BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[motherlove]

Has everyone forgotten about suction cups (which completely prevents any mon from forcing you to switch) or sob this just me?

It would, yes. However, using unviable mons to check a broken strategy isn't sustainable or desirable; it just makes a game theory setup where you can either beat real teams or beat comaphazing. Even Suction Cups is better than Magic Bounce Mimikyu.
With that being said, there are answers. Magic Bounce Audino, Prankster Ingrain, Regenerator, Prankster/triage recovery, and similar (anything that lets you actually move, basically, even priority sorta) let you deal at least somewhat with comaphazing without being completely unviable.

 

[Rumors]

I'm not even in the mood for long drawn out arguement posts right now, so let's just get this messy quote fest over with.

Better doesn't mean outclassed? Pdon and MMx are pretty much the only pokemon that use v-create, maybe MRay; Spectral theif has dozens of users, and is basically good regardless of stats; you could have an attack of 5. Hellp, look at genesis supernova; it's the most dangerous of the attacking Z-moves, simply because it has a secondary affect. As far as moves are concerned, BP is hardly the biggest concern... unlike how BST is the biggest concern on mons. Yes, there is correlation, but less so than BST has.

Spectral Thief is unique in that it's a support move with usable base power. However, I'd guess at least roughly half, probably much more, of the tier is running it for utility over damage, so it wouldn't matter what its BP is. V-Create, meanwhile has zero support utility. You use it, you nuke things, and your stat changes. Registeel might want Spectral Thief, but it'll never want V-Create. Also, saying only those three only use V-Create is a bit off since Contrary is a thing and almost every Contrary, physical or special, run it. Its also a favorite move of niche stuff like Mega-Blaziken, who doesn't have the bulk to afford not OHKOing whatever's in front of it.

Yes? You just argued my point? High base power isn't enough; if you want to say a move is broken, you have to do more than list it's /dt facts with an editorial or two.
Don't mention pre-510, please, because that's totally irrelevant. As for the rest of thI have to admit i don't have a clue what point you're trying to make, so consider rewording it or explaining?

Basically, I can take Mega-Rayquaza. It excels at being a fast, offensive sweeper. However, it has the stats that I can run a support set, like Mold Breaker Spore, Parting Shot, etc. It also has enough bulk that I can dump EVs into HP instead of Speed, not use a defense-reducing nature like Aerilate Mega-Ray loves to do, and make a bulky attacker or wall breaker. Or I can come up with some weird hybrid set. It's still better as a fast glasscannon, but its BST lets it do multiple roles. Meanwhile, Registeel lacks speed or offenses to really do anything offensive, so its relegated to support and wall sets. It's much less flexible because of its stat distribution.

Now look at CFZs. I can't turn something like Oceanic Opera into support move. It has zero utility and will always have zero utility, only raw power. I can't turn it into a defensive move. It has zero defensive qualities and I can't give it defensive qualities. 7/9 of the CFZs are going to be offensive attacks no matter what because that's what they are. I can't play with their base stat totals to make something else. Exceptions are Supernova and Sparksurfer since they do have some utility, although they're poor utility moves because of their 1 PP. Offense moves you can get away with 1 PP because you only need to OHKO something once. Utility needs to be used repeatedly in a match.

Anyway, side-track there aside, CFZs =/= stoneless megas (Stone-Free Megas? SFMs?) because CFZs are not customizable at all and have massively outlier stats comparedto all but a tiny handfull of moves, most of which with drawbacks too big to consider using normally. Whereas Megas can be customized like a regular Pokemon and, with likely exception of GKR and Mewtwos, do not have outlier stats nor do they avoid drawbacks that Pokemon of similar BST have.

"I OHKOed enough Registeel with Oceanic Opera or SSSSS or Castropika to know."
252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Catastropika vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Oceanic Operetta vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 209-247 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Deoxys-Attack Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 209-246 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Did you really even play the metagame? Well no, you made recs so I'm sure you did, but I'm still bamboozled as to where you came up with this crap.

Crits, particularly with 10k Thunderbolts (I get the Electric moves confused occasionally). And, apparently some of my opponents had bad EV spreads since I know I non-crit OHKOeda couple of Registeels with Oceanic. And considering the all had to slog through the low ladder, that seems possible. I guess I was giving some of my opponents too much credit? ...I feel like a dick saying that though.

No, that requires them to switch in two, or else they can just recover, or OHKO with metal burst; if you arent using on of those moves on the switch, then you arent winning. But hey, that was one example, want another?

I don't feel like arguing over "the best Xtwo set for KOing Fur Coat Giratina", but just please stop assuming the defensive player will perfectly predict the CFZ and use Recover on that turn or use, or even have, Metal Burst for the same reason. Recover-spam to try to survive is a position you don't want to be in, so the Giratina, if at full health, will 99% of the time use a different move if they don't know about the CFZ. And if they do, the Mewtwo, or whatever else, can mind-game the hell out of them.

"Well the Giratina would just use Recover!" "Well the Mewtwo would waste the Tina's PP by using Psychic Fangs!" "Well the Giratina would use Metal Burst!" "Well the Mewtwo would use Spore!" "Well the Giratina would use Magic Coat!" "Well the Mewtwo would use Substitute!" "My theoretical top-level player is smarter, more skilled, and better at predictions than yours is!" "Nu uh, mine is better!" type of arguements are utterly dumb, wind up creating unrealistic sets, and do not in any way reflect actual gameplay except in rare circumstances.

Um. No. Mega Evolutions aren't "a match for legendaries, they are better then them, by even more than Z-moves are over regular moves. MRay, Primal Groudon*, Primal Kyogre, MMY, and MMX aren't just "Near the top" like Z-moves; they are the top, there are none higher. BST directly, irrefutably correlates with power; of the top 7 BST Pokemon, 4 are S rank, 2 are A+, and 1 B, while the top 7 BST (10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, Catastropika, Explosion, Oceanic Operetta, Pulverizing Pancake, Self-Destruct, Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike) are not the top 7, or even the top 3, moves.

No, Megas are a match of legendaries, if by virtue that the top five you listed are all legendaries. I could go on about semantics here, but it'd be dumb and irrelevant, so I won't.

Also, do we have a viability list for BH moves anywhere to back your "these aren't even top 10!" statements?

No, you have no idea what you are talking about. None of this is true.
I'm not sure where you picked this up, but this is all false. BP is not additively multipicative when it comes to stab+items:
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 131-155 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 197-232 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (50% increase)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (50% Increase)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 590-696 (183.8 - 216.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (100% increase)

Because they would be broken with huge power, ban all z-moves? That's rlly dumb, especially since we, y'know, banned huge power already.

Oh boy, I get to explain this again.

Look, basically, how the game works, you can figure out effective base power by multiplying all the modifiers into the base power (hence multiplicative), and then adding them together (hence additive) to get the final number.

So lets do Water Spout since you're using it. Base Power 150. STAB is 50%, so you multiple 150 by .5 to get 75 and then add it to that. Choice Specs effectively works as another 50%, so do the same thing. Boom, 250 now. So let's plug this into the calculator aaaandd....

...its hard-coded to modify Water Spouts BP based on what you set for the Pokemon's HP and regardless of what you set BP to now. Bah.

Rambling math as I remind myself how to calculate this correctly.)

OKAY, Surf then. 90 + 45 for STAB...

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 188-222 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - No STAB, BP 135 Surf
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Normal conditions

Now let's add another 50%.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 282-333 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Stab)
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 251-296 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (No STAB, BP 180)

...something seems off here since if give both STAB...

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 282-333 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (BP 135)
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 376-444 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (BP 180)

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 282-333 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Effective 135)
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 376-444 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Effective 180)

It works perfectly. Hmmm... is the calculator giving STAB a larger boost than +50%? Because...

252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 378-446 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Effective 180)

...this checks out too.

Oh wait, I think I know what I'm doing wrong. I forgot the order this all adds up in.

BP * Modifier = X * next modifier = X * next modifier = X and so on.

So... 90 * 2 (Adapt makes STAB + 100%) = 180 * 1.5 (Specs) = 270

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 376-443 (110.2 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (No STAB, BP 270)

So... 90 * 1.5 (STAB) = 135 * 1.5 (Specs) = 202.5 * 2 (Bubble) = 405

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 563-663 (165.1 - 194.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (No Stab, BP 405)

252 SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 564-666 (165.3 - 195.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Damn it, there we go. Now my head hurts from my self-refresher. But yeah... anyway... it's somewhat multiplicative. The math checks out.

Oceanic Opera + STAB + Specs: 195 *1.5 = 292.5 * 1.5 = 438.7

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 610-718 (178.8 - 210.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 611-719 (179.1 - 210.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (BP 439, no STAB)

Sooo... yeah... I misremembered how to math quite right but...

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (all normal)

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (BP 292, no STAB)

252 SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 458-542 (134.3 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (all normal)

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 459-541 (134.6 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (No STAB, BP 330)


Oceanic is still pretty friggin' nuts, clocking on at effective BP 292 on something like Kyo-P with just STAB alone. You can only get close enough with Specs + Rain without using Water bubble. Similar for all other Z-moves vs the next best move.

And yeah, BPs are multipliers. I mean, just look at Oceanic with Specs and Rain...

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Oceanic Operetta vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 915-1077 (268.3 - 315.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 914-1076 (268 - 315.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO - BP 658, no STAB

Which translates into...

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Oceanic Operetta vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 466-550 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The best special wall in the game can be OHKOed with a little prior damage. That's just friggin' insane.



Oh, and, I wasn't making an arguement to ban CFZs because what if HP/PP were unbanned, I was just saying you'd need them to easily match CFZ power.

 

[Zrp200]

I was playing around with Deoxys Attack in Custom Battles, and I gave it every single Z Move. No matter what my friend did, it always swept his teams, especially after it got off genesis supernova and invalidated priority. If it can't be checked by a pokemon that can run 24 moves at once and has 252 evs in every stat, I don't think it can be checked by a pokemon with 4 moves and normal stat distribution, regardless of the ability or item ran by the defending Pokémon.

 

[Filia]

Can we stop with the "No deospam counter" yet ?

Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn
- Beat Up
- Ice Hammer

You just have to play around prankster will-o-wisp, innards out chansey/blissey/zygod and some other things that a well built team can take care of.

 

[Zukrad]

Can we stop with the "No deospam counter" yet ?

Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- U-turn
- Beat Up
- Ice Hammer

You just have to play around prankster will-o-wisp, innards out chansey/blissey/zygod and some other things that a well built team can take care of.

That is not a counter, that is a check

And having to run Scarf Phero in every team just to deal with deo spam is kind of dumb

 

[ARandomNoob]

For the record, Phero has enough speed that you can afford Sash to take whatever the one Scarfed Deo-A will chuck at you, and even special builds can secure a KO given enough attacks. It also doesn't matter if you only consider Phero a check, because it counters Deo-A spam straight up (you see it, you lead phero, click beat up, they forfeit or get swept).

That being said, I'd very much like it if BH got a species clause, because gimping my special Phero build with Beat Up is annoying as hell, and "make 6 of the same Pokémon slightly modified every now and again" is not the kind of play we want to be rewarding.

 

[Rumors]

For the record, Phero has enough speed that you can afford Sash to take whatever the one Scarfed Deo-A will chuck at you, and even special builds can secure a KO given enough attacks. It also doesn't matter if you only consider Phero a check, because it counters Deo-A spam straight up (you see it, you lead phero, click beat up, they forfeit or get swept).

Only against Bad Deo-A teams. Good ones have a Scarf Deo-A, or a Pheremosa or Deo-S of their own, with a multi-hit moves that, if you run anything but Scarf Pheremosa, it loses. And even then, some Deo-A run Prankster Destiny Bond, so if you only use Pheremosa to check Deo-A, you lose. Or they might run Innards Out something and switch it into Pheremosa. Or have Shedinja if you're not running Sungeist Strikeam. Or some other random threat to deal with anti-Deo-As. For example, at the end of my run, I was using a Comatose Shell Smash Power Trip Yveltal to invalidate most Deo-A checks.

Pheremosa only counters bad Deo-A teams. Good ones wreck it and then wreck your team.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I feel like more than half the posts on this thread are irrelevant.

Everything has checks.
The point is, is your check AS OR ALMOST AS usable IN OTHER SITUATIONS as the mon you replaced it with.
If the answer is no, then please don't comment.
For example, for water bubble, these are viable checks


Palkia @ Leftovers
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt
- Core Enforcer
- Scald
- Earth Power

Sceptile-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Eruption
- Clanging Scales
- Volt Switch

Zygarde-Complete @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Metal Burst
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Heal Bell
- Recover
- Metal Burst
- Whirlwind

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Metal Burst
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Kyogre-Primal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer




This is a (sorta) unviable check

Pidgeot-Mega @ Zap Plate
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Oblivion Wing
- Tail Glow
- Substitute

yea its immune to earth power and moongeist and water moves. But its still a freaking pidgeot.
The only positive thing i can say about it is that it can sort of (not really) function outside Kyogre and if you switch into a Kyogre you get a free spectral immune tail glow or sub and it is kind of resistant to chansey.

It isnt the checking that matters. It is the USABILITY.

 

[Rumors]

Azumarill checks Mega-Blaziken in standard. Should OU unban it?

Aegislash checks Mega-Mawile in standard. Should OU unban it?

Shedinja counters Primal Kyogre in standard. Should OU unban it?


Ghost-types counter Shadow Tag in BH. Should we unban it?

Fur Coat checks Huge Power in BH. Should we unban it?

Poison Heal Giratina checks Parental Bond. Should we unban it?

Mold Breaker counters Wonder Guard. Should we unban it?


Point being, having checks/counters =/= broken. It also doesn't address unhealthiness and over-centralization. The latter is especially true when there's a very select few checks/counters that work reliably and you pretty much have to run them to not get destroyed. Or you're having to run really niche stuff that has no other use (such as all these multi-hit Choice Scarf Peremosas running around.)

 

[motherlove]

I feel like more than half the posts on this thread are irrelevant.

Everything has checks.
The point is, is your check AS OR ALMOST AS usable IN OTHER SITUATIONS as the mon you replaced it with.
If the answer is no, then please don't comment.
For example, for water bubble, these are viable checks


Palkia @ Leftovers
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt
- Core Enforcer
- Scald
- Earth Power

Sceptile-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Eruption
- Clanging Scales
- Volt Switch

Zygarde-Complete @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Metal Burst
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Heal Bell
- Recover
- Metal Burst
- Whirlwind

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Metal Burst
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Kyogre-Primal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer




This is a (sorta) unviable check

Pidgeot-Mega @ Zap Plate
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Oblivion Wing
- Tail Glow
- Substitute

yea its immune to earth power and moongeist and water moves. But its still a freaking pidgeot.
The only positive thing i can say about it is that it can sort of (not really) function outside Kyogre and if you switch into a Kyogre you get a free spectral immune tail glow or sub and it is kind of resistant to chansey.

It isnt the checking that matters. It is the USABILITY.

Most of theses I wouldn't consider good checks anyway.

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 220-259 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 293-345 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde: 513-604 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 327-385 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal: 228-268 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In your list, only Chansey and a water absorb mon can switch on that. Others are either outsped and 2HKOd or OHKOd.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

That isn't really an issue tho cuz almost nobody has specs primal spout cuz its counter intuitive to have water spout on a slow thing. Also my point wasnt really to find checks. It was to point out that there are counters to everything but if the counter is usable in no other situation it's a bullshit argument to say "DON'T BAN IT, YOU CAN COUNTER IT WITH THIS OBSCURE THING!"

 

[RNGIsFatal]

That isn't really an issue tho cuz almost nobody has specs primal spout cuz its counter intuitive to have water spout on a slow thing. Also my point wasnt really to find checks. It was to point out that there are counters to everything but if the counter is usable in no other situation it's a bullshit argument to say "DON'T BAN IT, YOU CAN COUNTER IT WITH THIS OBSCURE THING!"

I have to agree. 90 base speed in BH is terrible and very easily revenge killed.
I would say RegenVest Gyarados and Water Absorb are viable checks, but just because there is a check for something does not mean it does not deserve an investigation.
Just like how Huge Power and Pure Power is broken, Water Absorb, I would say, is broken because of doubling damage without any drawbacks.
So I agree with you by 70% and disagree by 30%. hat 30% comes from the fact that some things have checks but a very niche or gimmicky set is necessary.
Innards Out is pretty good solution to any overpowered mons, although not skill-based like Imposter is. This is a good check for everything, and I wouldn't say this is broken because using Innards Out means you forfeit one party slot.

I would like to know your opinion about Comaphaze and your way to check it. Although I don't say anything because I am always locked due to using proxy, I spectate tons of your battles and just want to share opinion with someone who has decent ladder while having good ideas about checking threats in metagame.

(RNG Gives Cancer / FuckingBullshitRNG)

This is my personal opinion about the current meta so if you disagree please comment below with something relevant.

1) Water Bubble
One word. BROKEN.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

First off RNGisCancer, I agree with banning anything if the only way to counter it is gimmicks. The reason I'm not that averse to water bubble because it is so limited. The reason parental bond and huge power are so broken is that they aren't wallable because sets can be adjusted to kill any wall thus making it uncompetitive. Water bubble doesnt necessarily do that and it doesn't force you to add uncommom sets, as I remember usage for red orb groudon was above 20% at some point and chansey was consistently around 40%. Part of good teambuilding is building reliable checks to prelevant strategies and I find it extremely frustrating when I intentionally perpare for something and my opponent can play around it without any trouble. When that happens that's when I decide to ban something. That isn't really true for water bubble. To set the line even further out of the realm of probability lets say that people start running rain wb pogre teams (sorta like swift swim choice palkia teams in gen6 which has only slightly more attack than wbpogre) Even that you can check with a non water absorb mon.

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Palkia in Heavy Rain: 122-144 (31.7 - 37.5%)
+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 255-301 (36.2 - 42.7%)
(I made it water type +gave it 160 spD)

the point is there are 4x resists like sceptile and palkia to work with. I do agree, water bubble is a little OP, but imo a little OPness is good as long as it is controlled, just like -ate. It has a defined wall and is by no means a win scenario. I would like to look into it, but I am flatly against doing it now because of the following abilities... existing.

Innards Out
Comatose
Psychic Surge

for example
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa Circle Throw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (49.1 - 57.8%)

Kyogre is pretty average with 100 90 bulk, so if the other team doesnt have a choice scarf/ghost/or pretty powerful priority moves presumably they will lose
long before pp runs out it isnt like a ghost will stop that either.

252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 192-228 (38 - 45.2%)
252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 151-178 (44.1 - 52%)

scarf ray can outspeed pher :/

And if I dedicated my team to doing that I would assumably have terrain extender and psurge making the only option scarf. Really? Really? That isnt even factoring hazard damage which can stack up to 37.5% on non resists.

So in summation, I attack u until I miss a 90% move and u likely lose without attacking me= ban.


And then there's this
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Kyogre: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%)
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 362-426 (75.7 - 89.1%)
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 744-880 (116.9 - 138.3%)

The point is i can run innards out kyurem, with no downside, and if you hit me and don't kill me, I likely kill you. If you hit me and kill me you die too b/c almost nothing has more than 125 hp. That is really, really, really, really stupid. In terms of competitive battling i can almost be assured a 1v1 AND AT THE SAME TIME, I can let you set up for an extra turn, trade mons, and shift momentum to myself. That is horribly uncompetitive and it's practically unwallable because i can run it on any mon, the HP doesnt even need to be that high if its fast too.

Psychic surge is bad cuz it enables bullshit when the psurge mon is gone like the the phazing. This one is not as urgent but still necessary.

252+ SpA Mewtwo Eruption (150 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 226-266 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primal Kyogre: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%)
252+ SpA Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde: 400-472 (62.8 - 74.2%)

:/ what switch-ins.

Basically water bubble is bad, but not as bad as other things.

 

[Rumors]

Okay... I'll bite and be blunt: who the heck is running max special investment AV Palkia? And what does it even do aside from take a Water Spout from a Water Bubble abuser? And Water Bubble is okay because it can't bypass its Counters? Think again!

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 272-324 (70.8 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 518-610 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...not that it needs specs to 2HKO these "counters"...

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Palkia: 184-220 (47.9 - 57.2%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 346-408 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

...or even need coverage for Chansey...

252+ SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 354-416 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Mega-Sceptile can check if it runs Sheer Force Seed Flare or a boosting item like LO or Specs, but just barely since it can't switch after a bit of prior damage.

252+ SpA Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

Or at all if Kyo-P has some sort of damage boost.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Water Bubble Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nor can it come in on common coverage moves.

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Let's not even try Ice Beam.


Water Bubble Kyo-P is slow enough to be revenge killed, but it's going to blow a hole in your team if it gets in safely and you don't have a hard counter since it can shred your checks on switch if you're not careful. And if you do switch a check in, hopefully it can deal with Kyo-P switching out to a check/counter for your check. And this doesn't even touch set-up Kyo-P, who doesn't need to worry about Water Spout HP since it's probably using Steam Eruption or Origin Pulse and often runs Q.Dance to ruin your chances of revenge KOing. Give it one turn in front of a wall that can't do anything to it and you better prepare to be swept if you don't have your counters ready.

And this doesn't even include other Pokemon, like Water Bubble Mega Gyarados, Geninjash, Palkia, or non-STAB users like Deo-A or Mewtwo-Both.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Chansey was transformed "(I made it water type + gave it 160 spD)" :/ and also that's missing the point. The point is that there are other things far far worse.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

I agree with ShedMiddleFinga;

In my opinion damage calcs are far less important for banning now as you can always have that Innards Out, Sashs are everywhere
or worst case force 50/50 with Chansey.


I have this on one of my teams;

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Steam Eruption
- Destiny Bond

Great Water Bubble switch in + Chansey proof in one.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I agree with ShedMiddleFinga;

In my opinion damage calcs are far less important for banning now as you can always have that Innards Out, Sashs are everywhere
or worst case force 50/50 with Chansey.


I have this on one of my teams;

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Steam Eruption
- Destiny Bond

Great Water Bubble switch in + Chansey proof in one.

Great anti - Water Bubble & Imposter Proof set, but tell you what:

While Gengar can run something like Dazzling or Illusion for better utility, (or at least different kind) the Storm Drain is necessary to stop Kyogre and hit it back.
I have seen many good movesets from others about countering Water Bubble, and it just makes me think that niche sets are necessary to counter Water Bubble and therefore it is broken.

Water Bubble is like =
SOMETHING BETTER THAN Tinted Lens + Adaptibility WITH NO DRAWBACKS

Often times I hear PS users talking about how fully invested Giratina loses more than half health from Kyogre's Water Bubble Water Spout. No others walls have I seen does their job better than Giratina does(maybe except Zygarde - C but Giratina functions better as walling Physical attackers and blocking spins).
Now even Giratina has to be something like RegenVest to take hits from Water Bubbles.

Since I have mentioned a lot about Water Bubbles, I would like to address my opinions about Comaphaze:

What I DO agree:

* It can bring rage strokes induced by every forced switch reducing up to 37.5% of mon's health down.
* If you have Shedinja (with the exception of Magic Guard) you have to pray that it is not dragged out within 16 pp's of Sleep Talk. But know some Deoxys - S has Leppa Berry.
* The whole team is gimmick: Deoxys - S blocks spin with Explosion, or some teams set up hazards with Mold Breaker Gengar.
* Hell - bulky mons like Giratina or Arceus set up Psychic Terrain and disable all priorities.
* By the time Sleep Talk runs out, you will find at least half of your mons dead or severely dented. (Depends on how many layers of Spikes were there)

What I DO NOT agree:

* People say it is over when Psychic Terrain is set and Deoxys - S starts spamming Sleep Talk. But just like how most people mention, everything has its checks. Though some checks have to be extremely gimmicky (such as Scarf + Beat up sets counter Deo - A spam but is useless in almost any other occasions), everything in the metagame is possible to counter. For most Comaphaze teams, you can clearly tell what kind of team it is in the team preview, so just send a spinner and spam Rapid Spin until Deo - S gives up on setting up.
* There are no viable checks to this team? Yes there are. Innards Out Chansey would be glad to take Dragon Tail or Circle Throw and would still end up successfully nuking Deoxys - S when it dies when it has around half of its HP. Also Magic Bounce, which is also worth sacrificing one of your party's slots for, can phaze Sleep Talkers. You can also counter Dragon Tail & Sleep Talk by having Prankster with Substitute, but this is fairly uncommon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have faced many Comaphaze teams, and whether I won or not was dependent on how my opponent has set hazards and Psychic Terrain. Any hazard setter without Explosion ended up failing to set a single hazard in my team, while teams had it gave me a bad time. Also, depending on your team and the opposing Giratina's ability (mostly Magic Bounce or Psychic Surge in other team), you may or may not manage to clean up your hazards before they Baton Pass or U - Turn into Deoxys - S with Comatose.

Also Comaphaze team carries a huge risk, especially with Leppa Berry.

I have used Comaphaze team once against ShedMiddleFinga:

* He predicted my team's type and led with RegenVest Solgaleo (obviously carries Rapid Spin)
* My lead Gengar used Spore, set Stealth Rock and a Single Layer of Spikes, and used Explosion.
* Next, Giratina entered the battle and set Psychic Terrain after taking negligible damage from Solgaleo's Knock Off thanks to its Griseous Orb.
* After blocking spin, I Baton Passed to first Deoxys - S with Comatose. It was carrying Choice Scarf with Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail.
* After a long time, opposing Shedinja, MMY, and Groudon - P died due to having a bad time stepping on Spikes.
* Opposing Gengar killed my Deoxys - S which ran out of Sleep Talk.
* My second Deoxys - S with Leppa Berry and Sleep Talk / Whirlwind / Genesis Supernova killed Gengar and set up Psychic Terrain with Genesis Supernova.
* Another 16 turns of hell were about to happen, but I saw a warning message about Endless Loop about Deoxys - S's Leppa Berry and opposing Solgaleo not losing health during continuous forced - switches. Thanks to Regenerator, Solgaleo managed to keep itself healthy after 16 turns of living hell from first Deoxys - S.
* When ShedMiddleFinga was down to last 2 of its mon, I thought I was sure to win since I had about 6 (if I remember right) Sleep Talks remaining.
* BUT AFTER ANOTHER TIME SOLGALEO WAS DRAGGED OUT, I LOST DUE TO ALL ACTIVE POKEMON BEING IN ENDLESS LOOP AND BEING THE ONE WITH LEPPA BERRY (when Endless Battle Clause activates, apparently the one with Leppa Berry loses). - I forgot about the Endless Battle clause.

So what is the whole point of this? Well, lets go over the minor points first:

* My whole team composition is a gimmick: 2 Deoxys - S, Gengar, Arceus, Giratina, and RegenVest Gyarados. I had no useful way to deal damage other than by Comaphazing.
* Also look at ShedMiddleFinga's team: very offensive. What would happen if I failed to set hazards?

And the most important point is, RegenVest can survive the Comaphaze and manage to activate the Endless Battle clause.

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

My problem with Comaphaze is that the opportunity cost is just ridiculously low. You don't need to build a team around it to do FAR more damage than you should. Something like a banded phermosa with sleeptalk/circle throw/ copycat/shadow force can absolutely destroy teams without ghosts or priority even without hazards, which can also be eliminated through attrition, and even if it has tina If i perdict the switch i can charge shadow force which does far too much
+1 252 Atk Pheromosa Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 260-306 (51.6 - 60.8%). Any ghost not tina is probably dead. and switchins are going to take a hit if they aren't normal, and with the exception of arceus and regi, nothing is. this is shadow force vs 105/100 bulk which is p high in an offensive meta
+1 252 Atk Pheromosa Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 203-239 (57.8 - 68%)
That's free damage right there :/
alot of walls aren't applicable b/c most teams are just running sol for defense and if they have tina that's probably it
+1 252 Atk Pheromosa Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 280-330 (58.5 - 69%)
A little better considering pher has to switch but still not sustainable. Also hazards can really nerf regen's ability to take the hits.

also as I stated earlier, pher is dealing 30-60% against non resists + max defense steel walls (not steelix) with Circle throw which remember, is damage YOU DO NOT GET TO RESPOND TO.

also, if i feel like it i can spam uturn with something slow like regen or shed and use copy cat
+1 252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 97-115 (27.7 - 32.9%)

The only way to really stop it is to have a regen that takes under 30% with cthrow, but I doubt such a thing exists if I add in hazards, an anyway, I can run stuff like mag pull pdon too weed out stuff like that.


That's way too diverse, can chip teams to death far to easily, and has pretty rare checks that I can decimate by running stakeout(which i can switch into after using copycat uturn). And remember, I can attain basically the same atk with adamant scarf ray.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO BASE YOUR TEAM AROUND IT. in fact, u need to base your team around it even less than water bubble, because you don't have to care about chansey if you are scarf ray and you don't have to worry about too much dmg if u r phermosa.

This isn't a post concerned about low ladder. In low ladder water bubble is broken b/c they don't understand what checking is and it deals alot of dmg. In high ladder advantages are obtained through chipping and nuking repeatedly and this ^, is the definition of chipping.

60% doesnt look that high, but you can come back to me after I've dealt something like 1500% (and before some genius says "HA! ur WRONG! u only have 600% on a team, trolololololol" healing exists) to your team through circle throw/uturn/ and rocks because you can't even attack my mon because you were running a serious team without things like scarf deo-a

 

[Eien]

Hey I've never played BH seriously, so obviously take my opinion with a grain of salt (or like a shovel full of salt lol.) Also, I hope this is the right place to discuss this. It's sort of related to suspects, but it has nothing to do with CFZ, so yeah, I think this is right. Sorry if it's the wrong place. Oh yeah, sorry if I'm interrupting any important discussion about other stuff lol this is gonna be so off-topic.

Here's my problem: Like I said I've never played BH before until this suspect. Until today, actually. Until two hours ago (+1 for writing this and doing random stuff after I got reqs lol), actually. On my first try in 1.5 hours I got reqs using an Assist + Primal Groudon team. I want to emphasize just how little I know about Balanced Hackmons and how ridiculously easy it was for me to get reqs in a suspect. It took me a mere 10 minutes to build this team and in 1.5 hours on my first try, I got my reqs. That's kind of scary to be honest. Maybe BH takes a different approach to suspects from what I'm used to, but I feel like suspect voters should be knowledgeable about the metagame and able to make an educated vote. I'm sitting here with the ability to vote and I have no idea what I should vote because I don't know anything about BH, so I'm honestly considering abstaining right now.

The point is there's a strategy that lets a complete noob at the metagame get reqs in less than 2 hours with very minimal effort. What did I even do? I just queued up 4 games at a time, clicked pdon lead, clicked Assist, switched games, and rinse and repeat. Super simple stuff. I feel like just about anyone could load this up and get reqs for free to vote in your suspects. I lost games, sure. This strategy can easily be checked by smart building (can it?), sure. But I think it's just a little too mindlessly good. I mean I think of my 8 losses (I forfeited 2 of my concurrent matches as soon as I hit 2800) I can remember 6 of them being losses to losing a Speed tie with Imposter Chansey lol. (e: clarification, my Chansey lost the Speed tie. Assist beats Imposter by nature)

I don't know enough to say what is banworthy but, nevertheless, something about this team needs to go soon (imo). Why can a completely unexperienced player like me just get free reqs and vote? That's not right in my opinion. I think it goes against the spirit of suspects for people like me to be able to vote when I really don't know anything about the metagame.

If you want my pretty worthless opinion, Primal Groudon is the issue. Assist without a ridiculous base 180 Attack backed by STAB, a Choice Band, and very respectable defenses would not be good. Especially not without the sheer spammability of Thousand Arrows and a specific team moveset to ensure only Thousand Arrows can be pulled. All of that combined makes me believe Assist isn't the problem. But hey, I don't really know much about BH so I could be 100% wrong.

I hope this gets cleared up because otherwise I'm probably just gonna try to get reqs again for the next suspect with this same strategy and hope that a repeat performance really shows how mindlessly skill-less this is.

 

[Rumors]

Wait... Assist was unbanned? Whyyyy?

...well, at least getting reqs on future tests will be easy... >.>

Chansey was transformed "(I made it water type + gave it 160 spD)" :/ and also that's missing the point. The point is that there are other things far far worse.

Makes more sense. Though considering the Water Bubble could use something like Safety Goggles + Spore to make itself resistant to Imposters, I wouldn't say "potentially checked by Imposters" means its not broken.

I agree with ShedMiddleFinga;

In my opinion damage calcs are far less important for banning now as you can always have that Innards Out, Sashs are everywhere
or worst case force 50/50 with Chansey.

We've always had Sash, 50/50, and Explosion / Prankster Destiny Bond (basically the same thing as Innards Out) to deal with sweepers, but that never stopped damage calculations from being useful before. Plus, should we expect every team to use all of those to check sweepers?

Plus, I'm really willing to bet Sash usage will drop significantly if CFZs get the boot, since I don't see Deo-A being a dominant force without them. Similar happened when Protean got kicked, though even then Deo-A was merely... what was it, low C or just D rank?

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-516108779


I felt like i would illustrate how stupid innards out and comaphaze is
Notice pher is sending out like 40%+ per turn without any enemy response :/
Kyurem is innards out that can kill kyogre, any flying type, and zygarde in 1 hit and can deal with all steel walls in 2 + can switcheroo ur wall with a stupid choice item + if it gets ohkoed who cares

 

[RNGIsFatal]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-516108779


I felt like i would illustrate how stupid innards out and comaphaze is
Notice pher is sending out like 40%+ per turn without any enemy response :/
Kyurem is innards out that can kill kyogre, any flying type, and zygarde in 1 hit and can deal with all steel walls in 2 + can switcheroo ur wall with a stupid choice item + if it gets ohkoed who cares

That Circle Throw hurts a lot btw.
Comaphaze can provide much worse torture if, when it comes to your team, one of your spinblockers manage to set up a Psychic Terrain before pulling out Pheromosa.

Oh btw if they had Innards Out Chansey or Priority move user Pheromosa wouldn't have stayed too long.

I agree comaphaze is purely dumb. The battle with my Comaphaze team that I used against you is one of only 3 matches that I played with Comaphaze.

Deoxys - S form is somewhat bearable if you run do something like running dual RegenVest, but if Scarfed Mega Ray spamming Dragon Tail or Mewtwo - X spamming Circle Throw with Scarf or band is just a pain in the @$$. I know Deoxys - S Comaphaze team can use more Sleep Talk with team supports of spin blocking or setting Psychic Terrain but if you consider Mega Ray's 180 base attack and MMX's 190 base attacks, even their switching moves do damage that you can never neglect.

But Innards Out, meh.

You have to DIE to activate that nuclear explosion and such as in your Kyurem - B's case, it will be much more threatening if you had something like Refrigerate / Tough Claws / Adaptibility or whatever, although I don't even use it.

Many people who spectate my battles ask why the heck do I have Lunala in my team when it has lack of power and ambiguous speed tier. Well, I just utilize its 137 HP stat to make sweepers short - lived.

Most Innards Out forms, except some variants like your Kyurem - B and my Lunala, are just blatantly obvious. Fur Coat Chansey is now almost non-existent due to the introduction of Stakeout and Water Bubble. Chansey lead has VERY VERY VERY high chance of dying with a touch (uninvested Registeel's U-turn is guaranteed OHKO), and Guzzlord... I won't even say what ability it carries.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I actually believe that Innards Out keeps the metagame under control because it is another checks to setup sweepers, and we need those more than ever now because setup sweepers are getting tons of new toys that have made old check methods obsolete. Dazzling and Psychic Terrain stops priority, thunder wave was nerfed majorly, Dark types are immune to prankster, Sunsteel and Moongeist hit through abilities. So it's useful to have something to stop them before they completely destroy your team.

Comaphase though, is just bad. I've been on the receiving in of Comaphase way too many times,. One of the most common arguments I hear people saying is that it takes half a team to get coma phase working right because you need a reliable mon to set up entry hazards,and two phasers, so that you make sure that you are actually able to phase both naturally faster opponents and priority users. But that gives you three whole team slots to do with as you please, and it's a lot easier to break through stuff that was weakened badly by the entry hazards and dragon tail/circle throw damage. Another big argument I am seeing is that you just have to prepare for it. Magic Bounce counters whirlwind/roar mons, a Regenerator core can keep you from taking too much damage if there aren't any toxic spikes on the field or if you have a regenerator Steel type; if you're super scared you can run Prankster Ingrain or Suction Cups on something. Some people have even argued that you can keep the hazards off the field, but if you don't even know you're facing a Comaphase team, and all there are are rocks and your team isn't weak to it, you might think you have a chance to put some offensive pressure on. But nope. Just because you can check it doesn't mean you should have to. And it is sometimes impossible to know you're facing a coma phase team until the comatose user comes in, since the same mons that can Coma-phase are totally viable and so team preview won't tell you anything. Well unless your opponent decides to run a bunch of Deoxys-S :d. I think the only reason why more people don't run Comaphase is that it's just boring to win that way.
What's even worse about comaphase is that you don't have to devote your whole team to it. You can build a regular team and then slap on a fast Coma Phase user at the end to break through things so you can easily clean up with someone else. YOu don't even need a mon to spam entry hazards; stealth rock on its own will do plenty of damage to any team that's unprepared for Comaphase. The opportunity cost of running even one Comaphase mon is just so low and the reward is so high, I'm wondering why more people don't do it.

 

[Rumors]

You know what, I inspired myself. If you guys wanna see me do another thing being talked a lot about, just ask. And mind, writing this takes a while, so gimmie a moment if I do it.

So anyway, let's objectively analyze Comaphaze, shall we?

Compahaze itself

This particular strategy is not any one given move or ability. Comaphaze requires Comatose, Sleep Talk, and a shuffling move, such as Dragon Tail or Whirlwind, on a fast Pokemon to function. Some sets require entry hazards in order to do damage, but not all do. Most Comaphaze teams cannot reliably KO the last Pokemon with. A properly executed Comaphaze strategy prevents the opponent from having a turn to act until they are finished, outside of manually switching their Pokemon.

Comatose treats the ability user as if they are always asleep, rendering them immune to all non-volatile status, preventing use of Rest, and allowing the use of Sleep Talk. Comatose is limited by Ability Clause, restricting the strategy to no more than two Pokemon per team under normal conditions. In theory, it is possible to have six Comaphazers, but this requires cooperation on part of the opponent and should not be a serious consideration.

Sleep Talk calls upon a random move in the movepool other than itself, with the exception of Assist, Bide, Bounce, Chatter, Copycat, Dig, Dive, Fly, Focus Punch, Me First, Metronome, Mirror Move, Razor Wind, Shadow Force, Sketch, Skull Bash, Sky Attack, Solar Beam, and Uproar. Sleep Talk is stopped by Taunt. It also only has 16 PP.

Shuffling moves are Whirlwind, Roar, Dragon Tail, and Circle Throw. The first two function similarly, being bounced by Magic Bounce, but otherwise bypassing Substitute and Evasion. Roar is also stopped by Soundproof. Circle Throw and Dragon Tail bypass Magic Bounce, but are stopped by Substitute and type immunities. By using Sleep Talk, the negative priority of these moves is completely bypassed, allowing them to be used at +0 priority.


Compahaze Abuses

Compahaze is almost a play style unto itself. However, the strategy falls under stall by definition, though some offensive and balanced teams can easily benefit from having one or two users as well. Stall might use the strategy to as the main source of their damage, whittling down the opponent before inflicting a different source of residual damage defeat the survivors. Offensive teams can use the strategy to soften up the opposing team before setting up for a sweep or using something fast and hard hitting to directly clean-up.

Priority is a possible concern for Comaphaze strategies as it lacks its own priority. Psychic Terrain, whether by the move itself or Psychic Surge can temporarily provide relief to a Comaphaze team from being shut down with priority. Dark-types also work as well for dealing with Prankster, such as Ash-Greninja.

Fast Pokemon, such as Deoxys-Speed, Ash-Greninja, Mewtwo-Mega-X, or Pheremosa, are often running the strategy, using their high speed stat to outpace the competition and act before the opponent does. These Pokemon can opt to run a Choice Scarf to ensure that they cannot be outsped except by priority and other scarf users.

As Comaphaze only has 16 PP, a team is limited to only 32 uses. Leppa Berry can potentially extend this by another twenty.

Hazards, such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web, are almost always deployed in conjunction with the strategy to whittle the team down farther. Stealth Rock is quick to set-up and is still the premiere hazard and can be enough against most teams to rack up the necessary damage to secure a win. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are less frequently used, but can whittle down a team even quicker. Sticky Web helps ensure the opponent will not be able to outspeed, even with a Choice Scarf, and can also allow for slower, less expected Comaphazers to do their job.

Circle Throw and Dragon Tail allow a Comaphaze team to freely inflict damage if hazards are not set-up. Depending on the users, this can be chip damage, such as from Deoxys-S, or quite painful, such as from Choice Band Mewtwo-X.

Of the moves Sleep Talk does not call, Comaphazers can run Assist to access potentially powerful moves without running the move themselves, depending on how the team is built. This requires a dedicated team, of course. But, as Assist will not call Sleep Talk nor shuffling moves, a Comphazer can be placed onto an Assist team with little risk to the strategy.

Perish Song can be used to cleanly deal with the last surviving Pokemon. If the Comaphazer has four Pokemon left when using the move, they automatically win if the last survivor is not Soundproof.

Comaphazers are able to use other moves that Sleep Talk does not call to fill in extra moveslots. While most of these moves are not great, it gives the Comaphazer extra function once their Sleep Talk PP runs out. Chatter is the notable exception, being the only move on the list banned as of this writing.


Comaphaze Counters

The most complete counter is Magic Bounce Mimikyu, who is immune to all forms of shuffling. However, Mikimkyu offers very little use in Balanced Hackmons outside of this role and can be potentially bypassed with a move such as Shadow Force.

The next best thing is probably Suction Cups, as it stops the shuffling completely. However, the ability has little merit in BH beyond stopping Comaphaze or for anti-Imposter strategies and, in any case, it still takes damage from Dragon Throw.


Comaphaze Checks

Another good answer is Prankster. As Sleep Talk is a non-attacking move, it is stopped by Taunt. However, due to the speed of the strategy's abusers, it is often required to use Prankster. Likewise, Torment severely hampers a Comaphaze strategy and can do so until the user switches out. However, it suffers the same problems as Taunt and, additionally, has lesser merit to be ran outside of very niche strategies. Residual damage, such as Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, and Leech Seed can help wear down a Comaphazer faster. All of these, however, are stopped by Psychic Terrain and Dark-types. Substitute can be used to help stop direct-damage versions, though is useless against Roarwind.

Magic Guard bypasses damage from hazards, the often the biggest source of damage from the strategy, though can still be whittled down by the direct damage shuffling moves.

The use of Magic Bounce and Magic Coat can stop non-damaging Comaphaze variants, but does nothing to Dragon Throw.

Protect moves, particularly Spiky Shield, King's Shield, and Baleful Bunker, can stop and punish Dragon Throw, but does nothing to Roarwind. Dragon Throw also suffers from Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Iron Barbs, though these are niche items and abilities otherwise. Flame Body, Cursed Body, Effect Spore, and similar abilities can also have a chance of interfering with the strategy, but otherwise have little merit.

Soundproof stops Roar and also has the added benefit of handling Boomburst Refigerate, Pixelate, Aerilate, and Galvanize. It does little else, however.

Priority, particularly Fake Out + Extreme Speed, often with -ate or Galvanize, can offensively defeat most Compahazers. However, Psychic Terrain stops them in their tracks and bulky Comaphazers can survive to continue whittling them down.

Up to two Pokemon can weather the storm with Regenerator. However, only certain Pokemon with the right typing can do so against all forms of hazards, such as Solgaleo. Anything weak to Stealth Rock or vulnerable to grounded Poison status risk getting whittled down slowly through Regenerator. Additionally, Dragon Throw can add damage to overcome the Regenerator, even just barely. Some extremely niche Pokemon at best, such as Skarmory and Landorus-Therian, have the typing ignore most hazards without being weak to Stealth Rock. These Pokemon are largely useless to most teams, however.

Pokemon with Poison Heal are immune to Toxic Spikes and can shrug off damage from one layer of Spikes or neutral or resisted Stealth Rock, allowing them to weather light hazards with Roarwind. More hazards or Dragon Throw will overcome their healing.

Typed-based immunities from Ghost and Fairies can defeat Dragon Tail or Circle Throw, but not both, and still lose to Roarwind without abilities.

Contrary can get a speed-boost from Sticky Web teams, allowing it to potentially outspeed the Comaphazer.

Rapid Spin and Defog remove hazards, but do not mitigate Dragon Throw damage. Additionally, they can be hard to pull off outside of Prankster Defog once the strategy is going.

Imposter can win a speed tie against some Comaphazers, but loses to Choice Scarf.

Ingrain stops all phazing, but is hugely risky as it stops all switching outside of moves like Volt Switch. This can potentially allow the opponent to set-up for free on the Ingrain user or simply KO them with Perish Song.


So what makes Comaphaze suspect worthy?

The strategy has no reliable counters outside of Pokemon and abilities that really have little to no business in Balanced Hackmons to begin with. There is a plethora of checks to the ability, but failing to bring multiple, correct checks can potentially mean a match against a Comaphazer is decided at team preview. Two magic bouncers are helpless against two Dragon Throwers. Choice Scarf Taunt Deo-S loses to Sticky Web. And so forth. A team much bring at least two Pokemon with solid answers to Comaphaze to cover most common variations. And even then, checking it may devolve into waiting for the right Pokemon to be phazed in, which is purely RNG.

Most importantly, however, once the strategy is going, and the opponent lacks the correct checks, the battle becomes non-interactive for at least 16 turns and up to 52 turns. An opponent on the receiving end literally cannot do anything other than manually switch, which is potentially a bad idea as that just racks up more hazard damage. As such, they are simply forced to wait, removing any element of competition from the battle until the strategy has ended.

The sheer number of checks means the strategy, however, isn't inherently broken. It cannot win a battle on its own either, a third Pokemon, or at least other moves, are usually required to finish off the last survivor. Which means, while unlikely, a comeback is possible if the victim endures the comaphazing.


So my stance?

This is purely opinion. I've stated it before, but am doing so for the sake of this post. While not necessarily "broken" or "overpowered", I still firmly believe comaphaze is unhealthy and potentially over-centralizing. If you're not prepared for it, you either lose or at least suffer greatly. The whole point of the strategy is to prevent interaction between the opposing teams while the phazer does its magic, making the match one-sided and, IMO, unfun. This is bad for metagame health as it discourages players from actually playing. While there's no official guideline for this, I feel causing players undue frustration for the sake of keeping something that's "not broken" to be a poor decision for the future of the meta. We play for fun, after all. And if a meta isn't fun, it's simply not played.

Comaphaze has two lynchpins: Comatose and Sleep Talk. Banning one crumbles the entire strategy. As such, I feel Sleep Talk should be banned. Comatose has potential merit for other sets and strategies, such as coming up with status-immune set-up sweepers or a cleric who need not worry about sleep before getting a Heal Bell off. These things sound viable and, in the little practice I've given them, feel like it to. Sleep Talk... it only has two uses: unreliable check against sleep users and Resttalk, which, while a neat strategy, is considerably more unreliable and expensive than simply using Recover. Or even using Rest + Natural Cure. As such, Comatose should remain, but Sleep Talk should go as its removal would have the least impact on the rest of the meta.


If I missed anything, lemme know. I think I missed a check or two, but I'm fairly confident they're all fairly unreliable. On the other hand, I'm also confident there are no other counters (which, for the purposes of this analysis, needs to be able to reliably beat all forms of Comaphaze).

 

[Champion Leon]

You know what, I inspired myself. If you guys wanna see me do another thing being talked a lot about, just ask. And mind, writing this takes a while, so gimmie a moment if I do it.

So anyway, let's objectively analyze Comaphaze, shall we?

Compahaze itself

This particular strategy is not any one given move or ability. Comaphaze requires Comatose, Sleep Talk, and a shuffling move, such as Dragon Tail or Whirlwind, on a fast Pokemon to function. Some sets require entry hazards in order to do damage, but not all do. Most Comaphaze teams cannot reliably KO the last Pokemon with. A properly executed Comaphaze strategy prevents the opponent from having a turn to act until they are finished, outside of manually switching their Pokemon.

Comatose treats the ability user as if they are always asleep, rendering them immune to all non-volatile status, preventing use of Rest, and allowing the use of Sleep Talk. Comatose is limited by Ability Clause, restricting the strategy to no more than two Pokemon per team under normal conditions. In theory, it is possible to have six Comaphazers, but this requires cooperation on part of the opponent and should not be a serious consideration.

Sleep Talk calls upon a random move in the movepool other than itself, with the exception of Assist, Bide, Bounce, Chatter, Copycat, Dig, Dive, Fly, Focus Punch, Me First, Metronome, Mirror Move, Razor Wind, Shadow Force, Sketch, Skull Bash, Sky Attack, Solar Beam, and Uproar. Sleep Talk is stopped by Taunt. It also only has 16 PP.

Shuffling moves are Whirlwind, Roar, Dragon Tail, and Circle Throw. The first two function similarly, being bounced by Magic Bounce, but otherwise bypassing Substitute and Evasion. Roar is also stopped by Soundproof. Circle Throw and Dragon Tail bypass Magic Bounce, but are stopped by Substitute and type immunities. By using Sleep Talk, the negative priority of these moves is completely bypassed, allowing them to be used at +0 priority.


Compahaze Abuses

Compahaze is almost a play style unto itself. However, the strategy falls under stall by definition, though some offensive and balanced teams can easily benefit from having one or two users as well. Stall might use the strategy to as the main source of their damage, whittling down the opponent before inflicting a different source of residual damage defeat the survivors. Offensive teams can use the strategy to soften up the opposing team before setting up for a sweep or using something fast and hard hitting to directly clean-up.

Priority is a possible concern for Comaphaze strategies as it lacks its own priority. Psychic Terrain, whether by the move itself or Psychic Surge can temporarily provide relief to a Comaphaze team from being shut down with priority. Dark-types also work as well for dealing with Prankster, such as Ash-Greninja.

Fast Pokemon, such as Deoxys-Speed, Ash-Greninja, Mewtwo-Mega-X, or Pheremosa, are often running the strategy, using their high speed stat to outpace the competition and act before the opponent does. These Pokemon can opt to run a Choice Scarf to ensure that they cannot be outsped except by priority and other scarf users.

As Comaphaze only has 16 PP, a team is limited to only 32 uses. Leppa Berry can potentially extend this by another twenty.

Hazards, such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web, are almost always deployed in conjunction with the strategy to whittle the team down farther. Stealth Rock is quick to set-up and is still the premiere hazard and can be enough against most teams to rack up the necessary damage to secure a win. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are less frequently used, but can whittle down a team even quicker. Sticky Web helps ensure the opponent will not be able to outspeed, even with a Choice Scarf, and can also allow for slower, less expected Comaphazers to do their job.

Circle Throw and Dragon Tail allow a Comaphaze team to freely inflict damage if hazards are not set-up. Depending on the users, this can be chip damage, such as from Deoxys-S, or quite painful, such as from Choice Band Mewtwo-X.

Of the moves Sleep Talk does not call, Comaphazers can run Assist to access potentially powerful moves without running the move themselves, depending on how the team is built. This requires a dedicated team, of course. But, as Assist will not call Sleep Talk nor shuffling moves, a Comphazer can be placed onto an Assist team with little risk to the strategy.

Perish Song can be used to cleanly deal with the last surviving Pokemon. If the Comaphazer has four Pokemon left when using the move, they automatically win if the last survivor is not Soundproof.

Comaphazers are able to use other moves that Sleep Talk does not call to fill in extra moveslots. While most of these moves are not great, it gives the Comaphazer extra function once their Sleep Talk PP runs out. Chatter is the notable exception, being the only move on the list banned as of this writing.


Comaphaze Counters

The most complete counter is Magic Bounce Mimikyu, who is immune to all forms of shuffling. However, Mikimkyu offers very little use in Balanced Hackmons outside of this role and can be potentially bypassed with a move such as Shadow Force.

The next best thing is probably Suction Cups, as it stops the shuffling completely. However, the ability has little merit in BH beyond stopping Comaphaze or for anti-Imposter strategies and, in any case, it still takes damage from Dragon Throw.


Comaphaze Checks

Another good answer is Prankster. As Sleep Talk is a non-attacking move, it is stopped by Taunt. However, due to the speed of the strategy's abusers, it is often required to use Prankster. Likewise, Torment severely hampers a Comaphaze strategy and can do so until the user switches out. However, it suffers the same problems as Taunt and, additionally, has lesser merit to be ran outside of very niche strategies. Residual damage, such as Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, and Leech Seed can help wear down a Comaphazer faster. All of these, however, are stopped by Psychic Terrain and Dark-types. Substitute can be used to help stop direct-damage versions, though is useless against Roarwind.

Magic Guard bypasses damage from hazards, the often the biggest source of damage from the strategy, though can still be whittled down by the direct damage shuffling moves.

The use of Magic Bounce and Magic Coat can stop non-damaging Comaphaze variants, but does nothing to Dragon Throw.

Protect moves, particularly Spiky Shield, King's Shield, and Baleful Bunker, can stop and punish Dragon Throw, but does nothing to Roarwind. Dragon Throw also suffers from Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Iron Barbs, though these are niche items and abilities otherwise. Flame Body, Cursed Body, Effect Spore, and similar abilities can also have a chance of interfering with the strategy, but otherwise have little merit.

Soundproof stops Roar and also has the added benefit of handling Boomburst Refigerate, Pixelate, Aerilate, and Galvanize. It does little else, however.

Priority, particularly Fake Out + Extreme Speed, often with -ate or Galvanize, can offensively defeat most Compahazers. However, Psychic Terrain stops them in their tracks and bulky Comaphazers can survive to continue whittling them down.

Up to two Pokemon can weather the storm with Regenerator. However, only certain Pokemon with the right typing can do so against all forms of hazards, such as Solgaleo. Anything weak to Stealth Rock or vulnerable to grounded Poison status risk getting whittled down slowly through Regenerator. Additionally, Dragon Throw can add damage to overcome the Regenerator, even just barely. Some extremely niche Pokemon at best, such as Skarmory and Landorus-Therian, have the typing ignore most hazards without being weak to Stealth Rock. These Pokemon are largely useless to most teams, however.

Pokemon with Poison Heal are immune to Toxic Spikes and can shrug off damage from one layer of Spikes or neutral or resisted Stealth Rock, allowing them to weather light hazards with Roarwind. More hazards or Dragon Throw will overcome their healing.

Typed-based immunities from Ghost and Fairies can defeat Dragon Tail or Circle Throw, but not both, and still lose to Roarwind without abilities.

Contrary can get a speed-boost from Sticky Web teams, allowing it to potentially outspeed the Comaphazer.

Rapid Spin and Defog remove hazards, but do not mitigate Dragon Throw damage. Additionally, they can be hard to pull off outside of Prankster Defog once the strategy is going.

Imposter can win a speed tie against some Comaphazers, but loses to Choice Scarf.

Ingrain stops all phazing, but is hugely risky as it stops all switching outside of moves like Volt Switch. This can potentially allow the opponent to set-up for free on the Ingrain user or simply KO them with Perish Song.


So what makes Comaphaze suspect worthy?

The strategy has no reliable counters outside of Pokemon and abilities that really have little to no business in Balanced Hackmons to begin with. There is a plethora of checks to the ability, but failing to bring multiple, correct checks can potentially mean a match against a Comaphazer is decided at team preview. Two magic bouncers are helpless against two Dragon Throwers. Choice Scarf Taunt Deo-S loses to Sticky Web. And so forth. A team much bring at least two Pokemon with solid answers to Comaphaze to cover most common variations. And even then, checking it may devolve into waiting for the right Pokemon to be phazed in, which is purely RNG.

Most importantly, however, once the strategy is going, and the opponent lacks the correct checks, the battle becomes non-interactive for at least 16 turns and up to 52 turns. An opponent on the receiving end literally cannot do anything other than manually switch, which is potentially a bad idea as that just racks up more hazard damage. As such, they are simply forced to wait, removing any element of competition from the battle until the strategy has ended.

The sheer number of checks means the strategy, however, isn't inherently broken. It cannot win a battle on its own either, a third Pokemon, or at least other moves, are usually required to finish off the last survivor. Which means, while unlikely, a comeback is possible if the victim endures the comaphazing.


So my stance?

This is purely opinion. I've stated it before, but am doing so for the sake of this post. While not necessarily "broken" or "overpowered", I still firmly believe comaphaze is unhealthy and potentially over-centralizing. If you're not prepared for it, you either lose or at least suffer greatly. The whole point of the strategy is to prevent interaction between the opposing teams while the phazer does its magic, making the match one-sided and, IMO, unfun. This is bad for metagame health as it discourages players from actually playing. While there's no official guideline for this, I feel causing players undue frustration for the sake of keeping something that's "not broken" to be a poor decision for the future of the meta. We play for fun, after all. And if a meta isn't fun, it's simply not played.

Comaphaze has two lynchpins: Comatose and Sleep Talk. Banning one crumbles the entire strategy. As such, I feel Sleep Talk should be banned. Comatose has potential merit for other sets and strategies, such as coming up with status-immune set-up sweepers or a cleric who need not worry about sleep before getting a Heal Bell off. These things sound viable and, in the little practice I've given them, feel like it to. Sleep Talk... it only has two uses: unreliable check against sleep users and Resttalk, which, while a neat strategy, is considerably more unreliable and expensive than simply using Recover. Or even using Rest + Natural Cure. As such, Comatose should remain, but Sleep Talk should go as its removal would have the least impact on the rest of the meta.


If I missed anything, lemme know. I think I missed a check or two, but I'm fairly confident they're all fairly unreliable. On the other hand, I'm also confident there are no other counters (which, for the purposes of this analysis, needs to be able to reliably beat all forms of Comaphaze).

Don't forget Nature Power is not selected by Sleep Talk which is defaulted to Tri Attack in Pokémon Showdown and Psychic under Psychic Terrain.

This can make a Deoxys-A or S, as well as a Mewtwo-Y or X able to hit say Mega-Gengar, etc. for the KO if needed. I included Mewtwo-X because it uses Circle Throw, which Mega-Gengar is immune to. Sticky Web can ensure it hits with a STAB Terrain boosted Psychic first.

It also might be useful to include Flynium Z when carrying Mirror Move and Dragon Tail or Circle Throw.

Say you have a Comatose Mega Mewtwo-X with Sleep Talk, Circle Throw, Mirror Move, Nature Power / Copycat.

It switches in on Primal Groudon after your teammate has fallen to its STAB Ground moves. Being highly defensive, the Groudon doesn't predict you will Z-Mirror Move its own Ground move back at it, and gain +2 attack, KOing it in the process! The next turn they will wonder what ability you have and not realize you have a Comatose Pokémon.

Under Sticky Web and Psychic Surge / Terrain support, Nature Power can also allow Mewtwo-X to KO Pheremosa, etc.

Don't forget Skill Swap and Entrainment can stop the strategy. Having a Mega-Gengar with Entrainment Normalize supported by Sticky Web means the Comatose user has to be both faster than Timid Mega Gengar and carrying a Choice Scarf.

Also Protect/King's Shield + Speed Boost users can counter Comatose users. (If you will include Suction Cups, which is much less useful, Speed Boost doesn't seem out of the question). This is true due to the Baton Pass Clause, and because, unlike Contrary it doesn't require or limit the user to specific moves, and reduces the need for both Choice Scarf and Prankster especially for Taunt or Substitute.

So a Speed Booster whom outspends a foe after a Protect, or negates the Sticky Web speed reduction after a Protect, can outspeed the foe. Remember Protect doesn't just guarantee a Speed Boost, it stalls out a turn of Psychic Terrain.

A fast Speed Booster with a turn to stall is probably the best check besides Magic Bounce/Magic Guard/Regenerator Mimikyu.

Also, unless the Comatose user is a Dark type like Greninja, setting a different terrain down like Electric Surge or Grassy Surge can remove Psychic Terrain and allow for Priority moves, either forcing a switch or letting say Life Orb Grassy Surge Kartana use Bullet Punch.

Also, don't forget Unburden!

Simply using a Terrain activated Seed item (you switch in while a Terrain is up and get a stat boost), either during Psychic Surge on the foes team or your own Terrain like a Grassy Surge and suddenly your speed is doubled!
Using Recycle can also allow you to reuse Unburden.

For example Grassy Surge Kartana with Unburden and the Grassy Seed item. Now it boosts its Grass STAB, improves its Defense stat, heals 6.25% each turn, and Doubles its Speed. This also means instead of carrying Bullet Punch it can just use Power Whip, Sunsteel Strike, etc.

Lastly, ** what about Faster Mold Break users? Can't a Deoxys-Speed use Nuzzle on a Comatose PHazer if Mold Breaker bypasses the status immunity?

Lastly, Sleep Talk + Imprison on a faster or Prankster user is a sure fire counter. Imprison targets the user, not the foe, so it can work on Dark Types like Ash-Greninja, unlike Taunt-which is stopped.
I.e.
Chansey @ Eviolite
Prankster
Imprison
Transform
Sleep Talk / Spore / Taunt
Whirlwind / Block / Taunt Chanseys.

Could you imagine if Chansey used Imprison as a Comatose user switches in, and then used Transform the next turn? Outspeeding and out walling the other team?

Initially: Transform, Whirlwind, Substitute/ Spore, Wish/ King's Shield was a move set used for Imposter Chansey in case the foe was imposter proof (such as using Parting Shot to switch into Chansey as the faster foe used Substitute). Eventually when people began using Imprison, or just because of the Ability clause, Prankster became an ability implemented for setting up before transforming, and allowing Imprison + Transform + Spore + Recover/ Trap move sets to come to fruition.

These are an alternative for the Imposter Chanseys, in case the foe had a Substitute, Whirlwind would be used to bring another foe in, more common last gen.