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Hydreigon is one of those pokes I actually wish had much worse speed. It's already not outspeeding a large number of things that can kill it, and might be more suited to kill bulkier things were it given something as piddly as, say, 70 speed while those 20+ points were invested into SpA or even bulk.
I'd love to be able to accomodate it on a Trick Room team, since I've been having a lot of good experience with other Focus Energy users, particularly Bouffalant.
(That "May we never meet again" thing regarding Multi AI? That was a lie.)-- my streak ended at 53. TGYW-WWWW-WWW9-M42C ; Mega-Kangaskhan/Garchomp/Charizard/Raikou
Hydreigon in Singles does seem rather bad. Its Speed is a few points too low, and the 4x Fairy weakness isn't good - even Cresselia4's Moonblast will OHKO (and Dazzling Gleam from Espeon4) and you'd expect a Dark-type to have a decent match-up against Cress. It also loses badly to its fellow pseudo-legendary dragons (Garchomp4, Multiscale Dragonite4, Goodra4); Goodra4 in particular can be surprisingly unfun if your Dragon can't KO it, as it's got Draco Meteor/Thunder/Fire Blast/Blizzard for a lot of damage on the many things it can hit super-effectively, including Aegislash. Getting outsped and KO'd by Garchomp4 is also not good if you're a Dragon-type in Singles:
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 152-180 (90.4 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Assuming Modest Choice Scarf Hydreigon with Aegislash on the team from here on out, as it seems like the best choice out of the lacking options; it could be Speed cut slightly for a few extra points of HP, but it wouldn't change the general outlook. Third team member not accounted for.
The vaunted "resistance to every type" of the Aegislash/Hydreigon partnership isn't as good as it sounds. Type resistance alone doesn't mean it's safe to switch in; Electric resistance is nice, but a paralysis proc and Thunder Wave will still cripple it - and you can't afford to run Lum Berry on this Dragon, unlike the good Dragons. It also does badly against some key threats to Aegislash - most notably Froslass4, threatening Aegislash with Shadow Ball and Focus Sash and outspeeding Hydreigon for an easy KO - you'll need to sac either 'mon and come out of the situation with either with +0 Aegislash or with a Choice-locked Hydreigon. Resisting Fire is good, and Hydreigon doesn't mind burn; howewer, the Fighting weakness dramatically reduces the usefulness of resisting Fire against many Pokémon. Fire attacks often come together with Close Combat and Focus Blast: particularly bad ones for Hydreigon seem to be Arcanine4 (which Hydreigon can't securely KO even after Flare Blitz recoil), Charizard4 (Assault Vest, 252+ Dragon Pulse only 3HKOs while Focus Blast is a sure KO when switching into Heat Wave), Blaziken4 (Speed Boost, Shuca Berry to survive Earth Power, Low Kick is an OHKO) and possibly more. Getting an Attack drop with King's Shield on some of these helps, but depending on Attack drops to survive a hit that would KO on a crit is quite risky, and inadvisable to play for unless you're in an unusually bad situation. You could switch "stall" to rack up Flare Blitz recoil on Arcanine to get it in KO range; but that's exactly as stupid as it sounds, and will get Hydreigon severely damaged and possibly burnt and killed. Neither of these will help the duo against Charizard4 or Froslass4.
Additionally, Levitate doesn't grant flawless Ground immunity; the most threatening Mold Breaker users in the Maison, Excadrilll4 and Sawk4 (both with Life Orb) are top targets for Aegislash/Flying switch stalling with their Multiscale-piercing Mold Breaker, Sturdy, and high damage output, and Hydreigon will not cut it against them.
The bottom line is: don't use Hydreigon in Maison Singles, even with Aegislash; use a different Dragon instead (or something else entirely). For synergy with Aegislash, Dragonite is better for its true Flying-type Ground immunity and ability to set up on many Fire types that threaten Aegislash; as a Scarfer, Garchomp beats it handily.
The Froslass point could be a bit unfair towards Hydreigon since Froslass4 is a giant threat that kills everything, but for a Pokémon whose whole schtick in Singles is "synergy with Aegislash", I think it's fair - also since Hydreigon is a Dark-type, which would usually be the one to kill Froslass (lookin' at you, Greninja and Sharpedo).
Doubles/Triples are a different matter - as shown by Mercury's ongoing 2000-win Triples streak, Hydreigon can very powerful in Triples with its cross-field STAB moves.
Edit: still more on the point of its low damage output that NoCheese mentioned - usually, Dragons deal big damage with Outrage (120 BP, STAB) and Earthquake for coverage (100 BP). Hydreigon's best reliable equivalent attacks are Dragon Pulse (85 BP, STAB) and Earth Power (90 BP); that's already a huge drop on your main Dragon move, and a 10% drop on your Ground attack. Further, its decent 125 base SAtk is also relevant in comparison to other dragons; Dragonite's EQ from 135 base Atk, for example, not only has 10 more BP but also a bit more Attack behind it. Garchomp (Adamant Scarf) has STAB EQ off of base 130 attack. No matter how you spin it, its damage loses out to other Dragons significantly, and their trademark huge Outrage is missing. Draco Meteor drops your SAtk which makes sweeps and many 2HKOs impossible, in addition to 90% accuracy. For example, after an SAtk drop, 252+ Draco Meteor will not 2HKO Walrein4 even with its power.
High base power moves in general are what make Pokémon deal big damage; Cloyster has 125BP Icicle Spear, physical Fire-types have 120BP Flare Blitz, Fighting-types have Close Combat and Dragons have 120BP Outrage. Weaker special counterparts include Flamethrower (90 BP), and others. The relatively low base power of reliable special attacks makes their users want boosting items as NoCheese said - it's no coincidence that Water-types with ~100 base SAtk and 80-90BP moves in Rotom-W and Greninja (in different modes) both found themselves carrying Specs in the end. Specs Latios was big in previous-gen battle facilities; with the item, its Dragon Pulse has similar power compared to Garchomp's Adamant Outrage, and Draco Meteor becomes truly massive. What the three mentioned Pokémon have and Hydreigon/Heatran don't is sufficient Speed and and other qualities to make do without a Choice Scarf; Hydreigon ends up having to choose between good Speed with lacking damage, and big damage with lacking Speed as NoCheese said.
I finally got around to learning to RNG (starting with genIV, HGSS), and got some new stuff. Most notably, the Triples Scizor has been tweaked again! It now has Superpower over Brick Break, being replaced with a HGSS breed.
Caught a Kangashkan as well. I came ill-prepared with nothing to weaken or status it and very few Poké Balls, and was caught by surprise by its low-ish catch rate. But doing calcs revealed that my in-game Lv41 Dewgong's Ice Shard dealt 94.7% maximum, which successfully weakened it for the catch without inflicting a critical hit. Kangaskhan was Lv14; seems like it's quite a bulky beast even before Mega Evolution!
While I'm making a post, let me share an EV training story:
How do you easily EV specific spreads to your Pokés when re-EVing them every 10 battles? The on-site guide tells you that hordes and power items exist and give a lot of EVs, but the applications of it all are a bit more fun.
To EV this new Scizor to 252 HP / 164 Atk / 4 Def / 44 SDef / 44 Spe, I started with vitamins - 10 in HP/Atk, 4 in SDef/Spe. I then went to Winding Woods, put it in a slot where it wouldn't get Pokérus, gave it a Power Anklet, and killed one Pokémon in a horde - any of the three hordes will do, as all of them have a Pokémon that gives either HP and Atk, both of which we'll be working on later. Then I repeated the process with Power Band and Power Belt (making sure Scizor didn't get infected with Pokérus in the process) - now Scizor has 4 Def / 44 SDef / 44 Spe. From here, Scizor was put in a Pokerus-infectious party slot, given Power Weight and hordes were killed (both Trevenant and Foongus hordes are applicable, as both HP and Atk are still needed). Once HP was maxed, I switched to Power Bracer and killed two more hordes to fill the remainder into Attack, hitting 164 Atk. With this, Scizor was rapidly EV trained precisely in five stats, all in one route using only hordes - without risk of rain, or slow, horrible Super Training.
Similar strategies were used in re-EVing the Rotom-W I've had to tinker with a few times. Scizor is easy since HP and Attack are both easy "dump stats"; for 252-less spreads, you may have to make do with just one "dump stat"; which would be HP for the Rotom-W EV'd for the Triples team while you hit 216 EVs in Spe and 120 in SAtk with Power items in Winding Woods (with Power Items, getting exactly 116 EVs (4*5=20 EVs per horde, 4 per Pokémon) is easy. 20 EVs in SAtk is similarly just one straight Horde with Power Lens). The power of Power items often makes it preferable NOT to go to a specific route to train a stat; the 4EVs per Pokémon given by them are a perfect fit for EV training any spread you like, and using them with Hordes that don't give EVs in the same stat as the Power item reveals their true power.
Thanks for all the replies everyone! I appreciate the depth you guys went into with threats and all that. I'm not really sure where to go now though. I definitely want to stick with Destiny Bond for now as that was my original idea, and Aegislash has proven to work very well with Sharpedo, the weak link is obviously Hydreigon. When looking at successful DBond teams from the Subway I saw Gengar/Chomp/Cune worked for Mercury and even NoCheese had success with Gengar/Chomp/Scizor. I obviously didn't want to straight up rip off team ideas so I tried theorymoning stuff. Suicune is already popular here (obvious reasons) and I also don't have a good one, also two water types... Scizor is cool so I considered it, but Aegislash is also a bulky steel type with priority and I had already bred and trained one for the Maison so that settled it. Then I just needed a third, Scarf Chomp is good, maybe I should just adapt that for Hydra because of it's defensive synergy with Aegi? I've thought about Dragonite but he is already featured on an Aegislash team ran by Artic, and since I figured I would be switching him in he would lose his precious Multiscale so wouldn't be able to set up so well.
I think the best way to play with DBond is try and take the first 'mon, then have a 1-'mon wrecker to back up the DBonder with the third covering the weaknesses of the sweeper. The way my team turned out (unintentionally) is that Aegislash became the 1-'mon wrecker and Hydreigon was his back up/switch in. Honestly it works except I've made mistakes which lead to the losses I've had, I'm yet to actually face something that I just couldn't beat... I think I'll try again but with LO on Hydra but even though it does suck I think Scarf will be better.
If only I wasn't such a dirty hipster I might actually try something more common/reliable but I want to be ~different~
Also turskain thought I might put my 2 cents in on EVing...
If you were open to a little Super Training it would have been easy too...
For Scizor @ 252 HP / 164 Atk / 4 Def / 44 SDef / 44 Speed:
You're right, Winding Woods is the best because it gives HP which you're maxing so it doesnt need to be counted. I would have infected with PKRS, equipped the Power Band and killed a Foongus Horde which would give 40 SDef, then swap to the Anklet and do the same for 40 speed, then swap to the Bracer and kill 4 Hordes for 160 attack. Then you would just need to do one level 1 Super Training each for attack, defence, s.def and speed (4 each). After all this you'd be on 60 HP from the Foongus, 4 more hordes with the Power Weight on would max it out at 252. That's 10 Horde battles in total and 4 (easy) Super Trainings
For Rotom, to get 216 speed (still in Winding Woods where you would be getting HP) I would have just killed 5 Hordes with the Anklet to get 200, then do one level 3 Super Training of Speed and one of level 1 to get the 16 (12+4). 120 s.attack is obviously just 3 Hordes with the lens, then max out your HP (I assume).
I'm not saying my way was better, very clever to only use one route and only Hordes to get the EVs, but Super Training works for those precise spreads
Just to let you know my singles streak has ended with a fairly modest run of 137. Whilst it's not particularly impressive, it is a pretty huge personal best for myself, and I may try and push the team a little further (I was cruising and shouldn't have really lost that last match).
Here's the team:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Protean
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Surf
Just to let you know my singles streak has ended with a fairly modest run of 137. Whilst it's not particularly impressive, it is a pretty huge personal best for myself, and I may try and push the team a little further (I was cruising and shouldn't have really lost that last match).
Here's the team:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Protean
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Surf
You've got Gliscor listed as timid and Aegislash doesn't have a nature. Also, how well did Weakness Policy work for you? Would be nice if there were a couple of battle videos to see how it worked
Sorry, I did that in a bit of a rush! I meant Jolly, of course, and Aegislash is Adamant.
Weakness Policy was really handy. There's so many SE attacks Shield forme can tank and that +2 bonus after tanking the hit is very useful indeed. Aegislash managed to set up on a lot of Pokemon, leading to some very easy victories.
You've just been looking at the wrong sweepers, my friend! You go around looking for Pokemon with "good attacking stats" or "unresisted one-move coverage." I have no need for such luxuries!
Behold, my all-powerful Entrainment Durant team, with a combined Base Stat Total of 1114 (an average of 371.3, though one of them essentially has a BST of 0):
Sableye (level 1) @ Focus Sash
Nature: Naughty (if you're a fan of Naughty By Nature; otherwise, it doesn't matter)
Ability: Prankster
EVs: Are for losers
- Taunt
- Trick
- Embargo
- Toxic
Sableye is supposed to die. Using its level 1 magnetism, the AI will be very drawn to attacking it and not very drawn to setting up Prankster Double Teams (here's looking at you, Tornadus) or using Protect to activate their Flame Orbs, allowing you to use Embargo. Taunt is hella obvious; you don't want Protect ruining your party. Trick takes away Choice items, giving the AI more turns to sit there watching themselves die. Embargo blocks the use of Bright Powder, Lax Incense, and Quick Claw. Toxic allows Sableye to defeat such dangerous threats as Spiritomb 4 (can only attack with Sucker Punch) and Shiftry 4 (can only hit Sableye with Sucker Punch), who will stay in and hilariously faint against a Level 1 Sableye.
So the question is "Why Sableye?" Other than the obvious fact that Sableye is awesome, its Ghost typing is a huge advantage, blocking the opponent from using Explosion or High Jump Kick. The two HJK users after battle #40, Medicham and Mienshao, CANNOT HIT SABLEYE, thanks to its awesome Dark/Ghost typing giving it an immunity to Normal, Psychic, and Fighting. Since nothing will use Explosion on Sableye or Durant, Smeargle gets to come in safely. Sableye fainting is typically good (less chance for Roar to mess you up; don't have to use up as many turns of Embargo/Taunt to bring in Durant), but in some circumstances, you want to keep it alive. More on that later.
Durant wants to be able to OHKO Magic Bounce Espeon (you just assume all Espeon are Magic Bounce and switch in Durant immediately).
Offensive Smeargle is hilarious. It forgoes a set-up move, opting instead to sit there being a pain in the ass while Moody gradually boosts its stats. After an extremely long time, Stored Power will have an absurd base power (and some SpAtk boosts behind it), allowing it to slaughter anything. The SpAtk EVs are obviously essential, because Smeargle has base 20 Special Attack. But when fully invested and with a Modest nature, even Smeargle can become a nuclear bomb with Stored Power. The base power gets high enough that it doesn't care about Quagsire, and even Cresselia can be OHKO'd with enough boosts. Miracle Eye lets Stored Power hit anything, so even Dark-types aren't safe. But you need to use a LOT of PP to get there, and 16 Protects isn't nearly enough. That's where Miracle Eye's second function comes in. It doesn't matter if the opponent breaks Smeargle's Sub, since you can just set up another one. So a typical move cycle is Protect (opponent attacks), Substitute (opponent loafs), Miracle Eye (opponent breaks Sub), Miracle Eye (opponent loafs); rinse and repeat. Eventually the Def/SpDef/Evasion boosts will get high enough that they won't be breaking your Sub very often, so you can just sit there spamming Miracle Eye, restoring the Sub when necessary. Miracle Eye has 40 PP, giving it an insane 64 PP when maxed out.
Second and third Pokemon Dark-types are annoying, because you have to take a turn to use Miracle Eye in order to hit them. But it's rare that they actually do anything to you thanks to the Def/SpDef/Evasion boosts, so in my experience, it didn't really matter.
The AI can do stuff to get out of the lock (U-Turn, Explosion, Volt Switch), but they'll often wait a few turns to do so (especially because Smeargle is super frail and Explosion isn't necessary to take it out most of the time). By then, the Moody ball is already rolling, and you can often buy enough time with just Sub and Protect to get the boosts you need to win even without fully boosting.
Moody boosts everything, so Smeargle hardly even cares if the second or third Pokemon have traditionally threatening items or abilities. Bright Powder/Lax Incense? Sorry, I have boosted accuracy. Focus Sash/Sturdy? They only have a 1 in 3 chance to hit you with max evasion; knock them down to the Sash on turn 1 and just keep setting up Subs until they miss/fail to break it, then finish them off. Same thing with Quick Claw; they need both luck and power to actually hit you and break the Sub.
This team's biggest weakness is Taunt. Durant won't get hit by it, but Smeargle can, meaning you need to Protect every time a Taunt user can attack. This gives you 32 turns of set-up, which sounds like a lot, but you have no control over Moody. With only 32 turns, you can wind up with some stat drops in the wrong places (typically Speed and Special Attack). The same is true of users of sound-based moves, but you can usually stall out the PP on those.
I used my 543 team for the first 40 battles (there are more Taunt users in battles 1-40), then used this team after that. I lost at battle 102 to a surprisingly terrible combination of factors. The AI led with Aggron 4, a terrible Pokemon that happens to use Taunt. I sacrifice Sableye (as usual), Entrainment, bring in Smeargle, "set up" for a little under 30 turns (leaving a few Sub/Protect PP left), but wound up with several speed drops (I think I was -3 or something). I knew I had max SpAtk, so I decided to kill the Aggron (which I did, in one hit). The AI sends in Politoed, who outspeeds and hits with Focus Blast, despite me being at like +5 evasion. The last Pokemon is Wailord, who I know has Fissure. I use Protect to try to boost my speed (since Wailord is slow), but my speed ends up dropping again instead. I go in for the kill with Stored Power, but it outspeeds and KOs Smeargle with Fissure. Durant's got nothin' on Wailord.
This was a particularly unlikely combination of factors (speed drops due to not having enough turns to set up because of Taunt, a miracle Focus Blast hit on the Sub followed by a Fissure hit), but against many Taunt users, the team could be played to win the battle. The trick is to start attacking with Smeargle before your PP have been worn down too much. Stored Power will typically be strong enough as is, and after using 8 Protect PP, you'll usually have boosts in some desired stats. By taking out the Taunt user, the AI has to bring in their next Pokemon. Against a Smeargle with a total of 16 boosts, most Pokemon will have real problems doing anything, even without Truant. That gives you time to set up and take the AI out. Against some Taunt users that do pitiful damage to Durant (e.g. Crobat, Aggron), you can just switch in Durant right off the bat, knowing they'll go for an attacking move. Then you use Entrainment, set up using half of the Protect PP, and if the opponent brings something out that puts you in a bad spot, just go back to Sableye and use Entrainment on the new threat.
The thing about this team is that, due to the nature of Smeargle, it doesn't always NEED Entrainment. There's only one case I can think of where I wouldn't use it; against Machamp 4 and Throh 4 (both have Protect/Flame Orb), Sableye can use Trick on turn 1, but then they OHKO (b/c no Sash) and can Protect against Durant. If you Taunt on turn 1, the Orb activates, burning them to death over time. If you Embargo on turn 1, you can Taunt on turn 2 and the Orb will still activate once Embargo wears off. So you're best just using Trick and going straight to Smeargle. The AI has a tendency to use Protect when it has it, so you'll often be able to get away with setting up until you get enough evasion that they miss.
I don't actually know if this team "works"; I believe its loss was avoidable by taking proper precautions against Taunt (and I think the particular combination of opponents that made Smeargle beatable after set up, along with the hits on low accuracy moves, were rare), but it's possible that Moody gives bad results more often than more "standard" teams do. But it will be a very long time before I test this again (even though I think it can go much further), because it is the slowest team in the universe. Seriously, it makes Acupressure Drapion look downright speedy. Most times, you get a total of +1 per turn (+2 in one stat, -1 in another). As you accumulate more boosts, you can get +0 total (because you boost a +5 stat, only giving it a +1 while taking a -1 from another stat). An average battle took like ten minutes. Maybe if I could actually keep track of all the boosts, I would know when I'm safe to sweep and start earlier, but doing so would take a ton of mental energy and would probably only take longer in the long run. I would love to see what this team can do with the knowledge I gained from my loss, but honestly, it will be a while before I consider trying it.
If you're just trying to get the Starf Berry or whatever, use something else; even other Entrainment teams are WAY faster than this. But if you want to start your slow descent into madness, watching Pokemon with horrendous base stats totally annihilate teams of the most dangerous and powerful Pokemon found in the Maison, feel free to give them a try. If nothing else, I like that I have a level 1 Sableye and an offensive Smeargle who have the "Expert Battler Ribbon" for beating the Chatelaine. Maybe they can't do much better than this, or maybe they're actually the most powerful team the Super Singles line has ever seen. The world may never know.
This is easily my favorite post in this thread. Posts like this are why I love ingame 3-on-3 play, and why I will slowly but surely read every post in this thread. I genuinely wish that teams like this weren't so slow, because at some point, arriving at "the most powerful team the Super Singles line has ever seen" (I know you were partially kidding but I don't have to be modest on your behalf) deserves some sort of real kudos/honor.
Here's a fact about sharks: Sharks cannot be killed. Even a frenzied shark turning on itself cannot die, as its fashionable sash will protect it from any attempts on its life, including those of its own.
+2 252+ Atk Sharpedo Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 158-186 (121.5 - 143%)
252 Atk Carbink Explosion (75% damage) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 159-188 (122.3 - 144.6%)
Stay tuned for the next exciting installment in this series of shark factoids.
Hey all! I've been messing around in Battle Maison with an Entrainment Durant team (lolololol I'm a noob) and hit a streak of 104 (and still going!) Here's the team:
Durant (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
Jolly Nature
-Entrainment
-Crunch
-Iron Head
-X-Scissor
You know what Durant does, so I don't need to explain that. Everything but Entrainment is just filler, but I guess you've got attacks just in case you wanna pick off a last-mon Focus Sash? I mainly set up with Dragonite, and she's just a boss with her Multiscale (Good luck taking this thing down ever) and with Dragon Claw + Fire Punch hitting everything that shows up in Battle Maison at least neutrally excluding Heatran (and lolCarbink.) Mega Absol is used as a secondary set-up sweeper in case the opposing Pokemon has Roar or Whirlwind, and he can also take on Magic Bounce Espeon in case the opponent leads with that. Detect is used over Protect on Mega Absol just in case the opposing Pokemon has Imprison and Protect. In addition, because the AI loves going for status moves on Absol before he Megas up, he can even sweep if I can't give something Truant (replay shown below.)
Replays
Battle #60: LKGG-WWWW-WWW9-MZNK
This highlights my strategy in the event I see that dreaded Espeon lead. Magic Bounce blocks Entrainment, requiring me to go to Mega Absol in order to take Espeon down before I can even do anything with Durant. Of course, their Sylveon had Baton Pass, presenting yet another hurdle to breaking the team.
Battle #78: NYBW-WWWW-WWW9-MZNZ
This battle nearly ended my streak, with Durant getting Mean Look + Perish Song trapped. However, this replay really showcases Mega Absol's worth on this team, as he manages to sweep anyway, thanks to Magic Bounce reflecting Drifblim's Hypnosis. That's what you get for Perish Trapping my Durant!
Battle #104: 6CZW-WWWW-WWW9-MZNQ
My most recent battle, this one simply showcases the general strategy. Nothing special, really.
Anyway, back to breaking the Battle Maison. I'm coming for your record, Jumpman
Hi guys, just wanted to post my pic of conquering the Maison (finally got my last trophy yesterday, Super Multis, which I've been trying to get the past month).
Super Singles is pretty straightforward and I think I used Mega-Khan, Greninja and Talonflame. Most of the time, Mega-Khan takes care of at least 2 Mons. Fake out + Returns is the theme here.
For Super Doubles, Super Triples and Super Rotation, I took some of the teams posted here for their respective runs and I had no trouble beating the Chatelaines at all. Credits to everyone here for theorymoning some great teams.
The problem has been Super Multis where the partner AI randomness can lead to the demise or success of a battle. There's definitely an element of luck involved, and it can be frustrating at times. Finally, with my team of Greninja (Mat Block and 3 Sp. Attacks) + Conkeldurr (Physical AV Knock Off variant) and AI's team of Escavalier (LO variant with STAB Megahorn and Iron Head) + Claydol (Sp. Attacker), 50 win streak was achieved. Usually 1st turn is always Mat Block while AI's Escavalier goes to work with STAB attacks. Trouble was when I faced Fake Outs, Fire attacks and DD Gyarados, but for most of the run I was lucky enough to manage with those.
Volcarona goes in front, baiting any rock/water moves the opponent might have so that Ferrothorn/Milotic can come in and spread Leech Seed or burn. I originally added it to help deal with the Maison's bulky grass-types, as well as Weezing4/Cresselia2. Aside from that, it's a much more powerful sweeper than Gyarados, often able to win after one dance while behind a Substitute.
The HP gives me maximum bulk with an odd number, so that I can get 5 subsitutes. The Def is enough to survive Exeggutor's Explosion, the strongest physical attack I'll ever have to take from a grass-type. The speed is enough to outpace Sceptile 4, the fastest Leech Seeder I can afford to. The rest just goes into SpA since there's nothing more useful it can accomplish.
While asleep, Milotic is slightly bulkier than an unboosted Suicune. Scald spreads burns, Haze breaks setup, and RestTalk keeps it healthy. I'm not too concerned about the randomness of Sleep Talk, since Milotic's main job is to take hits. Getting a burn off of Scald or breaking setup with Haze is just an added bonus.
The HP gives maximum bulk of course, while Def makes Mamoswine 4's Earthquake a 3HKO while asleep. I can't remember what the SDef was for, but it's slightly above the threshold for surviving STAB Thunderbolts. The Spe goes one above all Excadrill.
Ferrothorn walls and weakens a lot of the things that threaten Volcarona/Milotic, as well as spreading some free healing around for the rest of the team.
The EVs ensure that neither Rampardos 3 or Glaceon 3 & 4 can 3HKO with Brick Break or Blizzard, respectively - not super relevant targets but not much seems to OHKO or 2HKO Ferrothorn that EVs could do something about, so that's what I decided on.
Don't really need to theorymon this one. 208 HP ensures that two turns of healing = 1 Substitute, 244 Spe outruns Jolly Blaziken, and the remaining goes into its' best stat.
In mock battles I beat him fairly consistently without any team change. Trying to break Volcarona's setup rather than pushing for damage was definitely a misplay, and the confusion hax from Hurricane made it worse.
That said, a second fire resist would have been great to have in this and other battles. I'm thinking Mega Charizard X with SubRoost, since it was one of the runner-ups for Volcarona's spot. Switching to Charizard means I won't have any weaknesses that aren't covered by a resistance, which is awesome.
Pre-Bank my options for replacing Gyarados were pretty slim though, and Fire Punch wasn't available on Charizard. I still don't like my chances of getting a non-hacked 5 IV Charizard with FP, so I might put this off until the Punch tutors come in ORAS. I do have a set in mind already, anyone care to comment?:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Jolly Nature
Stats: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 148 SDef / 68 Spe
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
Max HP and 148 SDef ensures that Roost can heal off the damage from Volcarona's +1 Hurricane, as well as giving 4 substitutes. The Spe hits 141 to outrun Sceptile, just like Volcarona did. I should probably do a more general calc but I'm in revenge mode lol.
That said, a second fire resist would have been great to have in this and other battles. I'm thinking Mega Charizard X with SubRoost, since it was one of the runner-ups for Volcarona's spot. Switching to Charizard means I won't have any weaknesses that aren't covered by a resistance, which is awesome.
Pre-Bank my options for replacing Gyarados were pretty slim though, and Fire Punch wasn't available on Charizard. I still don't like my chances of getting a non-hacked 5 IV Charizard with FP, so I might put this off until the Punch tutors come in ORAS. I do have a set in mind already, anyone care to comment?:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Jolly Nature
Stats: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 148 SDef / 68 Spe
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
Max HP and 148 SDef ensures that Roost can heal off the damage from Volcarona's +1 Hurricane, as well as giving 4 substitutes. The Spe hits 141 to outrun Sceptile, just like Volcarona did. I should probably do a more general calc but I'm in revenge mode lol.
The set doesn't have a set-up move, which will leave you with zero real sweepers. How about using Dragon Dance over Fire Punch with Dragon Claw as your sole attacking move, like the Dragonite used on my Rotations team? You won't get perfect coverage with Fairies walling it, but those are difficult for a Dragon to set up on anyway and "easy to check" - Gliscor outspeeds and beats all of them on its own already, unless it has to switch in to a crit. FP would be useful for those bulky Grass-types you mention, though. How about HP Fire over Sleep Talk on Milotic? Sounds gimmicky, sure, but it would kill Ferrothorn and Sleep Talk is something of a "do nothing" move anyway - and other Grass types should fall to the muscle of Dragon Claw.
This is just sickening. No matter how many precautions i take, always, always there's Trick Room. Beat it several times on this run, but when they suddenly start combining it with screens, i can only do so much, even if i'm on a 3-0 lead. Here we go again, at least there's finally a significant improvement. Posting a 232 win streak in Super Triples, and spilling the gorgeous team i've referenced several times in my posts over the past couple of days. Let's just get this over with.
O-kay, I've been living up to this writeup ever since I conceived this team, and even if it's far too early that I have to post it, I'm not gonna let this disappointment get me down ^_^ i've had way too much fun with this team to let that shitmove get the better of me. Presenting the road to a precious team that runs like a clockwork, hence the name Clockwork Angels.
To recap, this is the development of my triples team that eventually ended on a 166 win streak:
(doubles lead stolen from youtube)
(first version of doubles team)
(trophy-winning version of doubles team, with extra insurance against waters, reached high 80s. Later finalised to
, reached 147 straight wins)
(first serious version of triples team, built on the core of doubles team; tailwind earthquake-spamming hyperoffense. Won the trophy and eventually reached the mid-160s.)
(final version; new tailwind setter that could taunt trick room leads and removal of inaccurate moves. Reached 166 straight wins).
the sequel
As some of you may remember, this team lost three times in a row in the mid-160s, leading me to believe this was as good as it would get without a truly massive overhaul. I played other formats, scored some nice streaks there, but secretly I still wanted to score a nice record in Triples. If I were to build a new team, the core concept - i.e. Mat Block Tailwind offense - would remain, therefore these two were the only two from the previous team that were more or less guaranteed a spot on the new team. I was busy doing other stuff, so I didn't thoroughly think out a new team. There was one Pokemon I wanted to try on a new doubles/triples team: Mega Sceptile. I've been pretty hyped for him ever since he was released, not in the least because of Lightningrod. No matter how you turn it, a Lightningrod lead comes in rather handy when your Mat Block setter is OHKOed by opposing Jolteon and Electrode. Obviously, I'm not gonna be able to use him for the next couple of months. Instead, things for this new team were set in motion by turskain 's writeup for his current Triples team. Days after I had read his writeup, I had conceived a team i've really grown to love over the past battles.
Seriously, it was this easy all along. turskain's team capitalises on the Mat Block+Volt Switch combo, which effectively lets you choose your own middle lead, thus letting you take on a much, much wider array of opponents. He uses Rotom-W as Volt Switcher btw. When I read the words 'Volt Switch' in his writeup, I remembered there just happened to be a specific Volt Switcher with Lightningrod that just happened to be my favourite Mega Evolution (battlewise that is but w/e): Mega Manectric. The fact that there was an ongoing 2000 win streak with Manectric and Talonflame in the lead position didn't really dampen my spirits of course. The bench can probably still be improved significantly, but I don't think this lead trio can be made much better. Nothing, literally nothing is safe, this trio is all over the place. Their offensive synergy and combined coverage are absolutely amazing, Greninja and Talonflame hit all across the field with Dark Pulse and Brave Bird, whereas Manectric enormously cockblocks like half of the opposing leads that used to give my teams significant trouble and (usually) Volt Switches out to the appropriate breaker, only amplifying my potential coverage. Often I didn't even need Tailwind.
The first breaker I added was nobody other than everybody's favourite dinosaur. Ever since generation I he's been not great but 'decent', but unlike former titans such as Tauros and Steelix that are now horrid gutter trash, he's always remained 'decent'. Never a first choice - granted, for valid reasons - but throughout six generations he's always pulled his weight when you needed him to. This thing is good, dammit, give him some love, he really deserves it.
But first, why Nidoking? Frankly, I just needed something that could safely OHKO Electrode, Scarf Manectric, and Jolteon after Volt Switching out of them, i.e. something with a Ground move. Earthquake is really iffy if you're using a grounded lead without Protect, thus I turned to the next best thing - Earth Power - and the best Earth Power user I had in my boxes. However, Nidoking is exactly the kind of breaker this sort of team needs. He has jaw-dropping coverage, stupid power - honestly, you can't really argue with an effective 126 base SpA using a recoil-less Life Orb - and a very respectable defensive typing; on the other hand, he's quite frail and not that fast. Fortunately, there's a certain move that remedies that second point, and the first point isn't that relevant anymore if you simply murder everything first ^_^
Adding some obligatory physical attackers, not a bad idea if there's only one of those thus far. Azumarill was a really pleasant surprise; even under Tailwind, he hardly outspeeds anything, but he makes up for that by simply not leaving alive what he attacks. Azumarill didn't really turn out to be a breaker like Nidoking, he was more of an emergency nuke that could always take out a threatening foe. When facing Latios in an awkward position, simply click Protect on Nidoking and Play Rough on Azu. Also, he was a really valuable safety net against Trick Room, because then he 'outspeeds' most Pokemon even on those teams, and you don't really want to face a hyperspeed Azumarill. Garchomp on the other hand really disappointed. I mainly added him for his spread moves, i.e. Earthquake and Rock Slide, and good neutral coverage. However, he turned out to be the literal definition of dead weight. There was simply no opportunity to safely use Earthquake, and a 80BP STAB move with horrid super effective coverage simply doesn't cut it. Additionally, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sashchomp is a weak, pathetic piece of shit. With only 75BP and 80BP on his STAB moves he simply needs the power boost of a Life Orb - which Nidoking wasn't gonna give up until hell froze over - or Swords Dance, which I find too risky to set up in triples without Mat Block support. Moreover, while Dragon/Ground is fantastic neutral coverage, as super effective coverage it's just saddening, so I couldn't use a poor man's Life Orb, i.e. Expert Belt. Therefore, Garchomp had to go for a reliable, fast physical breaker with great super effective coverage. Did I have any of those? Duh.
It just had to be. Everything started with Blaziken, and precisely Blaziken turned out to be the missing piece of this team. Not in his Mega forme this time - Manectric ninja'd him on that one - but this time as Expert Belt Blaziken. On super effective hits, Expert Belt Blaziken is a tad stronger than Mega Blaze, and considering his great super effective coverage I could very well settle for that. Whilst Nidoking was my favourite breaker to Volt Switch into, Blaziken was amazing against Veterans, especially when I didn't have a chance to set up Tailwind.
The general playstyle was really simple: preferably, use Tailwind and Volt Switch to set up a situation where you can KO all three opposing leads on the second turn.
Oh, I'd almost forget the sets with additional comments and nicknames and stuff, and some replays ^_^ i'll also tell you how i was finally convinced to swap out Lum for Sash on Greninja.
By-Tor (Greninja) @ Lum Berry (was Focus Sash for the final couple of battles, when I finally caved after a narrow escape against lead Scarf Lando)
Ability: Protean
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/19/19/31/31/31
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Mat Block
-Dark Pulse
-Ice Beam
-Grass Knot
Mat Block Greninja does what Mat Block Greninja does. The moveset is generally considered to be the best one in terms of coverage, reliability, and utility (i.e. Dark Pulse hitting across the entire field). From my first ever battles in Doubles I ran a Lum Berry on Greninja instead of the more common Focus Sash, in order to have a safety net against status leads and because I have a plan against most of those few faster leads anyway. Only until 200+ battles in this streak I kept on using it - then I played a battle that convinced me that the situational safety net against status was less useful than a safety net against the even more situational yet more detrimental faster leads that target Greninja.
The Snow Dog (Manectric) @ Manectite
Ability: Lightningrod -> Intimidate
IVs: X/X/31/31/31/31
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Thunderbolt
-Flamethrower
-Volt Switch
-Protect
The moves should all be quite obvious. Protect is Protect, Volt Switch was quite useful for pulling off the Mat Block Volt Switch combo, and Thunderbolt is a reliable STAB move. The final slot was a tossup between HP Ice and Flamethrower (before you're all gonna scold me for the IVs, I have two Manectrics because I only learned to breed Hidden Powers after my first Manectric, and this isn't my HP Ice one.) As a matter of fact, at first I had HP Ice, but that one was only useful on supereffective targets, and it's not like Electric's neutral coverage is that divine. Moreover, with Greninja's Ice Beam and Azumarill in the back, it was not /that/ needed, and I didn't have a Fire move on my leads. Lightningrod was, aside from Volt Switch, pretty much the reason I added Manectric in the first place, and Intimidate is amazing as well; not only lowers it all opponents' attack, but it does more useful stuff, such as scouting for Sturdy on Regirock and popping White Herbs (!).
Bob (Talonflame) @ Sky Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe
-Brave Bird
-Tailwind
-Taunt
-Protect
Tailwind is useful for a Tailwind team, Protect is Protect, and Brave Bird is a nice n' powerful attacking move that hits across the entire field. I chose Taunt over Flare Blitz; this already stems from my previous team, where Talonflame's access to Taunt was the only reason I chose it as my new Tailwind setter, in order to let it stop Trick Room. While Flare Blitz obviously is a cool move, I'd go as far as to say that Taunt should be the default option on Talonflame, and that Flare Blitz should only be used if you can't fit a fire move on your leads otherwise. Seriously, this move stops so much shit it's not even funny. It not only stops Trick Room, but also completely poops on notorious, annoying foes such as Stockpile Lanturn, Confuse Ray/Double Team Regigigas, and every Swagger user ever. It was even more useful in my previous team because that had Bob in the middle so that he could Taunt every opponent on the field, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Whatever, in case of emergency, it's not like a lead TR setter on the left of the field survives being triple targeted.
Not the mama (Nidoking) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/X/31/31/X/31
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Sludge Bomb
-Earth Power
-Flamethrower
-Protect
Nidoking is an utter badass, wicked strong, and has amazing coverage. Apart from his STAB moves and Protect, the options are Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt; Flamethrower worked best for this team. The moveset is quite standard otherwise. Another benefit of Nidoking is a Toxic immunity (because fuck Cresselia2).
Counterproductive (Azumarill) @ Wide Lens (well that would be the nickname were it not for that damn character limit >.<)
Ability: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe (used to be a bellyjetter)
-Waterfall
-Play Rough
-Aqua Jet
-Superpower
A few conspicuous things. Firstly, no Protect. As I described in the teambuilding process, Azu is more an emergency nuke than a breaker - if it dies in a one-for-one trade with the most dangerous mon, it's done its job. Therefore it needed as much coverage as possible - Superpower came in really handy a couple of times. I have thought of EVing it to outspeed Latios under Tailwind, but I almost cried when I saw how much this would compromise its bulk (basically entirely, iirc i needed ~200 Spe to do this). And that bulk is not to be underestimated, this thing survived Raikou's Thunderbolt ^_^
As for the item, everybody knows that you can't really afford to miss a move if you want a long streak. 95% acc on a situational coverage move is alright - 90% on a STAB move is not. Therefore, Wide Lens is the only item Azu should be running in the maison (unless you want to leave out Play Rough lol). Iirc Aircraft Cemetery was the first one who came up with this :)
Blaziken @ Expert Belt
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Speed Boost
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/31/13/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Flare Blitz
-Low Kick
-Rock Slide
-Protect
If you're like me and always seem to end up running Blaziken in doubles/triples, use this set, seriously ^_^ Of course Blaziken needs dual STAB. Flare Blitz is a given, but the Fighting move is not that self-explanatory, took me some time to get it right. HJK is Blaze's standard Fighting STAB, but in the maison, and especially in doubles/triples, the yolo is a tad too strong in that one, seeing as you want consistency over power. Thus I first ended up running that other Fighting STAB move in Blaze's level up moveset, Sky Uppercut. That one has the benefit of not killing you, but still has the accuracy problem. Fortunately, Blaze gets Low Kick as an egg move, which I really would've liked to know on my first long runs of triples ;_; it outclasses SU so badly it's not even funny, being (nearly) as powerful in almost all relevant cases and a lot more powerful on some nifty targets (fuck you Regigigas), and, well, not missing ^_^ Protect is Protect and even more valuable on Blaziken because of Speed Boost, and Rock Slide is mostly filler. It provides some coverage for a few cases where Fire/Fighting doesn't work, and, not unimportantly, is a spread move. It's weak as shit but can occasionally finish off multiple opponents. The accuracy is kinda bleh and I never really use it, but it's not like Blaziken has anything better to run in that slot.
50: EQHG-WWWW-WWW9-MUGG Chatelaine battle
100: 5AQW-WWWW-WWW9-MUZF Look at it. Just look at it. What else is this than a well-oiled clockwork?
145: G9MG-WWWW-WWW9-MUHY Another battle that showcases how this team should be playing.
150: ZEEW-WWWW-WWW9-MUKL Trick Room went up :S Azumarill's huge power and Skuntank's suicidal tendencies saved me.
183: 6XVG-WWWW-WWW9-MUHW This one is hilarious. Scarf Manectric locks itself into Thunder against a Lightningrod opponent. Didn't really feel the need to Mega Evolve here. (And the hax wasn't in my advantage lol, dead weight should remain alive as long as possible)
227: DTAW-WWWW-WWW9-MUKF see below
233: WEKG-WWWW-WWW9-MUG5 rip
I had broken my old record, I had surpassed the person above me on the leaderboards, and I was steadily cruising on. Then a Veteran appeared. She led off with Moltres, Landorus, and Registeel. Judging by the trainer lists this /could/ be Scarf Lando, but it also could be not. I take my chances and click Mat Block on Greninja, because that Lando never seems to appear anyway and switching out gives other problems. As I always do, I let Manectric use Volt Switch on Moltres - I know it almost kills it, leaving it to be easily picked off on the next turn - and Bob sets up Tailwind. Surprise, it was Scarf Lando. Down goes By-Tor, and the Snow Dog Volt Switches out of Moltres. My gut tells me Moltres has clicked a Fire-type move - because Lando was killing Ninja anyway and he's not gonna target Manectric with a resisted move - so I send in Blaziken. Surprise, Sky Attack. whoops. that's what I get for assuming the AI thinks (and for not running Sash on Greninja lol). Registeel Curses, but I hardly notice. 2-0 down against a Veteran but at least I got my Tailwind up >.<. Anyway, I send in Azumarill - because Lando must be killed and he's the only one who can easily do that in By-Tor's and Blaze's unfortunate absence - and Not The Mama, because I need a breaker with wide coverage and the Snow Dog is not gonna do much against Lando and Registeel. Anyway, I'm first next turn, so I let Bob finish off Moltres - not gonna let Azu do that because fuck Flame Body hax - and then Nidoking dents Registeel, taking half its health. Landorus then fires off his not very effective Focus Blast against Bob, only to be viciously killed by Azumarill. Registeel then Iron Heads Bob, does bugger but you gotta do something to feel useful. I then get my smartassery of sending out three Focus Blast resists boomeranged back into my face, because the AI sends out two Electric-types - Raikou and Zapdos - sending a disheartening pallour over Azumarill's and Talonflame's faces. Seeing as I can't kill both and most Raikou carry Shuca Berries, I double target Raikou with Aqua Jet and Earth Power. I let Bob use Protect, because a snowball's chance in hell to dodge that Zapdos's attack is better than launching a Brave Bird that's not gonna touch anything anyway. Surprisingly, this works. Raikou is dead and Bob succesfully lured in Zapdos's attack. Unfortunately, Registeel ChestoRests itself back to full health. well what do you know, i've taken the lead. Out comes Cobalion. The obvious thing to do is kill it with Not The Mama's Earth Power; I let Azu attack Zapdos with Aqua Jet just in case he'd get killed first otherwise, and I let Bob Taunt Registeel, because Brave Bird is not gonna do anything against Zapdos and Registeel lol. Cobalion dies; so does Bob, falling to Charge Beam, but Taunt was succesful, as Registeel lets out some curses because of its unability to use Curse (i'm so hilarious >.<). Good job Bob, that was all you could do, let the Snow Dog take it over. Anyway, even at +1 Zapdos2 is kinda weak (didn't even OHKO Azu with Charge Beam) and Registeel was just Earth Power fodder now, so my three dudes easily overwhelmed her two dudes. I then decide not to play with fate anymore and finally swap out Lum for Sash. Greninja carried it for a glorious five battles :S
Oh yeah, my loss. Quite a confusing one - I had a Psychic opponent, led off with Spiritomb, Mime and Starmie. I can kill Tomb with Azu, Mime with Bob and Starmie with Ninja, so I Volt Switch out to Azu and Taunt Tomb because fuck WoW. However, Mime uses Light Screen, meaning I can't OHKO Starmie with Grass Knot/Dark Pulse anymore. Not a problem, Mime is not a threat, so Bob and By-Tor team up on Starmie, as Azu kills Tomb. Out came Alakazam and Reuniclus. I have to team up on Zam again, giving Mime room to set up another screen. Then came Dusknoir, who set up Trick Room. I had beaten TR before, I led 3-0, but no matter how hard I hit them, they just didn't die, and seeing as my mons were already kinda weakened, it ended. Not fun using two non-slow Psychic-weak mons against Reuniclus under TR. My memory is a little hazy here because I don't like remembering this battle ;_; but i probably misplayed like a lot, what was that Starmie really gonna do?
Now for a few closing thoughts now I've had the three hours of writing this post for letting all this sink in. I'm still quite confused. In case you hadn't gotten the vibe, I **love** this team. Maybe it isn't amazing qualitatively, but it's just my baby. It uses a ton of mons that I love or at least respect, but the way it plays is just so much fun - as i stated in a previous post, it's nimble :) This post is more of a team showcase than a streak post, because, well, the streak isn't really that special for triples standards (guess that also doesn't really warrant a team showcase altogether, but w/e). I'm really glad this team beat my previous record, because it's not only a lot more fun to play with, it's also infinitely better than my previous team - but as with all things you love, you want to see them succeed, so I'm kinda devastated it still didn't get /that/ far. Can it get farther? Yes, definitely. One thing I've noticed while playing this team is that it really requires a good knowledge of the battle maison sets, where the custap berries are (lol), how much damage every attack does on a specific target, how the AI thinks, etc. There's just less room for errors. I do have some knowledge in this regard, otherwise i probably wouldn't even have made it to 100, but I pale in comparison to the other guys in this thread, who probably would've gotten farther. I may try again once I'm up to it, practice makes perfect :)
And, well, I still remember how I lost three times in the 160s with my previous team and consciously gave up on the Starf Berry. Now, two months later, I've broken 200 in three different formats (rotation obv, and iirc I've also mentioned something about my singles streak. Last time I mentioned I was somewhere in the 200s - atm I'm, well, not. A post will follow in due time.) Half a year ago, I would've been happy with just one trophy - if you had told me back then I'd get three 200+ streaks, I would've thought you were ridiculing me ^_^
(always taking suggestions of course, nidoking has had his five minutes of fame now ^_^)
Two more things: I see that we have decided to combine Durant streaks with all other streaks. I didn't agree even back when I was at 0, but also didn't want to pipe up as a non-Durant user to say "don't combine them! no..." because it would seem a bit self-serving. Now, I have room to talk, if I were ever going to, because the record I have surpasses the best Durant record. To take this one step further—yes, I'd have the *most* room to talk if I had made my streak with a Durant team myself and were still "noble" enough to say "don't combine them", but I've never used Durant so I can't speak from that perspective with a #1 streak that's a Durant streak.
To take it one last step further, though...I want you all to consider something. What if VaporeonIce hadn't faced Volcarona4 at battle 1,175? (Wow, it just occurred to me that it busted the previous #1 and #2 streaks, what a bitch...) What if he got to 1,300, 1,400? 1,700? Would you all still feel the same way about it not being as good as it was last gen? And, if I may...what if I used Durant? And got to 1,200? 1,500? 1,700? How would you all feel then?
The answer *should be* that you'd feel the same way about it, right? I don't think that would be the case in practice, though. If someone were to break out a huge streak with Trick or Entrainment, I think your collective tune would change (those of you who were "pro combine" that is). Obviously, I don't super care now (I may if I'd lost with my goodstuffs team, lol), but I'd be a hypocrite to not say something regardless.
I've been taking a big break from the thread for my mental health (I've gotten super busy in real life lately). I sent Jumpman a congrats PM and didn't read this post until today, but figured I should respond to it publicly, since it's a point of contention about a strategy I used. Note that this is all entirely my opinion, and others are welcome to disagree with it. I'm offering another perspective for people to consider, rather than trying to suggest that the thread "should go" a certain way.
Durant is clearly insanely good when used properly, no doubt about that. That said, as an AI exploitation strategy, I think the team only becomes "flawless" in the way I used it. We've theorymonned pretty extensively (and by "we," I mostly mean turskain , and I'm relatively confident that no other "pure Durant" (that is, using Durant to set up a single sweeper intended to get to perfect set-up) strategy can approach the level of success my team had. From what I remember, the Gen 5 argument was "it doesn't matter what your sweeper is, the thing that makes you win is Durant." And while Durant clearly makes you win, it's obviously a lot more complicated than that. Certain threats can throw a wrench in the whole thing, and it's a very delicate balance. Was this true in Gen 5 as well? Probably. NoCheese used Durant as one tool in a team that was precisely planned to answer for Durant's weaknesses (and they are numerous).
Are Durant teams qualitatively different from non-Durant teams? Absolutely. But so are Aron teams in Doubles/Triples, and the top Aron team in Doubles is more than three times the top non-Aron team. I don't think it's a reason for segregating the lists. It's just a strategy that, done right, works extremely well. The same is true of Trick in Gen 4, but Trick was way more dominant. (I fully realize that Singles is Jumpman's baby, and it may be that if he cared about Doubles, he'd argue for separating Aron as well. I'm not trying to say Jumpman's argument is inconsistent because he didn't talk about Aron; I have no idea what he thinks about Aron.)
I think Whimsicott/Durant/Drapion can hit the numbers Jumpman talked about. Someday far down the line, I hope to prove that it can. I realize it's also entirely self-serving for me to not want to segregate the lists. But I'm having a hard time seeing where the line is drawn. If Whimsicott/Durant/Drapion is the only Durant team that can beat the current top three goodstuffs teams, then is Durant by itself the problem? Or does Whimsicott/Durant/Drapion get its own list? Clearly, Durant can still be as good (or better) than it was last gen. My failed Smeargle team was designed specifically to prove that. But Durant needs a lot of help, and it definitely needs good partners. I can't say whether there isn't more Durant on the lists because most other Durant teams aren't as good, or if it's just because of its reputation as a n00b strategy that keeps people from exploring it, but my general opinion is that it's the former. I'm willing to be wrong in this, but I think I'd need more evidence of a wide variety of Durant teams overwhelming goodstuffs teams before I could come to the conclusion that Durant is separation-worthy.
I will openly admit that Jumpman is way better at the Maison/Subway/Tower than I am. I would be completely arrogant to say otherwise. And if people want to separate Durant out, I'm happy to defer to the judgment of the Smogon community on that (though I'll probably still keep chasing big streaks with the strategy, because I like having big Maison numbers on my cart). Ultimately, it's a value judgment against what degree of AI manipulation is legitimate. If we reach Gen 4 levels of dominance with super AI exploitation teams, I might start to change my mind; it seems like Trick's dominance stifled people's creativity to try anything else. But it almost seems like it's been the opposite lately. turksain and StarKO only had one overlapping mon, and they're both right around 1000. That's totally awesome. GG Unit is building a great streak with a freaking Glalie; how cool is that? I think that having one list sparsely populated by me, NoCheese, GG Unit, and a bunch of "Durant + 2 good sweepers with mediocre synergy" teams that sit at 200-300 would stifle people's creativity a little bit. Of course, I could be entirely wrong. Time will tell, and I'm totally open to other people's opinions about it.
And now, unfortunately, I have to retreat into anonymity for the sake of actually getting things done. But whatever people decide, I hope they keep coming up with new and interesting strategies.
I lost battle 538 with my freaking Glalie for a streak of 537. It was such a dumb mistake, but I'll upload the video when I get back home. The lead was Terrakion 3 and when I was setting up Glalie I had to abruptly attend to some real-world business in the middle of the battle. When I got back I saw that I was without a Sub and the last move I used was Taunt. Usually that means something had just broken my Sub the turn prior, so I reflexively used Substitute again, but I forgot that I had been trying to save Substitute PP because Sacred Sword ignores evasion modifiers. Being at +1 Speed or more after a dozen turns of boosts or having Terrakion miss the 60% accurate Sacred Sword would've saved me, but that was 100% neglect on my part. I probably could have counted up PP and worked backward to figure out if I should have Protected that turn, or even used Protect regardless because I could have tried to double Protect if it was actually was a loafing turn. Either way, that's what I get for trying to squeeze in a few battles over lunch.
Either way, this team is definitely capable of much better than the streaks it's gotten. I was hoping this streak would place Glalie as at least the highest-ranked Ice Pokemon in the Maison, but that'll have to happen another day. Can't be in too much of a hurry when using these Pokemon.
The Dutch Plumberjack, nice! I like seeing Nidoking, it's definitely not easy to fit on a team.
Suggestions-wise, Trick Room from Psychics who most often carry it seems like the biggest threat. With Nidoking/Blaziken sharing weaknesses to Ground, Water and Psychic while being frail and fast enough to get jumped on under TR, in addition to Greninja's TR weakness and Mega Manectric being so fast (and also frail), you only have two Pokémon that can fully function under TR: Talonflame and Azumarill. Taunt Talonflame stops a lot of the setters and Mega Manectric can kill Slowking/Slowbro leads, but there's always going to be battles where you have multiple TR setters or other threats, TR + Fake Out, or some other circumstances that allow it to go up anyway. To solve it, I'm not really sure where to go - removing Blaziken is a start, since the Ground-typing provided by Nidoking is more important out of the two. The biggest common TR users that slam Nidoking in a bad way are Slowking, Slowbro, Exeggutor and Bronzong (252+ Zen Headbutt on a super-effective hit is no joke), so something that does well against those could be it. I'm short on ideas, though.
Also, the Volt Switch center was done first by ~Mercury~ on his Mega Manectric - he didn't talk about it much in his write-up (and it works a bit differently for that team, I presume), but his Manectric is the reason I started using Electric-type centers with Volt Switch.
GG Unit, nice! I thought Moody wasn't that good, but I've been wrong on Durant-related matters before. It seems both you and VaporeonIce lost slow-setup Durant streaks to the same mistake - losing track of the battle state and forgetting to use Protect. That might be the single biggest threat to these 21-turn Acupressure set-ups or infinity-turn Moody fests in the end - with tens of thousands of turns of Protect/Sub/Taunt/Miracle Eye cycling over a long streak, a misclick or a brain fart is going to happen sooner or later (though Drapion and bulky Moody users have an advantage here, as a single mistake often has a good chance of not being fatal).
I've also gotten in bad situations due to taking a break mid-battle and coming back afterwards - to cope with it, I try to suspend the 3DS right after inputting commands before the turn plays out if possible, so that when I come back I can see how the turn plays out and get back on track.
I still think mixed Octillery with Water Spout/Bullet Seed/SubProtect has potential as a Moody sweeper - 48PP on Bullet Seed should be enough to outlast Lati@s's Recover PP when setting up on them even with Truant conserving it (and Spout should kill anything that shows up as 2nd/3rd Pokémon). Dragon Pulse + Mist Ball/Luster Purge + 6x Calm Mind + Recover is 31 PP in total, which will take 62 turns to stall out with Truant - you can use 45 of your Bullet Seed PP, Sub/Protect as usual and still a couple of PP left in the tank for all moves. I could never have the patience to try it, though - the 300-ish wins with Drapion/Mega Gyarados and a dozen battles with Durant/Gyarados/Drapion got me a lifetime's worth of exposure to super-slow teams already. Major kudos to you for surviving over 800 battles of Moody at this point, with your previous 332-win streak and now this one.
Is the Glalie the exact same as before? I see it's male, unlike the old one which was female, and you mentioned the EV spread possibly being unoptimal.
VaporeonIce, I think you're giving me a bit too much credit. I did some theorymon and claimed Durant was dead, but the big new ideas and actually getting successful streaks with it are all on you and GG Unit. I read some of the earlier posts in the thread recently, and found out that a primitive Durant/Drapion (with Knock Off and a 252 Atk EV spread - still not a winning one, but closer than I'd gotten) had already been used before Pokebank even came out: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/battle-maison-discussion-records.3492706/page-8#post-4946208
Regarding the Durant merge, I'd be pretty bummed if I lost my #3 spot to Durant, but well, that's the leaderboards for you. If you got a high enough streak to get Durant banished to its own leaderboard, that'd be an accomplishment in its own right - "getting Durant its leaderboard back with a streak that can't be beaten by anything else" was the goal I had in mind when trying it out, and I wasn't very succesful. Maybe you could do it with a 2000-win streak (if Jumpman isn't already going to 2000 wins with his current streak, which seems all too possible). Treating the rules like this sounds a bit dumb, but the allure of making a Durant streak big enough to get Durant banished to its own leaderboard is quite strong.
Regarding TR+Aron, I previously posted saying it deserved its own Doubles leaderboard (in the Charizard/Greninja Doubles streak post), but I've since changed my mind. I underestimated goodstuffs, and I think 1000+ in Maison Doubles is possible both with and without Aron. I may be talking out of my ass since I've only got 554 wins, but I definitely think the possibility exists with stronger teams.
Here's another shark fact: throughout human history, numerous mid-air collisions between sharks and airplanes have been recorded. Not once has the airplane won the duel - sharks simply can't be stopped, even if they're outside their usual habitat. Even spacecraft are not safe from shark attacks, as they have the acceleration needed to get out of orbit and their thick skin enables them to survive orbital re-entry without a scratch.
252+ Atk Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-186 (100.6 - 120%)
252+ SpA Delphox Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Sharpedo: 166-196 (127.6 - 150.7%)
I've updated through here, so please let me know if I've missed anything! GG Unit, I've added your new streak, but do please add the proof video when you can.
On the subject of Durant streaks, right now, I don't see any reason to exile them to a separate list. While it's definitely easy to build a "decent" Durant team, designing a "top performing" one is no joke (as shown by the extensive theorymoning and trial and error concerning various builds, and the long time it took to get Durant to 1000), so it doesn't feel like it makes for unfair competition. Indeed, at present, good stuff teams are keeping up nicely, so it doesn't appear that Durant has really "broken" the Maison. Plus, the most reliable Durant teams are very slow, given the huge amount of time needed to set up Accupressure Drapion, which is something of a natural check. "Time remains the great equalizer in the Subway" is an old Jumpman16 line that really stuck with me, and it applies equally well in the Maison.
There's also the slippery slope issue. If Durant isn't acceptable, what about level 1 Aron? Some strategies take advantage of predictable failings in the AI's play more than others, but all teams take advantage of this to some degree, and drawing a clean line on what's "excessively" unfair is difficult. So long as the leaderboard isn't clearly dominated by Durant, I think it can stay. As far as recognition goes, one of the nice things about the lengthy writeups most of us prepare (and the discussion that tends to follow) is that creative or unusual teams still get a lot of appreciation, even if their total streak length falls short of the top few spots. So I don't think that Durant is driving people away from trying creative teams, or siphoning off credit from people building teams using other strategies.
I don't want to go against the views of most players on this, so if there's some huge groundswell of anti-Durant feelings, please let me know, but at the moment, I don't think we need to change things. (Full disclosure: I have a Durant team pretty high on the leaderboard, but I think I'm still looking at things objectively here!)
The set doesn't have a set-up move, which will leave you with zero real sweepers. How about using Dragon Dance over Fire Punch with Dragon Claw as your sole attacking move, like the Dragonite used on my Rotations team? You won't get perfect coverage with Fairies walling it, but those are difficult for a Dragon to set up on anyway and "easy to check" - Gliscor outspeeds and beats all of them on its own already, unless it has to switch in to a crit. FP would be useful for those bulky Grass-types you mention, though. How about HP Fire over Sleep Talk on Milotic? Sounds gimmicky, sure, but it would kill Ferrothorn and Sleep Talk is something of a "do nothing" move anyway - and other Grass types should fall to the muscle of Dragon Claw.
Thanks for the input. I was pretty hesitant to drop the setup move. Although I was finding in later battles as the Maison threw more 'counter' teams at me was that I just couldn't set up safely or get a sweep going until the opposing team was mostly under 50%, where boosted attacks aren't really necessary. It might not be the same for Charizard, since he has an immunity and I can cover all his weaknesses in either form. HP Fire on Milotic is interesting, I tried a similar thing once using Slowbro with Fire Blast/Flamethrower. Here's some calcs for my Milotic vs Ferrothorn:
0 SpA Milotic Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 64-76 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Milotic: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
I'm not even sure the old Hidden Power would be enough to make this work :( Might try a mixed Charizard (with more offensive EVs, will test with and without about Dragon Dance) in the short-run, after I finish MM breeding this shiny Nidoran.
Thanks for the input. I was pretty hesitant to drop the setup move. Although I was finding in later battles as the Maison threw more 'counter' teams at me was that I just couldn't set up safely or get a sweep going until the opposing team was mostly under 50%, where boosted attacks aren't really necessary. It might not be the same for Charizard, since he has an immunity and I can cover all his weaknesses in either form. HP Fire on Milotic is interesting, I tried a similar thing once using Slowbro with Fire Blast/Flamethrower. Here's some calcs for my Milotic vs Ferrothorn:
0 SpA Milotic Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 64-76 (35.3 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Milotic: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
I'm not even sure the old Hidden Power would be enough to make this work :( Might try a mixed Charizard (with more offensive EVs, will test with and without about Dragon Dance) in the short-run, after I finish MM breeding this shiny Nidoran.
All of these appear after Battle 1-40 (Ferrothorn1-3 only on Ace Trainer Bunny, Ferrothorn1 on Worker Rasmus), and none of them can Curse up enough to threaten Milotic before they fall to HP Fire (except for Ferrothorn3 CH Explosion, but as it only appears on 1 trainer out of 100 and is walled by your Ferrothorn, it shouldn't be an issue).
I'm currently at a streak of 234. All I can say so far? I'm not even trying. Dragonite just seems to never ever ever die. I hardly ever need to use Mega Absol, but it manages to hold the team together the few times I do need to, like against stuff with Roar/Whirlwind, Espeon leads, and *cough* Mismagius4 *cough.* Like, I thought Mega Absol would be rubbish in Battle Maison since it has nonexistent bulk, but it's been performing far better than I expected it to (even with Sucker Punch's unreliability.) However, I did learn that if the opponent can OHKO Mega Absol, I really shouldn't Swords Dance on turn 1 expecting them to go for Thunder Wave or something. Whoops, I'm an idiot. I'll put up a proof image / losing video once my team actually loses, then after that... I dunno, maybe make a not-Durant team?
Anyway, more replays. Tried to get more Mega Absol action in this batch:
#128: TSAG-WWWW-WWW9-N2M6 - Breloom annoys me sometimes
#147: E42W-WWWW-WWW9-N2M8 - Why didn't I go for Swords Dance as Skarmory went for the obvious Whirlwind? Would have made it much easier to win this one.
#162: VQHW-WWWW-WWW9-N2MA - Detect: 1; High Jump Kick: 0
#192: 3BAW-WWWW-WWW9-N2ML - I have no idea what in the world was going through my brain here. In other news, Absol actually manages to survive something.
#221: BG4W-WWWW-WWW9-N2N5 - Detect: 2; High Jump Kick: 0. Seriously, Mienshao.
#231: GN5W-WWWW-WWW9-N2NA - We meet again, Mismagius4.
GG Unit, nice! I thought Moody wasn't that good, but I've been wrong on Durant-related matters before. It seems both you and VaporeonIce lost slow-setup Durant streaks to the same mistake - losing track of the battle state and forgetting to use Protect. That might be the single biggest threat to these 21-turn Acupressure set-ups or infinity-turn Moody fests in the end - with tens of thousands of turns of Protect/Sub/Taunt/Miracle Eye cycling over a long streak, a misclick or a brain fart is going to happen sooner or later (though Drapion and bulky Moody users have an advantage here, as a single mistake often has a good chance of not being fatal).
I've also gotten in bad situations due to taking a break mid-battle and coming back afterwards - to cope with it, I try to suspend the 3DS right after inputting commands before the turn plays out if possible, so that when I come back I can see how the turn plays out and get back on track.
I still think mixed Octillery with Water Spout/Bullet Seed/SubProtect has potential as a Moody sweeper - 48PP on Bullet Seed should be enough to outlast Lati@s's Recover PP when setting up on them even with Truant conserving it (and Spout should kill anything that shows up as 2nd/3rd Pokémon). Dragon Pulse + Mist Ball/Luster Purge + 6x Calm Mind + Recover is 31 PP in total, which will take 62 turns to stall out with Truant - you can use 45 of your Bullet Seed PP, Sub/Protect as usual and still a couple of PP left in the tank for all moves. I could never have the patience to try it, though - the 300-ish wins with Drapion/Mega Gyarados and a dozen battles with Durant/Gyarados/Drapion got me a lifetime's worth of exposure to super-slow teams already. Major kudos to you for surviving over 800 battles of Moody at this point, with your previous 332-win streak and now this one.
Is the Glalie the exact same as before? I see it's male, unlike the old one which was female, and you mentioned the EV spread possibly being unoptimal.
NoCheese and everyone else, here's the battle code: BXTG-WWWW-WWW9-N28V
Glalie did get re-bred. It's male for the Pyroar thing you mentioned, and I re-did the EVs. Level 50 stats are now 177/87/111/109/101/134. HP is the same Leftovers number. The Speed is dropped down to beat +Speed 130s at +1 and Blaziken 4 after an equal number of Speed Boosts. Defense allows its Sub to survive a Technician Bullet Punch from Scizor4 100% of the time at +5 Defense, and just dumped the rest into Special Attack (with enough left over for a bonus Special Defense point). Too bad it wasn't the same Glalie all along, otherwise I'd have to put it forward as the Pokemon that's KOed the most Super Singles opponents. Durant getting the sweet revenge kill on Terrakion in that loss might be the 2nd thing it's ever KOed besides lead Espeons and Exeggutors.
Also am soliciting offers from anyone who actually likes doing the Super Training crap to max out my level 1 Sableye's Special Defense EVs so the Download Porygons boost Attack instead of Special Attack. This hasn't mattered yet, but hey it could help. I obviously have enough spare BP lying around to make it worth your while haha
Glalie is the bulkiest Moody Pokemon statwise, which has served it very well; that Terrakion had used Swords Dance a time or two, so Sacred Sword was going to be fatal against just about anything. Being weak to the only two viable moves that ignore evasion could be one of the worst things about Glalie though. I have a battle I forgot to save where a 2nd Pokemon Sturdy Donphan4 got back to back Quick Claw hits with Stone Edge (against +6 Evasion) and Fissure, but Stone Edge didn't break the Sub so it was all good. It rarely has to take any health damage because of the things its sub survives with boosted defenses from 2nd/3rd Pokemon. Any non-STAB + super effective move that can break its sub without a crit will have major drawbacks like Superpower, Overheat, Focus Blast, etc.
The main problem with Octillery is that two attacking moves allow for only 30-something turns of stalling before you have to KO the lead. That's not enough turns to guarantee decent boosts over hundreds of battles, and it'd eventually lose due to being at negative accuracy and missing too often or something like that. In fact, Glalie has been in over 40 turns in my current battle and has missed 2 Taunts in a row, but since it's happening against a Truant lead which can't do anything back it doesn't matter. With Glalie/Smeargle, you can mess around for those 30-40 turns to get the good boosts and still have plenty of Sub/Protect PP to stall against a troublesome 2nd or 3rd opponent.
Lastly, Durant isn't good enough to be in its own category this generation. Bulky teams are better than they've ever been for quite a few reasons, most notably:
1. Mega Kangaskhan. In addition to all the other great things, bypassing Sturdy/Sash is so huge that it would have been a worse Pokemon for the Maison if it had gotten Huge Power instead of Parental Bond.
2. Critical hit nerf. There used to be so many Pokemon in the Subway/Frontier that were fast and hard-hitting enough to OHKO pretty much any viable Pokemon with a 2x crit, essentially invalidating set-up from anything that couldn't boost its speed or afford to be a mono-attacker with Sub. Now, something like Suicune can survive a CH Thunderbolt from Manectric4 after setting up.
3. No more trainer classes that double and triple down on hax items and OHKO moves
Adamant Zoroark I like your team, Mega Absol is a cool way to deal with status abusers. When I tried TruAnt back in the Subway I tried Espeon for it's Magic Bounce but couldn't get it to work (I also sucked back then lol), I guess Absol is much better at it.
I thought Heatran might give you trouble but at +6 Dragonite 2hko's all of them and they can't do much back except maybe burn you, and Absol ohko's at +4 or higher with Sucker Punch (providing they attack you, Heatran2 can Will-o-Wisp then avoids the ohko and ko's back with Overheat). Of course they aren't a problem if they are the lead because you can Entrain them...
Any reason for Detect over Protect on Absol? The only Impison+Protect user is Mismagius1 which you won't see from now on anyway (does Magic Bounce reflect Imprison? Because then you could stop it from using it's own Protect lol). Detect only has 8pp max, I know you only need 3pp to get your Swords Dances in but the extra PP might be helpful sometime
Adamant Zoroark I like your team, Mega Absol is a cool way to deal with status abusers. When I tried TruAnt back in the Subway I tried Espeon for it's Magic Bounce but couldn't get it to work (I also sucked back then lol), I guess Absol is much better at it.
I thought Heatran might give you trouble but at +6 Dragonite 2hko's all of them and they can't do much back except maybe burn you, and Absol ohko's at +4 or higher with Sucker Punch (providing they attack you, Heatran2 can Will-o-Wisp then avoids the ohko and ko's back with Overheat). Of course they aren't a problem if they are the lead because you can Entrain them...
Any reason for Detect over Protect on Absol? The only Impison+Protect user is Mismagius1 which you won't see from now on anyway (does Magic Bounce reflect Imprison? Because then you could stop it from using it's own Protect lol). Detect only has 8pp max, I know you only need 3pp to get your Swords Dances in but the extra PP might be helpful sometime
Detect was actually just in case I saw Mismagius1 early on. This far along, it doesn't really matter, you're right, but it was just an extra precaution just for that. The low PP doesn't matter much anyway since I only need to use 3 of them to get all of my Swords Dances, and after that it doesn't even matter at all (except for those fun Detect shenanigans on High Jump Kicks, lol, but I'll usually have at least one Detect left over for that.) Magic Bounce does not reflect Imprison as far as I know. Besides, it isn't reflected by Magic Coat, so judging by that logic I don't think Magic Bounce would reflect it.
Detect was actually just in case I saw Mismagius1 early on. This far along, it doesn't really matter, you're right, but it was just an extra precaution just for that. The low PP doesn't matter much anyway since I only need to use 3 of them to get all of my Swords Dances, and after that it doesn't even matter at all (except for those fun Detect shenanigans on High Jump Kicks, lol, but I'll usually have at least one Detect left over for that.) Magic Bounce does not reflect Imprison as far as I know. Besides, it isn't reflected by Magic Coat, so judging by that logic I don't think Magic Bounce would reflect it.
By 'Detect shenanigans on High Jump Kick' do you mean making them crash and hurt themselves? Protect does the same thing. Maybe I'm missing something here... Once your streak gets longer I would be concerned about Play Rough missing and costing you Absol (especially against fighting types). Have you considered Hone Claws over Swords Dance? The set up will take longer (reason for Protect over Detect) and +6 accuracy may seem like overkill but you don't have to worry about Play Rough's accuracy as well as not having to worry about Bright Power/Lax Incense. Just an idea
