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Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.
He abuses Flash (Aaaaah!).
So I am planning on making a BF team... I've been browsing through this thread and I noticed some Pokemon with 244 HP / 4 Def / 4 SDef; is this the optimal spread rather than max HP?
At level 50, 31 IVs account for 15.5 stat points, which is then rounded down to 15. But if you then add 4 EVs to a stat, which is 1 point at level 100 and .5 stat points at level 50, you round out the number to 16.
So, at level 50, if you have 31 IVs in defense and special defense, you only need 4 EVs to increase those stats by 1 point, because you're only a fraction of a stat away from increasing as a result of your IVs adding a decimal number of stat points. Whereas the 8 HP EVs lost are equal to 2 whole hp points at level 100, and 1 HP point at level 50. So you lose 1 HP to gain 1 Defense AND 1 Special Defense.
This only works if you have flawless IVs, and if you're at level 50 (not optimized for lvl100 battles). And you only gain 1 higher stat total than before, so it's not a big disadvantage if you don't do it.
The IVs don't necessarily have to be flawless for this sort of EV distribution to be effective. They just have to be odd numbers.
Ah, I get it now - thanks for the input, popprocks and R Inanimate!
Close. Garchomp has Sand Veil which is 20% evasion and I gave it BrightPowder for 10% extra evasion. Yeah I know I'm tempting the hax demons with this one but Garchomp has so many viable items that I'm just going down the list
The BW King's Rock mechanic is total shit though
And I usually wait until the leaderboards to post a team but I guess some input would be nice while I'm at it. So far, my team is:
SS (Sudo Sandstorm):
Tyranitar - Lum Berry(/Focus Sash)
Jolly - Sand Stream
252 Atk 244 Spe 4 HP 4 Def 4 SpD (speak of the devil)
Stone Edge (hax)
Metagross - Air Balloon
Adamant - Clear Body
252 Atk 244 Spe 4 HP 4 Def 4 SpD (^)
Rock Polish (better than Agility)
Meteor Mash (hax)
Garchomp - BrightPowder(/Focus Sash/Leftovers/Muscle Band/Lum Berry)
Jolly - Sand Veil (hax)
252 Atk 252 Spe 4 SpD
I got to 53 and 55 in a row but I haven't broken 70 yet. (I also haven't had a single loss that didn't involve a Stone Edge/Meteor Mash miss, critical hit, or flinch -.-)
i always wondered why ppl use rock polish instead of agility...
agility might sound less cooler, but he gets STAB ON IT! hahahaha im kidding of course.
for flash abuse im using an uxie with
what am i supposed to do first? i always trick and then go from there but am i supposed to spam flash?
Ah I see. In that case, I think you're the one who's close. :P From what I know (please correct me otherwise!), the probability does not stack like that. It should be (1-0.2)*(1-0.1) = 72% chance of hitting, so a bit higher than 70%.
EDIT: @bluemon, I run a similar Uxie, but with Memento > Flash. Either way, I would almost always Twave after Trick unless opponent is immune. The only exception might be if opponent is locked into an inaccurate move and is already slower than Uxie even after tricking the scarf. Otherwise, it's always better to Twave to lower the speed, because you get the same result.
As for Stealth Rock... for Memento, obviously Stealth Rock since I can't do that after Memento, but with Flash vs SR, It probably depends on the situation, as well as what your two set up sweepers are. If you are using a Scizor, Stealth Rock is important because +6 Bullet Punch KOs a few more things with Stealth Rock down compared to without stealth rock. If your set up sweeper can set up without Flash, obviously go for stealth rock first. Otherwise, try to get at least 2 flashes down before going for stealth rock. If you are using Garchomp, SR is less important, or if you are using Salamence, even less important. It also depends on your opponent too. If your opponent is known to carry a lot of ground/rock/steel types (... i.e. potential Sturdy pokemon), then... I'm sure you know which move to use after Twave.
Hope that helps.
Yeah thats correct. According to this:
Sandveil + BrightPowder only results in a 28% evasion rate.
102 Super Singles Streak (Togekiss, Metagross, Latios)
I've been lurking around this thread for ages and, to be honest, I really thought I'd have a couple of streaks on the list by now. Unfortunately, I've been pretty busy IRL and so haven't really had much time to do the subway. I've only used this team twice and got streaks of 67 and 102. I would've liked to try a couple more times and maybe a few different teams, but it looks like I'll have even less free time now, and so I figured I'd post this now, while I have the time. The proof is below. Sorry for such shitty quality, my webcam is no good lol.
Proof (Move your mouse to reveal the content)
Slightly better quality pic:
As you can see, this is a singles team. Originally I had Latios, Metagross and a Vaporeon, and I used that for the Battle Institute, to get my Master Rank, and up until battle 26 (I think, somewhere around there, at least) when I decided that I had had to toxic stall the opponent one too many times and almost got beaten by a crit. I then looked at the team's typing and added in a Togekiss, because it had decent bulk, good type synergy with Metagross and Latios.although, I decided to use a scarfed Togekiss from Gen 4, with Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Flamethrower and Trick, since I basically just needed it to revenge random stuff, that Latios and Metagross couldn't/didn't. Pretty soon, I began to lead with it since Trick is awesome, and I could set-up either Latios or Metagross on most attacks aimed at Togekiss if I needed to.
This team plays pretty simply, I guess. Hax with Togekiss. If threatened, switch out to either Metagross or Latios, both of which only need one turn to set up (if at all).
Yeah, so I said it was a scarfer in the intro, but pretty soon, I figured that it wasn't working as well as I'd thought, when my streak ended at battle 54. Pretty soon after I decided that a Sub-T-wave set would be better, since if I got a free sub, it would be pretty much gg and haxing the subway was really appealing. Plus, Togekiss is awesome. So I did, and it worked out really well. The best thing about this is probably that it makes matches go much quicker, since the cripple-1st-poke-for-one-to-sweep matches tend to drag on a bit, and I can be a bit impatient like that. Sub also allows me to scout the set of opposing pokes, which, although minor, is a nice perk. If i were to RNG another one, I'd probably get a Timid one, since speed is so important and you often outspeed alot of random stuff in the subway that runs weird spreads like 176 speed EVs or 0 speed, (like 724 | Volcarona | Bold | White Herb | Overheat | Quiver Dance | Bug Buzz | Protect | HP/Def). I'm not sure the exact number of Pokemon you outspeed with Timid that you wouldn't otherwise, but that's something I'd look at if I were going to try again with this team.
This may seem like a weird set for the subway, but its good, I assure you. I originally had a 4 attacks Metagross with Zen Headbutt over Hone Claws for the Battle Institute, where hax isn't as much of an issue, though soon after I started I began to get really paranoid about missing with either of those attacks. As a result, I switched Hone Claws in for Zen Headbutt, because between Metagross's nice bulk, nice coverage between Steel/Ground and great resistances its easy to get a Hone Claws up, after which I can reliably use Meteor Mash. This takes rock and ice attacks aimed at Togekiss, and super effective hits aimed at Latios.
Latios covers Metagross's weaknesses and vice versa etc. I originally had Jumpman16's Latios for the Battle Institute (with Surf over Psyshock) since it got awesome super effective coverage. Eventually though, I figured that since Thunderbolt was rarely used, and Dragon Pulse seemed to leave everything at 1hp, I could drop Thunderbolt and make up for the drop in power against Water types.
In the end I enjoyed using this team, but I would have liked to try a couple more times with it and refine it etc. I also would have liked to try DD Dragonite over Latios in the last slot since it and Metagross cover each other's weaknesses perfectly, though I guess I'd lose that electric resistance and being unable to tank Starmie Ice Beams w/o Multiscale would suck. Anyway, if someone else wanted to try this or some variation of it, that would be really cool, and good luck to everyone else riding the subway.
Have a nice day.
Slightly better quality pic:
The following team includes a hack for an unreleased Dream World ability. This isn't a serious 'record' team, but more of a test run to see if something would work. At the moment I've only just started with it, so it has 7 wins, but I thought I'd post in case anybody was interested. If it does go far, I don't expect it to be entered into the records (unless Peterko adds a DW section, which he probably shouldn't).
Durant - Garchomp - Latios
The test is for Entrainment Durant. I wanted to see if the AI would switch out of being given Truant as an ability. I guessed not, since it doesn't directly impair its ability to attack (Tricking something into a non-attacking move causes the AI to switch now).
The BT/BF/BS AI doesn't like to switch. That single fact is behind the setup lead strategy that has dominated the records since like 2007/8, when Jumpman developed Glenscarfing.
If the AI doesn't switch out of Truant, then a sweeper with Protect/Sub/boosting move/attack can set up literally without being touched, and sweep.
Durant uses Entrainment, foe hits it or whatever.
Switch to the sweeper. Foe loafs.
Protect, foe attacks.
Long story short, I think it works, although my sample size is only 7 wins so far.
(This idea comes from someone using this strategy against me in the DW ladder of PO. Durant came in on my Heatran after a kill, and Entrained me with Truant while I gleefully KO'd it. Then Shadow Tag Chandelure came in, trapping me, and used CM as I loafed. Fine, I thought, Earth Power for you next turn. Then it used Protect, and I realised how boned I was. I couldn't switch, and every one of my attacks was blocked by Protect. Chandy set up completely and I probably ended up losing.)
Durant @ Focus Sash ** TruAnt
252 HP / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
Entrainment, Iron Head, Sandstorm, X-Scissor
Garchomp @ Wide Lens ** Garchant
Jolly, Sand Veil
6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Protect, Substitute, Swords Dance, Dual Chop
Latios @ Life Orb ** Latiant
6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse, HP Ground, Grass Knot, Thunderbolt
First off, Durant Entrains the foe, hanging on with its Sash if need be. Almost nothing can outspeed and cripple it for the first turn. (Scarfchomp can - it can flinch with Fire Fang, then KO next turn, but then it's locked into its weakest move, ineffective against my own Chomp.)
Entrainment fails against only three abilities: Multitype (no Arceus, no problem), Truant (since Slaking has Truant already, that's fine) and Zen Mode. Darmanitan isn't a huge problem - all of them are walled solid by Latios, which just misses a OHKO with HP Ground/DP. Thing is, if it misses the KO it will activate Zen Mode and ruin its Attack stat - and Darmanitan only runs physical attacks, lol. I don't know if there are DW abilities in the Subway, but I'll try and Entrain Darmanitan if it leads anyway. If it works, great, if not, Latios can take it out. Durant survives with its Sash (burn hax aside).
Durant's other moves are almost filler. Entrainment with Truant is the ultimate crippling move in this situation.
Sandstorm is to cancel Hail from Abomasnow. Weather is a factor: the sweeper can't be weak to damaging weather unless it has Lefties, as alternating Protect with setup means it'll be nearly dead by the time it's done if sand or hail is hitting it.
The only weather move Durant gets is Sandstorm, so that pretty much gave me my sweeper: Garchomp. SS cancelling Hail means no Snow Cloak, thank god. And because the five-turn Sandstorm will wear off during setup, Sand Veil isn't an issue either (unless Hippo/TTar arrives).
X-Scissor and Iron Head to hit things if absolutely necessary. Durant has max speed and max HP, so its attacks are totally uninvested.
Garchomp. The sweeper in this case is necessarily mono-attack, as it needs Protect while setting up, Sub because it's awesome and a boosting move. A Dragon is the obvious choice for a STAB that covers as much as possible.
There are lots of boosting dragons to choose from! I also considered Multiscale DD Dragonite, CM Latios and DD Haxorus. Hax's Mold Breaker lets it OHKO Sturdy pokes, which is great, and it also gets Dual Chop to break Sashes as well. With a Wide Lens to patch up the 90% accuracy, you have an excellent no-bullshit attack right there, cutting through two of the things the AI will use to stay alive.
But I needed a sweeper that could perform in damaging weather. If Hippo or TTar lead, Hax can't fully set up before it dies to the sand (Wide Lens means no Lefties). So I went with the other Dragon that picked up Dual Chop: Garchomp. I no longer have to worry about Sashes (more of them around) or Sturdy (new and improved), as Dual Chop kills them where Dragon Claw wouldn't.
Finally, Latios. The third here is strictly a revenge killer for Garchomp. It looks odd to use another Dragon, since it shares weaknesses with Chomp, but it gets the things I need it to. The biggest threat to Chomp is probably Mamoswine. One of them has Ice Shard, and while Wide Lens Dual Chop is awesome, it has a 1% chance to miss. If I miss against Mamoshard, that could be that. The other threat is an opposing Garchomp.
Latios with Life Orb OHKOs Mamoswine with Grass Knot, and Garchomp with Dragon Pulse. Not much outspeeds and KOs both. Starmie does, but as Peterko pointed out, Latios is better overall.
Dragon Pulse and Grass Knot are for the things I've arbitrarily identified as threats, and Thunderbolt and HP Ground let it clean up Steels. It's possible a Steel-type might give us trouble down the road, so Latios can deal with them. Hydreigon cleans Steels better, but of course it loses to the faster Garchomp.
So that's the team. The actual team is less important than the possibility that the AI might not switch at all from Truant. I don't think it 'sees' that I'm Protecting every other turn as it attacks, meaning it can never hit me - as far as it knows, it still has a chance. (Only seven games in, I know.)
This might be like Dry Skin Toxicroak in Gen IV: the AI was blind to its ability, and kept hitting it with Water moves regardless. Maybe the AI is blind to its own ability after Entrainment, and although it 'could' cause damage and KO me, really it can't. It would need knowledge of how my moves interact with its ability, and it would have to recognise the pattern of loaf/Protect - I don't think the AI can do it.
If this holds true, then TruAnt will basically become the best setup lead in the game once it's released. I think that pairing it with Chomp works well, as they deal with weather effectively and Chomp is just fast and fun. That's another reason I went with Chomp over Hax - Haxorus needs 6DD plus a Sub times two for Protects = 14 turns of setup. Chomp needs 3SD plus Sub times two = 8 turns. Much better.
All sorts of things could work as a third: Air Balloon Metagross or Lucario, Terrakion or Suicune a la Jumpman, Rotom-H/W/F, anything that can revenge Chomp, really.
The last lead in the set of seven was actually an Abomasnow; the DT variant as it turned out. It went according to plan:
Durant Entrain, Aboma DT
Durant Sandstorm, Aboma DT
Switch to Chomp, loaf.
Protect, attack or whatever.
Set up, sweep.
There you go. Thanks for reading: again, this isn't a serious record, but more of a proof-of-concept team. I'll keep playing it and see if it really works!
Zen Darmanitan doesn't appear in the subway. Instant awesomeness for Durant.
i have never played doubles but would a ohko abuse team work?
cryogonal, machamp, walrein, machoke
cryognal @choice scarf
machamp @chesto berry
A. People generally should avoid talking about teams that aren't legal yet
B. I tried a Truant Durant, Protect Hone Claws Arena Trap Dugtrio, Protect Shadow Tag Chadelure team already but it was horrible (and I didn't post about it because it's not legal yet)
C. Rakham, you definitely meant Adamant on Metagross
D. That's a pretty weird Latios in my opinion, almost all Latios I've seen run Timid, and the coverage you get seems limited using Dragon/Water/Ice
E. bluemon, since the accuracy for Sheer Cold is a miserable 30, it's probably a better idea to go for bulk instead of Speed with something like Wallrein or Lapras with Rest, Sleep Talk, Fissure, Sheer Cold
F. Also consider using No Guard Golurk instead of Machoke
Also, just for fun, what I lost to on battle 25 in the Subway:
+2 Sand Veil Garchomp against Druddigon
Druddigon's Quick Claw activates, Druddigon uses Dragon Claw, critical hit
I send in Metagross
Metagross' Meteor Mash misses, Druddigon uses Crunch
Druddigon's Quick Claw activates, Druddigon uses Earthquake, I lose
And I didn't say to use No Guard Golurk, I said consider it for the future. But the real funny part is that you thought that that actually worked, I thought you wanted the No Guard to hit Sturdy Pokés like Bastiodon hard
LOL. first of all, you just told us not to use unreleased dream world pokemon like truant durant. and you are telling me to use the unreleased no guard golurk? lol.
secondly, the team is for Doubles. it abuses no guard +ohko since no guard allows all moves to hit indefinitely on the field
Like I said, I'm doing a test run to see if Entrainment Durant works (so far it does, 21 wins and the AI hasn't switched). I'm doing it to see how the AI responds, and if this would be viable when or if DW Durant is released. I don't see the harm in discussing it. Obviously we don't want this thread to become a hackfest, but if everyone's totally upfront about what they're doing and they aren't claiming records, I say let them test. If someone wants to try out Contrary Serperior or whatever, go for it - just make it clear that it's 'off the record'. Since hacks won't get on the list, there isn't much incentive to do it other than to satisfy curiosity or try stuff out.
Actual illegal stuff is out of the question (Wondertomb etc). DW abilities are in the game's code, and Game Freak may or may not release them, so they could become legal at some point (third game in Gen V?).
No Guard Golurk hasn't been released yet, same as Truant Durant...
Edit: Accelgor'd. Bluemon obviously wasn't holding an item there.
lol way ahead of ya. already tested contarian serperior. its really disappointing. the damage out put is really low especially the first blow.
Probably the streak will count as soon as all the pokes on the team are released, but not until then
No Guard only causes attacks from the No Guard Pokemon, and attacks towards it to become 100% accurate. Thus you will be 100% accurate hitting your ally with Sheer Cold, but still 30% if you try on the opponent (assuming they don't have No Guard as well).
wait REALLY.... oh...then a gimmicky double skill swap set maybe.
Lol, accidentally had them all Modest, but yeah, Adamant and Timid respectively. I know Dragon/Water/Ice seems limited, and I thought I'd probably end up changing it, but I haven't so far, since Dragon Pulse just ploughs through everything, and anything at +1, and Surf covers pretty much everything else. Ice Beam was kind of just filler originally, but it does get really nice super effective coverage. I would consider changing Ice Beam to Psyshock to hit stuff like Virizion harder. I tried Dragon/Electric/Ice for a while since I figured it would get better super effective coverage, but I didn't really need it due to DP's power and Magnezone was more annoying than Ferrothorn or Empoleon for me to deal with, and so I just switched back.
tl;dr- Looks bad, is good (for subway at least).
Try it? I just don't see it working because it needs like 3 turns to set up and the computers could easily screw you over with tunderwave/protect/fake out. Or they could survive with focus sash. Or just flat out kill you.
I wouldn't bother. Machamp can't use skill swap or entrainment, and as far as I know the only pokemon that have both a OHKO move and a move that can allow them to have No Guard are Abomasnow (role play and sheer cold) and Wormadam-G (skill swap and fissure). Both of those are slow pokemon with many common weaknesses so it would be hard to pull the strategy off.
Alternatively, you could have a dedicated skill swapper to receive No Guard from Machamp and then pass it on to a OHKO user, but having 3 pokemon dedicated to a strategy that is far from guaranteed to work anyway is not a good idea. Feel free to try it though if you really want to.
Just wanted to say, recently I tried using a Moody Baton Pass Smeargle, which was kind of fun, but didn't get me very far. :P
Jolly @ Leftovers
252 HP 252 Speed 4 Def
- Spore / Substitute / Minimize / Baton Pass
Might be better with Coil or Quiver Dance or Shell Smash instead of Minimize, but heh, o well. My lead was Sash Whimsicott with Cotton Spore, so Smeargle will almost always outspeed opponent to spore first. If there was a move that raises accuracy and speed, that'd be pretty good, ensuring that Spore is kept at perfect accuracy and Smeargle always outspeeds, but this was still fun. The sweeper I used this time was Drapion with Earthquake over Rest (i.e. @Black Sludge with Sub / Accupressure / Crunch / EQ).
I have another similar idea in mind... I'll see how this one goes.
I have wanted for a while to try out a team with
1.Cotton Spore Whimsicott
Timid/Modest @Lefties or smthng
-Something to hit darks(&psychics(and maybe even steels)) or just Baton Pass(?)
3.Someone who takes care of Insomnia/Vital Spirit pokemon and those pokemon whose speed can't be lowered.
However after playing 550-600 hours of my White version I realized I have so much else to do, that it will probably take a while for me to actually try this kind of team in the Subway. :)