Battle Maison Discussion & Records

Lumari

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My final ongoing streak is dead too. About freaking time considering it's been running since April lol. Posting a 330 win streak in Super Singles.
ok, as unimaginative and hilariously poorly built my team is and although everybody knows what I was using and despite my heavily ambiguous feelings towards it, I'm gonna repost it anyway because that's what people do in this kind of posts. I'm also gonna post a more detailed 'teambuilding' process and some additional insights I've gained along the way, because there's nothing of the sort in my introduction post and my five trophies post (the other ones where I posted the sets).


Skippy (Kangaskhan) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy -> Parental Bond
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/10/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Power-Up Punch
-Return
-Sucker Punch
-Earthquake


Zar'roc (Aegislash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Nature: Brave
IVs: 31/31/31/6/31/13
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
-King's Shield
-Swords Dance
-Shadow Sneak
-Sacred Sword


Glaedr (Dragonite) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/18/31/31
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw Outrage
-Extreme Speed
-Earthquake


Why did I use these Pokemon? Quite frankly, because I was left so pissed after losing a streak with Cloyster/Scarf Chandelure/Mega Venusaur at battle 49 in a battle with a really unlucky matchup and, more importantly, some extremely hideous chokes (e.g. using Sludge Bomb against a Chesnaught that I knew was Bulletproof because it had switched in on Shadow Ball... yeah...) that I simply threw together the most overpowered team possible in order to restore that streak as quickly as possible. I had held off on using Khan to get the singles trophy because I kinda wanted to win it with a less broken team (I just find it more fun that way, that's all - but yeah, tbf I also didn't like the idea of having to resort to brokemons in order to win the trophy, but at this point I didn't really care anymore. Plan A was general goodstuff, plan B was Cloyster, plan C was Khan, plan D was Durant); anyway, according to a weird bit of desperate logic, if I were to get back to 49 using a Khan team and then win battles 49 and 50 with the Cloyster team, I would have won battles 1-50 with the Cloyster team and thus deserved the trophy without using Khan. Right. And so it happened.
Anyway, after winning that trophy, I hardly did anything in singles because I still had to win the rotations trophy and, simply put, doubles/triples were a lot more fun. If I did anything in singles, it was ~5 battles between attempts in a different format, using this team over the Cloyster one because I had been adjusting Venusaur's moveset for wifi and I honestly didn't care. (unluckily I had found serebiiforums' maison thread before this one, and that one was flooded with a lot of defeatist crap and the traditional stupid unfounded allegations against the AI, such as antiteaming of course - one guy even went so far as to say the only way to win the trophy was to rotate teams, in order to throw off said antiteaming. I found all this quite disturbing, but rationally I didn't really believe it, especially after I had already won my first three trophies - I mean, if that were true I honestly would've expected to run into more than two thunder wave leads with my Cloyster team in those fifty battles, and, with my current experience, more than one Terrakion lead in 300+ battles with lead Khan - however, I figured 'better safe than sorry', and seeing as I didn't want to rotate teams within one streak I figured challenging different formats and thus using different teams anyway would be sufficient to throw the AI off its balance. I stopped doing this because it got tedious when I started focusing on (moderately) long streaks rather than just trophies, and guess what, it hadn't made any difference at all lol. Ugh, guess I would've been playing singles a lot more open-minded and with a lot more fun if I had found this thread first. Oh, just to make myself clear, I'm not bashing Serebii here, just the mentality of some guys in their maison thread lol.) Because of lack of enjoyment and too many cheap AI strategies I pretty much abandoned singles otherwise. (my perspective here was kinda warped because of the serebii thread, it honestly isn't any worse than in the other formats, it's just that they work less well in doubles/triples. I also remember writing here in my first post that I hated singles, that's honestly not true, but it took me playing in Platinum with Suizomence and a newfound open mind to remember that. Singles are cool.) However, just before I finally won my fifth trophy, I was at ~75 and I continued to 100 because I thought having 100 straight wins in every format not named multi would look rather sexy. Some time later, I was bored and continued to ~150, and because of the godawful teambuilding and synergy (more of that later) I was rather surprised I hadn't lost yet, and at this point it would be a waste of a potentially decent streak to still leave it abandoned. I then continued it on a semi-regular basis (because other stuff was still more fun - i.e. Platinum and especially triples, lol if I hadn't conceived team Clockwork Angels I probably would've posted this weeks sooner), and here I am.

About the teambuilding, there honestly wasn't any. After losing with Cloyster, I thought 'k, so lead Khan because I'm not gonna waste more time than I need to, and what are some other powerful singles mons? Aegislash and Dragonite, k, let's go' and thus this 'team' was born. I hadn't paid any attention at all to synergy and whatnot. This was not a team, this was three egocentric strikers thrown together. It was three physical attackers with no protection against status bar a single Lum Berry, for crying out loud. The irony of having Zar'roc and Glaedr on the same team is so damn real lol.
However, during the streak it became apparent that the team happened to have the defensive synergy it needed. Aegislash could take strong Fighting-type attacks for Khan (I kinda lied a few lines back, this much I did take into consideration when building, but that's frankly all), Dragonite could take Ground- and Fire-type attacks for Aegislash (also cool for popping White Herbs) and Aegislash could take Rock-, Dragon-, and Ice-type attacks for Dragonite. Still, some weaknesses weren't covered and Fighting-types with EdgeQuake coverage were kinda shit, but this defensive synergy honestly isn't half bad, right? About status users, despite the notion I had planted in my head, in hindsight there weren't really more than one/two status leads every ten battles, and I think I usually just utterly destroyed them... And anyway, confusion can be switched around, a poisoned Khan isn't really a problem, a paralysed Khan still has that monstrous +2 Sucker Punch, and a burned Khan still is ridiculously powerful when set up considering one PuP negates the burn attack drop (people tend to forget this I guess, I mean I know it's annoying and pressuring and all, but I honestly got rather annoyed every time someone said about Mega Mawile 'just burn it - i.e. effectively sack your Rotom - and you're good' because you're not lol, seeing at the 260 base Attack monster already has set up an SD that you're just negating - but I digress), not to mention Khan can also set up more than once against shit like Weezing :) and if Khan does go down, Aegislash and Dragonite can sweep entire teams as well (the latter getting a free switch, thus having its berry intact). I'm not saying Khan (and the team) doesn't mind status because it's honestly really annoying and 'playing around it' can only go so far (fuck Swagger Steelix, especially because I only have physical attackers), but it's given me far less problems than I would've thought. Aegislash is far more vulnerable to the status that Khan minds anyway (well maybe not sleep. Takes more turns of burn damage, and have fun getting full paralysis in blade forme). The biggest specific threats are Steelix4, lead Terrakion, and Hurrrrnadus. Terrakion is, well, extremely annoying, and if it haxes me, I'm in some serious trouble. However, I can handle it, even without any previous setup. Terrakion3 and 4 can't OHKO Khan without a crit or an extremely high damage roll and are defeated in return (Earthquake OHKOes 4; because of its Sitrus Berry, 3 can survive on an extremely low damage roll, but is even then killed by a follow-up Sucker Punch). 1 and 2 do OHKO Khan, but I then switch out to Aegislash, which forces out 2 and defeats 1 with a SwordSneak combo. Against the trainers who run all four sets (who I haven't run into with lead Terrak) I think it would've been better not to switch out Khan, simply because I pretty much auto lose if 3 sets up an SD on the switch (especially considering that's the only one the SwordSneak combo doesn't kill because Sitrus), and that's still worse than having a dead Khan and a weakened Aegis. I've run into lead Hurrrnadus only once, and Aegislash set up on it, but I was very lucky Dark Pulse didn't flinch. A more reliable way is to switch to Dragonite, set up, and OHKO with Outrage. (Focus Blast+Hurricane only KOes in the event of a crit or a SpD drop). But yeah, it's kind of a bitch >.> So is Steelix actually, when I ran into it my plan was basically 'switch around the Swagger, don't waste turns setting up because it'll Swagger, and thank Azelf all my team members can at least hit it super effectively'. The few instances I faced it, it usually took down Aegis iirc, but the combined efforts were enough to overcome it, and fortunately Dragonite and Khan also sweep teams by themselves.

The sets are rather standard - Aegislash is generic StanceDance, Dragonite is generic DD, and Khan is generic Khan - but there may be some anomalies. On Dragonite, I run Extremespeed because it's nifty in order to reliably finish off Quick Claw users and because I don't like being walled to death by Togekiss. I can see Roost being useful too, but (in hindsight) considering Aegislash's wonderful defensive synergy with Dragonite I don't think it would've been needed to stall out non-STAB Stone Edges or w/e. As for the STAB move, I used to run Dragon Claw because I didn't like being locked into Outrage, the obvious reason really. Dragon Claw was kinda weak, however (often didn't OHKO neutral targets that weren't frail), so after like 300 battles I reconsidered Outrage. I thought 'well when exactly is it gonna backfire - against Steels and Fairies of course - honestly, does it matter? i mean, is there any steel or fairy that isn't utterly murdered by Khan and/or Aegis? - guess there isn't'. Of course battles are more complex than that and there are of course scenarios conceivable where it would backfire if Khan or Aegis had already been killed, but I figured DClaw's lack of power was more likely to put me into trouble. Honestly, I would like a boosted Dragonite to OHKO an uninvested Zapdos, tyvm.
On Khan, I opted for Earthquake because I honestly found this a lot more useful than Crunch. To each their own, but I liked to hit the stuff that resisted Return with a super effective attack, rather than an unSTABed neutral 80BP coverage move (only a little bit stronger than a resisted Return). It was also really nifty to have a non-contact move at my disposal against opposing Static/Flame Body mons. As everybody knows, Crunch is unequivocally better against status ghosts, but I honestly don't think this is worth losing out on hitting Rock- and Steel-types super effectively. Also, I've already posted once why the 'status ghosts' point is imo given more weight than it deserves; the only non-attacking ghosts Earthquake doesn't hit are Gengar1 (hardly ever appears later on), Drifblim (2HKOed by non-Mega Return, and likes to use TBolt anyway), and Mismagius4. Also, have fun hitting Cofagrigus with Crunch :p Crunch would have saved me in my losing battle so I'm not sure I'm in the position to dismiss it, but there were far more moments where I thought 'man I'm glad I have Earthquake' than 'man I wish I had Crunch'. And once again, to each their own :) Also, I opted for Adamant cuz moar powah (e.g. unboosted OHKO on opposing lead Tyrantrum4, yes please) and because most relevant speed issues were mitigated by Sucker Punch anyway.

I also feel I should dedicate a few words to Gliscor, because -as you maybe know- I've been toying with the idea of using it over Dragonite after seeing Jump's new team, in order to mitigate my Terrakion/Hurrrnadus/status problems. However, I'm usually very reluctant to making changes mid-streak (as I already stated back then) so I was having some serious doubts. Don't get me wrong, I do make changes if they make the team obviously better (I mean, I gave Dragonite Outrage, I gave Greninja a Sash in triples, so I can do it), but this would've been a really large one, and I was really afraid I would overlook a few new weaknesses using Gliscor brought. I'm still in the process of theorymonning a matchup against Moltres and (especially) Volcarona, which might become problems for a Gliscor team (I mean, they both beat Gliscor and Aegislash one-on-one - maybe bar Overheat Moltres against Gliscor - but battles are more complex; in the lead position they both usually lose to Khan barring Moltres3 - which Gliscor probably beats given a free switch - and I bloody well hope I have a somewhat set up Aegislash or a Gliscor behind a sub if they pop out later in the match, and I haven't gotten round to thinking out the details.) Also, as I'm typing this post, I realise Steelix would've given that hypothetic team a really, really hard time ^_^ However, the main reason I didn't go through with this yet was that the team would play differently, and I didn't trust myself that I would learn the subtleties quickly enough. I mean, even in the late 100s I was still discovering some subtleties as to how to play with the original team. As lazy as this team is, it does come with a few subtle instructions. E.g. after switching in Aegislash on an opponent locked into a Fighting-type move and thus forcing it out, always use Sacred Sword on the switch - that free Swords Dance means nothing if a status user/extremely strong Earthquake user that you can't Sneak to death comes out. Also, when PP stalling Choice Band users with Aegislash, don't kill them, just keep alternating between KS/SD and let them Struggle to death, that way you'll come out on top just as well, but with a lot more HP. I'm sure there are a lot more that I only know subconsciously. (I've included a replay that shows these two though. There was also a battle where I caught Krookodile on the switch with Sacred Sword, and then Sneaked it to death, rather than having to switch to Dragonite and losing a shitton of momentum). I'm sure this is common knowledge to most of you, but it wasn't to me when I started this streak (it was kinda counterintuitive to me really), and I had to learn this kind of stuff by doing it wrong along the way ^_^ What I mean to say is, I don't trust myself to immediately fully grasp what's effectively a new team, and a long streak is no place for experimenting - because that's what it would verge on if I were to use a 'new' team. Had I gone through with it, there would have been a huge risk of losing to a Gliscor-beginner's mistake, and I'd rather acknowledge the weaknesses of an admittedly alright team that I knew how to play with and hope they didn't prove fatal too soon - that would be a less frustrating end of the streak.


I lost against one of the three opponents that Khan would like to use Crunch on - Mismagius4 - but I only lost because I was stupid. Hex Maniac Lola led off with it, I know the thing is a PerishTrapper, but every option seems equally bad. Leave in Khan and I'll most likely get PerishTrapped. Switch to Aegis and I'll handily defeat it if it uses a beneficial move on the switch, but I'm kinda screwed if it PerishSongs on the switch because Aegislash then won't have the time to set up an SD and defeat it, because it's definitely gonna stall with Protect. And of course there's always the momentum loss that eventually having to switch out of Perish Song incurs, but especially in hindsight that seems kinda trivial. Dragonite doesn't like to get PerishTrapped as well, but also has to worry about eating those PowerGems. I choose to stay in with Khan, because there doesn't seem to be a right alternative, Aegislash is more valuable against Hex Maniacs, and non-Mega PuP+Return+PuP (in this order because I may luck out with a Return crit and it doesn't matter anyway) kills Mismagius and puts me at +2 anyway (two Return only kill rarely, that wasn't gonna be safe). Of course I just should have switched to Aegislash, but that doesn't help me anymore now :X Mismagius PerishTraps Khan, but I would have killed it if Lax Incense hadn't made the final PuP miss. Anyway, so she switches to Trevenant as Khan dies. I send in Dragonite, set up a DD as Trevenant sets up Trick Room. Shadow Ball does damage and Outrage OHKOes Trevenant. Out comes Froslass, pretty much the worst possible opponent to face right now, so I'm probably definitely dead at this point. I don't even need to look up the set - Aegislash OHKOes both Froslass and what's left of Drifblim with +2 Sneak, but if it's Froslass4 - which it is if memory serves, but looking up is pointless - Sash means Aegislash is gonna eat a Shadow Ball in Blade forme. Of course Dragonite is /technically/ alive, but naturally he is slaughtered by a Blizzard from the 'faster' Froslass. Aegislash fares exactly like he normally would against Sash Froslass, and the mindless pile of brokemons is finally conquered. The annoying thing is, Froslass used Icy Wind as I was setting up an SD for god knows what reason (maybe it wasn't Froslass4 and it's not like I could take a hit in Blade forme or that this turn mattered), so if I had gone for the 2HKO with unboosted Sneak, I would have won, but I see no reason why I should have expected Froslass not to go spam Shadow Ball immediately. Could it be TR still being up, and the AI being stupid and wanting to 'slow down' the now faster Aegislash? Who knows, it doesn't matter anymore lol. Can't even remember the last time I lost to something else than TR (actually I totally do lol, just figure of speech because I seem to lose to it quite often. There's my multi streaks and the first streak with team Clockwork Angels, which I lost cringeworthily early against Cresselia2 when Talon and Nidoking were dead. However, my last noteworthy 100+ streak I didn't lose to TR was... my Rotations streak I guess. Ouch, that's an old one.) It's also kinda funny that TR actually would've allowed me to win this battle if I hadn't set up with Dragonite, but again, idk if I can be reasonably blamed for this. My AI prediction skills aren't that godlike, and I lost the moment I kept Khan in.


upload_2014-9-21_18-34-21.jpeg


288: KMQW-WWWW-WWW9-Q95G StanceDancing the way I learned to do it in this streak.
331: 9QNG-WWWW-WWW9-Q95B the loss
that's pretty much it lol, I also saved battles 100/200/300 but there's honestly nothing exciting going on in there, and I'd rather not delete too many triples replays because that team is still gorgeous.


I don't know if I'm gonna go for a new spin soon, because I'm still not sure about Gliscor. Aegislash and Gliscor both complement Khan amazingly well, but put them together and the team gets boned by Steelix rather painfully. However, with the current team there's still that status weakness that Gliscor would mitigate (as I'm typing this, I remember Dragonite gets Safeguard and has a rather flexible moveslot anyway. Shitty gimmick alert, please ignore me.) Guess I'd have to figure out a third teammate not named Suicune for Khan/Gliscor, but atm I'd rather capitalise on all my streaks being dead here and focus on the Subway and Platinum's frontier. Also, I'd rather do a new run on Triples than on Singles because of a stronger emotional bond with that team. (I've read the comments on that team but forgot to reply just yet lol, will do soon)
I guess I've given this team more shit than it deserves. The individual members may be textbook examples of 'strong pokemon, weak pokemon, that's only the selfish perception of people' (well Khan and Aegislash that is, not really Dragonite because I really like him regardless), but at least they lived up to their broken reputation, and in the end they did turn out to be an actual team that had far less problems than I originally perceived. Also, it was occasionally fun to play with; it's no Clockwork Angels or Suizomence, but I've played far worse teams. It was a lot more fun than the Cloyster team lol. Most of my hostility towards this team simply comes from it being a mindless pile of brokemons without a teambuilding process. I'd like nothing more than actually building some cool teams and getting good streaks with them; that's also why losing this streak leaves me rather cold, whereas losing my triples streak left me quite devastated, even though that one was even less impressive than this one. (Don't get me wrong, I was getting into the leaderboard vibe a little and I'm a bit sad it got cut short before the top 10, but 'a bit sad' is frankly all I am. No emotional bond with this team and no achievement in the 'teambuilding' part.) Anyway, with a mindset like that, there's nothing that destroys your motivation like attaining your best streak by a long shot with a brainless team like this one. Let's just call it a learning experience with a more or less preset team in learning the ropes of long streaks, because I guess this has shown me I eventually did roughly know what I was doing. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made it to 330.

Good luck to all of you. I'm gonna grab some popcorn and a front row seat for the triples race, and I certainly hope Mercury is joining back in ^_^
 
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The Dutch Plumberjack What a love affair the AI has with using speed-lowering moves when it's outsped - I had no idea it extended to Trick Room. Glalie has a much easier matchup against Typhlosion4 and Beartic4 because those two will use Bulldoze/Icy Wind against a Substitute rather than super effective moves.
 

Lumari

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The Dutch Plumberjack What a love affair the AI has with using speed-lowering moves when it's outsped - I had no idea it extended to Trick Room. Glalie has a much easier matchup against Typhlosion4 and Beartic4 because those two will use Bulldoze/Icy Wind against a Substitute rather than super effective moves.
Now that you mention it (i.e. saying it's a general tendency rather than an AI derp moment), there's also this replay from my triples streak:
150: ZEEW-WWWW-WWW9-MUKL
I just thought 'lol, nice' when Exploud used Icy Wind on me when Trick Room was up - thus making me 'faster' - and didn't pay any further attention to it (and kinda forgot about it until just now, no way I was assuming this to be a general AI tendency). But yeah, Azumarill 'outsped' Exploud, and therefore Exploud Icy Winded? Could be... If only I had known this before :p
 
Now that you mention it (i.e. saying it's a general tendency rather than an AI derp moment), there's also this replay from my triples streak:
150: ZEEW-WWWW-WWW9-MUKL
I just thought 'lol, nice' when Exploud used Icy Wind on me when Trick Room was up - thus making me 'faster' - and didn't pay any further attention to it (and kinda forgot about it until just now, no way I was assuming this to be a general AI tendency). But yeah, Azumarill 'outsped' Exploud, and therefore Exploud Icy Winded? Could be... If only I had known this before :p
Yeah, I'd say it's pretty close to universal. It gets to the point of being comical when setting up against Typhlosion because it will switch between Lava Plume and Bulldoze as Glalie's Speed fluctuates between +0 and +1.
 

turskain

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The Dutch Plumberjack, the AI sometimes uses random/dumb moves against Aegislash-Shield if it can't KO, and Froslass Shadow Ball is one of those attacks.

In the (very bad) scenario of Aegislash facing off against Froslass4, straight Sneak is best, since you can only 2HKO it anyway because of Sash. The trainers that can run a set other than Froslass4 are Hex Maniac Anastasia and Chef Andrei; Anastasia can run Froslass3 and Froslass4, while Andrei runs every set, so you get a non-set4 Froslass 75% of the time from him. For Anastasia's Froslass (unknown set), straight Sneak is also better - Froslass3 deals equally low damage to Froslass4 (so it may behave erratically), and it has Hail, a free-win move the AI likes using a lot. For Andrei's Froslass (unknown set), SD+Sneak could be better since 75% of the time, it won't have Sash. (Assuming last Pokémon Froslass; if Aegi might have to sweep Anastasia, then SD on her Froslass might be better.)

Roost on Dragonite over Extremespeed would've also avoided the loss, allowing you to stall out TR using it. Extremespeed is good for Togekiss, though, which would be very unpleasant without it if Khan were down. Roost+Multiscale is really good, but not auto-losing against Kiss a lot of the time is also great (though being locked into Outrage when it comes out makes Extremespeed unusable).
 
ReptoAbysmal, that's some hax. I love your way of playing, and a streak in the 200s with a semi-random team is extremely impressive - how is that even possible with over 20 different teams, most of which will be garbage?
First, congratulations on breaking 2000. I've noticed that while a lot of people have their preferred battle type, you've still gotten into the Top Three for every format except for Multis, which is irrelevant because aside from the trophy, people play that purely for fun and not BP or bragging rights. Your teams are insane.

And Dutch, I want to see you take another crack at Super Triples, but with a substitute for Nidoking, Azumarill or Blaziken. I know you can get much farther with a more reliable answer to Trick Room. Clawitzer may seem unorthodox if not detrimental considering your medium is Tailwind, but it eats those bastards alive. Your backbone would remain solid.

As for me, my teams started becoming garbage far more often when I decided I'd branch way out and breed a ton more pokes- I first had only five Megas, Amphy, Mawile, Snow, Aggron and Heracross, and Mawile/Snow were being drawn far too often. I was also seeing the same faces (seemingly) at least every other batch of ten, and was trying to break up the monotony. It helps that I belong to the crowd that enjoys breeding projects.

As for how I win in spite of that, much of it is because of the work of TRE and other users that dissect all the facility teams. We know how the AI likes to fight, and knowing movesets goes a long way. If you thought 240 was impressive, the streak that gave me the courage to post in this topic was 315, though admittedly (as I detailed previously) two teams didn't stop after ten battles, but won 100 apiece, and what they lacked in reliability they made up for with extremely strong synergy.

Then there's the fact that Trick Room is just... insane. For the same reasons you guys hate it being set up, a Terrakion may as well be a Cryogonal when it has no speed advantage and a pretty poor defensive typing. If I can protect the setter from death, taunt, flinching or status, the odds may not be entirely in my favor, but I've made a lot of shit come together that normally would have looked like a joke sitting in the battle box.

Lastly, while the list of TR-capable pokes is long, even now I only have ten. They all have bulk, and only three have offensive investment. That is to say, my setters are very reliable, and almost all of them serve as team support once the speeds are flipped, be it healing, buffing, neutering or otherwise. If I don't have support like Fake Out or Intimidate, I still get mileage out of exploiting AI idiocy, and because of the setters' bulk, they frequently try to kill my sweepers, of which some are pretty expendable. That's if I can't scrape together even some form of synergy.

I started with 80 pokes (the Maison; 54 of those were Subway pokes doing the same exact thing in Doubles) and am now up to 153, including all the alternate sets. The number skyrocketed once I began experimenting with the Power Items a lot more, as when equipped to bulky pokes, the speed groups that get the jump on them while also threatening them is generally pretty short. Once I realised this I bred TR variants of pokes I loved using with poor value in typical formats, like Porygon-Z and Volcarona (excellent cleanup sweepers.)

I do have a list of all the pokes I have along with their sets, but it's more for keeping track of held items come Banking them to Omega Ruby, or in the event I trade one and have to rebreed it. If OR doesn't create a ton of new Battle Tower sets, I may as well not bother with Bank.
 
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Triples streak just ended at 258, courtesy of user error. Proof: F5EW-WWWW-WWW9-QYA3
Greninja/Aron/Mega Garchomp/Tyranitar/ Talonflame/Aegislash
Standard team, standard play. Tried the Slacking team for half a dozen runs before this, and finally realized that I'm simply not a competent enough battler/planner to make it work.

Couple of things-- Weakness policy on Aegislash is an absolute delight, as is Choice Scarf for T-Tar. Sand Stream works great for finishing off the Aron-Endeavored critters on second round of battle, and Aegislash tends to switch with Garchomp in case of strong ice-types, hence lack of Protect on the latter.

Team:

Muffin (Greninja) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Nature: Timid
IVs: 31/?/31/31/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
-Ice Beam
-Mat Block
-Grass Knot
-Surf

Aron @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Bold
IVs: ?/?/?/?/?/?
EVs: None whatsoever!
-Protect
-Roar
-Endeavor
-Toxic


Flounder (Garchomp) @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/?/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Brick Break
-Protect

Cheeburger (Talonflame) @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/?/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Flare Blitz
-Brave Bird
-Roost
-Protect


Dustorm (Tyranitar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/?/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Crunch
-Rock Slide
-Retaliate


Spork Jr. (Aegislash) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Stance Change
Nature: Adamant
IVs: 31/31/31/?/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 HP
-King's Shield
-Shadow Sneak
-Iron Head
-Sacred Sword
 

Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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A bit late, but congrats on your streak, Jump. It's super impressive how you keep setting the bar for singles every generation. It also makes me feel a little foolish for making statements like "Lum Berry Dragonite/Haxorus are the best leads" - I always dismissed Kanga as a lead because of how much she hates status, but evidently you found the solution by picking the perfect supporting teammates. Btw, I feel like you would be an absolute monster in VGC if you had the time for it, haha.

I'm really pleased about how much competition there still is in this thread. I'm going to make a final attempt at regaining the top spot with Dragsuikhan before ORAS comes along. Also, my brief opinion on Durant streaks: they shouldn't be separated. I don't see anything close to sufficient evidence that Durant is overpowered - hell, it doesn't even feature in the current #1 streak.
Thanks man. I believed you about the Dragonite/Haxorus thing too...until I gave a pretty good poke a second chance. Then, it really WAS about picking the best teammates for Kanga in the end, as I tried to make clear in my explanation. And thanks for the vote of confidence in VGC! I admire all those guys getting the real kudos nationally and globally, and sometimes wish I cared enough, but...I like the brand we've built over the years here. Plus, I can compete while driving, so there's...that.

There's also this too while I'm at it:

1250.JPG


I genuinely don't know why this is upside down, it appears right-side-up everywhere else, but whatever. No, I'm not at 1,521, lol
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
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I genuinely don't know why this is upside down, it appears right-side-up everywhere else, but whatever. No, I'm not at 1,521, lol
Eh, you'll be there soon enough, I wager! Updated through here, so please let me know if I've missed anything. Big numbers everywhere. I wonder if anyone's going to take a run at four digits in rotations...
 

Nix_Hex

Uangaana kasuttortunga!
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Hi all. After a few discouraging losses and fabulous mock rematches with slight team tweaks, I think I am nearing my optimal singles team. I've gotten a lot of help from users like turskain and Jumpman16 on IRC and have gleaned some ideas from this thread, so thank you all. The team started off looking something like this:

Cloyster @ Sash, Jolly and 244 EVs or whatever to outspeed Scarf Manectric w/ Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Explosion / Shell Smash
Garchomp @ Scarf, Adamant, Earthquake / Outrage / Fire Fang -> Dragon Claw / Poison Jab
Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite, Jolly, PuP / Fake Out / Return / Sucker Punch

My problem with Jolly Cloyster is that it couldn't OHKO very much... Actually it really can't do much damage period... Which defeats the purpose of using a Sashed booster like Cloyster. I liked Jolly mainly for it becoming the fastest Pokemon after the boost, but if Manectric and Entei are really the only things that hold a candle to +2 Cloyster, I needed to rethink how I should even use Cloyster in the first place. After getting 3-0ed by that horrible Double Team / Moonlight Cresselia, I was pretty upset but I realized just how weak Jolly Cloyster is. It simply does not have enough umph or time to garner enough boosts and go to town in a situation like that. I chatted a bit with Turskain and he convinced me to go Naughty for the added power and the ability to use Surf to spam against stuff like Regirock, Registeel, and Bronzong (among other, mainly Steel types, that i can't think of at the moment). He advised me to give it enough Speed to get the jump on Bold Volcarona and Zapdos without a boost (and OHKO both). 252 went to Attack and the rest went to SpA. When I were to actually encounter a Scarf Manectric or Entei, the wise turska advised me to... get this... switch to a ground-type! Luckily Garchomp already existed. While it can't outspeed those mons naturally even with a Scarf, I wouldn't be taking that much damage from Entei while Manectric was just going to lock itself into Thunderswitch or weaken itself with a resisted Overheat (would the AI ever use Overheat against a Cloyster, though?). He also pointed out that the Naughty (by) nature could attract the Slowthings to attack instead of using Trick Room, which would allow me to blast them with some rocks, go down, then use as a punching bag for Kangaskhan. This happened several times whether or not by coincidence, and hence I was able to avoid ugly TR situations pretty often. Here's the set:

Cloyster @ Focus Sash

Ability: Skill Link
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Surf
- Shell Smash

I was still pretty unsure against Cresselia and other Evasion users. Sure, I was more powerful and could get past things I wasn't always able to before, but I didn't look forward to facing that Cresselia any time soon. When I lost my next streak (using the new Cloyster set) to MORE evasion hax from Zapdos, I knew I had to make some serious changes. Here is the battle in question. I almost threw my 3DS across the room: #PJNW-WWWW-WWW9-PJC9 (86). Turn 1 pretty much sets the tone for the rest of the match as my magical new fast Cloyster misses two Icicle Spears against Zapdos, who KOes and gets one SpA boost from Charge Beam. Kanga is able to Fake Out + Return to get it to a sliver of HP. Upon surviving, I get burned by Heat Wave. I kill Zapdos next turn (even a burned Return can do 2 HP, surprise surprise), next mon is Tornadus. I'm able to get it down to a sliver (surprise surprise) then ultimately die to burn damage. I don't know why I didn't YOLO it with Garchomp and just go for the Outrage revenge kill but instead I decided to "play it save" with Dragon Claw. He sends in Suicune and KOes with Ice Beam. I'm not pissed at the fact that I didn't Outrage because I knew it wouldn't have been enough. I was also relieved at the loss because it gave me an opportunity to start a fresh run. I wanted to tank Garchomp once and for all; sure it's fast but Scarfers are notorious for being weak and Garchomp was no exception. I had seen Turskain and Eppie talking about Gliscor at one point; Gliscor is the ULTIMATE play-it-safe Pokemon. You can sit there and alternate subs and Protects while even the tankiest of opponents rot away from Toxic damage. After talking with Turskain and Jump s'more, I decided to go with a Specially Defensive spread. I needed the max HP possible that was divisible by 8 in order for a Protect behind a sub to completely mitigate said sub's HP cut. I aimed for the same Speed # as Cloyster (121) and fully invested into SpDef, distributing the scraps to Attack and Defense since they couldn't add to any other stat in any meaningful fashion. One cool thing about 204 HP EVs (176 HP) is that not only is it divisible by 8, but it is only 6 lower than maximum HP. With this new Gliscor, I did mock battles against the hax fests that lost me my two previous streaks. I was able to stall out that Zapdos and Cress with like 0 effort ... Toxic is bound to hit after all, right? I knew it was time to start a new streak.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 4 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Protect
- Substitute

My latest screw up (70) was pretty embarrassing and I'm not going to attribute it to team building but instead to my laziness. The match started as Cloyster vs Regirock, and I Shell Smashed, not taking into consideration Sturdy. <--- laziness, as I simply did not know the sets or bother looking them up. I Surfed and brought Regirock to 1 HP while dying to 2 Stone Edges. I send out Kangaskhan and use PuP because "hey, free boost" <--- laziness, did not know it had a Custap Berry. I have TWO priority moves which makes this me feel even stupider. It Exploded, so I was brought down to about 25% and didn't even get to land my PuP! Regigiggas came in and I smacked it with a Return while it KOed me with Focus Blast. I brought in my last mon, Gliscor and used Toxic to start the rotting ASAP. I land the Toxic, it uses Confuse Ray. <--- this is straight negligence, not laziness, as I am deathly afraid of Confuse Ray whenever I see a Regigiggas but decided to be cute and stall it. I end up getting a Sub up but it breaks the same turn Regi dies to Toxic. Last mon is Moltres. I Protect but get boned by confusion, so it Sky Attacks with a crit to bring me down to a sliver. I die to confusion the next turn. The hax was pretty annoying but I feel dumber about my very bad misplays. Had I just Faked Out the Regirock, Kanga could have taken the match and it would have been yet another "spam shell smash and return" battle that this team is designed to do, and it never would have entered my mind again.

Through all of this, I am learning a ton. Although My streaks are ending in the 70s and 80s, I am able to identify why I am losing and am able to make either small adjustments (Jolly -> Naughty Cloyster) or large but effective adjustments (introducing a brand new Pokemon that played completely differently from its predecessor yet still worked brilliantly with the existing teammates). I am losing to misplays and negligence now. The hax I got in my latest lost was just the icing on top of the cake and is not what sent the battle spinning out of control, unlike that Zapdos.

Threats and potential changes
Lead Poliwrath: I don't know why I always have nightmares about this guy but it really messes up my game plan. I usually end up hitting it with as many Spears as I can before going down, then cleaning up with Kangaskhan. I wish there were a better way around this because it sucks sacking a Pokemon in 3v3 singles; perhaps HP Grass > Surf?
Medicham: High Jump Kick and Psycho Cut do a lot to 204 HP / 4 Def neutral Gliscor so it doesn't wall it very well. I can afford to EQ it once but cannot get the Sub Protect rhythm going.
My Gliscor: Protect -> Knock Off. This helps me get past Ghosts after Cloyster is dead as I hate relying on an unevolved Kangaskhan or Sucker Punch to hit them. It also lives up to its intended purpose. Getting rid of enemy items is always a good thing. I just don't like losing Protect. It is such a safe move and I always play it safe.
 

Lumari

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NixHex Keep Protect imo. Gliscor usually just stalls by alternating between Sub and Protect (honestly, occasionally it stalls out PP of a dangerous move this way before even attempting to land a Toxic; you shouldn't always be clicking Toxic turn 1 with Gliscor) and getting rid of Protect would basically defeat this entire purpose. Quite frankly I think its most disposable move is actually Earthquake, though I don't think Gliscor can afford to miss any of its moves, all of them are essential to what it does. Yes, getting rid of enemy items is nice, but so is being basically guaranteed to defeat virtually any opponent without a Toxic immunity that misses once or fails to break your sub once. (About ghosts, VaporeonIce's -standard SubToxic- Gliscor on his rotations team once defeated Gengar one-on-one. Don't underestimate it ^_^ if you're still afraid of them, you could slap Crunch on Khan over Fake Out, although the only two ghosts that don't rot away from Toxic are Gengar and Mismagius4 iirc - well the latter does rot away but also PerishTraps you, would be nice to avoid that)

I've been pretty busy lately, so I'm not even up to 1600. I'm pretty sure turskain has me beat. Unless my new strategy of "slow and steady" pays off...
You know what they say, haste trips its own heels. You can do it, I believe in you n_n

ReptoAbysmal the exact problems team Clockwork Angels has with TR are rather clear. Opposing TR leads are Taunted; Slowking and Slowbro are slaughtered by Manectric (with Talon or Greninja pushing them over the edge if needed), whereas Aromatisse and setters out of Talon's reach are simply (up to) triple targeted. Against Mara, I can look up her movesets and seeing as I can pretty much assume only one of her leads is gonna set up TR, I can make an educated guess which ones are gonna attack (e.g. Reuniclus is most likely gonna try to kill Talonflame with Rock Slide), and Taunt/kill (if Aromatisse leads) the supposed setter. I don't think there's a single setter that survives being triple targeted.
Stuff mainly goes awry if a setter waltzes in in the middle of the game, which was also what caused me to lose. turskain diagnosed it fairly well; my only mons that can fully function under TR are Talonflame and Azumarill (which is honestly enough if my opponent is as dumb as usual and I can use my third mon as a lightningrod w/ Protect); Greninja and Manectric can /usually/ still take a hit and hit back, but Nidoking and Blaziken are complete and utter cannon fodder against typical TR teams because of their shared Psychic and Water (Slowthings) weaknesses. Ergo, even in a worst case scenario I'm still alive and fighting if a lead sets up TR (because I'll usually have Volt Switched into Azumarill), but in case of a mid-game setter there are significant chances I'll have an awful matchup and am counterswept if I don't manage to achieve a numeric superiority on the field really soon. Fortunately, against mid-game setters I'm usually able to take a 4-0 or 4-1 lead and still win easily, but if the opponent can keep three mons on the field I'm pretty dead :x

The main problem is apparent: Nidoking and Blaziken's awful (and I mean awful) defensive synergy (share the two most detrimental weaknesses against TR, as well as an Earthquake weakness with Manectric? ouch). Unfortunately, they both fill verrry important roles on this team, being the main powerful breakers, a special one and a physical one (kind of really need those because greninja and talon are still rather weak at the end of the day). Moreover, I kind of really need ground STAB (provided by Nidoking) and fighting STAB (provided by Blaziken, kills a lot of really annoying stuff and legendaries.) Also, I can't afford at all to give up on a Toxic immunity because Cresselia2 exists and I don't wanna be helpless if Talonflame isn't around anymore to Taunt it; a Toxic immunity is kinda essential to auto-win against it if I manage to isolate it, because I don't like the idea of brute forcing my way through a double team spamming opponent with 120/130/130 (iirc) bulk that isn't really hit super effectively by moves with more than 80BP (yeah Megahorn exists but i'm not gonna try achieving a long streak with that. Bug Buzz exists too but idk if anything good learns it. Oh wait, Volcarona is supposedly alright. But now that I mention Bug Buzz I kinda want to try and make Yanmega work ^_^ ^_^ )

Ok. The front line is staying. I can totally live with Blaziken leaving, but idk what would be a good fighting-type to replace him. Just to make myself clear, I'm also cool with Nidoking leaving, but he's even harder to replace, considering I'd lose out on a non-spread Ground move, a Toxic immunity, and an Electric immunity (although I reckon the need for the latter is seriously mitigated by lightningrod). I also don't mind Azumarill leaving, but that would be kinda stupid, because he already is a solid TR safety net and the main problem is obviously the Nidoking-Blaziken combo. (which also means no Clawitzer because i'd be stocking up on water-types too much that way. Sorry. Clawitzer is a solid option though if fsr I were to swap out both Nidoking and Blaziken, I know the thing is pretty scary.) Anyhoo, with all this stuff I somehow have to retain I'm a tad stumped. The best I can come up with so far are Lucario (whose physical movepool quite blows, still has the earthquake weakness, and is helpless under TR. not Blaziken helpless but still Greninja helpless) and Hydreigon (sounds kinda cool tbqf and gets, albeit non-STAB, Earth Power. Honestly seems to be the best one-on-one Nidoking replacement not named Landorus in terms of role, but stacks coverage and weaknesses with Greninja.). But apart from the defensive synergy these are far worse than King and Blaze :< The only powerful single-target Ground-type move other than Earth Power I know of is Bonemerang (well and mention Drill Run but Nidoking 100% outclasses Excadrill apart from the Psychic weakness), but Marowak wouldn't work well on this team (I'm very sure though that ReptoAbysmal has made Marowak work, but unfortunately I don't run TR). Halp. Need inspiration in order for fierce theorymon to ensue.

Marowak @ Ring Target
ability: Lightning Rod
nature: Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Earth Power
-Flamethrower
-Ice Beam
-Protect
pairs decently with Manectric amirite? nah fuck this, requires bank anyway :p



my god why do i now have this stupid urge of replacing manectric with specs tinted lens yanmega. defensive typing is surprisingly not half awful against tr. rock slide my front line ya scrubs

ps: yes i have a sheer force landorus, but i held off on using that one just yet because its ivs and nature (serious) were imperfect (not bad per se though) and nidoking had a toxic immunity and usable dual stab.
 

turskain

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NixHex Keep Protect imo. Gliscor usually just stalls by alternating between Sub and Protect (honestly, occasionally it stalls out PP of a dangerous move this way before even attempting to land a Toxic; you shouldn't always be clicking Toxic turn 1 with Gliscor) and getting rid of Protect would basically defeat this entire purpose. Quite frankly I think its most disposable move is actually Earthquake, though I don't think Gliscor can afford to miss any of its moves, all of them are essential to what it does. Yes, getting rid of enemy items is nice, but so is being basically guaranteed to defeat virtually any opponent without a Toxic immunity that misses once or fails to break your sub once. (About ghosts, VaporeonIce's -standard SubToxic- Gliscor on his rotations team once defeated Gengar one-on-one. Don't underestimate it ^_^ if you're still afraid of them, you could slap Crunch on Khan over Fake Out, although the only two ghosts that don't rot away from Toxic are Gengar and Mismagius4 iirc - well the latter does rot away but also PerishTraps you, would be nice to avoid that)


You know what they say, haste trips its own heels. You can do it, I believe in you n_n

ReptoAbysmal the exact problems team Clockwork Angels has with TR are rather clear. Opposing TR leads are Taunted; Slowking and Slowbro are slaughtered by Manectric (with Talon or Greninja pushing them over the edge if needed), whereas Aromatisse and setters out of Talon's reach are simply (up to) triple targeted. Against Mara, I can look up her movesets and seeing as I can pretty much assume only one of her leads is gonna set up TR, I can make an educated guess which ones are gonna attack (e.g. Reuniclus is most likely gonna try to kill Talonflame with Rock Slide), and Taunt/kill (if Aromatisse leads) the supposed setter. I don't think there's a single setter that survives being triple targeted.
Stuff mainly goes awry if a setter waltzes in in the middle of the game, which was also what caused me to lose. turskain diagnosed it fairly well; my only mons that can fully function under TR are Talonflame and Azumarill (which is honestly enough if i'm facing a retarded opponent as usual and can use my third mon as a lightningrod w/ Protect); Greninja and Manectric can /usually/ still take a hit and hit back, but Nidoking and Blaziken are complete and utter cannon fodder against typical TR teams because of their shared Psychic and Water (Slowthings) weaknesses. Ergo, even in a worst case scenario I'm still alive and fighting if a lead sets up TR (because I'll usually have Volt Switched into Azumarill), but in case of a mid-game setter there are significant chances I'll have an awful matchup and am counterswept if I don't manage to achieve a numeric superiority on the field really soon. Fortunately, against mid-game setters I'm usually able to take a 4-0 or 4-1 lead and still win easily, but if the opponent can keep three mons on the field I'm pretty dead :x

The main problem is apparent: Nidoking and Blaziken's awful (and I mean awful) defensive synergy (share the two most detrimental weaknesses against TR, as well as an Earthquake weakness with Manectric? ouch). Unfortunately, they both fill verrry important roles on this team, being the main powerful breakers, a special one and a physical one (kind of really need those because greninja and talon are still rather weak at the end of the day). Moreover, I kind of really need ground STAB (provided by Nidoking) and fighting STAB (provided by Blaziken, kills a lot of really annoying stuff and legendaries.) Also, I can't afford at all to give up on a Toxic immunity because Cresselia2 exists and I don't wanna be helpless if Talonflame isn't around anymore to Taunt it; a Toxic immunity is kinda essential to auto-win against it if I manage to isolate it, because I don't like the idea of brute forcing my way through a double team spamming opponent with 120/130/130 (iirc) bulk that isn't really hit super effectively by moves with more than 80BP (yeah Megahorn exists but i'm not gonna try achieving a long streak with that. Bug Buzz exists too but idk if anything good learns it. Oh wait, Volcarona is supposedly alright. But now that I mention Bug Buzz I kinda want to try and make Yanmega work ^_^ ^_^ )

Ok. The front line is staying. I can totally live with Blaziken leaving, but idk what would be a good fighting-type to replace him. Just to make myself clear, I'm also cool with Nidoking leaving, but he's even harder to replace, considering I'd lose out on a non-spread Ground move, a Toxic immunity, and an Electric immunity (although I reckon the need for the latter is seriously mitigated by lightningrod). I also don't mind Azumarill leaving, but that would be kinda stupid, because he already is a solid TR safety net and the main problem is obviously the Nidoking-Blaziken combo. (which also means no Clawitzer because i'd be stocking up on water-types too much that way. Sorry. Clawitzer is a solid option though if fsr I were to swap out both Nidoking and Blaziken, I know the thing is pretty scary.) Anyhoo, with all this stuff I somehow have to retain I'm a tad stumped. The best I can come up with so far are Lucario (whose physical movepool quite blows, still has the earthquake weakness, and is helpless under TR. not Blaziken helpless but still Greninja helpless) and Hydreigon (sounds kinda cool tbqf and gets, albeit non-STAB, Earth Power. Honestly seems to be the best one-on-one Nidoking replacement not named Landorus in terms of role, but stacks coverage and weaknesses with Greninja.). But apart from the defensive synergy these are far worse than King and Blaze :< The only powerful single-target Ground-type move other than Earth Power I know of is Bonemerang (well and mention Drill Run but Nidoking 100% outclasses Excadrill apart from the Psychic weakness), but Marowak wouldn't work well on this team (I'm very sure though that ReptoAbysmal has made Marowak work, but unfortunately I don't run TR). Halp. Need inspiration in order for fierce theorymon to ensue.

Marowak @ Ring Target
ability: Lightning Rod
nature: Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Earth Power
-Flamethrower
-Ice Beam
-Protect
pairs decently with Manectric amirite? nah fuck this, requires bank anyway :p



my god why do i now have this stupid urge of replacing manectric with specs tinted lens yanmega. defensive typing is surprisingly not half awful against tr. rock slide my front line ya scrubs

ps: yes i have a sheer force landorus, but i held off on using that one just yet because its ivs and nature (serious) were imperfect (not bad per se though) and nidoking had a toxic immunity and usable dual stab.
I did a bit of thinking. The back-line needs a Ground-immune Pokémon to cover Manectric's weakness, for Donphan4 in the non-Talonflame-facing side position if nothing else. Once you have that, running STAB Earthquake becomes possible with Talonflame and Mysterious Flier both having immunity. For the STAB EQ user, there's many options since Tailwind is in effect. For the Ground-immune back-up, Latios seems like an option if not running Garchomp in the Earthquake position.

Earth Power could work if Sheer Force Landorus was both the Ground-type and Flying-type back-up provider, but its movepool outside Earth Power seems useless. If you put a Ground-immune Pokémon in the back, you have enough Ground immunity to go with STAB EQ instead. Earth Power might enable the very tempting Clawitzer, though, for a back-line of something like Landorus/Clawitzer/Aegislash.

To throw something together, Latios/Excadrill/Azumarill or Latios/Excadrill/BalloonApe or Togekiss/Garchomp/Scizor are things that spring to mind. These are just examples (and not particularly TR-proof ones at that), but something along those lines might work.

Yanmega is pretty tempting, I've wanted to try Speed Boost myself. But losing to Jolteon/Aerodactyl and others makes it look like a waste of fine Speed, in addition to its dreadful defensive typing.
 

Lumari

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I did a bit of thinking. The back-line needs a Ground-immune Pokémon to cover Manectric's weakness, for Donphan4 in the non-Talonflame-facing side position if nothing else. Once you have that, running STAB Earthquake becomes possible with Talonflame and Mysterious Flier both having immunity. For the STAB EQ user, there's many options since Tailwind is in effect. For the Ground-immune back-up, Latios seems like an option if not running Garchomp in the Earthquake position.

Earth Power could work if Sheer Force Landorus was both the Ground-type and Flying-type back-up provider, but its movepool outside Earth Power seems useless. If you put a Ground-immune Pokémon in the back, you have enough Ground immunity to go with STAB EQ instead. Earth Power might enable the very tempting Clawitzer, though, for a back-line of something like Landorus/Clawitzer/Aegislash.

To throw something together, Latios/Excadrill/Azumarill or Latios/Excadrill/BalloonApe or Togekiss/Garchomp/Scizor are things that spring to mind. These are just examples (and not particularly TR-proof ones at that), but something along those lines might work.

Yanmega is pretty tempting, I've wanted to try Speed Boost myself. But losing to Jolteon/Aerodactyl and others makes it look like a waste of fine Speed, in addition to its dreadful defensive typing.
Ok thanks, that should provide me with sufficient inspiration ^_^
one thing about Garchomp though: I had him on the first version of my team but he was deadweight; every time I Volt Switched into him, I was like 'well shit. I'd love to use EQ now but then I'm gonna slaughter Greninja because he doesn't have Protect', and that's definitely gonna occur again. Would you simply switch Greninja to the UFM (unidentified flying mon) then, and wouldn't the momentum loss be too cringeworthy?
kinda wish I had a good Latios now because iirc mine is Naughty >.>

And yeah, Lando's movepool was the main reason I stayed with Nido. Apart from Earth Power it has as reliable special moves... Psychic? UnSTABed Sludge Bomb? that's pretty much it lol
 
Agreed wholeheartedly on SF Landorus being unable to do much outside of Earth Power, not to mention it all but mandates the Life Orb, an issue if Landorus is what it'd take to even make you entertain Clawitzer.

I also strongly recommend against using Aegislash. It's one of my favorite TR sweepers, but it can't possibly function as an answer to TR without being deadweight the rest of the time. Its EV allotment is too important and must be refined. Shadow Sneak is a really shitty move in triples by itself, and Aegislash can't use its utilities like it can in singles without compromising its value- as backup on this team, it needs to serve as an immediate threat, and it can do that, but not without Tailwind or TR in play and a spread and set that utilizes one.

It's largely for the same reason you wisely ruled out Marowak right off the bat, but at least Aegislash can split skulls while adhering to your team's modus operandi; it just can't do what you're trying to accomplish right now.

Having said that, if you were to amusingly face nothing but TR teams every battle, Aegis is an amazing Destiny Bonder and also a suicide sweeper. Full investment in Att and SpA with Brave and an Expert Belt is enough to OHKO a long list of things covered by its movepool, while guaranteeing a OHKO on Slowbro 4 among other bulky TR setters weak to Shadow Ball; and Focus Sash variants are able to use DB, which has a lot of practical uses which compensate for the loss of power. I've even been able to get good usage out of Head Smash, but keep in mind my teams often get to play around with Heal Pulse and/or Gravity.
 

turskain

activated its Quick Claw!
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Ok thanks, that should provide me with sufficient inspiration ^_^
one thing about Garchomp though: I had him on the first version of my team but he was deadweight; every time I Volt Switched into him, I was like 'well shit. I'd love to use EQ now but then I'm gonna slaughter Greninja because he doesn't have Protect', and that's definitely gonna occur again. Would you simply switch Greninja to the UFM (unidentified flying mon) then, and wouldn't the momentum loss be too cringeworthy?
kinda wish I had a good Latios now because iirc mine is Naughty >.>

And yeah, Lando's movepool was the main reason I stayed with Nido. Apart from Earth Power it has as reliable special moves... Psychic? UnSTABed Sludge Bomb? that's pretty much it lol
Either switch Greninja for UFM or keep it in and let it take a hit with Sash - if he made it unscathed through the Mat Block turn, he can survive an EQ, and KOing key threats is worth a little sacrifice. It can also become a Grass-type with Grass Knot to always survive EQ even with a broken Sash (particularly useful against Tyranitar and Hippowdon, who break your Sash and are KO'd by Grass Knot + EQ and a few similar cases). But yeah, an Earthquake user like Chomp is definitely not an ideal Volt Switch candidate. The other back-ups would be preferred most of the time, with the EQ user coming in when EQ-vulnerable targets rear their ugly faces.

Which is another reason having Tailwind and being able to choose something other than Chomp is tempting, since with something like Latios as the UFM, the Earthquake user won't be the primary Volt Switch candidate. If Latios is out, Hydreigon is probably the best one remaining - maybe even better than Latios with its anti-TR properties. Or Aerilate Hyper Voice Mega Salamence with Manectric being ditched for Raikou to free up the Mega slot?
 
Well it's official, I really stink at Maison Doubles. Got all the trophies but this one without a problem but here I just keep failing hard after battle 30 or so.

My latest loss was with a team of Mega-Charizard Y, Venasaur (Chlorophyll), Garchomp, and Cresselia. Against a team of a Dewgong and Cyrogonall (I lost before finding out the rest).

Horrible match. Dewgong used Fake-out on Charizard, and then Cyrogonall Sheer Cold-ed my Venasaur. Cresselia comes out to slow them down with Icy Wind, and Charizard proceeds to miss Cyrogonall with Heat Wave and half-working on Dewgong. Charizard is then killed by double blizzard spam despite the sun (doesn't blizzard miss more in the sun?). Garchomp comes out and Dewgong's quick claw activates, nuking him instantly to an ice beam. Cresselia hangs on and stalls with moonlight but eventually faints.

About all the bad luck of the game rolled into one fight. I guess the only way to top it is parafusion with an attract chaser. Right now I'm just looking for a solid team that can get me to the 50 match mark, not necessarily one that will make a long streak out of. Any ideas? I'm thinking a trick room team with Aron, since that was so far my closest. This team wasn't bad per say (unlucky for sure), but I found I relied on Venasaur a lot more than Charizard (at least, once the chlorophyll kicked in). Maybe retool it so Venasaur is less of a crutch?

Definitely picking up a vibe that Doubles is the hardest track (next to Multi with an A.I. partner) in the Maison. Looking at the hall of fame list, the numbers being posted are a little lower than Triples and Singles (except for a few standouts). Any opinions?
 
Well it's official, I really stink at Maison Doubles. Got all the trophies but this one without a problem but here I just keep failing hard after battle 30 or so.

My latest loss was with a team of Mega-Charizard Y, Venasaur (Chlorophyll), Garchomp, and Cresselia. Against a team of a Dewgong and Cyrogonall (I lost before finding out the rest).

Horrible match. Dewgong used Fake-out on Charizard, and then Cyrogonall Sheer Cold-ed my Venasaur. Cresselia comes out to slow them down with Icy Wind, and Charizard proceeds to miss Cyrogonall with Heat Wave and half-working on Dewgong. Charizard is then killed by double blizzard spam despite the sun (doesn't blizzard miss more in the sun?). Garchomp comes out and Dewgong's quick claw activates, nuking him instantly to an ice beam. Cresselia hangs on and stalls with moonlight but eventually faints.

About all the bad luck of the game rolled into one fight. I guess the only way to top it is parafusion with an attract chaser. Right now I'm just looking for a solid team that can get me to the 50 match mark, not necessarily one that will make a long streak out of. Any ideas? I'm thinking a trick room team with Aron, since that was so far my closest. This team wasn't bad per say (unlucky for sure), but I found I relied on Venasaur a lot more than Charizard (at least, once the chlorophyll kicked in). Maybe retool it so Venasaur is less of a crutch?

Definitely picking up a vibe that Doubles is the hardest track (next to Multi with an A.I. partner) in the Maison. Looking at the hall of fame list, the numbers being posted are a little lower than Triples and Singles (except for a few standouts). Any opinions?
If you're just looking for 50, I'd recommend swapping out Cresselia for a hard hitter and putting something like Scarf Darmanitan (with an Adamant nature OHKOes Aerodactyl in the Sun) or Scarf Typhlosion in front with Charizard. Most battles will be super quick with spamming Fire moves, so even if you hit a bad matchup and lose before 50 you can get the streak back up there right away. Protect would be good on Charizard if you don't already have it so you can dodge an obvious Stone Edge while your Scarfed partner takes out something for free. Also try to fit in Flamethrower so you don't have to worry about Heat Wave missing; if something's weak to Fire your scarfer can KO it first so you don't have as much of a need for the spread damage.

Triples is definitely easier than Doubles since there are twice as many teammates on the field that can benefit from the free turns that Mat Block/opponents targeting a level 1 Aron using Protect gives you.
 
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NoCheese

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You want a fast team, try Specs Sylveon / Talonflame in the front and Greninja / Mega Blastoise in the back. Very, very quick battles and nicely handles the chatelaine. It's basically my triples team collapsed for doubles, and its super fun to smash with both Hyper Voice and Water Spout simultaneously after Talonflame faints. That said, it's not particularly reliable, and I've never gone beyond 130-something with it, so I would only recommend it for quickly grabbing the trophy, not for trying to put together a leaderboard streak.
 
You want a fast team, try Specs Sylveon / Talonflame in the front and Greninja / Mega Blastoise in the back. Very, very quick battles and nicely handles the chatelaine. It's basically my triples team collapsed for doubles, and its super fun to smash with both Hyper Voice and Water Spout simultaneously after Talonflame faints. That said, it's not particularly reliable, and I've never gone beyond 130-something with it, so I would only recommend it for quickly grabbing the trophy, not for trying to put together a leaderboard streak.
Well, it's lucky that I didn't have my Doubles trophy yet! ^^ (Now I just need a Hyper Voice Sylveon... TO THE WIFI FORUM)
 
You want a fast team, try Specs Sylveon / Talonflame in the front and Greninja / Mega Blastoise in the back. Very, very quick battles and nicely handles the chatelaine. It's basically my triples team collapsed for doubles, and its super fun to smash with both Hyper Voice and Water Spout simultaneously after Talonflame faints. That said, it's not particularly reliable, and I've never gone beyond 130-something with it, so I would only recommend it for quickly grabbing the trophy, not for trying to put together a leaderboard streak.
Well, I do have most of those pokemon all ready to go (although Mega Blastoise lacks water spout, I might try to get one with that). I'll give it a shot and see.

Thanks for the tips NoCheese and GG Unit. I'll try them out!
 
ZardY/Chomp as a lead pair can beat most of the first 50 battles single-handedly. Just spam Heat Wave plus Earthquake. Make sure the rest of the team can handle Pokemon that blank Charizard and give Garchomp trouble (like fast electrics, Lati@s, etc.)
 
My streak ended yesterday, so I might as well post it. 196 wins streak in Super Doubles

Ok so I talked to The Dutch Plumberjack in a PM, and he gave me useful advice, so props to him:) I'll also copypaste a few parts of the PM, as I described pretty much everything there lol

this was literally GP checked by TDPJ lol you're awesome
also I added a few comments

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- Sucker Punch
- Power-Up Punch

Standard set, not much to say here. Fake Out for the first turn, Return is the strong STAB move, Sucker Punch for priority and for Ghost- and Psychic-types, and PuP to boost. I went with a Jolly nature because it really helps when she has to KO something with Fake Out + Return, as she could be outsped by some things with an Adamant nature. The loss in power hasn't really mattered until now. Max EVs in Attack and Speed. Kangaskhanite to Mega Evolve. Quoting its Doubles analysis, she's "As unforgiving as the most ruthless tyrant and as ferocious as an angry mother"xD

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 20 HP / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower
- Protect

AKA flinching machine. Air Slash is very useful, despite its 95% accuracy. It's the most used move here, because of the amazing flinch chance and the coverage on Fighting-type Pokemon that threaten Khan. Also, since Toge outspeeds Volc4, it can 2HKO the bug before it even moves(it's kinda important to me, I hate Volc4). Dazzling Gleam is there for the spread damage and nice coverage overall, hitting Dragon- and Dark-types, as the Fighting-type Pokemon are usually hit by Air Slash. Flamethrower is used for Steel-type Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor, which would otherwise wall Toge and give Khan a bit of a hard time. This Toge is offensive because you can't rely on Khan killing everything, especially in the Maison, so a defensive set(something like Follow Me/T-Wave/Protect/Air Slash I guess? I'm not good at Doubles) was unviable, at least in this team. The EVs and nature hit 143 Speed, which lets it outspeed everything up to Klinklang, but I can be convinced to change the Speed EVs. Maximum Sp. Attack, and the rest goes in HP. Sitrus Berry was chosen for its 25% HP boost, and since Toge has the bulk to almost never get OHKOed(unless it's by shit such as CB Head Smash or a crit) and go down to <50% HP, it's been useful in many battles.


The two back-ups cover the Rock-types, which give a lot of trouble to the leads(e.g. Terrakion. The plan against it is to use Fake Out with Khan first turn and switch Toge to Conk, then second turn switch Khan to Aegis on a predicted CC/Sword, and proceed to kill it with Drain Punch).

Aegislash @ Occa Berry
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Sneak

You noticed the Occa Berry, right? Aegis is using it because I realized I had no Fire-type resists in the team, and that one-time use Berries like such as Occa are good in Doubles. Also, it's Aegis' biggest weakness in this team, as Ghost-types are KOed by Sucker Punch/Knock Off/Shadow Ball, Dark-types are KOed by Khan/Toge/Conk, and the only strong Ground-type move, Earthquake, is weakened in Doubles(yay). The Berry saved me a few times, like when Aegis survived Flare Blitz from Darmanitan, and killed it with Shadow Ball + Sneak. However, it also activated at some really dumb times, like when Zapdos used a spread Heat Wave. It dealt 24 damage to Aegis.
Aside from the item, the set is rather standard. King's Shield because it's not suicidal, Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon are the strong(STRONG) STAB moves, hitting Ghost-, Psychic-, Rock-, Ice-, and Fairy-types. Shadow Sneak is there for the priority. It hits pretty hard too, and it picks off weakened things.

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 244 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

This guy was the last member to join the team. I was looking for something that could absorb status(Khan hates burn and is sorta annoyed by paralysis and poison, Toge doesn't like paralysis, because then it can't flinch things anymore, and burn and poison cut its longevity rather quickly, and Aegis is really annoyed by paralysis(ugh full para on attacking turn), and burn weakens its Shadow Sneak and cuts its life, especially because I use King's Shield pretty much every other turn), that resisted Rock, and could take special hits(especially Electric- and Fire-moves). So AV Guts Conk is the answer I found. The item and nature should be obvious, and for the EVs, I maximized Attack first, then put 4 EVs in Speed for a little Speed creeping on things like Armaldo4, then gave it the best possible EV spread to make its special bulk better. Look at this(I know M-Zam doesn't exist in the Maison, it's for the sake of comparison):
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 146-174 (80.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 146-174 (81.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 12 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 150-176 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's a small difference, but it can matter sometime in the future, so better safe than sorry. The 4 HP EVs and 4 Defense EVs also boost its physical Defense a bit.
The moveset is rather standard. Drain Punch is a strong STAB move that also heals it, which is important for an AV user. Mach Punch is the third priority move on this team, and it also finishes off weakened Pokemon. Ice Punch and Knock Off are here for coverage on Dragon-, Grass-, Ground-, and Flying-types and Ghost- and Psychic-types, respectively.


Strategy(if you can call it that lol)

Khan pretty much always start the game flinching something with Fake Out, and Toge would hit something threating with a move, usually a Fighting-type pokemon that was flinched. "About the hax involved in the team, I don't think it's that big of an issue. I only have Toge use Air Slash on things I'm sure it will outspeed, and consider the flinch some sort of added bonus, I guess. Like, I hardly use Air Slash just for the flinch(maybe first turn). Also, I never try to stay in and flinch dangerous things, like a Rock-type(unless Toge is my last mon, but that never happened yet). That's why we have those two specific back-ups." Conk and Aegis switch in on Rock- or Fighting-type moves that threaten the leads. Of course, I can't always rely on Khan to bring one of the back-ups safely(like in the Terrakion situation above) as I'm fighting two pokemon at the same time. For example, TDPJ asked me what I would do against a Terrakion+Moltres lead. I theorymonned(is this correct?) a bit and replied "For the Terrakion-Moltres lead situation, Khan and Toge can KO Terrakion with Fake Out+Spread Dazzling Gleam+Sucker Punch:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 27-33 (16.2 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 108-128 (65 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 36-43 (21.6 - 25.9%) -- 2.6% chance to 4HKO
16.2+65+21.6=102.8% HP
If it's Terrakion3(the Sitrus Berry one), though, it will survive. However, The berry will activate after Toge's Dazzling Gleam, so I can switch out on the second turn, and pray that Moltres doesn't guess which poke will switch out to Conk(Moltres2 will probably waste its Power Herb in the first turn though, so Aerial Ace is the best it can do to Conk, but it probably won't use that, because Toge and Khan don't take much from it[Toge takes quite a lot from Sky Attack, though, so Moltres may try to finish it off with Aerial Ace. Because of that, I should switch Toge to Aegis and Khan to Conk. Thank God Terrakion3 isn't common]), then finish Terrakion off with Mach Punch. This is, of course, assuming Terrakion won't switch out on the second turn. After Terrakion goes down, Khan can come back in and kill Moltres if it doesn't have Flame Body(or even if it does, if she needs to)."
As you can see, the team has ways to play around a few threatening pokemon(although something like a Terrakion+specs Thundurus lead would be awful), but pretty much any successful team can do that lol.

Threats

Well, the team can cover almost everything, but there are a few annoying guys:

Heatran - Khan can burned by Flame Body, Toge can't hurt it, and Aegis can hit it once with Shadow Ball thanks to the Occa Berry. If Conk goes down, Heatran can destroy the team. Thankfully, Conk has always been alive when Heatran appeared:)

Lead Terrakion+specs Thundurus - This hasn't happened yet, but if it does, that'd probably be the end of my streak. Both Terrakion and Thundurus can OHKO my both my leads(Close Combat and Stone Edge, specs Thunderbolt and Focus Blast), and they can heavily dent my back-ups too, depending on what move they choose.

Can't think of anything else now, I'm tired.

How I lost

#197 - G5VW-WWWW-WWW9-TCR9 vs. Durant/Whiscash/Charizard/Serperior
What ended my streak was a misplay and that Fissure hit on the first turn. I could've used Fake Out on Whiscash, and used Protect on Toge to avoid durant's Iron Head. Then I could kill Whiscash with Return the next turn, and switch Toge to Aegis to tank Durant's Iron Head(then probably the AI would send out Charizard because Serperior would be useless here. Aegis would tank a Heat Wave and kill Durant with Shadow Ball, while Khan kills Zard assuming it didn't get burned by Heat Wave or killed by Focus Blast. After that, Serperior would be helpless against my whole team.).
Of course, there was quite a lot of hax in this battle. One Fissure hit, a few accuracy drops(and therefore misses) from Muddy Water and two burns on the same turn. In the end, I had a burned Blade Aegis and a burned Toge at very low HP with an almost dead Conk in the back against a Charizard and specs Serperior. Just watch it, you'll understand.

"I'm kinda sad the streak ended because of hax, I wish it could've ended in a more heroic way, against stuff the team actually fears, like lead Terrakion + specs Thundurus, or something else, but not because of hax. That's just stupid." But hey, what can I do about it now? Let's get over it and start another streak lol

What now?

As I said, I started another streak, but with Grass Knot over Dazzling Gleam on Toge. I might miss a spread move or a Fairy-type move, but Grass Knot is useful for many threats, " like Rhyperior, Golem, Swampert, Barbaracle(!), Walrein(!), and many others. I've seen that they trouble my leads quite a bit(ok maybe not Swampert), and Grass Knot deals with them. I also just realized Terrakion dies to Fake Out + Grass Knot:) Here are a few calcs(against set 4):
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 312-369 (140.5 - 166.2%) - dies even with Solid Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Golem: 268-316 (172.9 - 203.8%) - it can have Sturdy though
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 136-160 (65.7 - 77.2%) - It's a 2HKO, so it can't set up with Curse
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 200-236 (136 - 160.5%)
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Walrein: 92-110 (49.7 - 59.4%) - Return + GK KO's, assuming no Lax Incense hax
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 27-33 (16.2 - 19.8%)
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 142-168 (85.5 - 101.2%)"
I also realized DG doesn't hit anything particularly hard(maybe Tyrantrum4, but it dies to PuP + GK), and the other dragons can be beaten with the right plays. I couldn't give up Flamethrower's great coverage on Steel types, because if I did, Toge would be completely helpless against them(ok maybe it could flinch them to death).

TDPJ aka The Dutch Plumberjack for helping a lot in that PM:) again, you're awesome
NoCheese for running this thread, you're also awesome:)
And everyone else that posts in this thread, as this helped me and other people a lot. you guys are also awesome:)
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Free cookies for everyone!:D
 

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turskain

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As I said, I started another streak, but with Grass Knot over Dazzling Gleam on Toge. I might miss a spread move or a Fairy-type move, but Grass Knot is useful for many threats, " like Rhyperior, Golem, Swampert, Barbaracle(!), Walrein(!), and many others. I've seen that they trouble my leads quite a bit(ok maybe not Swampert), and Grass Knot deals with them. I also just realized Terrakion dies to Fake Out + Grass Knot:) Here are a few calcs(against set 4):
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 312-369 (140.5 - 166.2%) - dies even with Solid Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Golem: 268-316 (172.9 - 203.8%) - it can have Sturdy though
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 136-160 (65.7 - 77.2%) - It's a 2HKO, so it can't set up with Curse
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 200-236 (136 - 160.5%)
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Walrein: 92-110 (49.7 - 59.4%) - Return + GK KO's, assuming no Lax Incense hax
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 27-33 (16.2 - 19.8%)
252 SpA Togekiss Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 142-168 (85.5 - 101.2%)"
I also realized DG doesn't hit anything particularly hard(maybe Tyrantrum4, but it dies to PuP + GK), and the other dragons can be beaten with the right plays. I couldn't give up Flamethrower's great coverage on Steel types, because if I did, Toge would be completely helpless against them(ok maybe it could flinch them to death).

TDPJ aka The Dutch Plumberjack for helping a lot in that PM:) again, you're awesome
NoCheese for running this thread, you're also awesome:)
And everyone else that posts in this thread, as this helped me and other people a lot. you guys are also awesome:)
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Free cookies for everyone!:D
Grass Knot is useful, but Togekiss learns another great move: Aura Sphere, which hits Glaceon, Walrein and Regigigas while ignoring BrightPowder and does decent damage to Rock threats, though not enough to KO. It also hits Steels not named Scizor/Forretress decently, so it could replace Flamethrower. Scizor4 has Occa Berry, so Flamethrower misses the KO anyway. Forretress4 only has entry hazard moves (which your back-ups don't care about too much) and Explosion, and is generally PuP bait/free-win unless it surprises you with a Custap Berry Explosion. Ditto for Skarmory4, except it has Toxic and Whirlwind.

Air Slash as the primary move with 95% accuracy sounds a bit dangerous, especially if using it repeatedly to flinch, but not much can be done about that.

I'm not overly sold on Sitrus Berry. A boosting item like Life Orb would allow it to do more damage while Khan uses Fake Out, especially for non-STAB Aura Sphere if you choose to go for it.

Speed-wise, Modest could be an option:

142 - Greninja 1, Kangaskhan 1, ALL Klinklang, Lucario 1, Moltres (1,2), Porygon-Z (1,2), Roserade 2
141 - Charizard 1, Salamence 2
140 - Sceptile 4
139 - Absol (3,4), Hydreigon 2
138 - Hawlucha 2, Haxorus 2, Seismitoad (3,4)
137 - Articuno 4, Heracross 2, Mismagius 2, Nidoking (3,4), Pinsir (1,2), Sawk (1,2,4), ALL Toxicroak
136 - Electivire (1,2), Skuntank (1,2), Zebstrika 1
135 - Magmortar 2
134 - Bisharp 3, Breloom (2,3), Metagross 1, Skarmory 1
133 - Gyarados 2, Serperior 3
132 - Altaria 2, Blaziken (3,4), Braviary (2,4), Dragonite (2,4), Drifblim (2,4), Exploud 4, Gardevoir 4, Mandibuzz (1,2), Medicham (1,4), Shiftry 2, Togekiss 4

What this speed range has in common is that Kangaskhan outspeeds them before Mega Evolution and KOs many threats like Sawk, Toxicroak, Medicham, Blaziken and Gardevoir with Return. Articuno4 has Tailwind/Blizzard and would be KO'd by double targeting with Timid, though Fake Out + Return is also a KO.
 
If I were to use an Adamant Talonflame in the Maison, which spread should I go for? Can I neglect speed and focus on HP to make it bulkier? Or should I max speed even though I'll be relying on Gale Wings Brave Bird for damage (possibly Acrobatics, I'll see which one works best)?

Edit: I'm planning a team for ORAS Battle Maison/Battle Tower Single Mode, which won't be that different from XY's. I'm trying to find a nice partner for Mega Sceptile and Talonflame came off as good candidate. It can deal with fire types, switch into an ice type move (and even thaw itself out with Flare Blitz should the worst happen - and we know it always does) and attracts Electric and Water moves Mega Sceptile has no problem dealing with.

So I was thinking that at least electric pokémon won't be a problem, since Mega Sceptile will be able to outspeed even Jolteon (and even if it doesn't - really unlikely - Jolteon and Electrode - lol - will be the only electric types to watch out for), switch into the electric move the AI is pretty much guaranteed to use and OHKO back with +1 Sp.Atk. And since fast electric types can be dealt with, maybe I'd be better off focusing on HP to tank Ice Beams better.

But you guys have much more experience than me. Any flaws in my reasoning? What third member would you guys suggest?

Edit²: Also, I don't want this to turn into speculation in any way. So regard my question as merely: is it viable to run an Adamant Talonflame with no Speed in the current Maison when I got a Lightning Rod Sceptile (assuming Tile's current stats and STAB Dragon Pulse and maybe factoring in a LO to increase its damage output) to cover electric types - and water and rock types to an extent?
 
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