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Auto weather poll

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by MeteorMiss, Jan 23, 2013.

?

What should Smogon do regarding auto weather?

  1. Ban Drizzle

    149 vote(s)
    26.9%
  2. Ban all Auto-weather

    112 vote(s)
    20.3%
  3. Keep it as it is

    292 vote(s)
    52.8%
Thread Status:
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  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Something that I've read is that another reason why rain is so popular and tend to be considered "broken" is because many threats are easier to fit on rain, and/or work well more with it than sand or sun, for example.

    Breloom, for example, is a pokémon that is easier to fit on rain. Try using it on sun, it will just compound your weakness to Fire and Ice, alongside your Chlorophyll sweeper (as there is no reason to use Breloom over the Chlorophyl sweeper). On sandstorm teams, you are forced to use sets with Poison Heal or Choice items, as Breloom is not immune to sand damage, and unlike Celebi, it does not have acess to a healing move. If you use Life Orb, your Breloom will not going to survive a lot of time (I speak this from my own experience). And it offers no defensive synergy whatsover due to its frailty. However, Breloom works well on rain because it doesn't have these problems, and can even have its Fire-weakness mitigated, and can check threats from opposing rain teams, and sand teams.

    Thundurus-T, on other hand, is an example of Pokémon that work well mor with rain than sand or sun. It can be, for example, a main sweeper or revenge killer for a sand team. I've remember of using its Scarf set on a sun team, and it did a good job. However, it does a much better job on rain teams because it will have access to a 100% accurate Thunder, which is clearly better than Thunderbolt. It will also protect the rain team from a great weakness that they tend to have: Electric. Sand or sun teams generally don't have the tendency to have weakness to Electric-type attacks, so Thundurus-T does not offer that much defensive synergy with them.
  2. Aquasition

    Aquasition

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    You do get what and where the signature is from right?

    Well, if I'm right, wasn't a test done a while back that allowed Groudon and Kyogre into OU at lvl 78, but they were still considered Uber material because of the support their abilities gave? I believe this happened during the ADV days though?
  3. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    It was actually in the CAP Metagame (around the creating of Pyroak) to see if autoweather abilites were broken in Gen IV.
  4. Aquasition

    Aquasition

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    Ah, thanks.


    Well, to be fair, the reason I'm saying to bring in Rayquaza in OU(at a reduced level, if need be) is because most Pokemon carrying Cloud Nine/ Air lock are very hard to use in OU. The only Pokemon that have these abilities are Lickitung line, the Swablu line, and the Psyduck line. The only one of these that are remotely viable on OU is Lickylicky( STAB EXPLOOOSSSION!!!)(Altaria is 90% outclassed by Salamence, and Golduck has competition with Starmie), and even then, the amount of tweaking needed to fit Lickylicky on a team is quite a lot. Don't forget that Cloud nine/Air lock only neutralizes weather for the duration the ability wielder is on the field.
  5. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    that is never going to happen. If something is broken, the answer is not to add more broken things to the meta to balance it out. If you think that the council is ever going to approve allowing 'mons in so long as they are at a reduced level, you have obviously not paid attention to the metagame.
  6. Deglas

    Deglas

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    So, I think I might change camps to ban all weather. Why? Because I can give myself no satisfactory answer to this question:

    Why, other than Deoxys-D Hyper Offense, should I run a weatherless team, when weather teams are easier to build and easier to use?
  7. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
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    Rayquaza will never be considered for OU for a plethora of reasons, that I'm sure I don't even need to state here. Anyway, even if we dropped it, it would probably barely scratch weather based teams, considering that the effect of Cloud Nine ceases as soon as the Pokemon is switched out.
  8. Aquasition

    Aquasition

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    Hey, we don't have to throw ALL the ubers into it. Besides, we've unbanned Kyurem-B. Granted, Rayquaza has a better move set, but with SR weakness, base 95 Speed, and a weakness to Ice Shard. It might have Spikes immunity, but with 105/90/90 Defences, compared to Kyu-B's 120/100/90 makes it much more fragile to the likes of Terrakion, Faster Dragons(Haxorus, Hydreigon, Salamence, Garchomp, Lati's), and Faster pokemon packing HP Ice/Ice beam.

    Also, how would Rayquaza be broken in the current BW2 OU? 150/150 attack stats? What if he doesn't get to use them via outspeeding/Resisting Fire move/ Resisting Outrage.

    Dragon Dance? Switch to faster scarfer on Setup turn, then use appropriate move.

    Swords Dance/Choice Band/ Mixed? That Base 95 Speed is going to be his downfall.

    Scarf? Predict which move he's going to use, and switch accordingly: Outrage to Steel types, fire attack to Dragon types etc. etc.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Oh gosh not more of this stupid #FreeRay crap. It's not doing anything to rain as the ability is only going to work while he is in. (as Haunter already pointed out) If anything, rain will just get another toy as it will finally have a dragon that can roast those steels.

    Oh and SD Ray sweeps Ubers with ESpeed...
  10. Nachos

    Nachos Good player alert!
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    BW2 OU is a terrible metagame because its foundation is terrible. This gen added dozens of new powerful pokemon and powerful abilities without providing a good way to stop them and its pretty clear to see it was never going to end well. Even if we banned weather 2 years ago, new shit would have just taken its place, and it would have come to the point where we'd be banning something new every month. While that is just theory, its not unreasonable to say that is what we'd have ended up with, considering you can look at the powerful non weather based threats today in a weather basd metagame and see how they preform, like SF Landorus and SubSD Terrakion.

    I don't think rain is necessarily broken, especially now that we've banned Torn-T. I think the problem lies in that the teambuilding aspect of pokemon is almost dead, and that teams (rain in particular) have become pathetically easy to use. The introduction of weather and the new users of it has meant the thinking aspect of teambuilding has gone, and teams effectively build themselves. The worst case of this was the final BW1 metagame, when the standard team was Tyranitar/Landorus/Scizor/Rotom-W/Celebi/Terrakion, with the occassional one pokemon swap, usually for Latios or another dragon. You don't need to be good at this game to make that, and you needn't be much better to use it effectively. This obviously causes frustration as in the past (gens 2, 3, 4), you had to actually know what you were doing when you built your team. Nowadays, randomplayer1234 can win a game based of the team he's using and whether he's got good team matchup (sometimes the latter makes no difference). The ingame battle has been simplified too, especially with team preview. You simply need to remove one or two problem pokemon most of the time and the game is yours, and if you're running a weather team its usually the other weather starter and maybe something like Rotom-W. I actually think the game has gotten so dumbed down that outside of maybe one or two people who win consistently, there's no such thing as cream of the crop BW players. Once you reach a certain level, you just float around with everyone else, beating them on a good day (usually getting good team matchup) and losing (when you don't). In the DPP and ADV tours, when you got a known top player, your heart just sinks a bit, you don't really get that with BW2, and that's why I think a lot of top players at least hate weather and BW2. For the record, I'm pro-weather, and I think it's sort of a scapegoat for the actual problem - BW itself.

    Someone before referred to Doug's post in PR. That post is outdated, but I think we should be working towards making a sort of constitution for gen 6.
  11. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    SD Rayquaza has extremespeed. Let's not try to nitpick and actually say that freeing rayquaza is a good idea. Because it isn't. I've used SD ray in ubers, and it can easily break through the bulkiest 'mons in UBERS much less anything in OU.

    V-Create/Extremespeed/Dragon Claw can easily slaughter most of the metagame.


    You can't use Kyurem-B as an example because Kyurem-B and Rayquaza are two completely different beasts. Kyurem-B lacks any set up moves outside of Hone Claws, which isn't exactly a top tier move. Rayquaza on the other hand has a massive offensive movepool, as well as two very good set up moves.

    You are completely insane if you think that Rayquaza would improve OU at all.
  12. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    If you think the teambuilding aspect of Pokemon is dead, it's because of influx of new people looking to win quickly and simply copying the best teams out there, not because the metagame is shit.

    It is still perfectly possibly to build creative and successful teams. I've been using a team of Politoed / Parasect / Kabutops (now Sharpedo since the SS+Drizzle Ban) / Jirachi / Gliscor (now Keldeo since BW2) / Forretress for literally over 2 years, and I'm consistently in the top 10 of the ladder when I play - sometimes at the top.
  13. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    ah yes. I remember playing against you on PO quite a while ago. It actually caused me to start using parasect on one of my teams because of some of the things it could troll around against

    the problem I'm seeing with rain is that it's causing cookie-cutter teams to flood the ladder, which aren't helping the meta develop at all. A typical rain team pre-tornadus ban was Politoed/Ferrothorn/Tentacruel/Tornadus-T/something/something

    It's certainly possible to build a non-generic team on the ladder, but the problem is that a large population of users aren't going to do that.
  14. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    I am going to infract the next motherfucker who brings up Rayquaza. All have been duly warned.
  15. Aquasition

    Aquasition

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    Rayq-*shot*



    I guess one reason Rain teams are used so much is that Toed is one of the more usable weather starters. It's not as vulnerable to trapping as TTar and 'Tales are, as it has less trouble with dugtrio, due to not being EQ weak, and having it's STAB SE vs Dugtrio. Wobba is in trouble of Toxic if it tries to trap, leaving Gothitelle as the best bet to stop Toed.

    Toed is also less vulnerable to SR than 'Tales and Aboma, as well as being bulkier, due to its typing and stats. It has no X4 weakness, unlike TTar and Aboma, it lacks as many weaknesses as all the other weather starters. Granted, TTar is more durable stat wise.

    There's also what rain does. It boosts water-type attacks by 50%, and reduces fire attacks by 50%, something sun does in reverse. There's also making thunder and hurricane 100% accurate, which is much more painful than Solarbeam having no charge time.

    If you want to use rain, try using Rain Dance and Wet rock? together. It allows you to use Swift swim at least

    Take a few deep breaths, step back, and squeeze something with your hand. Feel better? Good.
  16. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Haha thanks, yes it's definitely effective!

    But what makes you think getting rid of rain or all weather is going to change the way people approach team building? Assuming (as I do) that the problem isn't the over-centralizing aspect of weather, but that the majority of people are simply lazy and uncreative.

    I'm not gonna argue that the OU metagame is centralized around weather. Any metagame is gonna centralize around some particular aspect - Gen V OU just happens to be weather. Banning weather is just gonna change what people use, not necessarily the usage distribution (which is the real problem when people talk about over-centralization).

    A much more productive solution to banning stuff is encouraging people to try new things out. This is a very unpolished and rough idea, but one way we could potentially do this is by implementing a mechanic in the ladder system whereby players get more points when they win with less commonly used Pokemon.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    It doesn't - people have always stolen teams / used cookie-cutter teams since the days of NetBattle and ADV, so blaming it on Rain is obviously wrong. Banning Rain would simply mean there would be 3 major different team archetypes from which people can steal teams rather than 4.

    That's what made Older gens (ADV and under) kinda stale at the end, because everybody was using the same 1 to 2 team templates. At least in BW there's more variety of cookie-cutter teams to keep it interesting, despite people being lazy.
  18. Aquasition

    Aquasition

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    Sounds like a good idea. However, it's going to take a lot of tweaking to make those teams work. That aside, it'd be interesting to see what people can come up with. Lesser used pokes that aren't currently in OU sometimes have a hard time in OU due to worse stats, movepools, abilities, and/or typing. I guess that's why lower tiers(and sometimes, Ubers) are more creative.
  19. Raikaria

    Raikaria

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    Basically this.

    I think the message should have been clear when Smogon took extreme measures and banned Swift Swim + Drizzle together, and Drizzle was STILL overcentalising, dominant, and a suspect multiple times after that, with votes up to the 40's to ban it.

    We've managed to ban Manaphy, Swift Swim + Drizzle, Thunderus, Tornadus-T, and, to a lesser extent, Genesect [May have been broken anyway], to preserve rain, and it's arguably broken.

    So that's 4 pokemon bans [Three if Genesect would be broken without rain], and a bending of the rules to stop us banning at least three more, to save Drizzle. I think it's pretty clear now that the problem was Drizzle, it broke too many things.

    We should have just trusted what CAP told us in Gen 4 when they tested Drizzle/Drought for Pyroak. That both abilities are broken. Would have saved Gen 5 a lot of pain, just trusting the CAP3 team, banning Drizzle/Drought outright, and then banning Excadrill.

    Not to mention we wouldn't have to hear 'WAT ABOUT BLAZIKEN + SPEED BOOST BAN111!' for the thousandth time because of Swift Swim + Drizzle.

    To those who say Drizzle shouldn't have been banned in the past, I ask you this: How did Drizzle help the BW/BW2 metagames? How did it improve it?
  20. FairPlayFairGame

    FairPlayFairGame

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    I vote for it to stay the same.
    It is true that Rain Teams have become more and more common, but the same was in the Generation III and even more in the Generation IV with sands stream, and we see that the same is happening with weatherless teams, which are only made ​​with the idea to counter the weather teams, we are returning to the generation I and II where we had little to choose from when making a team (Snorlax, Tauros, Starmie, Alakazam, etc) just that now we have more pokémons to choose from but the players "almost always" choose the same Pokémons in every team, is not weather fault, is that most of the players do not have the power to make new things or play with their own strategies, take as example RMT where "almost" all the new player or those who doesn't know how to make a team go, and there they only steal a team from there and rely on the same strategies of others, this is called laziness, as the weather-less teams posted by alexwolf, all three are similar and have similar threats, so players want to play it safe and not take risks (with the exception of the one with zoroark, gratz with the team LucaroarkZ), with this way of thinking the metagame will not improve, and if the rain ends banned, then i will return to the habit of using the damp rock with rain dance, which I think is much better for the facility to activate at any time during the game and the possibility of having any pokémon with rain dance and take your opponent by surprise.
    but the other problem would be GF itself, for making the metagame so offensive inclined. i so hope the gen 6 bring more balance to the meta with the introduction of more defensive pokémon.
  21. BKC

    BKC
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    I want Drizzle and Drought banned, but I don't think it's broken in the case of the former [only because we've spent the entire generation bending over backwards to make sure no matter how many things we ban, Drizzle won't be one of them]. The reason I want them banned is because I believe they place an unhealthy emphasis on team matchup. Our goal is to make the most competitive metagame possible, i.e. one where the better player will usually win. There are matchups you will find in BW where literally no matter how well you play, you cannot win, and it's not because of "bad teambuilding", it's because of the weather wars.

    Before I go further: sun and rain are the abusable weathers, they are the ones creating this team matchup dilemma; games involving sand, hail, or no weather are decided by making a group effort towards killing all 6 of your opponent's mons. They are not nearly as prone to matchup as sun/rain are.

    Anyways, this weather war thing that means you're either abusing it [remember, this is only sun/rain], bending over backwards to beat it, or you're losing to it because you were making sure you didn't get fucked by the other weather. Identical matchups are coinflips, there are some matchups you can't lose, others you can't win. Does that sound like an ideal metagame that promotes skill above all else? Obviously team match-up is always going to be a factor, but it should not be to the extent that games are instantly won or lost based on what you and your opponent brought.

    Here is a common example, using two generic teams:

    Team 1: any kind of Politoed | any kind of Tornadus | any kind of Keldeo | Double Dance Thundurus-T | SD Toxicroak | SR Spikes Ferrothorn
    Team 2: Hippowdon | Forretress | Gastrodon | Celebi | Jirachi | last doesn't even matter

    No matter how well team 1 plays, it can't win, as long as team 2's user has half a brain and makes the simple plays. There are other such matchups that are pretty much unwinnable right from the start [to name a few: offensive sun absolutely murders rain stall, which shits on Deoxys-D, which rapes offensive sun without a Magic Bouncer, in which case it gets raped] -- and they all have sun or rain involved.

    Also, contrary to what UltiMario said, team preview is not causing team match-up issues. No one is trying to make this DPP II. We are trying to make the most competitive metagame possible. That can't happen while Drizzle and Drought remain in the game.
  22. Cyrrona

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    Strongly agree with Nachos and a few other posters... Rain is not the sole reason for the tier's centralization and reliance on team matchup. The responsibility is split between most auto-weather in general, the ridiculous number of new offensive threats introduced this generation, and a variety of other factors. Pulling Drizzle out of this equation won't leave us with a substantially more varied, competitive, or "fair" metagame; it'll only invalidate the work we've done (and the direction we've collectively set, for that matter) for Generation 5 tiering and leave us with, in all likelihood, an equally stale, team-matchup-reliant metagame dominated by sun and sand. BW--by its nature--will never play like DPP or other previous generations do, and the sooner we accept that, the sooner we'll be able to move past this and set realistic metagame goals for future suspect tests. (Speaking of future suspect tests, I'd also like to second Melee Mewtwo's Deoxys-D nomination.)
  23. FairPlayFairGame

    FairPlayFairGame

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    why dont do a suspect tests of the meta without sun/rain teams with SS unbanned as well as tornadus-t, so we can see if Poli-rain/sun-tails truly deserve to be banned to ubers with kyogre and groudon. and with this suspect tests all player can make weather less teams or sand teams without to worry of boosted fire blast/Hydro pumps, dry skin, rain dish or chlorophyll, etc. and make truly new original teams or to star using damp/heat rock again.

    Thx to Shrang and sorry if i took your comment from other thread without permission, but what you say is totally true.

    this truly would make things easier and will improve the meta in terms of originality.
  24. TheWaddleDeeKing

    TheWaddleDeeKing

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    Personally, the problem for me is that weather (rain mostly) is just so abusable and easily workable with it's not even funny. It's not incredibly hard to slap on Ferrothorn and Keldeo on a rain team and start raping face with it. Boosted Hydro Pumps take a toll on mostly everyone, and the few rain counters there are (the first ones off the top of my head include Jellicent, Celebi, Blissey and Ferrothorn) can be worked around through proper team structure. That sounds counter productive with my previous statement but mostly it just strips down team-making to a team of five that comes alongwith free resistances and 100% accurate Thunders, with the weather inducer only mattering in weather wars. This is my big problem with rain especially, though I wouldn't mind if Sun got the boot too, is that keeping Politoed alive isn't too hard when you come with only two, slightly uncommon weaknesses and many useful resists. Compared to Tyranitar/Hippowdon or Abomasnow, who have many crippling weaknesses that keep them from being as effective as possible. Ninetales actually falls into this category too, normally resulting in weather wars leading to rains victory due to having crippling weaknesses to Stealth Rocks, Ground, Rock, and (of course) Water. It's just mind numbing how dumb it is to make a decent rain team with little effort.

    Compare all that to a non-weather team. Non-weather teams take a lot of theoretical planning and structural thinking in order to even have a chance at being successful. On top of that, they still take quite a bit of trial and error until you tinker with it just right to where it's competitively viable. However, on top of all of this, now they have to deal with, "Oh, how many Hydro Pumps can my Skarmory take under the rain? Will Keldeo screw over my defensive core of Heracross and Heatran?" on top of everything else. I'm certainly not saying that weather teams have no structure or thought put into them, but the output is generally less (I can see an argument there if you really want to make it, I've built all types of teams and I get more success out of rain and Sun teams more often). I get it, the metagame constantly changes, it can't all be like DPPt. However, when it takes much more effort to make a competitive non-weather team than a weather based team, it takes much less skill to become a decent player when all you need to do is keep hitting that Hydro Pump to get good damage off on something. That's not skill. That's simplicity.

    I could say a whole lot about Sun teams too though generally it's rain teams to a much less (but still effective) extent (have you ever faced Trick Room Victini!?). I have absolutely no problem with sand or hail, due to sand's only real abuser being Landorus, who is still extremely vulnerable to Ice and Water-type attacks, and hail teams having to use a plethora of Ice-types. Truly it just annoys me that the skill level goes down with weather teams but the success goes up. Really rain or Sun bring almost nothing new to the metagame other than more counters to think of in the team building process and a much harder time with non-weather teams. Truly the best argument I could think of to let them stay is due to how developed the metagame already is, and disrupting a huge portion at this point will require even more testing. That's a fair argument honestly, though it's not like it's the first time we've banned anything game changing from the metagame, past or present. It's not like if we banned rain Pokemon like Keldeo or Tornadus would be less useful (although banning Sun would put Venusaur out of the job :() in the current metagame, they would still just be as useful outside of rain as they are now as they would be if rain was banned.
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Why does everybody keep saying we've spent all our time trying to avoid banning Drizzle? We banned SS + Drizzle, Tornadus-T and Manaphy. (not even sure if we can lump it all on Rain seeing as Tail Glow got buffed to +3) Thundurus-I was mostly banned due to 111 speed + NP + 125 SpAtk with annoying Prankster stunts gathering more rage. (There's obviously a large chance that I'm wrong. I tried to find the old thread to confirm/deny my memory but I couldn't find it) Rain had nothing to do with Genesect getting banned and it actually shot up in usage as soon as he was kicked. That makes a grand total of 2-4 bans that were made in the place of Drizzle. (depending on how much you think Manaphy and Thundy needed rain) I wouldn't exactly call that bending your backwards to avoid banning Drizzle. (which already was suspected way back when with all of the other auto weathers)
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