Ok, so I'm getting into Balanced Hackmons, it's a great tier! And one thing I've found is that Hoopa is a fucking monster. I'm using a set of Tail Glow / Moonblast / Psystrike / Shadow Ball and with Speed Boost. I know a lot of things can do this, but holy crap it is strong, with 151 SpA (on pS!), it can certainly dent things. A lto of people say: what?? what's a hoopa??? Until it dents them!
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
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In my opinion hoopa is pretty... bad. It's really weak to knock off and priority, and why use it over mega gengar? Also that set is total imposter/shed bait.
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Hoopa is not bad, in all honesty. What priority besides Sucker Punch are super common that Hoopa isn't resistant / immune to. Mega Gengar lacks STAB Psystrike, which tears through full on Physically Defensive Pokemon, for instance:
+2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 328-386 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 863-1018 (122.5 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The two are a little bit different, as Hoopa has a usable Attack stat, if you want to use Shell Smash and Mega Gengar is weaker after one boost if you're running a plate:
+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gengar: 853-1006 (263.2 - 310.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gengar: 782-924 (241.3 - 285.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is Shell Smash Judgement Mega Gengar versus Tail Glow Life Orb Hoopa. And so is Mega Gengar, too Knock Off. The Priority moves it is weak to include Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, and that's all. It is resistant / immune to Extreme Speed, Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave, and it is neutral to everything else. Right off the top of my head I thought of the uncommon Ice Shard Kyurem-B:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hoopa: 96-114 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
And lel:
252+ SpA Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hoopa: 187-222 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's very Physically weak, but it takes on hits from the Special side. I'll give it to you that it is weak to Shedinja and Chansey, but those can be handled other ways.
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Refrige Kyu-B and Pixel Xern both say hello.
Anyway, now that I have a moment to give my viewpoint.
If we add an ability clause, a lot of teams are going to be hurt, both stall and offense. Stall can't run multiple bouncers and the like, offense can't run multiple Contraries and Adapts, and neither can run multiple PHers. This is fine. I mean, playstyles get hurt, but they also get buffed. For example, stall no longer gets shut down by Regenerator-heavy teams that just shrug off residual damage for free. Stall also no longer has to worry about making a mistake against a Contrary-heavy team and getting swept. Meanwhile, Offense isn't getting Prankstered to hell while trying to find some momentum or trying to figure out how to even dent a group of well synergized Poison Healers.
Hyper offense and hyper stall probably get hurt the most by this. Balanced probably benefits the most.
Also, this situation is really comparable to species clause in standard. For example, would you say it's healthy for OU to be able to run a team of six Gale Wings Talonflames? No, probably not. What about six PH Gliscors? Unless you're packing ice moves, heck no. What about six Serene Grace Skymins in Ubers? I can see you grabbing your pitchforks already.
So why is it considered healthy to be able run that, and worse, in BH?
Also mind, I'm in favor of an ability clause despite the fact that I won't get away unscathed by it. I think I have just one team that wouldn't need updating. The rest have dual PHers, dual Regens, dual Flashfires, dual Adapt, triple MG, and more.
And finally, to bring back the replay I posted, it avoids silliness like I did there. Kumi had a great counter to PH users, specifically that MB Skarm with Simple Beam. But that one Pokemon wasn't able to handle a whole team of PH users on its own. Likewise, it'll typically be impossible for a single counter to stop a whole team abusing a single ability that's built and played by someone competent.
Single-ability clause, double-ability clause, whatever. All I know is that current status quo is bad.
Here's something that's completely unrelated to all the discussion about the clause stuff that I think might work pretty well:
Gardevoir (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Illusion (with shedinja as the last pokemon)
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Def / 252 SDef / 252 SAtk / 252 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Secret Sword
- Infestation
Now, you may be wondering: Why would you run a mega stone when you could just use the regular mega evolution anyways? Well, first of all, when people see shedinja, the first thought is, "KILL IT WITH POISON" or "KILL IT WITH INFESTATION". This basically gives you a free turn to set up, as they will probably switch first turn. The great part about this set is that Xernaes and Kyurem-B won't come in and priority kill you, since they will see sturdy shedinja. Then, you can proceed to do whatever you want and mega-evolve whenever you want to. (secret sword is there to take care of chansey in case he/she finds out you have infestation).
Or, if you're even luckier, some people lead with the Stealth rock + dragon tail lead. This gives you 3 free turns to set up, as they will think you're a noob who uses wonder guard shedinja, meaning that xernaes and kyurem-b will still be worthless (but watch out for rayquaza). The chansey that's on nearly every legit team will immediately come in to get the wonder guard and try to kill you... only to find that it can't transform. You can secret sword to kill it or mega evolve and boomburst, attempting to kill something on the switch.
(Remember that this will not work on people who are new, since they will try to attack the shedinja anyways. Also, this is theoretical, so don't expect it to work all the time)
Gardevoir (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Illusion (with shedinja as the last pokemon)
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Def / 252 SDef / 252 SAtk / 252 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Secret Sword
- Infestation
Now, you may be wondering: Why would you run a mega stone when you could just use the regular mega evolution anyways? Well, first of all, when people see shedinja, the first thought is, "KILL IT WITH POISON" or "KILL IT WITH INFESTATION". This basically gives you a free turn to set up, as they will probably switch first turn. The great part about this set is that Xernaes and Kyurem-B won't come in and priority kill you, since they will see sturdy shedinja. Then, you can proceed to do whatever you want and mega-evolve whenever you want to. (secret sword is there to take care of chansey in case he/she finds out you have infestation).
Or, if you're even luckier, some people lead with the Stealth rock + dragon tail lead. This gives you 3 free turns to set up, as they will think you're a noob who uses wonder guard shedinja, meaning that xernaes and kyurem-b will still be worthless (but watch out for rayquaza). The chansey that's on nearly every legit team will immediately come in to get the wonder guard and try to kill you... only to find that it can't transform. You can secret sword to kill it or mega evolve and boomburst, attempting to kill something on the switch.
(Remember that this will not work on people who are new, since they will try to attack the shedinja anyways. Also, this is theoretical, so don't expect it to work all the time)
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I like the idea, but it does seem a bit too good to be true. I might try this on the ladder when I have the time.
This seems like an okay strategy. I really like the surprise of it, and its ability to feign being Shedinja pretty well. However, it'll only get to attempt to set up once, because of mega evolutions being glitchy with illusion. In addition, Wonder Guard Shedinja isn't actually allowed, so that line of thought isn't actually relevant.
Yeah, It probably won't work as well as I said. Still it's worth a shot to test out. I got the idea when I used imposter blissey on my mono-shedinja team.
Just talking about the Hoopa issue, Let's face it it's not a great mon in terms of survivability with a whopping 59 defense that can't even take on a single vcreate from X2 or Blaziken, and a quad weakness to the most common physical move in the entire tier of BH (knock off no prizes for guessing) BUT if you take the care to protect it from such threats it is a pretty hard hitting and solid mon. I personally have been waiting for a psyshic/ghost in terms of offensive prowess for a long time because of psystrike stab and judgment immunity, therefore I came up with this set:
Hoopa @ Spooky Plate
252HP/0-ATK/252 SpA/ 252 SpD/ 252 Spe
Ivs: 0 for attack
Psystrike
Tail Glow
Copycat
Judgment
This gets around his abysmal speed (Seriously, blastoise beats it in a race) by using the advantage of a slow judgment to hit twice after a +3. It is chansey proof since x4 Judgment ohkos at +3 and if you already have a judgment going, you can copycat it before the opponent psystrikes you. You can revenge gengar that has just killed one of your mons with a copycat of judgment which they are very likely not gonna expect. Oh and ohkos to both mewtwos unboosted from judgment is cool too. Psystrike is a great hitting move in virtually any situation. Copycat is a similarly versatile move that helps in copying a Heal Order, or a Draco from a dragon mon and much more.
Having said that... Pursuit.
lol.
Hoopa @ Spooky Plate
252HP/0-ATK/252 SpA/ 252 SpD/ 252 Spe
Ivs: 0 for attack
Psystrike
Tail Glow
Copycat
Judgment
This gets around his abysmal speed (Seriously, blastoise beats it in a race) by using the advantage of a slow judgment to hit twice after a +3. It is chansey proof since x4 Judgment ohkos at +3 and if you already have a judgment going, you can copycat it before the opponent psystrikes you. You can revenge gengar that has just killed one of your mons with a copycat of judgment which they are very likely not gonna expect. Oh and ohkos to both mewtwos unboosted from judgment is cool too. Psystrike is a great hitting move in virtually any situation. Copycat is a similarly versatile move that helps in copying a Heal Order, or a Draco from a dragon mon and much more.
Having said that... Pursuit.
lol.
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Also, idk, dark types and priority. I really don't see the appeal over mega gar or even chandelure
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Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
It doesn't really have much going for it besides the psychic stab... Which makes it completely walled by dark types.
Having thought about it some more, I think "dual ability clause" would be better. Aka allow two instances of whatever ability on the team rather than just one. This would solve the problem of preventing teams from abusing a single ability, not hurt very many competitive teams, and it would still allow for stuff like Regenerator cores that are possible in virtually every other meta, standard or otherwise. I would ideally couple this with a standard species clause to prevent stuff like double Refrige Kyu-Bs for the same reasons double Gale Wings Talonflames and whathaveyou are bad for a meta, but that's not entirely necessary. (Aka you could run Refrige Kyu-B and Refrige Manetric, but not Kyu-B and Kyu-B or Manetric and Manetric).
On the downside, it would be a little harder to explain to newer players than just a plain ability clause and it would hurt a few interesting gimmick teams. Though generally, 3+ of the same ability on any team is usually either abusing an ability or is a silly gimmick team, so it's not a big deal.
So my preferences in terms of the available options, in order for how much I'd support them...
1) Dual ability clause + species clause
2) Dual ability clause + no species clause
3) Plain ability clause with or without species clause
10) Do nothing
On the downside, it would be a little harder to explain to newer players than just a plain ability clause and it would hurt a few interesting gimmick teams. Though generally, 3+ of the same ability on any team is usually either abusing an ability or is a silly gimmick team, so it's not a big deal.
So my preferences in terms of the available options, in order for how much I'd support them...
1) Dual ability clause + species clause
2) Dual ability clause + no species clause
3) Plain ability clause with or without species clause
10) Do nothing
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Okay there are a lot of personal attacks and terrible arguments being thrown around, so I've deleted every post about the proposed Ability Clause except Keep it Playful's initial proposal. If you would like your post undeleted, contact me (preferably via VM, I have a bunch of private messages to sort through right now 9.9). If you would like to post again, keep the following things in mind:
- How your team fares with or without Ability Clause is entirely irrelevant - this is a discussion about what is good for the metagame, not what's good for you
- If you want to discuss Ability Clause, please make a decent post on it - "that's ridiculous" is hardly an argument
- Stop getting so god damn mad at each other
Tagging verbatim in this post as he runs this town
EDIT @ 2:40 PM EST: Rumors's posts undeleted by request
- How your team fares with or without Ability Clause is entirely irrelevant - this is a discussion about what is good for the metagame, not what's good for you
- If you want to discuss Ability Clause, please make a decent post on it - "that's ridiculous" is hardly an argument
- Stop getting so god damn mad at each other
Tagging verbatim in this post as he runs this town
EDIT @ 2:40 PM EST: Rumors's posts undeleted by request
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One thing I really do like about said clause is that it brings a lot of diversity to the meta rather then seeing phers on every team usually more then one and cube after cube is really annoying so I completely favor Keep it Playful 's proposal.
I feel that a clause for 3 of the same abilities will not compromise balance and will still prevent the use of inconsistent methods of winning (such as contrary spam, which often depends on speed ties against Imposter) and quadruple PH, it's often stupidly difficult to stop and ruins creativity.
Dual PH cores are necessary for stall and offense alike, it is one of the best methods of defeating some vicious sweepers that abuse sleep.
All in all, in my opinion, I think that the meta will not be so balanced without Poison Heal cores around. Insomnia is pretty bad, Magic Guard isn't so great right now, all we have is Poison Heal, Magic Bounce and with some level of prediction, prankster to wall sweepers + sleep reliably.
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I... disagree with the idea of instituting a clause specifically for BH that has no equivalent in any mainstream tier that limits teambuilding so much. There are so many legitimate strategies on both sides of the board that involve multiple pokemon using the same ability that it's not even funny, and the problem of terrible players using six of the same ability is only going to make them use six different, equally terrible sets. This may or may not be as counterable, but in my opinion the completely random option is the worse, especially when you start finding some of the really odd sets that the new players can cook up.
Balanced Hackmons is mostly about the freedom to run whatever you want with a few very specific exceptions. Removing this freedom feels... wrong, somehow.
That's just me though.
Balanced Hackmons is mostly about the freedom to run whatever you want with a few very specific exceptions. Removing this freedom feels... wrong, somehow.
That's just me though.
No equivalent? What about species clause? That's pretty much a soft ability clause in other tiers due to a combination of limited distribution of many abilities and many users not being viable (NFE or just plain suck). For example, double Drizzle is only possible in Ubers, can't run more than two Sandtreams unless you start digging into NFEs, there's only three bouncers without dipping into NFEs, two without dipping into megalutions, and so forth.
I feel that the precedent is there, albeit in a bit of a different form. And I don't think a single or dual ability-clause will limit creativity. If anything, allowing people to spam up to six identical cookie cutter sets is more limiting because they are not required to come up with alternatives. As weird as it sounds, this is one of those situations that limiting options to a degree would increase the number of "interesting decisions" to be made.
This is an imposter-proof contrary I ran for a bit, though I've heard that Genesect isn't actually any good in BH... could probably stand to fit Infestation somewhere to take out Sturdinjas.
Disco Buge (Genesect) @ Burn Drive
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Techno Blast
- Leaf Storm
- Draco Meteor
- Psycho Boost
I'm also working on a Mawile set based off the Gardevoir above, but don't have time tonight to test the latest tweaks, so I'll report back on that tomorrow.
I once ran a similiar set with Rayguaza;
V-Create
LeafStorm
*something*
Technoblast with chill drive.
Technoblast is one hell of a good judgement replacer for anti imposter shenigans. Seriously underrated.
V-Create
LeafStorm
*something*
Technoblast with chill drive.
Technoblast is one hell of a good judgement replacer for anti imposter shenigans. Seriously underrated.
Techno Blast is actually somewhat worse than Judgment. Both hit equally hard with their respective items since Plates give a 20% boost, but without an item Techno Blast will hit for 120 BP compared to Judgment's 100. This becomes meaningful when it's an Imposter's strongest move for hitting you back like in the Rayquaza set above, and lets them revenge you slightly more easily. Of course if you lose your item with Judgment you have to deal with the lowered base power, but the set is practically worthless without its item anyway. Judgment also has 16 PP while Techno Blast has only 8. So whenever you consider the chances any opponent using an Icicle/Zap/Splash/Flame Plate Imposter irrelevant (which should be basically always for laddering at least, considering February's moveset statistics show them being less common on Blissey than Quick Claw or nothing), Judgment is the better choice.
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I really like that set I tried no guard genesect but then I realize I was mowed over by chansey and impostors in general. But yeah techno blast seems cool.
This notion for ability clause is legit one of the most interesting suggestions ive ever heard for this tier, i'll have to sleep on it or something to get a good opinion on it, but initial reaction is DO IT OH PLEASE ALMIGHTY DOG DO IT
Main reason is simply diversifying the meta, I don't think it will have as big an impact as some people are suggesting, but it will mostly get rid of those full yolo 6 refrig kyube teams that really do nothing except
a) piss new players off limiting growth of the tier
and
b) getting a lucky crit vs a decent player and winning... which is arguably fair its mostly point a but cmon...
Main reason is simply diversifying the meta, I don't think it will have as big an impact as some people are suggesting, but it will mostly get rid of those full yolo 6 refrig kyube teams that really do nothing except
a) piss new players off limiting growth of the tier
and
b) getting a lucky crit vs a decent player and winning... which is arguably fair its mostly point a but cmon...
This is the true problem...imposters can be stoped..but Giritina is a pain almost no matter what set it runs
Just had a guy fail to Light of Ruin me out of a game so I guess it's not the ultimate weapon after all.
Probably means Diamond Storm is coded too.
EDIT: Volcanion, Hoopa, Diancie, and the Lati@s-M formes are now searchable through the teambuilder. Floette-AZ is not searchable or useable (unless it just doesn't have a picture).
Diamond Storm and Light of Ruin are both coded. Hyperspace Hole and Steam Eruption are not.
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