I don't think we have endless battle clause, though I believe players can be punished for using endless battle strategies (which this is not).
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
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Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
basically what crab said, we DO have a endless battle clause. however, its impossible to implement without ruining perfectly fine strats like the above posted pp stall. so verb decided that he would personally take action for rulebreakers.
His strategy isn't endless, as he's not planning on stopping struggle from killing the opposing Pokemon.
MAMP
MAMP!
Ah, I accidentally read heal bell as heal pulse. Nvm then!
How does this deal with Shedinja? In fact, Shedinja walks all over it. I'd much rather opt for Spore/Leech Seed to force more switches and deal with Shedinja. Because if the opponent figures out your move set, he's just going to keep switching until you wear out your own PP. Talk about role reversal.
MAMP
MAMP!
How are they going to keep switching when you use block?
Switching between Shedinja and another Ghost type, that is. Even without another Ghost Type, many mons in the ladder have VSwitch/UTurn/BPass/PShot anyway.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
in all seriousness. this is a classic example of "by doing this and this, you can stop this" when in practice, 90% of the tier don't ACTUALLY have it. "many mons in the ladder have switching moves anyway" actually, that isn't so true anymore, due to the offensive nature of BH atm, not many pokemon actually do(each team perhaps has 1 if at all). "Switching between Shedinja and another Ghost type[also adding magic bounce here]" yet again, something that many of even high classed players don't have often. how many people even RUN shedinja? i can vouch for less then half(dispite its absolute amazingness) and giratina, gengar, and all other ghosts all happen to be VERY rare in the current metagame. of course id call this a low ladder tactic, considering most higher level players don't run setup, and opt for power (mega ray for example destroys deoxys) however, even among high level players, trapping and eliminating a key pokemon of their team that they didn't expect to lose, can be a key aspect of winning the game vs them.
ALSO surely just because shedinja walks all over this doesn't mean its a terribad set. i mean, most pokemon are weak to shedinja. you just need to have something that counters it (like moldy pursuit gengar). and you cant pp stall that set...0.0 it has infinite PP it would be a stalemate. the REAL reason its bad, is because of knock off, which turns that set into a complete joke. and THAT is why id call it a low level tactic.(some high level players used to run that set last gen for example, but ran it on cress with unaware due to better overall bulk) any wall THAT weak to knock off, shouldn't be used without extreme caution.
also, unaware cress>that deoxys D
Fur Coat does quite well against Knock Off and for that matter, Mega Ray. And you don't need two Ghosts to mess with this set. I'm very sure most BH teams have one Ghost. And Ghosts almost always have Toxic or Curse.
The important reason the tactic is bad is the opportunity cost of choosing one ability over the other.
The important reason the tactic is bad is the opportunity cost of choosing one ability over the other.
While we're on that set topic, I ran a variant of it on a gimmicky but amusing dedicated PP-Stall team. It ran with hazard support and waited until their Defogger or Spinner was dead or depleted of PP before doing its thing.
Overlord (Arceus-Flying) @ Leppa Berry (Originally Cresselia, but too many Gengars at the time)
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Order
- Cosmic Power
- Spite
- Recycle
Basically, it was stay in, lose PP. Switch, take hazard damage. Was it a great set? Not really. But hilarious? Yes! I beat some of the more skilled players at the time, such as burgerking, with the team and this set from sheer unexpectedness.
Overlord (Arceus-Flying) @ Leppa Berry (Originally Cresselia, but too many Gengars at the time)
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Order
- Cosmic Power
- Spite
- Recycle
Basically, it was stay in, lose PP. Switch, take hazard damage. Was it a great set? Not really. But hilarious? Yes! I beat some of the more skilled players at the time, such as burgerking, with the team and this set from sheer unexpectedness.
why is Leppa Berry even still in the metagame lol, you guys lose literally nothing of value by banning it
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
its because leppa stalling(not infinitestall might i add) is considered a viable strategy in bh, or it DID back when we still had unlimited EV's. we would've lost a very viable strategy, and plenty of people were against it/knew it wouldn't solve the problem(we actually have a ton of ways to infinite stall, as hard as they might be to pull off, it doesn't necessarily NEED leppa to pull off). and since people were also finding different ways to infinite stall (running 2 of the same move for example vs imposter) verbatim decided to "generalize infinite stalling" without having to chop off any strat (like unaware leppa stall) that would have been otherwise taken away, and also not having to physically search for every form of infinite stall and somehow ban it. (a popular one without leppa was sitrus stall iirc, where you trick harvest sitrus onto chansey via skill swap/trick and have a sun setter and have a PHer/regen user, and just switch spam on chansey not as viable now due to weather nerf, but still possible to accomplish).
Blood orange and Metronome cannon are pretty valuable assets of fun
Leppa is a good fun item and infinite stall is still around
Endless battle that is very different matter is very hard to pull off in BH, nearly impossible even with the traditional funbro method
but there are ofcourse the situation where theres two imposters left on both players (this actually happens sometimes) that can generate endless battle when both are stubborn.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
the problem is pain split can easily substitute for heal pulse lol.
Or even Water Absorb + Skill Swap + Scald rofl.
As a matter of fact, there's a semi-reliable way to infinistall that involves the use of Magnet Pull Dialga to trap imposters.
As a matter of fact, there's a semi-reliable way to infinistall that involves the use of Magnet Pull Dialga to trap imposters.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Shh don't tell them or they'll start doing it ;-;
but doesnt water absord only heal 25%? Cause that eventually foils due of recycle turns.
Why not Dry Skin + Skill Swap + Scald + Rain Dance to infinite stall.
Anyway this shouldn't be a too useful discussion. Do any of you know any creative imposterproof sweepers? Some time ago Iron Judgment Diancie Mega was mentioned as a Pokemon that can beat Shedinja, Imposters and Ates. (4x SE Move, Mold Breaker, Kings Shield sometimes) You can also run Ground Judgment, but you're not as Imposter-proof. It seemed cool, but I don't know whether it's good or if anyone knows something else that seems cool.
Anyway this shouldn't be a too useful discussion. Do any of you know any creative imposterproof sweepers? Some time ago Iron Judgment Diancie Mega was mentioned as a Pokemon that can beat Shedinja, Imposters and Ates. (4x SE Move, Mold Breaker, Kings Shield sometimes) You can also run Ground Judgment, but you're not as Imposter-proof. It seemed cool, but I don't know whether it's good or if anyone knows something else that seems cool.
If i remember this happened when i asked on the OM room if was possible to create a sweeper anti-Ate/Imposter/Sheddy (because those 3 are the most common and dominant forces on the metagame when it comes to stop sweepers). Moldy Hoopa-Unbound is anti-Imposter and Anti-Sheddy, but isn't anti-Ate, so i suggested look for some pokémon that is the most similar as possible to this Hoopa and at the same time it should have high defense and/or type resistent to -ates in order to acomplish all 3 requisites (anti-Ate/Imposter/Sheddy).
I suggested some steel-type at first, but i was not sure which steel pokemon until someone suggested Mega-Metagross (i guess it was Uselesscarab), then again the same people made this Mega-Diance set.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
Pixidon is the new pixitran:
Groudon-Primal @ Earth Plate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Judgment
- Boomburst
- Quiver Dance
- Recovery move
Immune to imposter as their judgment is Fairy type, which you resist, and then you hit them back with STAB ground judgment.
Groudon-Primal @ Earth Plate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Judgment
- Boomburst
- Quiver Dance
- Recovery move
Immune to imposter as their judgment is Fairy type, which you resist, and then you hit them back with STAB ground judgment.
Give mega Kanga water absorb. skill swap and block. Mega-Evolution, win.