1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen 3 BL shrink proposal

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by grrgrrgrr1000, Dec 10, 2011.

  1. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    The BL tier of gen 3 is rediculously overcrowded (41 mons as oposed to 11 in gen 4!) and I wanted to move some of them to OU. (Heck, there are currently more BLs than OUs in gen 3). So I was looking for some candidates by looking at the usage statistics of november, october and august (I couldn't find any of september). I've listed here all BL Pokémon with a relative usage in OU higher than 3%.

    August 2011 (open)
    Code:
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | 16   | Forretress      | 240    | 14.417% |
     | 23   | Cloyster        | 130    |  7.809% |
     | 27   | Houndoom        | 84     |  5.046% |
     | 31   | Breloom         | 70     |  4.205% |
     | 34   | Machamp         | 56     |  3.364% |
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + 
    


    October 2011 (open)
    Code:
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + --------- + --------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | KOs/b     | Turns/b   | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + --------- + --------- + 
     | 5    | Forretress      | 102    | 31.320% | 0.25±0.46 | 7.67±8.01 |
     | 21   | Cloyster        | 30     |  9.212% | 0.25±0.43 | 5.04±3.67 | 
     | 22   | Charizard       | 23     |  7.062% | 0.87±1.15 | 3.96±2.37 |
     | 26   | Scizor          | 20     |  6.141% | 0.45±0.74 | 3.80±3.34 | 
     | 33   | Houndoom        | 10     |  3.071% | 0.33±0.67 | 6.67±4.99 |
     | 34   | Ninjask         | 10     |  3.071% | 0.10±0.30 | 5.80±2.23 | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + --------- + --------- + 
    


    November 2011 (open)
    Code:
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | RealUse| RealPct | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | 13   | Forretress      | 14     | 17.949% | 11     | 16.176% | 
     | 23   | Charizard       | 5      |  6.410% | 4      |  5.882% |
     | 24   | Slowbro         | 5      |  6.410% | 5      |  7.353% | 
     | 25   | Houndoom        | 5      |  6.410% | 4      |  5.882% | 
     | 30   | Jynx            | 4      |  5.128% | 3      |  4.412% |
     | 36   | Venusaur        | 3      |  3.846% | 3      |  4.412% |
     | 37   | Machamp         | 3      |  3.846% | 3      |  4.412% | 
     | 38   | Marowak         | 3      |  3.846% | 2      |  2.941% |
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
    


    So it's evident that Forretress should be OU. Other possible candidates are Houndoom, Charizard and Cloyster. What do you guys think?
  2. The Goddamn Batman

    The Goddamn Batman

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    Messages:
    98
    I actually prefer the way BL works in Gen 3 to the way it works today. Why say that something is OU when it clearly isn't? (ie. Metagross) But i do agree with your point on Forretress, there is no reason why it shouldn't be OU
  3. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    874
    Smogon ADV tiers are pretty oudated and nobody plays BL anyway
  4. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    Good point. It prevents an overcrowded NU tier.
  5. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    Simply too few battles to be statistically significant. In one month a you gave a poke could be used three or four times and make OU, so it's not reliable.
  6. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,501
    Forretress deserves OU, but to repeat what's been said, the tiers are outdated (See: Ludicolo is still OU when it's more of a BL guy). Cloyster can be OU, but it's got enough short-comings to combat all of its good points, affecting its overall viability. Everything else in BL can stay put.
  7. Alan

    Alan

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,809
    I don't see a point to redoing the BL/OU tiers in Adv. If you think a BL mon is good enough to use in OU, use it. It's too underrepresented and quite frankly everyone who does play or is willing to give it a try I'm sure would rather stick to the metagame as it is so as to prevent unnecessary confusion.
  8. ENZ0

    ENZ0
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,347
    yea the stats might not be statistically significant, but that bit of data and common sense is enough to reasonably move the pokemon around. i think he brings up a good point. at first glance it might seem unnecesary to update them, but with smogon tour hosting adv ou, it be cool for newer players to know about some pokemon that are actually ou material just not currently included. i dont mind helping out, ill try to post what i think should be ou/bl later. also, remember its not like its a huge revamp, so i dont think it will cause much confusion in that sense. hopefully this comes to the attention of someone with 'power'.
  9. gene

    gene GENE
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL + WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,723
    there are a few changes that could be made... the list is very old but most of it is alright.

    donphan, dnite, jolteon, ludicolo, medicham, sceptile, slaking, umbreon, weezing -> bl

    cloyster, forretress, jynx, tauros -> ou

    (i don't think that the bl tier should shrink)
  10. AJC

    AJC

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    2,265
    advance is a dead meta outside of smog tour or any other gen 3 tours there is pretty much no real reason to mess with it now.
  11. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,227
    It seems like the earlier-gen tier lists were made with BL being a dumping ground for "really good UU Pokemon" and "pretty mediocre or situationally useful OU Pokemon". In recent, more scientifically-managed generations, it's just a UU banlist, reserved for a very select few, that denotes its members as too good for UU, but not used enough in OU play to be considered as such.

    It might just be an issue of semantics, but putting enough Pokemon that could conceivably make up their own competitive tier into the no-man's land that is BL just seems silly. Why not make another tier, or actually list the things that are usable in OU as OU? Other than inertia, that is.
  12. ENZ0

    ENZ0
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,347
    ok got some time, these are the changes i think should be taken into consideration -

    OU down to BL

    Sceptile (50/50)
    Slaking (50/50)
    Dragonite
    Ludicolo
    Umbreon
    Weezing
    Donphan

    BL up to OU

    Cloyster
    Forretress
    Tauros (50/50)
    Charizard (50/50)

    EDIT: if we go solely by usage stats than we would also have to bring up more BL pokemon to OU. blaziken is definitely OU. he seems to stay reasonably constant in usage, but if you notice sceptile, he keeps decreasing in usage over time while other bl pokemon increase in usage over time. i think we should add some common sense into the formula considering this is a 3rd gen tier we are dealing with.

    EDIT2: yea you are logical (not sarcasm), just insert 'general knowledge' where ever you see 'common sense' if thats the basis of this argument. in a nutshell, good players tend to see Tauros as a more efficient complement to their team when compared to Slaking, and usage doesn't necessarily reflect knowledge.

    EDIT3: after talking to a couple of players i feel sceptile and tauros are 50/50 in their shifts down and up respectively -_-
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    Based on August and October's usage, where there is respectable amount of ADV battles, Sceptile and Blaziken should be kept OU.

    Although Slaking is a dangerous OU threat, the usage doesn't show this, so I guess it should go BL. Tauros is also a considerable OU threat, but the usage doesn't show this at all. It should stay in BL. Personally, Slaking > Tauros in terms of OU material, since Slaking can literally punch through everything, which is really useful in earlier generations. Its Traunt ability is not much of a liability in ADV than it is now. The past month's usage also reflects this.

    EDIT: Err, I'm pretty sure I'm being perfectly logical here, ENZ0. My main beef is bringing up Tauros to OU and bringing down Slaking to BL when:

    1) Slaking > Tauros in terms of usage
    2) Slaking > Tauros in terms of viability in OU (ok, this is arguable; they are roughly the same in terms of viability, so they should reside in the same tier at the very least)

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)