Battle Maison Discussion & Records

Lumari

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Thanks! I'm mainly interested in Singles; it seems like the fastest way to rack up wins and BP. I'm not exclusively interested in the mons I mentioned; they just came to mind because I have them mostly ready to go. Do you think the team you suggested in the edit sounds better in theory than something like M-Khan + Gliscor + Suicune?
From what I can tell, M-Khan + Gliscor + Suicune is pretty much the optimal M-Khan team, the team suggested in the edit is definitely a lot worse haha--it's just something that's been built trying to account for M-Khan's weaknesses rather than blindly throwing strongmons on the same team (e.g. something like Greninja, while very good in its own right, offers pretty much nothing as a backup for M-Khan because it's just as vulnerable to Fighting-types and status) and can work decently, but it doesn't seem resilient / reliable enough for a really deep run. (I'm really bad at gauging a team's potential in terms of streak length, but getting the trophy shouldn't pose too much of a problem, Lansat Berry seems possible, but Starf Berry seems.. optimistic.)

Fwiw re. the "fastest way to rack up BP" thing, I've also found doubles to play faster than singles; a decent Fake Out + spread move team smashes its way through most / nearly all battles in 3-5 turns while singles battles can get pretty long if you have to (switch)stall (although that depends on the team too; it won't be much of an issue with the team from the edit, and my perspective here may be a tad off from using Gliscor on all my teams x_x), but that's also a harder format than singles; Triples on the other hand is the easiest format, but those battles can get a tad long from in-game lag.
 
Don't battles with Gliscor take a long time, as it uses a stall set?

EDIT: Also, what exactly are the 60 Speed EVs used for in the Suicune sample set? It just says that they are "to avoid awkward Speed ties."
 
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Yes, Gliscor is defensive and stall-y, but it is not supposed to be the lead, the lead is supposed to be M-Khan.

Referring to your previous post, I consider Mega Scizor better (i.e. easier to build around and to use) than Mega Kangaskhan. But then again, it may be just cuz I've grown tired of using M-Khan. For a team around M-Khan, I used to run it with Aegislash and Clefable. Got me to 50 wins in my first try without checking sets and all that good stuff people around here do (tho I don't know if that's a big deal lol). With Mega Scizor, I would run Greninja and Dragonite/Garchomp. You mentioned Lucario and The Dutch Plumberjack didn't address it, so I will. I'm currently trying out Garchomp with Mega Lucario and Togekiss. Close Combat punches holes in almost everything, and I run Shadow Claw for coverage. Lucario is too frail and not fast enough to be a lead, but it is a nice switch in for Ice type moves.

Right now I just had a very close call. It involved a Leaf Blade crit on Garchomp from Virizion and a Rock Slide crit on Togekiss from Terrakion. Togekiss lived tho, and the paraflinch hax on the Entei was the realest.
 
Misdreavus The Dutch plumberjack is right in that if you Just want to rack up BP then doubles is best and quickest with a level 1 Aron (i can trade you berry juice if u need it) and either TR or set up sweeper. All the best singles teams involve stall mons of some kind to wear down move pp until it's safe to set up core mons, doubles allow more for a maverick all out attack
 
2. Is Kangaskhan-M arguably the best Pokémon to use in singles, assuming I don't go for one of those AI-abusing strategies like Entrainment Durant?
3. How do Thundurus, Garchomp, Gengar, Starmie, Metagross, Latios, Lucario, and the legendary dogs fare in singles, and do any of them work well with Mega Kanga? (Those are just some of the Pokémon that I have ready to go on previous gen games.)
2. Mega Kangaskhan is the easiest-to-pilot strong lead sweeper you can field in the Maison. Return, Power-Up Punch, Sucker Punch, and Earthquake make for a moveset that requires only a small amount of skill to effectively pilot against the AI, and Mega Kanga rarely fails to make even trades with the enemy even in unfavorable matchups. Multiscale Dragonite is more reliable as a lead sweeper, but it takes longer to learn how to play it, and it frequently requires more set up than Mama Khan. She also makes a damn good revenge killer if you're looking for that role on your team - she's easily as good as Scarfchomp in that regard. (Obviously you run Fake Out over Power-Up Punch if you're running her as a revenge killer.)

3. I can say from personal experience that Mega Kanga and Lati@s make a pretty strong pair. Lati@s can switch into many of the things that threaten Kangaskhan, and each is worried by entirely different status effects. None of the other members of that list bear any special mention alongside Mega Kanga, although MK/Latios/Lucario would be a pretty effective suicide squad for scrapping together 50-100 win streaks for BP in pretty short amounts of time. (And would probably be pretty fun to play, at that.)
 
Fwiw re. the "fastest way to rack up BP" thing, I've also found doubles to play faster than singles; a decent Fake Out + spread move team smashes its way through most / nearly all battles in 3-5 turns while singles battles can get pretty long if you have to (switch)stall (although that depends on the team too; it won't be much of an issue with the team from the edit, and my perspective here may be a tad off from using Gliscor on all my teams x_x), but that's also a harder format than singles; Triples on the other hand is the easiest format, but those battles can get a tad long from in-game lag.
Misdreavus The Dutch plumberjack is right in that if you Just want to rack up BP then doubles is best and quickest with a level 1 Aron (i can trade you berry juice if u need it) and either TR or set up sweeper. All the best singles teams involve stall mons of some kind to wear down move pp until it's safe to set up core mons, doubles allow more for a maverick all out attack
I'd recommend Eppie's doubles set as well. I tried it and managed to rack up 80 wins in 2-3 hours.
So lots of people are suggesting doubles. I don't intend on aiming for an amazingly-long winning streak; I just want to get the BP that I need for the good items, along with the Starf and Lansat Berries. Is doubles the best way to do this in the most timely manner?

Also, I thought that the Level 1 Aron was a singles gimmick, and I've only seen it hold Shell Bell and with Sandstorm support. In theory, it sounds so poor in doubles because it can just be double-targeted circumvent Sturdy. How exactly does this doubles Berry Juice version work?
 
It ideally is used in Trick Room, with it acting as attack bait with Protect to allow its partner to set up Trick Room. From there it can utilize super-fast endeavors with its partner finishing stuff off with a damaging move before the foe even moves. Aron in doubles effectively gives your partner 3 turns to do whatever it wants, barring Mold Breakers or Knock Off users/similar things.
 
So lots of people are suggesting doubles. I don't intend on aiming for an amazingly-long winning streak; I just want to get the BP that I need for the good items, along with the Starf and Lansat Berries. Is doubles the best way to do this in the most timely manner?

Also, I thought that the Level 1 Aron was a singles gimmick, and I've only seen it hold Shell Bell and with Sandstorm support. In theory, it sounds so poor in doubles because it can just be double-targeted circumvent Sturdy. How exactly does this doubles Berry Juice version work?
Eppie has a write up of how his doubles team setup as well as some battle videos demoing how he uses his team over here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-maison-discussion-records.3492706/page-169

The idea behind a level 1 Aron is to exploit the AI of the Battle Maison. In the BM, AI pokemon have a tendency to go for the OHKO above all else and since Aron has low HP, it becomes AI's favorite target. Aron has sturdy however preventing it from being OHKO. Furthermore with berry juice Aron will fully restore its HP after taking its first hit. This allows Aron to take 3 hits before it's KOed. Its starting partner, Dusclops with Eviolite has great bulk and can take a ton of hits before it's KOed, allowing it to set up trick room which allows Aron go first each turn. Furthermore, Dusclops has night shade so when Aron uses endeavor on an opposing pokemon, it'll reduce it to 12 HP which will allow Night Shade to easily finish off that pokemon. So a run-of-the-mill match with Aron will go something like:

Turn 1: Aron uses Protect, Dusclops uses Trick Room
Turn 2: Aron uses Endeavor, Dusclops uses Night Shade. 1 opposing pokemon is KO-ed.
Aron is hit by the remaining pokemon, Sturdy activates, berry juice restores Aron to full HP.
Turn 3: Aron uses Endeavor, Dusclops uses Night Shade. 1 opposing pokemon is KO-ed.
Aron is hit by the remaining pokemon, Sturdy activates, Aron has 1 HP.
Turn 4: Aron uses Endeavor, Dusclops uses Night Shade. 1 opposing pokemon is KO-ed
Aron is hit by the remaining pokemon and Aron is KO-ed.

Now at this point having KO-ed 3 opposing pokemon Conkeldurr and M-Kang should easily finish off the match.

With this there are things to watch out for like priority users that will KO Aron before he manages to land endeavor (however even in cases like these I've managed to KO at least 2 of their pokemon before Aron is KO-ed). However the big pain in the ass is status moves like burn, poison, and frozen (100% of my runs ended because of a Glaceon freezing me). Then there is the Hail weather condition that will break Aron's sturdy which is really annoying as well so you might want to switch out to Conkeldurr during such times.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Walrein and its Sheer Cold is another big pain in the ass when it KOs OHKOs Dusclops before it manages to setup trick room (it happens in one of Eppie's videos).
 
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Adding onto the above, a lvl 1 Aron threat in the early matches (between battle 1-40) is Pinsir2 (476 | Pinsir2 | Lonely | Insect Plate | Feint | X-Scissor | Stone Edge | Bug Bite | Atk/Spd) ..the Ai poke will get a random ability, including its HA's, if Pinsir2 comes out with mold breaker then it can break protect with feint and mold breaker ignores sturdy = OHKO. I think I'm right in saying you won't see him after battle 40 though
 
Misdreavus, I believe doubles IS the fastest way to get BP. But if you go for triples, IMO, it will be a little bit smoother. Triple battles are generally easier and are sometimes just as fast. With my team it takes about 3-5 minutes (in triples) which is about the same as a double battle. TR is one option in doubles, but many very succesful doubles teams are Greninja/??? like turskain's greninja/raikou or The dutch plumberjack's greninja/M-blaziken.
 
Durant-Cloyster is fastest for the 200 range, and winning 200 battles gets you enough BP for just about all of your non-Ability Capsule needs. For that length of streak, you could even bypass using Drapion and just go with some generic good mon that you have on hand as the third team member. I believe the stuff you see in Doubles/Triples that has the edge over spread attack spamming (the right immunity abilities paired with other threats) takes longer to play around than bringing in the non-Cloyster sweeper every once in a while.
 
Why exactly does Eppie's team use M-Kangaskhan? We all know it's one of the best Pokemon, but isn't he too fast for Trick Room?

---

Durant-Cloyster is fastest for the 200 range, and winning 200 battles gets you enough BP for just about all of your non-Ability Capsule needs. For that length of streak, you could even bypass using Drapion and just go with some generic good mon that you have on hand as the third team member. I believe the stuff you see in Doubles/Triples that has the edge over spread attack spamming (the right immunity abilities paired with other threats) takes longer to play around than bringing in the non-Cloyster sweeper every once in a while.
For singles?
 
Why exactly does Eppie's team use M-Kangaskhan? We all know it's one of the best Pokemon, but isn't he too fast for Trick Room?
?
With TR you always need a poke that can work outside of TR whether it be by ability (gale wings) or priority (bullet punch, Sucker punch etc) so when TR runs out you're not a sitting duck. If you click the link of the team on the 1st page you'll see the thoughts behind it, I think eppie details his teams quite well if I remember correct.
Based upon the pokes you said you already had it may be easier to use mat block geninja (I can trade u a protean froakie if you need) and use him with M-Khan (PuP, return, Sucker punch, earthquake/drain punch) or M-lucario (nasty plot, aura sphere, flash cannon,?) and then a couple of what you already have , like latios and suicune prehaps. Check the spitbacks in my thread if your breeding a team.
 
Finally made it past 500. Initially I posted my modifications from R Inanimate's team here when my M.Kang wasn't working out. I apologize that the following post is going to be a bit lengthy.

Black Star (Greninja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Mat Block
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam

Elrond (Aron) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
- Endeavor
- Protect
- Toxic
- Swagger

Mega Menace (Salamence-Mega) @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Return
- Protect

Dark Phoenix (Talonflame) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Protect

Sharkcano (Garchomp) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Protect

Excalibur (Aegislash) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head


Mainly going to talk about the changes I've made from R Inanimate's team which I started with.

Greninja

I initially tried switching to M.Blastoise and while better still left me quite a bit nervous as he's slow (my team not being a Tailwind team) and doesn't hit as hard as I'd like against resistant enemies or when his health is low. So I sort of playfully switched to the more popular Greninja/Talonflame/Blastoise opening running Tailwind for a bit. During this time I changed Greninja's Surf to Dark Pulse. When I switched my team back to the Aron format I did not switch back to Surf however and found that this resulted in Aron lasting longer and not having to Protect as often (which seems really obvious now that I'm typing it) and even without Trick Room, Aron is a superstar so I kept Dark Pulse.

Salamence

I started using Salamance instead of Garchomp because of Weavile. Since Weavile outspeeds Timid Greninja and Garchomp is no longer using Focus Sash, this results in Garchomp getting OHKO unless I switch him out and wastes my chance of getting a setup Swords Dance. While Salamance is also weak to ice it has Intimidate and avoids the OHKO (or I could use Protect but that wastes a Dragon Dance setup) and outspeeds Weevile next turn and is able to take it out before it takes me out. I run Earthquake instead of Dragon Claw because of stubborn rock and steel types.

Talonflame

Talonflame is here because it's just an amazing pokemon. It dies fairly quickly though so I maxed out its HP EVs since Brave Bird and Tailwind get priority under Gale Wings anyway. Instead of running Choice Band I run Sharp Beak since getting choice locked is not something I like.

Aegislash

Nothing much different here except that I run King's Shield instead of Swords Dance and use Weakness Policy instead of Spell Tag. Another great pokemon that is becoming indispensable to me.

Garchomp

Instead of Focus Sash I use Life Orb since Greninja needs it more to avoid OHKOs from Electrodes, Manectrics, Raichus, other various speedy electric types as well as Choice Band Aerodactyl4.

Aron

He's the same as R Inanimate's team except he plays a great role here other than being bait. Despite this team not being a Trick Room team, his Endeavor really helps me get whittle down bulky resistant types since he doesn't care about resistance.


Usually a typical run will start with Greninja using Mat Block, Aron using Endeavor, and Salamance using Dragon Dance. Then the next turn Greninja will kill the pokemon weakened by Endeavor, Salamence will usually OHKO whatever he can, and Aron will use Endeavor again (he'll usually get hit unless I'm lucky but Berry Juice to the rescue!). I live in fear of Greninja2 as it matches my Greninja in speed and if it wins the speed tie, goodbye Salamence. Luckily that hasn't happened yet (though it's only a matter of time). Also my team is incredibly weak towards ice types so if the field is filled with ice types sometimes I'm hard pressed to clear it before it takes out Salamence (and sometimes Greninja if it's in Grass type). I hope to fix this by breeding a Rotom-W since my only water type doesn't have any water moves. However trying to get HP water is such a pain and Hydro Pump is quite unreliable.

Thanks for reading and here is battle 501:
KDPW-WWWW-WW3B-PJGR
 
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With TR you always need a poke that can work outside of TR whether it be by ability (gale wings) or priority (bullet punch, Sucker punch etc) so when TR runs out you're not a sitting duck. If you click the link of the team on the 1st page you'll see the thoughts behind it, I think eppie details his teams quite well if I remember correct.
Oh, okay. Might an Adamant nature be better for Kangaskhan then? It's already too fast for TR, so it seems like you might as well make the most of its Speed outside of TR.

Obviously Eppie's team does the job, but in theory, wouldn't it be better to have a physical and a special sweeper in reserve, instead of 2 physical sweepers (M-Kangaskhan and Conkeldurr)?
 
Oh, okay. Might an Adamant nature be better for Kangaskhan then? It's already too fast for TR, so it seems like you might as well make the most of its Speed outside of TR.

Obviously Eppie's team does the job, but in theory, wouldn't it be better to have a physical and a special sweeper in reserve, instead of 2 physical sweepers (M-Kangaskhan and Conkeldurr)?
Two special sweepers that do well in TR are mega-camerupt and clawitzer but both really like TR being up and not running out on them. With something as intense as doubles your back ups are there to finish the job and to make Sure u don't lose from a good position if TR runs out and for that there aren't any decent moves or ability's that support the special sweepers (vacum wave isn't doing much lol) the physical tanks are better supported by moves like Sucker punch or ability's like technician on priority moves, gale wings or in mega khans case a Parental bond Sucker punch. Typically Aron will last 4 of the TR moves so your next poke coming in may only get 1 turn under TR, in khans case he'll use PuP in that turn so can rely on Sucker punch if he needs and yes adamant or brave nature is best and not investing in speed makes him very hard to take down. Personally I'm working on a run using jellicent as the TR setter who is prob the best offensive setter there is (who is slow enough to actually use TR, M-gardevour doesnt count lol!) so she takes down anyone weak to special attacks.
 
@blokazoo, as mentioned your post you have a 4x weakness to ice on 2 of your pokemon. IMO I would try adding wide guard to Excalibur, maybe switching to a special set. Wide guard aleviates the pressure from ice types (blizzard anyway), allows you to spam EQ from salamence and garchomp and perhaps putting surf back on the menu. Not to mention protecting against rock slide for Dark Phoenix.
 
@blokazoo, as mentioned your post you have a 4x weakness to ice on 2 of your pokemon. IMO I would try adding wide guard to Excalibur, maybe switching to a special set. Wide guard aleviates the pressure from ice types (blizzard anyway), allows you to spam EQ from salamence and garchomp and perhaps putting surf back on the menu. Not to mention protecting against rock slide for Dark Phoenix.
I'm actually pretty happy with my Aegislash, as a bulky backup with priority that helps me clean up and also recover from disadvantageous situations, but might think about switching Aron with something like Call_Me_Charlie's Probopass which also runs Wide Guard. Also might swap Garchomp with Rotom-W and its Levitate will allow Salamence to spam Earthquake.

The Probopass would run Pain Split instead of Endeavor and function like a sort of Aron.
 
My second run to go past the Battle Chatelaine has come to an end. I've been trying to get a decent run with some of my fav mons for a while now and this time I reached 79 wins. Nothing great but I was still happy with it.



Cheater (Garchomp) @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
Garchomp is such a great mon. It's above 100 base speed and it hits so hard. It's also bulky enough to live a Dazzling Gleam from anything. Most battles have Garchomp OHKO/2HKO everything. Sometimes I have to set up a Swords Dance but it still lives a hit and fires back to OHKO after setting up. Substitute is a great move for Garchomp because of Blizzard. Unless I'm against an Abomasnow or an Aurorus, I am usually able to attempt Substitute multiple times until Blizzard misses. From there, I Swords Dance up and OHKO the other mon in the next turn. There are some mons that are difficult to handle and I literally can't handle Togekiss (I once set up to +6 before realizing I couldn't hit Togekiss at all).

Hyuga (Lucario) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw
My favorite pokémon period. Mega Lucario punches holes in anything. This set 2HKOs everything at +2 except for Vespiquen3. Not much to be said about this one, I just love Mega Lucario.

Togekiss @ Lum Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nasty Plot
This is a special one. I got a shiny Togepi at the beginning of my Alpha Sapphire run through Wonder Trading. It was meant to be physically defensive, I suppose, but I still went with max Speed because I want to flinch as many things as possible. Paraflinch hax is real, it's the best thing in the game, and it's what pushed me through many close calls. The nature allowed it to live a Stone Edge from Tyranitar at one point, and from Terrakion at another, so it's pretty useful sometimes. I still would prefer if it was Timid but it's a shiny Togekiss with perfect IVs, I won't complain about a thing. I'm thinking about taking away Nasty Plot and teaching it another offensive move for coverage. Flamethrower, Psychic, maybe Ancient Power because of Serene Grace.

The loss happened because of Veteran Jai. I misplayed terribly, sending Lucario in against an Alakazam with either Focus Blast or Specs Psychic. Because the loss happened because of a misplay, I will try again with this team. I just wanted to make a post here with some sort of result instead of lurking around.
 

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Are long streak singles sets mostly stall based? Is it possible to get a high streak using more offensive play?
Depends on what you mean with "stall" and "offensive". Strategies based around "choose the super-effective move with no set-up" tend to be ineffective in the long run. It is more common - and effective - to cripple the first 'mon of the opponent, then set up your own sweeper to become an unstoppable juggernaught through multiple boosts, then bulldoze through the opposing team. It is an offensive playstyle, but only after a while. Start defensively, build offenses until you are certain you can destroy the opponent, attack. Slow and tedious, maybe, but it's a strategy for the long haul.
 
Depends on what you mean with "stall" and "offensive". Strategies based around "choose the super-effective move with no set-up" tend to be ineffective in the long run. It is more common - and effective - to cripple the first 'mon of the opponent, then set up your own sweeper to become an unstoppable juggernaught through multiple boosts, then bulldoze through the opposing team. It is an offensive playstyle, but only after a while. Start defensively, build offenses until you are certain you can destroy the opponent, attack. Slow and tedious, maybe, but it's a strategy for the long haul.
Thanks for the info!
 
Just had an actual streak for a while.
78 wins in Super Singles, I'm only giving out the replay to those who ask for it just for personal reasons.
This is perhaps the worst team that made it on to the leaderboard.

Azumarill (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 6 Def / 29 SpA / 21 SpD
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet

Blaziken (M) @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
IVs: 28 HP / 0 Atk / 21 Def / 19 SpA / 27 SpD
- Flare Blitz
- Brick Break
- Protect
- Knock Off

Sylveon (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 SpA
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Shadow Ball


This team has little to no strategy that went into the teambuilding. I just took some good pokes I had lying around and slapped a team out of them. I'll probably breed for a better Blaziken sooner or later, that one sucked. This team's goal is to destroy most opponents before they become able to pose a threat. Almost all of my losses have been due to hax, and simply playing intelligently is more than enough to secure a win in almost all cases. The moves were chosen in such a way as to minimize the amount of hax that could happen due to a miss, notably dropping High Jump Kick on Blaziken for the MUCH weaker Brick Break. Hidden Power Electric on Sylveon helps deal with certain Empoleon sets in a last-mon situation(last-mon situations usually the only time you pick a move other than Hyper Voice). The loss I suffered was due to a misplay that stemmed from not knowing back-ups (Flare Blitz also had a chance of KOing its target). This team is nowhere near satisfactory enough for a very long streak, however, and I probably won't reach 100+ until I can re-breed Blaziken.
 
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