Gen 3 BL shrink proposal

#1
The BL tier of gen 3 is rediculously overcrowded (41 mons as oposed to 11 in gen 4!) and I wanted to move some of them to OU. (Heck, there are currently more BLs than OUs in gen 3). So I was looking for some candidates by looking at the usage statistics of november, october and august (I couldn't find any of september). I've listed here all BL Pokémon with a relative usage in OU higher than 3%.

Code:
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | 
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 16   | Forretress      | 240    | 14.417% |
 | 23   | Cloyster        | 130    |  7.809% |
 | 27   | Houndoom        | 84     |  5.046% |
 | 31   | Breloom         | 70     |  4.205% |
 | 34   | Machamp         | 56     |  3.364% |
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +
Code:
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + --------- + --------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | KOs/b     | Turns/b   | 
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + --------- + --------- + 
 | 5    | Forretress      | 102    | 31.320% | 0.25±0.46 | 7.67±8.01 |
 | 21   | Cloyster        | 30     |  9.212% | 0.25±0.43 | 5.04±3.67 | 
 | 22   | Charizard       | 23     |  7.062% | 0.87±1.15 | 3.96±2.37 |
 | 26   | Scizor          | 20     |  6.141% | 0.45±0.74 | 3.80±3.34 | 
 | 33   | Houndoom        | 10     |  3.071% | 0.33±0.67 | 6.67±4.99 |
 | 34   | Ninjask         | 10     |  3.071% | 0.10±0.30 | 5.80±2.23 | 
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + --------- + --------- +
Code:
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | RealUse| RealPct | 
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 13   | Forretress      | 14     | 17.949% | 11     | 16.176% | 
 | 23   | Charizard       | 5      |  6.410% | 4      |  5.882% |
 | 24   | Slowbro         | 5      |  6.410% | 5      |  7.353% | 
 | 25   | Houndoom        | 5      |  6.410% | 4      |  5.882% | 
 | 30   | Jynx            | 4      |  5.128% | 3      |  4.412% |
 | 36   | Venusaur        | 3      |  3.846% | 3      |  4.412% |
 | 37   | Machamp         | 3      |  3.846% | 3      |  4.412% | 
 | 38   | Marowak         | 3      |  3.846% | 2      |  2.941% |
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
So it's evident that Forretress should be OU. Other possible candidates are Houndoom, Charizard and Cloyster. What do you guys think?
 
#2
I actually prefer the way BL works in Gen 3 to the way it works today. Why say that something is OU when it clearly isn't? (ie. Metagross) But i do agree with your point on Forretress, there is no reason why it shouldn't be OU
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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#5
Simply too few battles to be statistically significant. In one month a you gave a poke could be used three or four times and make OU, so it's not reliable.
 

Umby

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#6
Forretress deserves OU, but to repeat what's been said, the tiers are outdated (See: Ludicolo is still OU when it's more of a BL guy). Cloyster can be OU, but it's got enough short-comings to combat all of its good points, affecting its overall viability. Everything else in BL can stay put.
 
#7
I don't see a point to redoing the BL/OU tiers in Adv. If you think a BL mon is good enough to use in OU, use it. It's too underrepresented and quite frankly everyone who does play or is willing to give it a try I'm sure would rather stick to the metagame as it is so as to prevent unnecessary confusion.
 
#8
yea the stats might not be statistically significant, but that bit of data and common sense is enough to reasonably move the pokemon around. i think he brings up a good point. at first glance it might seem unnecesary to update them, but with smogon tour hosting adv ou, it be cool for newer players to know about some pokemon that are actually ou material just not currently included. i dont mind helping out, ill try to post what i think should be ou/bl later. also, remember its not like its a huge revamp, so i dont think it will cause much confusion in that sense. hopefully this comes to the attention of someone with 'power'.
 

gene

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#9
there are a few changes that could be made... the list is very old but most of it is alright.

donphan, dnite, jolteon, ludicolo, medicham, sceptile, slaking, umbreon, weezing -> bl

cloyster, forretress, jynx, tauros -> ou

(i don't think that the bl tier should shrink)
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
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#11
It seems like the earlier-gen tier lists were made with BL being a dumping ground for "really good UU Pokemon" and "pretty mediocre or situationally useful OU Pokemon". In recent, more scientifically-managed generations, it's just a UU banlist, reserved for a very select few, that denotes its members as too good for UU, but not used enough in OU play to be considered as such.

It might just be an issue of semantics, but putting enough Pokemon that could conceivably make up their own competitive tier into the no-man's land that is BL just seems silly. Why not make another tier, or actually list the things that are usable in OU as OU? Other than inertia, that is.
 
#12
ok got some time, these are the changes i think should be taken into consideration -

OU down to BL

Sceptile (50/50)
Slaking (50/50)
Dragonite
Ludicolo
Umbreon
Weezing
Donphan

BL up to OU

Cloyster
Forretress
Tauros (50/50)
Charizard (50/50)

EDIT: if we go solely by usage stats than we would also have to bring up more BL pokemon to OU. blaziken is definitely OU. he seems to stay reasonably constant in usage, but if you notice sceptile, he keeps decreasing in usage over time while other bl pokemon increase in usage over time. i think we should add some common sense into the formula considering this is a 3rd gen tier we are dealing with.

EDIT2: yea you are logical (not sarcasm), just insert 'general knowledge' where ever you see 'common sense' if thats the basis of this argument. in a nutshell, good players tend to see Tauros as a more efficient complement to their team when compared to Slaking, and usage doesn't necessarily reflect knowledge.

EDIT3: after talking to a couple of players i feel sceptile and tauros are 50/50 in their shifts down and up respectively -_-
 

Pocket

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#13
Based on August and October's usage, where there is respectable amount of ADV battles, Sceptile and Blaziken should be kept OU.

Although Slaking is a dangerous OU threat, the usage doesn't show this, so I guess it should go BL. Tauros is also a considerable OU threat, but the usage doesn't show this at all. It should stay in BL. Personally, Slaking > Tauros in terms of OU material, since Slaking can literally punch through everything, which is really useful in earlier generations. Its Traunt ability is not much of a liability in ADV than it is now. The past month's usage also reflects this.

EDIT: Err, I'm pretty sure I'm being perfectly logical here, ENZ0. My main beef is bringing up Tauros to OU and bringing down Slaking to BL when:

1) Slaking > Tauros in terms of usage
2) Slaking > Tauros in terms of viability in OU (ok, this is arguable; they are roughly the same in terms of viability, so they should reside in the same tier at the very least)