Venomoth @ Focus Sash/Black Sludge, maybe?
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder/Substitute
- *insert attack here*
Remember him? Just something to think about.
I think this replay does great job of showcasing why scoli is so much better then ninjask. Here we have scolipede setting up multiple iron defenses in front of a mega gyarados, a very powerful OU threat. The massive defense boost combined with the speed boost was all sylv needed to not give a single eff about the entire rest of the team. Note how only 2 mons were used this entire battle. This supports my opinion that capping the number of BP users would do little to weaken the stupid amount of support iron defense scoli offers to the team, as sylveon didn't even need BP to sweep the enemy team. Heck, it didn't even really need to be sylveon, any decently bulky mon with subs would've sufficed.
This replay is borderline identical to the first, except replace megados with bisharp, another very powerful OU threat. Once again, only 2 mons were used, and once again, it really didn't even need to be sylveon on the receiving end, any decently bulky mon would've worked fine. Very little to say that has not already been said.
This is a much more interesting replay, as it showcases the power of Jukain's teammates other then scoli + sylveon. However, once again, scoli proves that it is able to find multiple setup opportunities against mega heracross and azumaril. Very few pokemon scream "THIS IS NOT SETUP BAIT!!!!" quite like these two, and the second defense pass to espeon was what allowed jukain to win the game by preventing ttar or azumaril from having any meaningful impact.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114741246
I think this shows that even quick pass scoli is pretty stupid. Once again we have scoli setting up in the face of a mega-dos, this time with taunt, not giving a single eff about anything it did. The defense boosts allowed lando-I to swap in without any difficulty what-so-ever, allowing it to easily threaten the megados out. It then ohko's aeigislash for absolutely free, with zero cost to the team. This lead allowed Jukain to make multiple momentum preserving sacrifices, ending with scoli being able to come in again and setup speed for espeon to sweep.
This is another good example of just how varied the number of threats scoli can setup in the face of. Here we have scoli setting up in the face of trickscarf rotom, one of the game's top anti-leads and SD megazor, one of the game's most powerful priority users. Once he had his defense buffs, he passed to vaporeon, who was able to pull things off like take multiple volt-turns from rotom and scizor (one of which was a crit) while still having enough left to take a garchomp outrage (it only took 12%). At this point, he got a free swap to sylv, and then another free swap to espeon, and it was GG. This would not have been possible had they not gotten that trivial +6 defense, making them unapproachable from the physical side.
Hey look, a replay where scolipede wasn't absolutely paramount to victory. Scoli doesn't do anything here that ninjask could not have done. It appears the threat of talonflame coming in at anytime and killing scoli before he could pass his boosts was more then enough to discourage Jukain from bringing him back in. It's pretty clear that in this case, vaporeon's ability to setup multiple iron defenses in front of his team was what allowed Jukain to have victory here, as opposed to any contribution scoli might've had. Also of note that the opposing team lacked any visible forms of taunt, setup, or phasing, meaning that this was likely a very bad matchup for him. Not entirely sure what to make of this, other then BP is powerful even without iron defense scoli.
Here's another replay showing that BP does not need iron defense scoli to be strong. Ninjask could have quite literally done the exact same thing (providing EP and seed flare were shaymin's only 2 attack moves). Once again I note the lack of taunt or phase attempts, as well as the lack of any attempt to counter setup. That being said, it is once again difficult to attribute victory to any one teammate.
Here we a replay where speed boost was paramount to Jukain's success, but where what scoli did was indistinguishable from what a standard ninjask would have done (obviously the far more badass CB ninjask would've u-turned for a free kill, but that's for another day). To the surprise of absolutely no one, Iron Defense scoli is as good or better then any BP set ninjask could run in almost every conceivable scenario.
Right, so argue for or against the ban of Scolipede, instead of "But collateral damageLOL!" Does it actually take a OU Council member himself to tell you Smogon doesn't care about 'preserving a Pokemon's other (unused) sets'? Does it take an official Smogon member to tell you they operate and prefer simple, efficient bans over complex engineered clauses?Start by arguing points instead of assessing the moral integrity of everyone's statements.
No one said Scolipede is broken. So remove that preconceived notion from your mind.I don't see how a singular ban of Scolipede (or just banning Scolipede in general) helps tackle the issue at hand. In the end it fulfils the same role that Ninjask has in past Baton Pass teams with greater reliability and bulk, a bit better offensive presence and the option of passing Defence boosts along with Speed. I don't ever recall a time where Ninjask was being considered as ban worthy, and although Scolipede is by no doubt a greatly better version of Ninjask, I do not believe it is simply broken in itself.
What does Scolipede in the end do for a BP team? Provides relatively quick and easy Defence and Speed boosts. Is Scolipede stoppable? Absolutely. In the end Taunt, Phazing, Haze, Encore, Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir, Infiltrator Crobat and Chandelure can all reliably stop Scolipede from doing its job, and are all OU viable. The main problem is what it BPs to next
There are simple ways of dealing with setup which have been around for quite a while now. The main concern should be when it is next to impossible to stop, and the things which counter BP counters. I feel the attention should be swinging more towards what stops us from preventing these BP chains to begin with: Magic Bounce Espeon and/or Ingrain Smeargle. With these 2 gone BP teams become 1000 times easier for stall to stop BP.
Yeah Scolipede is a pretty bad offender and definitely lifts the strategy, but it is not what makes it broken, because Scolipede in itself is NOT broken!
Tho I do agree, doing almost anything to Scol really makes BP alot less viable.Right, so argue for or against the ban of Scolipede, instead of "But collateral damageLOL!" Does it actually take a OU Council member himself to tell you Smogon doesn't care about 'preserving a Pokemon's other (unused) sets'? Does it take an official Smogon member to tell you they operate and prefer simple, efficient bans over complex engineered clauses?
No one said Scolipede is broken. So remove that preconceived notion from your mind.
You just stated exactly what separates Scolipede from Ninjask. Scolipede does everything Ninjask can do with more versatility, bulk, and reliability, and able to boost Def or Atk simultaneously with Speed. And unlike Ninjask, Scolipede can reliably restart the chain and set up multiple times over the course of the match. Mentioning Ninjask is useless, and comparing it to Scolipede is meaningless.
What does Scolipede in the end do for a BP team, you ask? It doesn't just provide "relatively quick and easy Def and Spe boosts". It provides auto-speed initiative at x3 for the entire chain, with a trivial x2 Def, that can't be stopped or interrupted. Nothing you can do can stop it from acquiring at least x2 or x3 Spe.
Scolipede is the root of the problem, not Ingrain, Magic Bounce or the numbers of Baton Passers. Baton Pass is dominating the ladder due to Scolipede, not 6 Passers. 6 Pass team has never been broken, uncompetitive or overcentralizing up until Scolipede. It's only until a Pokemon with overwhelming support, the ability to boost Speed, Def and/or Atk simultaneously, and reliably boost many times over the course of the match, that has made Baton Pass an overcentralizing top-ladder presence.
Because I refuted your arguments, and find them weak and misinformed, you take it as an "ad hominem." To the man, I never insulted or flamed you personally; I just destroyed your arguments.I think the reason why the BP vs stall matchup got so much discussion on this topic is that BP has been built around beating stall, creating a very lopsided matchup. However, I think that the argument can be made that BP is also a bit too strong against offensive teams, due to being capable of setting up in the face of many prominent offensive threats, which is why I am currently advocating for the ban of iron defense scoli in addition to the ban of ingrain / aqua ring smeargle.
Also, I've heard the following argument being passed around and I would like to address it. "Banning [mon X] would not solve the problem of BP, it would just increase the number of counters". I argue that increasing the number of viable counters should be the goal of any ban we make. BP, like any setup reliant team comp, can easily snowball into victory. Unless we want to ban setup sweepers, I see nothing wrong with a pokemon capable of causing a great deal of damage to the enemy team or even sweeping them outright when given a chance to setup (otherwise m-pinsir and bisharp would've been banned ages ago). The difference between these mons and BP in it's current form is that m-pinsir and bisharp have viable counters pre setup and viable checks post setup. Atm, BP simply does not.
Jukain : I haven't gotten a chance to watch your replays yet, but once I get a chance I will analyze them and post my opinions on them, I think they will provide a helpful case-study of how well BP works without smeargle against what is hopefully a decent variety of teams. I will be looking at two things in particular.
1. How does smeargle-less BP fair against stall?
2. How much support is scoli giving you against more offensive teams? Is it the deciding factor the matchup?
I did refute it: read my arguments. And I didn't act like anything; I just presented my arguments for the very real possibility of Scolipede's ban, and refuted other people's absurd arguments for the complex ban of Ingrain, Aqua Ring, etc.Look Over Zealous I've been doing this at least longer than you have, stop acting like you have some superior knowledge of banning philosophy. An OU council member has already stated his preference for a specific complex ban, even! You're entirely off base with your argument. We ban what is broken. Scolipede is not the broken factor, it is the entire chain. This has been repeated over and over, and you still have yet to refute this adequately.
I don't think it's a good idea. Scol Is viable outside of BP, and (IIRC all sets run protect). And I think it drop to RU or UU.Here's one more suggestion:
Ban Substitute/Protect + Speed Boost on a set. That lets priority (Talonflame, Mega Pinsir) reliably check Scolipede, and keeps it from getting a free +1 speed pass on Turn 2 in most other situations. It also forces the BP player to make a decision Turn 1 instead of auto Protect/Sub.
Thoughts?
If you have no knowledge (or next to no knowledge) of the game at high level of play (be it the top of the ladder of official tournaments) then you're not supposed to post in this thread. I don't want to see one-liners or uninformed posts;
Their argument is that it gives enough passive regen to beat Seismic Toss spam (which is generally considered the best option for stall to beat Baton Pass). I don't think it's infraction worthy, but I also don't think Aqua Ring is relevant at all... No one will ever use Smeagle specifically for Aqua Ring or run Aqua Ring on Vaporeon (who has much better options in Scald, Roar, 101 Subs, and Acid Armor).Before I start infracting someone, can someone inform me why Aqua Ring is so good on BP? Ingrain I get, it stops switching, but if there are actually no real benefits to Aqua Ring, then I will start handing out infractions. Certain users are hyping this up, and not a single player I have talked to, has been able to tell me why this move is good. If there is no high level competitive merit to Aqua Ring, then these users should not be posting within this thread.
Re quoting:
Agreed. But Smogon is too lazy to do that.Hiphiphooray I do not think it is necessary to ban scolipede in it's entirety if it is deemed OP versus offense. I think simply banning iron defense scoli is sufficient.
Ninjask doesn't get Iron Defense, which is pretty much the selling point of Pede (over Jask).Ok, what i'm hearing (mainly from one person) is that scolipede is the root of all the problems that baton pass has.
So, this implies that banning scolipede makes baton pass fair, and reasonably easy to handle. Otherwise, banning scolipede, wouldn't have been mentioned, i'm guessing.
So let's get this straight:
Scolipede is better than Ninjask. But just because ninjask is worse, it doesn't mean it can't do its job on a baton pass team at all.
This is a replay of a simple match I had with TFL:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115132820
There are several things things of note to pay attention to:
I'm carrying a banded talonflame, very strong against BP. More importantly, he made the call that mr. mime wasn't too helpful and sacked it to talonflame to bring in vaporeon to set up the crucial defense boost.
I would've won had I hit stone edge with mega tar.
There was NOTHING scolipede could've done better than ninjask did in that match.
Both of us are also fairly competent players, regardless of me using a rather outdated and old team.
If we ban Scolipede, then we will just go right back to ninjask. It's a little shitter, yes, but it still gets the job done, and that's what counts.
The major point I was trying to prove with the replay is that scolipede or ninjask wouldn't have changed the outcome in this particular match, which is why I believe banning scolipede isn't the answer here.
Ninjask also has 44 less defense and 19 less special defense.Ninjask doesn't get Iron Defense, which is pretty much the selling point of Pede (over Jask).
Yes, we know that Scolipede is (overall) better than Ninjask. The question is: "Is Ninjask good enough?"Ninjask also has 44 less defense and 19 less special defense.