greater than man, but that organized religions do not reflect the impetus of that being. Also, you're limiting your description of said being to a "supernatural creator," which is completely missing the point of those faiths.

Capitalizing his name doesn't lend credence to that religion over all in any way; capitalizing it is a sign of respect to those that do believe, it's a little thing you can do to demonstrate you're not a dickhole (not that you are). Despite the contempt I hold for them on a very broad level, or at least their beliefs, I figure it's usually better to just do it in the hopes they show me the same respect that I fein for them. Mind you, there are other times when I don't capitalize it cause I'm lazy or because I'm trying to be a dick.
I see what you're saying. The way I've always looked at it is this: I don't believe in any god, therefore I have no reason to capitalize it. It's not any disrespect towards anyone's beliefs, but I use "god" as a blanket to cover Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, and any other deity that has capture the hearts of the people.

It's kind of like watered down relativism, isn't it? Anything in which you define your faith for yourself instead of taking it spoonfed from an outside source is basically relativism, and I really don't see a difference. I know I kind of berated Gorm for it on page one, but I would generally like to understand what is going on a little bit more- is it because people don't like the exact rules being imposed on it, or is it because they would rather just hand wave their way into a nice non-commital view of life? Just believing in god but not following the traditions and all that hocus pocus really does allow you to go both ways; if you decide later that god is real (or he just so happens to be), you can flip flop and say you always believed. If you decide that he isn't real at some point, you can easily say "I pretty much didn't believe in him all along". Am I right?
I find this kind of unfair, I don't really think you're giving people of faith much credit.

Call me crazy but marx probably isn't the best man to quote either.
He's only the most influential political mind of the past 200 years. You're right: what the hell does he know?

@DM - the only reason I say God is to argue with them on their grounds. Confucius capitalizes Goodness and Virtue and Daoists capitalize The Way because it is what they are singling out as important. I do not think of it as admitting that their God is the only God or anything, but rather that I am arguing against their beliefs by acknowledging what they feel is important is important enough to merit my dissension, just as I would to dismiss Confucious's concepts of Virtue. Not that I am telling you to stop writing it god, but this is one case where even I do not find it a big deal, and I despise religion.[/quote]

Yeah, I see your point. Capitalizing god isn't exactly me lending credence to their religious beliefs, but I freely admit that a big reason why I don't is personal and really petty: I don't like how they've assimilated that word to mean their one and only lord. The commandment says not to take the lord's name in vain... his name isn't god, it's fucking Jehovah. There, I just really took it in vain.

the reason marx would not be good for the quotes is because he is obviously self proclaimed godless. It didn't mix well with the founding fathers who most believe to be quite religious.
Having faith and being religious are very different things.

I could also argue Hitler was a genius and a quote would be good from him to. I don't think genius is the best criteria.
"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge."
-Adolf Hitler

You cannot dismiss Hitler as a great mind because of the Holocaust. If he hadn't been brazen enough to attack Russia we'd probably be typing in German right now.
 

6A9 Ace Matador

veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE
DM, Hitler was either a genius or a great gambler, either way he screwed himself over being gung ho enough to charge into Russia, and then pick a fight with America.

The fact of the matter is guys, we all know it's wrong that Christians or Atheists or whatever try shoving their beliefs down other people's throats, but the fact that Christians have Bible pasages and such to justify spreading the faith, in their eyes, makes it acceptable for them to go out and do such things, where as in an atheist went out and did it (Call me bias), it would only be out of revenge / spite for the christian. Therefore, the Christian is only following his Faith, which he beleives above all else is correct, where as the Atheist is doing it out of Spite, which is "wrong", depending on your morals.

Edit: Just posting to say i agree completely with everything Tangerine just stated. Point 1, being the one all of you should keep in mind while posting here or in religious discussion related threads.
 
I think the point is that (post)modern society has, for better or worse, outgrown a Supreme Being. This applies whether you happen to believe in one or not. Some of you may have seen the latest religion surveys indicating a continual increase in the irreligious population. In effect, Gott ist tot. For 2500 years Western society has been addicted to a Supreme Being, whether it be Yahweh/Allah, Plato's The Good, the Deists' Clockmaker, etc., and suddenly it is no longer convincing. This "addiction" is what led Kierkegaard and Dostoyevsky's attempts to salvage Christianity by existentializing it and Schopenhauer's and Nietzsche's attempts to substitute some form of "will". What is clear is that traditional, medieval-style Platonic Christianity should be abandoned as quickly as possible, yet many Christians (unwittingly, perhaps) refuse to do so. Whether we must replace Christianity or simply drop it is another issue, as human beings do seem "wired" for religious belief and some form of "spirituality" (not supernaturalism!) does convey certain benefits. I recommend reading the Epilogue to Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces as it is very much in this vein.
It is not only that there is no hiding place for the gods from the searching telescope and microscope; there is no such society any more as the gods once supported.
Joseph Campbell
Also, SoD, I fail to see why citing Marx is not permissible. His being "avowed godless" was sort of the point if I am not mistaken. Also, Hitler would likely have gone down as one of, if not the, greatest leader in German history until 1941ish, when he invaded Russia and began slaughtering Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, etc. He carried out a socioeconomic revolution and united a downtrodden, splintered nation under the Nazi banner. His propaganda machine alone would be enough to label him a political genius, albeit a mendacious and evil one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top