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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. Virizion


    Mar 27, 2011
    I just watched a SubSeed Cottonee beat Raikou, Regigigas, and Thundurus in a Battle Subway video, which brings up the question: Is the only reason for not using SubSeed being that it's too tedious and boring to sit through? I mean, the opponent never switches (The Thundurus spammed Sky Drop [which always failed] on Cottonee behind a Substitute, for example), so it's perfectly viable. The person had Volcarona and Starmie as their two other Pokémon, assumingly for Grass- and Poison-types.

    Note that I'm aware everyone already knows this strategy, I'm just asking why it isn't more popular.

    @ Stylo
    I searched the "Palmer 1" video on the B/W battle videos thing (yes, I'm aware it doesn't work) and it came up with a video of the 7th battle in the Subway. What are the chances of that?
  2. DrDimentio


    Aug 29, 2009
    "Platinum Battle Tower" with a screenshot that's clearly from HG/SS... what's up with that? Also, how could you possibly get such a streak with Shuckle lacking Substitute and being extremely slow even at +6? That's just asking for any super-effective crit to end the streak...
  3. skitz0phrenic


    Feb 23, 2011
    It is viable, however there are a couple of things that can really mess with it.

    The first thing that comes to mind would be Substitute getting all of it's PP drained very quickly against one of the later all-legendary teams, such as a Zapdos/Suicune/Entei lineup.

    Phasing moves could also be a nuisance, and multi-hit moves would likely just kill you and your sub. I'm not sure if you're talking about Lv. 1 Cottonee or not, but still, multi-hit moves would hurt the strategy.

    Virizion (lulz) would likely become one of your biggest threats being immune to LS, but you do have two other team slots for dedicated Grass/Poison/Liquid Ooze counters.

    And yes, there is also the bit you mentioned about it being horrendously boring and taking a ton of time.
  4. Zacchaeus

    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 5, 2009
    I actually had less success using Dragon Pulse on Choice Specs Latios in my DragMag team than Draco Meteor. And after so much usage, I'm laying that team to rest for a while.

    I have very high hopes for my new team though, and I'll give you a hint, it revolves around Durant

    Edit: Nevermind that team was shit just like the rest of my last 5 team ideas
  5. Eelektrawss


    Jul 30, 2010
    Oh shit, you're totally right, it's SS not Plat. I should probably change that.. >.>

    I did get critted quite a bit, and I lost a streak of ~200 to SE crits. Most of the crits though came on neutral hits so I guess I just got lucky. Also, I usually only set Shuckle up an status moves or things I know he can handle and get a full set up.

    I can provide more proof if necessary, I totally understand if my stupidity has caused some concerns with legitimacy.

    Edit: While I've lost my Plat, I do have my SS, so I can post how I lost. I'll edit this into my op as well.

    Reporter Elaine: Raichu3, Slowbro2, Manectric4

    Latios Tricks, Raichu Signal Beams, I TWave after he SB's again and then I Memento. Empoleon comes out and Subs. Raichu is fully paralyzed and Empy uses Agility. I use Surf and take a SB, raichu is paralyzed again and Surf KO's. Manectric comes out and I Surf, he survives with little very little HP. He breaks my Sub with Tbolt (crit) and I sub again. He Tbolts again and breaks my Sub. I sub again and activate Petaya, and he breaks my sub with Tbolt. I surf for the KO. Slowbro come out and I'm naked with 41 HP left.I surf for a bit more than 50% and he EQ's for the KO. Shuckle comes out and gets Aqua Tailed leaving him with 48 HP, I EQ for little damage and he KO's with Aqua Tail. Water PKMN in the right place killed the streak. ¬¬

    Thanks for pointing that out, and again, sorry for any confusion.
  6. flavor0


    Mar 25, 2011
    Super Doubles Win Steak: 89

    Rana (F)
    Item: Choice Specs
    Ability: Drizzle
    Nature: Modest
    IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Lv50 Stats: 165 78 95 156 121 122
    - Surf
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast

    Gets the rain going and spam absurdly powerful Surfs. Ice Beam handles dragons and grass types, while Hydro Pump and Focus Blast have situational uses. Solid natural bulk, even without investment, allows her to survive a surprising amount of attacks.

    Toxicroak (M)
    Item: Black Sludge
    Ability: Dry Skin
    Nature: Adamant
    IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Lv50 Stats: 159 173 85 95 85 137
    - Fake Out
    - Drain Punch
    - Sucker Punch
    - Protect

    Fantastic leading partner with Politoed. Fake Out + rain boosted Surf is usually enough to KO threats; if not, Sucker Punch finishes them off. Between healings from Dry Skin, Black Sludge, and Drain Punch, Toxicroak can go from a sliver of health back to almost full within the span of a single turn. Protect is useful for avoiding obvious psychic/flying/ground attacks, providing a bit of extra healing, and scouting. I have considered changing Toxicroak's item to something that boosts his damage (thinking Muscle Band, a plate, or a gem) since Black Sludge healing is not always all that helpful.
    *Random note about Dry Skin: seeing as Politoed resists water, CPUs love to repeatedly spam water attacks at Toxicroak despite his immunity

    Nathaniel (M)
    Item: Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Nature: Modest
    IVs: 30/x/31/30/31/31
    EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
    Lv50 Stats: 151 61 145 182 90 101
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - HP: Grass
    - Shell Smash

    Omastar is a solid backup for Politoed, providing comparable damage output while boasting higher speed under rain and freedom of move choice. HP: Grass is fantastic for smashing those annoying Water/Grounds, namely Gastrodon and Quagsire. 208 speed EVs put Omastar at 202 speed in the rain or out of rain with a Shell Smash, allowing him to outspeed scarfSkarm and everything slower. I've debated moving the HP EVs to speed so Omastar can outspeed a few more things in the rain w/o a Shell Smash, though. Getting a Shell Smash in almost guarantees a win, so...

    Penny (F)
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Dry Skin
    Nature: Careful
    IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
    EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
    Lv50 Stats: 167 115 120 72 123 50
    - X-Scissor
    - Spore
    - Rage Powder
    - Protect

    Parasect provides fantastic support not only to Omastar, but to the entire team. Rage Powder is the key, allowing Omastar to Smash or Politoed and Toxicroak to spam powerful attacks. Parasect's typing meshes extremely well with Omastar and Politoed - she resists the grass, electric, ground, and fighting attacks aimed at them, making prediction easy. Conversely, Protect saves her from obvious fire, flying, and poison attacks, as well as giving her some free healing. A second Dry Skin user is fantastic in the event that Toxicroak goes down early, allowing Politoed and Omastar to use Surf without fear. Spore proves useful as well, shutting down mons that aren't immediately threatening but can set up. X-Scissor is solid STAB that has the benefit of hitting psychic types that plague Toxicroak super-effectively.

    Overall, this team is a lot of fun to play with. It took quite a while to learn its weakness and it underwent many tweaks along the way. The two leads have remained constant, but I've tried Dragonite (Hurricane/Thunder abuse), Virizion, Weavile, SB Sharpedo, and LO Starmie in the wings. Despite many changes, this team isn't perfect: teams packing an opposing weather starter can be a little rough. Those with multiple either fast or bulky electric/grass types can be problematic as well, though it depends largely on the other team members as well as their lineup order. Legendary teams leading with two major threats at once (Zapdos, Thundurus, Raikou, etc) have ended many streaks.

    Picture for proof: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/img0020nr.jpg/
    Smuckem likes this.
  7. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    So I tried out my rain team that I posted about a while back. It was bost a success and a failure. On the one hand, Politoed and Amoongus made a great duo. Amoongus sat there spamming Rage Powder while Politoed destroyed everything with rain/specs-boosted Hydro Pumps. Magnezone and Kingdra were great too. Magnezone's Thunders hurt like hell and Kingdra is amazing in the rain.

    The downsides? Well, Hydro Pump is just too inaccurate to spam. I was fine with using Hydro Pump on Rotom-W for my singles team as it wasn't using it almost every turn (and it had no other alternatives anyway), but when I experienced numerous instances where Hydro Pump missed 2 and even 3 times in a row, I knew that the strategy would not be worthwhile in the long run. I tried Scald (I couldn't use Surf on Amoongus obviously), and it was still ok, but the power difference was definitely noticeable and the strategy just wasn't effective anymore :(

    Weather teams were also annoying. I'm not talking about the auto-inducers, as they can be played around and I can just reactivate my rain with little issue. The main problem was the manual-inducers. They put pressure on my team to kill them, and then I have to reactivate my weather. Meanwhile, I have no rain and I'm vulnerable (my team was terrible in the rain).

    I was never able to get a good streak with it; I think my best was about 25 or something. Oh well. Still, Rage Powder/Follow Me worked really well and I think it has potential. It's just a shame the moves have such terrible distribution. I might fool around with the strategy again with a different team.

    Looking at flavor0's team, maybe I should have used Parasect instead of Amoongus. Then I could have used Surf. Nevermind. At least someone has had success with Rage Powder.

    Anyway, I've been trying another team: a Regigigas team! I won't post the whole team, but my strategy was:

    Regigigas @ Life Orb

    Drain Punch
    Ice Punch


    Xatu @ Choice Scarf

    Skill Swap
    Shadow Ball
    Grass Knot

    I had lots of options for partners of Regigigas (unlike Truant, pretty much every ability changing method works). I chose Xatu because it allowed Regigigas to gain Magic Bounce, protecting it from pretty much everything except direct attacks. Putting Gengar to sleep with its own Hypnosis and paralyzing Froslass with its own Thunder Wave has been satisfying. If possible, Xatu can pass Slow Start onto an opponent to nerf them, which makes battles alot easier. This doesn't happen often though because Xatu is too frail (and slow when it gets Slow Start) so it usually dies before then (it still served its purpose though).

    Unsurprisingly, it hasn't gotten far. I think the main problem with the team is that Regigigas, strong as it is, isn't actually strong enough. Life Orb-boosted Return has fallen just short of a OHKO on almost everything. Maybe I should try Choice Band? Another problem is the existance of fighting types that outspeed Regigigas, especially Sawk because it has Sturdy and can OHKO with Close Combat. It's compounded by the fact that I can't simply switch out Regigigas and bring it in latter because then I have to try and find an opportunity to pair it with Xatu again to remove Slow Start (this is easier said than done).

    Before I go, I though I might go over the next thing I'm gonna try. Simple Beam. I'm interested in trying it out. The move has poor distribution (Audino, Beeheeyem, Delcatty and Linoone are the only things that get it that are legal; Genesect gets it too), but I think it still has potential. I'll probably use Linoone as it is the fastest user of those four. Now I just have to pair it up with an appropriate user, and find suitable teammates to cover my weak spots. A Shell Smash user is tempting (4+/4+/4+ in one turn? YES!!!) but that might be difficult to pull off. We'll see though :)
  8. DrDimentio


    Aug 29, 2009
    lol, it's a good thing we have observant people like myself in this thread!

    It sucks to lose high streaks like that when they're not even high by the record standards; while trying to beat my 646 Platinum streak I lost at around 430 in HeartGold. We'd probably be more likely to ask for extra proof if this were a Black and White streak, and if it was in the top 3. Nonetheless, 500+ with Shuckle on your team is impressive.
  9. Eelektrawss


    Jul 30, 2010
    Yea, it's rather depressing to make it that far and get stopped short. My main goal was to at least break 200, it took me 3 teams to do it and for some reason the most unlikely one made it the farthest. Go figure, and thank you. ^^
  10. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 27, 2011
    i dont really play doubles much but this sounds like a very good doubles team congrats for actually using parasect effectively
  11. fluffyflyingpig


    Jan 9, 2009
    Blah. Lost again at 333ish in embarrassing fashion. Hydration Rest/Stockpile/Surf/Rain Dance Dewgong is apparently really hard to kill if you give it a few turns to set up, who knew?

    The master excel list is amazing, thanks again peterko. Using the find function I can quickly highlight all threats with priority/protect/OHKO Latios/outspeed threats/sash/scarf. The biggest threat identified? The the same Shiftry 4. The big Latios OHKO list from earlier is missing the Scarf Headsmash Ramp, btw.

    Made a few tweeks. Infernape now has Flamethrower over Overheat after a few too many Overheat misses. Biggest problem wih this is missing the OHKO on Occa Scizor, idk. I do like not missing, and Scizor isn't too common. I may need to revisit the EVs or go back to Overheat, but for now it is good enough.

    More interestingly is Latios:
    Latios@Choice Specs
    Dragon Pulse

    Bizarre looking, isn't it? Two Psychic attacks on the same set, and Protect on a Choice set? Thunderbolt really is more of a luxury than anything else, and was never really used since Infernape covered Steels so well. Someone called Conkledurr a fat jerk a while ago, and the description is apt. Flung Iron Balls OHKO Latios, and Psyshock does not OHKO, so Psychic is back as the move of choice vs fighting trainers. With the list the stupid hail hax trainers are far and away the biggest threat, and Psyshock is the most useful attack against them, so Psyshock keeps a slot even though it is only ever used against one type of trainer and the odd Blissey. There really isn't anything better for Latios to learn for the last slot, but Protect gives some very useful flexibility stalling out Trick Room and dealing with Sucker Punch or double targeting Latios. Yes, I need to switch out the next turn, but I'm only using it when I would be switching out anyway and it's saved me a bunch of times now. Protect probably sees more use than Psyshock!

    I've gotten much better at dealing with Trick Room, now that I realized all Psychics and Harlequins have only one set. The biggest threats are hail workers, distantly followed by legendary trainers, if only because they have so many things that potentially outspeed me. Hydra stays at max speed timid to better deal with this. Fighting trainers are actually somewhat dangerous since Fighting/Fire/Steel can make a bunch of bad matchups and is worth giving Latios Psychic. A much bigger threat than Fishermen any rate.
  12. DrDimentio


    Aug 29, 2009
    While experimenting with some of my possible new Pokemon in various team combinations, I decided against using Drapion because:

    1. It's so incredibly tedious to set up; makes Registeel seem fun in comparison.
    2. I lost even with 2 other Pokemon being used to allow an easy Drapion set-up, partly due to Hail canceling HP recovery, but also due to the more common situation of not getting enough Acupressures because the lead's locked move has low PP.

    It's weird that they improved the AI by making it switch out if locked into a status/useless move, yet if it's not locked into said status move they'll spam it as though they are. This has led me to rethink my entire strategy. I'm taking a while to adjust to the new Subway mechanics; being a Tower veteran doesn't seem to help much.

    Also, the issue of Dragons. Here are the main selling points of various dragon sweepers:

    Haxorus - Mold Breaker. Considering how many things have Sturdy, the ability sells it. I've tested it and found it more effective than Salamence. The extra power is another bonus.

    Garchomp - Swords Dance, STAB Earthquake. Obviously Haxorus can also use SD, but unlike Garchomp isn't fast enough for it. The Subway introduces enough faster threats that Garchomp's speed is no longer a main selling point. Its physical bulk is also slightly less than Salamence's due to Intimidate.

    Salamence - Intimidate, GREEN. I'd say it's less effective in the Subway than it was in 4th gen. But it's still green.

    Altaria - Well, if you had to choose between that and Druddigon...
  13. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 20, 2005
    1. Nice streak again, it´s been a long time since I was anywhere near 200 lol but I´ve been testing out stuff.

    2. Thanks, hoped it would help people.

    3. I admit I was awaiting the switch to Flamethrower on Ape. You should make some damage calcs to see if you have to give it a few spA EVs and how many exactly while not losing important KOs with Close Combat.

    4. You might as well change Psychic to another move if your only reason for using it, is Conkeldurr. Here´s the calcs:

    Conkeldurr 1 65 Black Belt Rock Slide Force Palm SmellingSalt Bulk Up Bold HP/Def/SpD
    Conkeldurr 2 *29 Iron Ball Mach Punch Hammer Arm Bulk Up Fling Brave Atk/SpD
    Conkeldurr 3 65 Sitrus Berry Bulk Up Drain Punch Payback Stone Edge Adamant Atk/SpD
    Conkeldurr 4 *29 Iron Ball Fling Rock Slide Superpower Mach Punch Brave Atk/SpD

    You see, Conk1 is not really a threat, on the other hand sets 2, 3 and 4 OHKO Latios with Fling, Payback, Fling, accordingly. All three of them have a 255 atk/255 sD spread with a +attack nature.

    That means, in numbers, Conkeldurr 2/3/4 has 180 HP, 115 defense and 117 special defense.

    273 spA Latios Psyshock does 216-254 damage, which is a clear OHKO.
    273 spA Latios Psychic does 236-282 damage, which is even a clearer OHKO.
    Oh wait, there´s no difference between a 100% OHKO from Psyshock and a 100% OHKO from Psychic on Conk234.

    LO Latios:
    182 spA LO Latios Psyshock does 186-222 damage, in other words it always OHKOs Conk234.
    182 spA LO Latios Psychic does 204-242 damage, which is surprisingly (or not) a 100% OHKO on Conk234.


    by the way, related to the other topic from DrDimentio, here´s some "engame" calcs for Haxorus (218 attack x4):

    vs Skarmory 172HP/160def, 150HP after stealth rock
    - Dual Chop = 122-144 (61-72 x2)
    - Dragon Claw = 123-144
    - Dragon Fang Dragon Claw = 147-174
    - Dragon Fang Dual Chop = 148-174 (74-87 x2)
    - Outrage = 183-216

    Aggron 1 Sturdy+Focus Sash+Roar (177 HP / 220 def)

    The Skarmory/Aggron combo means that it´s almost impossible to get past both without Stealth Rock and they will Roar/WW you away. You´d need some kind of Icicle Spear / Bonemerang combination, I haven´t checked but I don´t think there is a multi-hit combo that KOs both.

    Now after SR damage, even a fully set up Outrage from Garchomp will always OHKO Skarmory (obviously Sala does as well). Thanks to SR, sturdy/sash doesn´t matter so there would be no important reason to use Haxorus with Mold Breaker over something like Salamence.
  14. DrDimentio


    Aug 29, 2009
    When I made the point about extra power I was thinking more about situations where Haxorus can only get one or two Dragon Dances (compared to a Salamence in the same situation), and being able to KO certain bulky Pokemon after the boosts. Wouldn't you agree with the fact that Salamence would miss out on some KOs that Haxorus would get, when few or no Attack boosts are involved? It's not like they can be expected to get to +6 in every battle.

    Also, why would anyone use Dual Chop when it has only 90% accuracy? As for your mention of Stealth Rock, have you been testing that out? I haven't used that move since my Scizor 196 team back in Platinum. It's competing for a place with other essential moves...

    By the way, are you biased against Haxorus for any particular reason? I find its pure Dragon-typing and Mold Breaker preferable to the Rock weakness and Electric neutrality of Salamence.
  15. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 20, 2005
    no it´s quite the oposite, I would like to try it in the Subway for the the reasons you mentioned (I´ve actually used it in VGC). Well I considered Dual Chop because it bypasses Focus Sash. Also, currently, I have lots of (way too many) theorymons going on...things like Hone Claw pass to Head Smash/Iron Tail Aggron etc.

    No I´ve never used Stealth Rock in my life lol, but the fact that it does what it does is quite appealing. Maybe I would try a Stealth Rock Ferrothorn with Iron Defense, Leech Seed and Power Whip, with Rocky Helmet as its held item...no idea how that would work as I don´t have that much exp with Ferrothorn.

    I´ve bred one last week and used the same set TRE created on a team with lead Cloyster, but it didn´t work that well as they share a Fighting weakness and the AI always countered my last Pokémon (example Latios with Volca or Chomp with a bulky water+ice move/Weavile) and all that was < battle #29...

    In fact, as fun as Cloyster is to play (mostly the amazing feeling of Shell Smash Skill Link Icicle Spear 3-0ing teams), I haven´t even gotten to 35 with it...maybe it´s not that good or maybe I just suck so much lol. Also the 75 BP Physical Water move sucks badly so next time I´ll go Naughty with Surf or even Hydro Pump (lol no). Rock Blast is OK but boy 90 acc with such a set up mon feels like 50/50 in the Subway.

    I´ve used it with Scizor/Latios and Scizor/Garchomp as partners, nothing worked. Worst one was when Cloy lost to Hyper Beaming Wailord because Rock Blast missed...

    anyway, I have also tested lead Multiscale Dragonite (the same as Zacch) and that worked out better...lol no it didn´t. Its partners were Ferro+Cune, but I lost to Poliwrath at like #18...last time I lost before 35 or something because Empo got the berry boost, CH surfed the setting up cune with its 7th surf and then froze Ferro with Blizzard...

    So I thought that it would be wiser to use DD/Roost with Lum or something, because half of the time Multiscale is gotten rid of by Fake Out or isn´t helpful (+1 empo blizzard) or the AI counters it in another way...that being said, big props to Zacch for coming that far with CB lead Dragonite

    Lol my recent "what the hell" streak was with a lead Machamp to say FU accuracy (you´ll know why when I post about my latest OmaTop streak)...and it did surprisingly well (as in: I use random stuff and hope to get to 49). I used CB in the first 7 but then switched to Scarf and that´s quite amazing. Looking at the speed tiers, I noticed that Jolly > Adamant (many reasons but main one so that Cryo doesn´t Sheer Cold it...no idea if Pinsir would go for the Guillotine though lol), so I´ll test that when I breed a Jolly one tomorrow. Btw. the team was Machamp/Zapdos/Metagross and I lost at around #44 because I misplayed.
  16. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let marco in here????
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 13, 2005
    @ DrDimentio

    On the contrary, I find Salamence's immunity to Ground and resistance to Fighting extremely useful when pairing up with a set up steel-Pokemon, because you will not always be able to set them up via Trick alone. Intimidate is -very- useful due to Salamence's typing; you can afford to switch back and forth repeatedly and lower the target's Attack enough so somebody can set up. Also Salamence is much bulkier than Haxorus (95/80/80 vs 76/90/70. That's at least 2.5% more physical bulk (and not even factoring Intimidate), and 25.9% more special bulk, and can easily set up and keep its Substitutes alive.

    The only reason I'd use Haxorus over Salamence is for the Electric resist (and even then, Haxorus' base 70 spdef doesn't do it much favor). Mold Breaker is just a bonus. Rock neutrality isn't even much of an advantage either - most rock attackers are physical and Salamence/Steel Pokemon can quickly reduce that damage to nothing, while Haxorus takes a chunkload and can't do anything about it.
  17. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 23, 2004
    Speaking as someone who has tried to make Haxorus work in the singles subway, it just doesn't cut it due to its frail defenses. I've played with both Adamant and Jolly and while I think the added attack is the way to go, it's tough to really abuse something like Trick to get it going. Granted, you usually only need 2 DD's to mow through an opponent but sometimes you can only afford to get in one. Mold Breaker is a nice bonus but it won't save you against things with Focus Sash and with how hard it is to get a sub to stay up, you're going to get burned sooner or later.

    I actually think Dragonite is the probably the best dragon in terms of set up ability for singles. Multiscale is hands down an excellent ability and makes setting up a stable Substitute extremely easy. You can get some DD's and then just Roost away any damage. And while I haven't used Salamence yet this gen, I'm sure its set up ability is similar as highlighted by Jibaku.
  18. fluffyflyingpig


    Jan 9, 2009
    Looking forward to see what you guys come up with. I agree, even with two dedicated setup pokemon Drapion still had several really bad matchups.

    I confused the sets in that post, but I did get screwed in the past by Conkledurr 1 OHKOing Hydra because I couldn't kill it with Psyshock. In that sense it IS a threat, lol. Thanks for pointing my mistake out though :D While that was the impetus, Psychic seems useful enough to keep.

    Realistically, what else could Latios run? HP Fire? HP Dark? Thunderbolt? Grass Knot just to kill Mamo? Energy Ball? Even with Thunderbolt I dreaded using it vs Fishermen and Pilots due to random ground types and dragons that kept popping up.

    What are your guys' observations on AI attack selection? I'm particularly interested in understanding when they chose to use Fake Out/Protect/Detect/Sucker Punch and which attack they chose to KO weakened pokemon. I have never seen Meinshao use Fake Out, never seen Yanmega use Detect, and never seen Zoroark use Sucker Punch or do much of anything ever. I strongly suspect that Meinshao goes for the KO via Hi Jump Kick on Ape/Hydra instead of Fake Out. Likewise for Yanmega via Air Slash/Bug Buzz. Does this mesh with your experiences?

    I'm also having trouble understanding what attack the AI will pick to kill weakened pokemon. Sometimes they use the weakest attack the can that will still KO. Sometimes they use the strong attack again. Ape U-turn to Hydra into an Ice Beam just makes me sad.

  19. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let marco in here????
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 13, 2005
    I get Yanmega spamming Detect on me every other turn usually. Mienshao never seems to Fake Out in Doubles but always Fakes Out my Registeel's Substitutes in Singles, and I don't recall Zoroark Sucker Punching but it could have happened.

    I also often see the AI switching (yes) in doubles when I used Politoed/Ludicolo leads. Always to a Water Absorber, even though I might not be using a water attack at all on that turn. It performs the switch quite randomly I think - it happens now and then and sometimes it doesn't happen at all.

    The AI seems to enjoy activating Guts/Flash Fire via teammate attack.
  20. bluemon


    Oct 21, 2010
    in doubles, would lefties+toxic from a ally gliscor/breloom work well?
  21. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Dec 23, 2004
    Yeah, I'm not sure I fully understand some of the odd move selections the AI makes, either. I've had Zoroark end two separate doubles runs by getting a SD in and then spamming Sucker Punch. But then again, I can also recall making it out of a tough spot by Protecting against a Zoro Sucker Punch and then knocking it out next turn when it presumably used Night Slash instead. I rarely get Fake Out used against me in doubles and often times Will-O-Wisp gets used on a special attacker when I also have a physical attacker on the field. Things like Swampert just spam Mirror Coat or Counter with no regard to what I'm doing. AI will switch to Dry Skin, Water Absorb or Storm Drain pokemon, sometimes to my advantage. We all know they still spam water attacks at Toxicroak even though it doesn't damage it. They will use Earthquake/Surf sometimes even when it hurts their partner... other times they refuse to use it until there's a partner pokemon that's immune. Things like Metagross and Alakazam Trick their items without reason.. sometimes to the "right" pokemon and other times to the pokemon it has no effect on or even helps.
  22. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    May 3, 2005
    The CPU places top priority on attacks that can KO one of your Pokemon (there are a few exceptions like OHKO moves, Final Gambit, Explosion, Selfdestruct, attacks that hurt their ally and others). Meinshao can frequently do this with Hi Jump Kick so it rarely uses anything else. Same with Medicham 4. Trick and Trick Room are sometimes exceptions to this. The CPU will sometimes use those moves even though they can KO one of your Pokemon.

    Assuming they can't KO one of your Pokemon, the CPU will use Fake Out on turn 1 unless both of your Pokemon are immune. They will ignore Inner Focus and still use Fake Out. The targeting seems to be random if you have two non-Ghost Pokemon out.

    The use of Protect is fairly arbitrary. They use it when they want to. Like with Fake Out, an attack that can KO will take priority over Protect.

    Sucker Punch usage is a bit weird. If they have two moves that can KO you, one is Sucker Punch and the other isn't, they will favor the non-Sucker Punch attack. If Sucker Punch is the only move they have that will KO a Pokemon, they will use it. They are more likely to Sucker Punch Taunted Pokemon.

    I'm not sure how they decide which attack to use to KO a weakened Pokemon if they have multiple.

    If the CPU Pokemon gets hit by an attack, sometimes they switch to a Pokemon immune to that type of attack on the next turn. Sometimes they do this even if the Pokemon using the attack they are trying to absrob via immunity is already KO'd.

    For example here's a made up example of what could happen:
    Whimsicott, Typhlosion vs CPU Conkeldurr, CPU Magmortar

    Turn 1
    Whimsicott uses Tailwind
    Typhlosion uses Eruption
    CPU Magmortar uses Overhet. KO's Whimsicott.
    CPU Conkeldurr uses Superpower. KOs Typhlosion.
    Garchomp and Honchkrow are sent out.

    Turn 2
    CPU Conkeldurr switches out for Flareon.
    Garchomp uses Earthquake.
    Flareon and Magmortar are KO'd.

    The CPU heavily favors Trick is they are holding a Flame Orb, Toxic Orb or Choice Item. They peek at your item so they will never Trick targeting onto a Pokemon that has a Choice item, Toxic Orb or Flame Orb. I think Black Sludge is also included on this list. I would imagine Full Incense and Lagging Tail are also included but I'm not sure.
  23. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 20, 2005
    My Oma-Top post ended with the words: "Obviously, I´ll give this team more screen time, it´s just that I probably need a break to get my „skill“ back lol."

    #11: Rhyperior, Dusknoir, Gyarados, Volcarona
    1. FO rhy, shadow sneak, shell smash
    2. sucker punch failed, muddy water, rhy KO, trick room
    -> gyarados
    3. shadow sneak, waterfall Oma KO, sucker failed
    -> latios
    4. dusk fling OHKO latios, Top aerial ace KO Noir, Gyara giga impact
    -> Scizor / Volcarona
    5. Top aerial ace, flame body burn, Scizor bug bite KO volc, Gyara recharge, burn KO Top
    6. Scizor bug bite 40%, Gyara waterfall 60%, TR ended
    7. Scizor Bullet punch, Gyara waterfall KO

    Ahahahaha, losing at #11 is soo "raising my level of play"...

    #76 vs Ace Trainer Farley: Porygon2 & Mienshao
    1. Pory2 dowload spA raise, Top FO Pory2, Mien HJK, Focu Sash, Oma Shell Smash.
    2. Switched in Scizor to absorb the predicted Feint, Mien HJK, CH OHKO Scizor, Top AA 95% to Mien, Pory2 Tri Attack CH, Top fainted.
    - me Latios+Oma in
    3. Latios Dragon Pulse, Mien fainted, Oma Muddy Water, Pory2 accuracy fell, Pory2 Shadow Ball, Oma fainted.
    - oponent Arcanine, intimidate
    4. Latios DPulse, Pory2 fainted, Arca Crunch, Latios at 52/156 HP.
    - oponent Metagross
    5. Latios DPulse, Arca Sitrus Berry, Arca Crunch, Latios fainted.

    Apparently Mien4 is a kicker and doesn´t like FO nor Feint. I was really shocked at the double CH because I´m used to CH myself as I´m the one whose attacking, most of the time. Won´t even start on the insane Shell Smash in front of a priority Fighter, go me.

    Next streak...

    #78 vs Socialite: Zapdos, Cobalion, Thundurus, Suicune
    1. Top Fake Out, Zap avoided (#1), Zap DT, Coba ???, Oma Shell Smash.
    2. Top Mach Punch >50% dmg to Coba, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#2), Coba Iron Head Top, Zap DT.
    3. Top Mach Punch, Coba fainted, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#3), Zap DT.
    - oponent Thundurus
    4. Top Sucker Punch 48% dmg to Thund, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#4), Thund Thunderbolt, Oma Sash, Zap DT.
    5. Top Sucker Punch 48% dmg to Thund, Oma HP Rock, Zap avoided (#5), Thund Thunderbolt, Oma fainted, Zap Charge Beam (no boost), Top lives with <10 HP.
    - me Latios
    6. Top Mach Punch, Thund fainted, LO dmg, Top fainted, Latios Dragon Pulse, Zap avoided (#6), Zap Charge Beam (no boost).
    - me Scizor, oponent Suicune
    7. Latios DPulse Cune >50% dmg, Cune Icy Wind, Zap Heat Wave, Sizor fainted.
    8. Cune Blizzard, gg....no Latios avoided, Latios DPulse, Cune fainted, Zap Heat Wave (or DT).
    9. Latios DPulse 60% dmg, Zap Heat Wave.
    10. Latios DPulse, Zap avoided (#7), Zap DT.
    11. Latios DPulse, Zap avoided (#8), Zap Heat Wave CH, Latios <10 HP.
    12. Latios DPulse, Zap fainted.

    I hate that Subway Zapdos with a passion. With 197 HP / 115 def / 142 sD and BrightPowder+DT+Roost it´s almost impossible to take down once you start missing it, which you will. Pressure doesn´t help your cause either. It´s been a long time since I´ve been this annoyed (angry) during a battle, no wonder. Shell Smash HP Rock is a clear OHKO, which is amazing...if you hit. Honestly, I didn´t expect Latios to be the hero an actually pull off an impossible win. He did. The streak went on, until...

    #135 vs Roughneck Ganymed: Gliscor, Mamoswine, Wailord, Cryogonal
    1. Top Fake Out Mamo, Mamo avoided, Gliscor Acrobatics Top to 94/156 HP, Oma Shell Smash, Mamo Quake, Oma Sash, Top 9/156 HP.
    2. Top Sucker Punch Glisc, LO dmg, Top fainted, Oma Muddy Water, Glisc avoided, Mamo avoided, Mamo Quake, Oma fainted.
    - me Latios + Scizor
    3. Latios DPulse, Glisc fainted, Scizor SD, Mamo Quake Scizor to 78/156 HP.
    - oponent Wailord
    4. Scizor Bullet Punch, Mamo fainted, Latios DPulse 85% to Wailord, Wailord Hydro Pump, Scizor fainted.
    - oponent Cryogonal
    5. Latios DPulse, Wailord fainted, Cryo Blizzard, Latios fainted.

    Well, well, an ugly Fake Out miss due to Lax Incense followed by a double-miss with Muddy Water, f..k. Telling myself and everyone else that a double-miss hasn´t gotten me beaten yet was yesterday (actually, before Thursday). I do wonder though why I didn´t just attack with both turn1. FO+Ice Beam Gliscor or FO+Muddy Water or even Mach Punch+Muddy Water. A double miss in the latter scenario wouldn´t have been as bad.

    Next, I SD Scizor instead of attacking...Superpower OHKOs Mamoswine. Even at –1, Bullet Punch does like 140% min dmg to Cryogonal. Even BP+DP on Mamoswine and letting Gliscor do whatever it wants (supposedly U-Turn Latios) would´ve been better. Oh well, maybe I would´ve missed Mamo, because Lax Incense is the most evil item.

    Now Latios Dragon Pulse does 213-252 dmg / 277 HP (77-91%) to Wailord while Grass Knot is an OHKO. 6/12 Roughneck Pokémon are weak to Grass Knot (Mamo / Rhy / Whis / Phan / Wail / Walr), another 2 are hit hard by it (Basti/Glis), Rapi/Pins/Vanil/Cryo are bad for Grass Knot. But, it OHKOs Mamoswine, so I could´ve used GK+SD turn 3....

    Of course, Pokémon and everything else in life is not about „what if“...I lost the battle... so the fact still stands, that I achieved the highest streak with this team on the first try, which is weird.
  24. DrDimentio


    Aug 29, 2009
    I can relate, having used Cloyster for fun before. Since we've both failed to get decent streaks with it, we can probably conclude that it sucks in the Subway. Rock Blast's accuracy (and that crappy Water move I don't even want to name) ruins many sweeps.

    Yeah, the team context is arguably the most important factor when it comes to choosing a dragon. I have enough experience with Salamence in 4th gen, it was central to my 646-streak team as posted here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2493741&postcount=2138

    ... so I can completely understand all the advantages such as switching back and forth with Registeel to get Intimidates. As for its bulk, it was only just enough for its Substitutes to survive certain Tricked attacks such as Heatran's Magma Storm through Light Screen, but in the Subway the general power level of Pokemon has increased, so I'm sure there are more things that can break a Salamence Sub.

    I was mainly using it for fun (such as getting up to 49 quicker than with my main team) and experimentation, so I didn't have a team perfectly designed around it.

    I also used Adamant. I've been using methods other than Trick to set it up, though...

    I completely forgot Dragonite since I've never used it in the Tower/Subway... I also have no Dream World access, and can't get Multiscale.

    What are these 'really bad matchups' you speak of?
  25. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 20, 2005
    yet another doubles streak

    Pokémon Black Battle Subway Super Double Battle streak: 83

    1. Golurk „TITAN“
    Item: Expert Belt
    Ability: Iron Fist
    Nature: Adamant
    IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 8 / 31 / 31
    EV spread: 0 / 252 / 0 / 0 / 6 / 252
    Lv.50: 164 / 193 / 100 / 57 / 101 / 107
    ~ Shadow Punch
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Protect
    ~ Hammer Arm

    Initially, I wanted to use Golurk in the VGC because of its ability to survive almost all SE hits and OHKO a lot in return with an EV spread I spent quite some time working on (note that max atk/speed isn´t that spread, that´s rather not special). One of the coolest looking Pokémon and it´s really great, despite having so many weaknesses. Actually, the weaknesses draw lots of AI attacks to it and Protect gives its partner a free turn. Golurk itself hits very hard though. Sometimes I missed a Rock move, which lead to my loss. I would put Rock Slide over Hammer Arm and use and/or consider using a Muscle Band for an increase in power of neutral hits. I don´t think LO would be appropriate because Golurk survives many hits with just a few HP left even with a pumped up atk/spe.

    2. Zapdos „STORM“
    Item: Wide Lens
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Timid
    IVs: 26 / 31 / 26 / 31 / 27 / 31
    EV spread: 0 / 0 / 0 / 252 / 6 / 252
    Lv.50: 163 / 99 / 103 / 177 / 109 / 167
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Heat Wave
    ~ Detect
    ~ Hidden Power Ice 70

    I´ve used Zapdos a lot in the last two generations and now I almost forgot how amazing it is. Yes many things outspeed it nowadays, but the typing, coverage and Pressure + Detect still make it a viable monster in the Subway. 1% Heat Wave missing foe´s last Pokémon Ferrothorn made me smile.

    3. Ferrothorn (F)
    Item: Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    Nature: Sassy
    IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 3 / 31 / 0
    EV spread: 252 / 0 / 6 / 0 / 252 / 0
    Lv.50: 181 / 114 / 152 / 60 / 184 / 22
    ~ Gyro Ball
    ~ Rest
    ~ Curse
    ~ Leech Seed

    Wow, this is wonderful. There´s so many Subway Pokémon that can´t make it out alive past this, making it a great back-up Pokémon. Switching this into physical contact makes me happy, as the oponent loses 29,16% (7/24) of their HP. Now if it uses Leech Seed, which it will, that´s 41,66% (5/12) HP per turn and it´s not even using a damaging move yet lol. Great synergy with Golurk, superb under oponent´s TR. Curse for boosting defense, but it also strengthens Gyro Ball exponentially. The common set uses Substitute + Lefties, but Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet is too tempting for me and I wanted to use the combination as soon as the % were researched. No Lefties, so I gave it Rest. Now status doesn´t matter and it boosts Ferro´s stellar survivability even more. But stay away from Fire (and Fighting) or it´ll go down before you can blink.

    4. Latios (M) „DRAGON“
    Item: Choice Specs*
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
    EV spread: 6 / 0 / 0 / 252 / 0 / 252
    Lv.50: 156 / 99 / 100 / 273* / 130 / 178
    ~ Psyshock
    ~ Dragon Pulse
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Grass Knot

    Looks like it is on almost all of my doubles teams, but why not?

    Team strategy: Other than an obvious and painful Ice weak (3/4 of my team), I was surprised at its variability to be able to handle almost all kinds of Subway teams. It has been a long time since I´ve did so much protecting and switching and it was quite fun. Having Protect / Detect on both leads is very useful in the Subway as you often get free turns to attack when the AI focus-fires one of your low health leads.

    How I lost (surprisingly not against an Ice trainer, yeah once I lived through lead QC Glaceon, only because it missed both mine)...

    #84 vs Battle Girl: Volcarona, Toxicroak, Magmortar, Bastiodon
    1. Croak Sucker Punch, Zap Thunderbolt Volca, Volca Quiver Dance, Golurk Quake.
    - foe´s Magmortar
    2. Golurk Protect, Volca Heat Wave, Golurk protected, Zap Thunderbolt, Mortar Overheat, Golurk protected.
    3. Zap Detect, Volca Hurricane, Golurk fainted, Mortar Overheat, Zap protected.
    - my Latios
    4. Volca Bug Buzz, Latios fainted, Zap Thunderbolt, Volca fainted, Mortar Overheat, Zap fainted.
    - my Ferrothorn, foe´s Bastiodon
    5. Mortar Focus Blast >50%, Bastio did something, Ferro Leech Seed Mortar, back to around 60%.
    6. Mortar Focus Blast, CH, Ferro fainted.

    Volcarona is a pain in the ass for most of my teams, because I often use a Steel type and Latios and both have big trouble handling Volca. This is the main reason why I´d use a Rock move on Golurk. This battle was over (or so I thought) as soon as Volca got a Quived Dance up and lived through Bolt+Quake+Bolt, but to my surprise (thanks to Pressure) I had a really good chance of winning it. Oh well, Focus Blast is ranked among the top worst moves in the game in my book alongside Stone Edge, Blizzard and Rock Slide. All I needed was one miss in 5 hits. No, instead it CHs on the second succesful hit...
    Smuckem likes this.

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