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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. Miscellaneous

    Miscellaneous

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    You are of course right about frail sweepers - but that's why people use Garchomp/ Tyranitar/ suicune/ Salamence/ Lati@s. For me, sash and sturdy aren't enough to warrant SR. You won't always get up SR, and when you do the majority of the time it won't make a large difference. The subway is all about majorities - being good against most of opponents. There are better ways of setting up sweepers than SR in 3v3.

    No, you're still going to get one-turn-revenged with or without SR. SR is doing about 6% damage to 2 pokemon. That's about 12% damage average per battle, that's not worth it. You're losing a slot that you cannot afford to lose - no two pokemon even come close to being able to cover everything. Avoid simple 1v1 countering thinking as well. Say you have skarm/ phys sweeper/ special sweeper, and you go against an opponent with fast, special attacks. Chances are, you'll lose skarm. Then it's 2v3 where the 3 are at basically 94%ish. Unless you outspeed and OHKO everything (a rare occasion), the battle is going to be very close. Try using just two sweepers and you'll see what i mean. Garchomp/ starmie loses to far too much. There's a lot that outspeeds both of them, starmie is suprisingly frail, they fall short of complete coverage - Peterko couldn't get past 49 with Garchomp/ Starmie/ Skarmory, and he's experienced (look at the platinum records).

    A lot of strategies look or seem very good, then you lose a few times. I really recommend just playing a bit and going from there because with all due respect, it seems as if you don't really understand what these 3v3 battles are like. You want most wins to be 3-0, 2-0 should be a "close call". You can't afford to continually put yourself in situations where one crit, one hydro pump miss, one flinch, loses you the match. It's fundamentally different than 6v6 against another player. The AI just wants to knock out each pokemon in succession, it will not consider the match as a 3v3 but 3 lots of 1v1s (like bad players do), it's exploiting this programming that ultimately leads to very good strategies - such as trick scarf.
  2. NoCheese

    NoCheese I'll play the wild Lombre, no never no more
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

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    Thanks for the thoughts on the idea, Virizion and Miscellaneous. I appreciate the analysis.

    Also, Virizion, very nice to know that mold breaker breaks sturdy! That's worth some experimentation.

    Miscellaneous, I agree that there is huge value in having your lead hit hard right away (My current team leads with choice band chomp, after all!), and this is the big downside to leading with a more bulky supporter. However, I don't think using one poke to stall is as much of a dead end as you suggest. You recommend getting experience in the subway, and I think I have a fair bit, at least in singles. I've found it's fine to use one stall-ish poke, as long as you know its limits. I used a toxic stall milotic on my 112 singles streak, and it was a great switch in for garchomp that answered a lot of threats effectively. However, the key is knowing what you can stall out with some margin for error (crits, etc.) and what you can't (such as where an untimely crit will kill you or where the opponent can set up on you in turn). I also didn't rely entirely on the toxic stalling, as I put enough special attack evs on milotic that it could profitably attack pokes for which toxic stalling would fail such as bronzong and registeel. Indeed, part of the reason I started using milotic way back in platinum was that it could comfortably beat all bronzong and weaville, which were causing problems for chomp.

    Thus, the biggest sacrifice from using a stallish stealth rock poke in the lead is not, I think, that I'm giving up on a sweeper (as noted, I believe one staller is fine, and makes switching a sweeper out of a bad matchup safer), but rather that I am forced to lead with it. It is much more effective to start with a hard hitter and switch to a bulky poke that can cover its weaknesses than the reverse. So indeed, a bulky stealth rock lead may likely prove disadvantageous. But I'm not yet sure that it's as hopeless as you suggest, and figure it's a least worth a test.
  3. Miscellaneous

    Miscellaneous

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    295
    It's bad to base your lead around SR, but it is not necessarily bad for a lead to have SR. It's a fine distinction but an important one. Often you will find better moves than SR for leads (and SR on a non-lead is bad for obvious reasons, unless you're using Choice Scarf assist roar or something very unusual).

    Also stalling, you're entirely correct. But there's a difference between a bulky pokemon like Suicune, Garchomp, Milotic, Latias, and a pokemon that is just for stall (like toxic Blissey or Regi- or Aggron). My real message was having 3 stallers won't work, having one bulky attacker will probably prove to be massively helpful. Analogously to having a pokemon that can stat up is helpful in certain situations where the opponent chooses to stall. I'd generally advise against hard-full on stall, just like I'd advise against trying to base any strategy around losing certain pokemon. On that note though, having something fast that can easily come in and revenge is of course helpful.

    I'm not necessarily ridiculing you specifically; I'm just trying to drill into people that this isn't 6v6 and you really do require an almost completely different mindset. Something else to bare in mind is; that unless your battles are taking under 8 turns average (aka if you're not using at least 2 very fast and aggressive pokemon), then these streaks are going to take FOREVER. Another reason why stall is horrible in the BT. Even 3 sweepers getting to a mere 100 will take at least 2hr30 playing time, common sense and experience is required in tandem with theorymon
  4. Arkadu

    Arkadu

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    35
    After losing yet another ~100 streak due to Sturdy/FS, I threw my DS in a rage, and am now on a mission to replace Memento with Stealth Rock.

    Misc, I see your points, but the experiences I've had greatly favor breaking Sturdy/FS, through use of a move, or Mold Breaker. This is somewhat presenting Haxorus a similar 'old standby' role, that previously Drapion solely occupied. The move option, particularly for Trick-lead users, is slap an SR on your lead. Typical move breakdown will be:

    Turn 1 - Trick :: Attack(in which case they lose, TWave), Status (If status, move to 2)
    Turn 2 - Stealth Rock :: Re-status(then proceed to TWave->Flash), or Switch

    All you need is a simple move adjustment, and Sturdy/FS is a non-issue.

    The Memento loss will be missed, but very rarely did I come across a situation where Drapion or my 3rd (Chomp, Chande, Conk) simply couldn't withstand 1-2 hits with Sub and miss/FP.

    Out of curiosity, can anyone think of another poke that can have Trick/Switcheroo AND Stealth Rock aside from Uxie? Uxie is an issue itself, having access to SR only in Gen IV, and me already shifting my RNGed one :P
  5. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    941
    I currently have a team based around him:

    [​IMG]

    Latios @ Focus Sash
    MODEST (lol)
    +Levitate+
    6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (also lol)
    -Thunder Wave
    -Flash
    -Roar
    -Memento

    [​IMG]

    Whimsicott @ Lum Berry
    BOLD
    +Prankster+
    252 HP / 128 Def / 130 Spe
    -Flash
    -Worry Seed
    -Encore
    -Memento

    [​IMG]

    Haxorus @ Leftovers
    JOLLY
    +Mold Breaker+
    ?
    -Dragon Dance
    -Double Team
    -Substitute
    -Dragon Claw

    Hastily put together, and not very original, but very effective in singles. I haven't done much with it because the battles take so long, but it has potential. The Haxorus was from my main playthrough and the Latios from another project; the Whimsicott is the only one I had to make when I decided to build this team.

    Moreso than straightforward teams, it relies on knowledge of the pokemon / trainer list, but having said knowledge and the patience to debuff the enemy and buff Haxorus every single battle makes it potent in the Subway.
  6. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    Pokemon that learn Trick and Stealth Rock in 4th Gen that are allowed in Battle facilities: Uxie, Azelf, Mesprit, Metagross, Clefable, Claydol. Bronzong.

    I've used Metagross and Uxie to some success for DPPt/HGSS (As for Gen V, I just beat my first gym yesterday lol, no time these days... my masters program finishes in less than 2 weeks though). I'll be interested in how well Uxie (or other Stealth Rock Tricker) does, since that seems to at least do away with the Sturdy and sash problem.

    EDIT: forgot Kecleon... But unlike Kecleon, everything else mentioned is at least potentially usable.
  7. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Super double battle #31 vs veteran risha: thundurus, gigas4, cobalion, suicune, I was using my 415 streak soulsilver team

    turn 1: croak used fake out on thundurus, gigas used wide guard, starmie used surf with no effect, thundurus flinched
    turn 2: croak used sucker punch on thundurus, gigas used wide guard, starmie used surf no effect, thundurus used discharge starmie fainted, I sent out latios
    turn 3: thundurus used volt switch, CH, croak fainted, -> suicune, latios used dragon pulse 55% dmg to cune, gigas used double team, I sent out scizor
    turn 4: gigas used wide guard, latios used dragon pulse, suicune fainted, scizor used bug bite, CH 60% dmg to gigas, risha sent out cobalion
    turn 5: latios used dragon pulse, gigas survived with 3%, cobalion used calm mind, scizor used superpower on gigas (oops), gigas fainted, risha sent out thundurus
    turn 6: scizor used protect, thundurus used taunt, scizor protected itself, latios used dragon pulse, thundurus fainted, cobalion used calm mind
    turn 7: latios used psychic around 30% dmg, cobalion used calm mind, scizor used superpower, cobalion at 25% HP
    turn 8: scizor used bullet punch, latios used draco meteor (lol why?), cobalion used focus blast, scizor fainted
    turn 9: latios used draco meteor, 1% HP left, cobalion used flash cannon, latios fainted

    there you go, this is how you should NOT play...too many stupid mistakes, omg why did I draco meteor cobalion again? Why didn´t I psychic it? Dude, basic math 140x0,75 < 90x1,5...also I should´ve left the no attack gigas just sit there and concentrate on the others...yeah and that wide guard really threw me off, now there´s a special protect for multi-target moves and priority moves, wow...

    well, I lost the first streak with this team somewhere around 24 to „no weak“ spiritomb, damn I love that thing, but it owns my team badly with sucker punch...

    hydreigon instead of latios would sort of solve my sucker punch problem and the need of a fire move (I´d probably play d-pulse, earth power, flamethrower, crunch with LO), but it´s too slow for my taste and all those new legends outspeed it, all of the fighters beat it badly...latios would need a HP fire or something, but I don´t have that

    I´ll play more to see what works
  8. Mr. XYZ

    Mr. XYZ

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    60
    Got another nice Streak today:

    Doubles: 89

    http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/hnjq-2-jpg.html

    Scizor@ Muscle Band
    Brave
    Technician
    252 HP, 252 Att
    Bullet Punch
    Bug Bite
    Superpower
    Tailwind

    Mienshao@ Focus Sash
    Adamant
    Regenerator
    252 Att,252 Spe
    Fake Out
    Hi Jump Kick
    Rock Slide
    U-Turn

    Gyarados@ Choice Band
    Adamant
    Intimidate
    252 Att, 64 Spe,194 HP
    Waterfall
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge
    Ice Fang

    Hydreigon@ Life Orb
    Modest
    Leviatate
    252 SpA, 252 Spe
    Dark Pulse
    Draco Meteor
    Surf
    Flamethrower

    Strategie should be clear Fake Out + Tailwind and start sweeping. Before I found Scizor I had a support- Whimsicott doing its job but Scizor works like ten times better.

    Battle Subway > Tower: More Fun, less hax :)
  9. Ashenlock

    Ashenlock

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    941
    Thank you for sharing this Mr. XYZ. I have been planning a tailwind team and it is helpful to know that Whimsicott is not ideal on it (I have 3 different whimsicotts for different teams, so I've grown addicted to him). Your post also reminded me that as a Gen IV move tutor move, it's available to a lot of other pokemon, like the Fake Out-immune Dragonite and Crobat.
  10. waffles101

    waffles101

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    246
    Mainly posting to say that you forgot to keep Multi (with opposite gender player) and Multi (with friend/yourself) seperate this time around.

    Thinking of raising a bunch of pokes to mix and match such as:
    Archeops, Darmanitan, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Whismicott, Conkeldurr, Chandelure, Reaniclus and some other pokes from older gens such as Medicham with its awesome HJK buff.

    So far I have a Modest Litwick w/ 31 speed and 24-27 SpA, A Jolly Darmanitan (or its prevo) with 20+ Atk and Spe IVs and a Mild Deino (unsure of IVs)
  11. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    109
    Here's my team:

    Politoed @ focus sash
    Modest 252 spatt 252 speed 4 hp
    scald
    ice beam
    hidden power electric
    rock smash

    Here to set up rain for my sweeper. HP electric is for gyarados that gives me trouble in rain, and rock smash is a late addition over endeavor to help vs ferrothorn and other stallish pokemon that would otherwise set up on me.

    Kingdra @ mystic water
    naughty 252 att 252 spc att 4 hp
    waterfall
    outrage
    dragon pulse
    ice beam

    With swift swim and free rain this thing usually sweeps whole teams. I don't like recoil damage so i don't use life orb and i use dragon pulse ovver surf to hit annoying things like slowbro that i can't really hurt much otherwise

    Conkeldurr @leftovers
    brave 0 speed ivs 252 att 252 hp 4 sp def
    mach punch
    payback
    drain punch
    bulk up

    I use this guy as a tyranitar switch if it gets the weather up on my politoed, i gota keep my politoed alive for kingdra to sweep. Priority is awesome and he he has massive attack and stab on mach punch.
    I only really use bulk up if they start setting up on me.
    Ferrorthorn gives the other two pokes on this team a bit of trouble so he shores up that problem.

    This team has problems sometimes with:
    gyardos
    slowbro
    starmie
    ludicolo
    ferrothorn

    Usually i can get past these pokemon, but whenever i lose it is one of them
  12. Virizion

    Virizion

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,290
    lol
  13. xMistyx

    xMistyx

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    251
  14. SP458

    SP458

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    142
    Rock Smash on a Pokémon with a Modest nature (and without any EVs in Atk)? If it were Slaking, it might be good (and even then Brick Break would be better). But, a Politoed...

    Also, your "problems" are either Water or Grass-type Pokémon. You should try something (read: Grass/Steel) which can cover most of them.
  15. xMistyx

    xMistyx

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    251
    For Ferrethorn if he doesn't want to change any of his team Politoed can learn Focus Blast which does respectable damage against Ferrethorn (More so than Rock smash would.)
  16. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    109
    Rock smash is hardly ever used, but why don't you list some viable alternatives? Vs slow bulky pokemon (which are the only pokemon that give me trouble) the defense drops are invaluable. So many pokemon use curse in the battle subway.
    Politoed is really just there to set up rain and do as much else as he can. Scald is pretty useful, but i was sick of losing to ferrothorn when it didn't burn. Just one def drop is usually enough for my other pokemon to do the job
  17. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    109
    Focus blasts shaky accuracy is a big no no in the battle subway, eventually it'll miss 3 times in a row and i'll lose and i'll blame you. I like rock smash, it has such a high chance of a def drop. I'm by no means saying it is a good move, but this isn't OU this is battle subway. Vs ludicolo and ferrothorn it is invaluable and that is the only really time i use it. Generally he sets up rain and just fires off 1 or 2 scalds and dies
  18. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Pokémon Black Battle Subway Super Double Battle streak(s):
    1. using Draco Meteor on Latios: 23, 30, 84, 128, 27, 30, 13, 115, 59
    2. using Surf instead of DM on Latios: 21, 95, 46
    3. using Taunt instead of HH on Toxicroak: 160, 66, 56, 46, 84

    [​IMG]
    Starmie nicknamed SUPERNOVA2
    Item: Choice Specs*
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Nature: Timid
    IVs: 31 / x / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
    EV spread: 0 / 0 / 0 / 252 / 6 / 252
    Lv.50: 135 / 84 / 105 / 228* / 106 / 183
    Moves:
    ~ Psychic
    ~ Ice Beam
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Surf

    Still works wonderfully in doubles with the right partner. Outspeed just about the right number of Pokémon. The faster ones are dealt with thanks to priority.

    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak nicknamed LAW
    Item: Focus Sash
    Ability: Dry Skin
    Nature: Adamant
    IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / x / 31 / 31
    EV spread: 6 / 252 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 252
    Lv.50: 159 / 173 / 85 / 91 / 85 / 137
    Moves:
    ~ Fake Out
    ~ Sucker Punch
    ~ Taunt
    ~ Low Kick

    MVP. The AI loves to target him, often even if they have a STAB SE move on Starmie. He eases prediction. The only downside is that he can´t learn Close Combat, which would make him perfect in my eyes. Note that the AI still attacks him with water, repeatedly ;). Over the course of using the team, switched to Taunt to help with Spiritomb and other stuff.

    [​IMG]
    Latios nicknamed DRAGON
    Item: Expert Belt
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
    EV spread: 6 / 0 / 0 / 252 / 0 / 252
    Lv.50: 156 / 99 / 100 / 182 / 130 / 178
    Moves:
    ~ Psychic
    ~ Dragon Pulse
    ~ Thunderbolt
    ~ Surf

    I´d use HP fire if I had one. If only for escavalier, oh man. Thought about using sub or something else to prevent losing horribly to sucker punch. I´d want a second LO for this one, don´t like EB much, it´s so so. Changed DM to Surf to help Scizor with Fire types, also Volcarona is a big threat.

    [​IMG]
    Scizor nicknamed ZARA
    Item: Life Orb
    Ability: Technician
    Nature: Adamant
    IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 2 / 31 / 31
    EVs: 86 / 252 / 4 / 0 / 4 / 164
    Lv.50: 156 / 200 / 121 / 54 / 101 / 106
    Moves:
    ~ Bug Bite
    ~ Bullet Punch
    ~ Protect
    ~ Superpower

    I don´t know why I didn´t use her with LO from the beginning, soo much better as she often has to hit for neutral damage, now 30% harder. This pokémon is superb, LO BP does insane damage. Like with many others, I´d like this to have more than 4 moves.

    Team has troubles with: Spiritomb, Sucker Punch, Escavalier, Legendary Teams, Biker Philipo, Trick Room (depends).

    Random notes:
    Terrakion has to be the coolest looking Pokémon ever!
    Gentleman Kavan: My brother told me! Erm, aim for the eyes! -> wasn´t there a psychic in the previous generation (frontier) who said the same stuff? I always found that one hilarious.
    Foe switching Whiscash out of my second surf and bringing Gastrodon, who gets 2 spA boosts (one from surf and one from his own Aligatr aqua jet). That was kind of cool.
    Muk exploding first turn at #124, even Starmie survived that heh.

    Battle #129 vs Harelquin Aramis: Quagsire, Slowbro, Hippowdon, Bronzong

    Turn 1: Toxicroak used Fake Out, Starmie used Surf, Quagsire used Fling 110/135 dmg to Starmie, Slowbro flinched.
    Turn 2: Toxicroak used Sucker Punch, but it failed, Starmie used surf, Quagsire fainted, Slowbro used Trick Room, oponent sent out Hippowdon.
    Turn 3. Toxicroak used Sucker punch, Slowbro used Psychic, Toxicroak´s Focus Sash activated, Hippowdon used Crunch, Starmie fainted, Toxicroak was hurt by Sandstorm and fainted, Slowbro at 15-20% after Leftovers (just outside red), I sent in Latios and Scizor.

    Here I calced LO Bullet Punch on Slowbro, which does 27-33 damage (13,37-16,34%) because Bro is 252HP / 252def ...

    Turn 4: Scizor used Bullet Punch, Slowbro used Blizzard, Hippowdon used Curse, Latios used Dragon Pulse around 35% dmg to Hippowdon, Sandstorm did not KO Slowbro.
    Turn 5: Scizor used Bullet Punch, Slowbro fainted, Hippowdon used Crunch, Latios fainted.
    Turn 6. Scizor used Protect, Hippowdon used Curse, Bronzong used Rock Slide, Scizor protected itself, Trick Room ended.
    Turn 7: Scizor used Bug Bite, eat Chesto, Hippowdon used Earthquake, Bronzong fainted, Scizor fainted. 0-1

    Sucks that I post battles where I mess up and not those other 99% battles where I play (almost) flawlessly. This one was played miserably on my side. It being the 144th battle today, I could blame it on overplaying, but it wasn´t the case (for those who care, 144th because I started the day with battles #71-85 from my yesterday´s streak, the log is below). This was only the 4th battle after a 5-6 hour break and I wasn´t focusing enough...anyway, I´m getting more experienced the more I battle and I feel the confidence and skill from months ago is coming back.

    What was wrong with 129? Where do I start. I did check the movesets but still risked a potential water absorb on Quagsire. Stupid. I knew it would fling but I was quite sure Starmie could take it...yeah it did but I should´ve gone for Slowbro big time (FO+bolt), Quaggy is no threat for my team...my Slowbro HP asessment was way off lol, it was more like a wish to KO it with BP than anything else, I guess orange´s 20-50% lol? Anyway, I´ll definitely continue with this team, those weren´t its last words. It´s fun and challenging, no reason to stop.

    Oh here´s the battle #85 log of my third streak with this team vs Biker Philipo (Salamence, Escavalier)
    1: intimidate, fake out esca, ice beam yache, sala fainted, foe sent out ttar
    2: ice beam ttar, low kick, chople, ttar fainted, megahorn, starmie fainted, sandstorm, togekiss in
    3: protect, low kick esca 10%, aerial ace, iron head croak fainted, latios in
    4: bullet punch 50% kiss, latios bolt, kiss fainted, megahorn, latios fainted
    5: protect, swagger
    6: superpower 60%, 15% left, megahorn, 32 HP left
    7: custap, megahorn, scizor fainted

    See, that one was just lazyness to get out of bed, connect to the internet and check the moveset or just use common sense (subway experience). One simple protect would have done the job there. Such a loss is painful, I´ve thrown 3-4 hours out of the window just like that, unneeded.

    Some basic rule(s) of thumb:
    1. Always expect Sturdy.
    2. Always expect a Focus Sash if you don´t check the moveset list.
    3. Always expect a low HP pokémon to go first next turn due to a Custap Berry (or QC), make sure to priority KO that one. The lower base speed they have, the more often this is the case. This happens a lot.
    4. Speed tiers knowledge (quick check) may save you at crucial times. I did this at least three times, mostly against the legends (latios vs lati@s and vs the geenie trio situations, don´t forget the latter have priority on stuff like rest beside the one point more in speed if +speed nature).
    etc.


    Hmm, 128 seems to be the highest doubles streak posted so far, but I feel I can get a higher one with this team. The battles are fairly quick, the pace is about 4 sets per hour, at worst 3.



    EDIT1:

    Another day has almost passed, had some more battles...I did around 200 today, that´s a lot, actually. After losing to random stuff like a DT dusknoir and others quite early, #27, #31 and #13, I managed another 100+ streak with this team...I am kind of angry right now, because prankster gets on my nerves, it´s broken, I lost because for some reason I thought bullet punch would finish thundurus off and he just rested off the 80% HP it lost before

    batle #116 vs veteran leron: heatran and articuno
    turn 1: mie surf, croak low kick, heatran fainted, articuno used hail, hail dmg, landorus in, 4-3
    turn 2: croak helping hand, landorus scarf quake, croak fainted, mie surf, landorus fainted, arti at 20%, arti roost, starmie at 31HP, hail dmg, latios in, foe thundurus in, 3-2
    turn 3: mie surf, 40% to thundurus, lati dragon pulse 40%, thundurus bolt, mie fainted, arti blizzard, lati fainted, hail dmg, scizor in, 1-2
    turn 4: thundurus used chestorest, scizor bullet punch 25% to thundurus, arti roost, hail dmg
    turn 5: thundurus protect, scizor bug bite, thund protected, arti fly1, hail dmg
    turn 6: scizor protect, thund bolt, protected, arti fly2, protected, hail dmg
    turn 7: thund protect, scizor bug bite, thund protected, arti fly1, hail dmg
    turn 8: scizor protect, thund bolt, protected, arti fly2, protected hail stopped, hail dmg
    turn 9: thund bolt, scizor 24 HP left, paralyzed, fully para, arti hail
    turn 10: bullet punch, LO fainted

    I misplayed the turn I attacked thund with dragon pulse instead of bolting articuno to hell, could´ve been 2-1 up and gang up on thund = easy win, another possibility was switch out starmie and then later bolt or beam...I underestimated articuno there, didn´t check its moveset, was too focused on the genie damn it...and still got prankstered ._.

    EDIT2:

    #161 vs Biker Philipo: Escavalier + Haxorus
    1. Fake Out Esca, Mie Surf, Haxo Dragon Dance
    2. Haxo Outrage, Starmie fainted, Croak Low Kicked Esca, Liechi activated, Esca Megahorn Croak to 96/159 HP
    - Scizor in
    3. Esca Quick Guard protected from Sucker and Bullet Punch, Haxo Outrage, Croak fainted
    - Latios in
    4. Haxo Outrage Scizor to 72/156 HP, Persim, Latios Dragon Pulse, Haxo fainted, Scizor Superpower, Esca fainted
    - foe Spiritomb & Weavile in
    5. Scizor Bullet Punch, Focus Sash Weavile, Tomb Sucker Punch CH, Latios fainted, Weavile Ice Punch, Scizor fainted
    0-2
  19. IronBarbed

    IronBarbed

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1
    I have been browsing this site and I really like the information on it. I decided to post the team that I have been working with for a while. I get very bored with breeding so my teams never usually have perfect IVs.

    Mienshao "Sensei"
    Adamant @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Regenerator
    -Fake Out
    -Drain Punch
    -Stone Edge
    -U Turn
    EVs: Attack and Speed

    I chose Drain Punch over Hi Jump Kick after i would single handedly lose battles because of a miss. Stone Edge very necessary for fires.

    Ferrothorn "Bawlz"
    Relaxed @ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    -Thunder Wave
    -Gyro Ball
    -Power Whip
    -Stealth Rock
    EVs: 252 HP, split between Def and SpD

    Stealth Rock gets rid of focus sash, and damages fire types that might otherwise cause me problems. Thunderwave is for fast enemies to ensure my team can outspeed.

    Thundurus "Zeus?"
    Timid @ Life Orb
    Ability: Prankster
    -Psychic
    -Volt Switch
    -Dark Pulse
    -Thunderwave
    EVs: Speed and SpA

    This team got me to 55 Wins, but I think it could get farther if I play smarter. The idea for the team started with Mienshao because he is awesome, and then I wanted someone I could U Turn into safely, that's where Ferrothorn came in. Then I wanted to keep the switching aspect alive, and that is where Thundurus came in.

    Problems: I have no real counter for Fire types, aside from Stone Edge, also has trouble with Curse users, like Umbreon, and Magnet Pull Probopass is so annoying, but I end up winning the stall war when Ferrothorn gets trapped.


    Next I am going to experiment with a combination of Leech Seed, and then Substitute and Nasty Plot on Thundurus.
  20. Team Rocket Elite

    Team Rocket Elite Data Integration Thought Entity
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,006
    Battle Subway Multi Battle (W/CPU ally)
    Team Rocket Elite (90) - Togekiss, Garchomp
    Hilbert (90) - Various Unova Pokemon


    http://members.shaw.ca/teamrocketelite/TREBattleSubway4s.JPG

    Hilbert should get some credit for not choosing awful Pokemon... that often. <_<

    Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Nature: Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk)
    IVs: 30/24/20/30/24/31
    EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd
    -Air Slash
    -Heat Wave
    -Aura Sphere
    -Trick

    Garchomp @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sand Veil
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SpAtk)
    IVs: 30/31/31/16/31/31
    EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spd
    -Outrage
    -Earthquake
    -Rock Slide
    -Protect

    The battles hinge on Hilbert's initial Pokemon selection and your ability to predict how your CPU ally acts. Sometimes you get something good and the battles are a breeze, other times you end up having to jump through hoops like in this battle: 92-08553-75454

    I lost at Battle 91 in a battle against a Ranger with Walrein 3, Weavile 3, and a Hiker with Rampardos + Probopass. Hilbert had Eelektross 4, and Archeops 3, which was a pretty solid selection from him.

    Walrein was a threat since it knows Blizzard, so I decide to lead by attacking Walrein with Aura Sphere, expecting Eelektross to finish it off with Wild Charge and the Rampardos to Head Smash and KO Togekiss. The turn goes as expected, aside from Eelektross using Brick Break Rampardos. Blizzard from Walrein misses Eelektross.

    The Hiker sends out Probopass, and I go for the Earthquake with Garchomp. Probopass doesn't have Sturdy, and goes down while Walrein survives narrowly due to healing with leftovers. Blizzard KOs Garchomp and does about 50% to Eelektross, who activates a Sitrus Berry, and KOs Walrein with Brick Break.

    Weavile 3 is sent out, and I already know it's over. The Weavile can OHKO Archeops, and will 2HKO Eelektross before it can land the two hits needed to KO Weavile. And then Weavile CH Ice Punches Eelektross to seal the deal.

    Battle Subway Super Double Battle
    Team Rocket Elite (279) - Togekiss, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Excadrill


    http://members.shaw.ca/teamrocketelite/TREBattleSubway5s.JPG

    At 200 wins, you get a Starf Berry.

    I modified the team I used for Link Subway and went for Super Doubles. Garchomp is now used as the second lead, and some new members were added to the back. While trying things out I ended up with a Tyranitar and Excadrill. The back half really ended up working out a lot better than I expected them to despite the glaring weakness to Water/Ice the team has.


    Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Nature: Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk)
    IVs: 30/24/20/30/24/31
    EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd
    -Air Slash
    -Heat Wave
    -Aura Sphere
    -Trick

    Garchomp @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sand Veil
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SpAtk)
    IVs: 30/31/31/16/31/31
    EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spd
    -Outrage
    -Earthquake
    -Rock Slide
    -Protect

    Togekiss and Garchomp work very well as a lead, despite both of them being weak to Ice. The opponents will just about always go for Garchomp with their Ice Attacks, allowing for easy Protect prediction. I can often take out any Ice threats with minimal harm by having Garchomp Protect on the first turn and finish them off on the second. And even if I don't, there is a good chance of them flinching, although it isn't something to be relying on. Very few things are resistant to both Earthquake and Air Slash, in fact, most things resistant to one end up being weak to the other so for most battles, you end up using Air Slash and Earthquake and plow through the opponents. Since they tend to like targetting Pokemon that are in KO range, you can easily predict the opponent and use Protect with Garchomp if its at low health allowing a free attack turn.

    Tyranitar @ Air Balloon
    Ability: Sandstream
    Nature: Brave (+Atk, -Spd)
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 SpDef
    IVs: 31/31/31/19/23/10
    -Rock Slide
    -Protect
    -Earthquake
    -Crunch

    Excadrill @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Sand Rush
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpAtk)
    EVs: 4 HP, 254 Atk, 252 Spd
    IVs: 31/31/18/xx/31/31
    -Earthqauke
    -Rock Slide
    -X-Scissor
    -Protect

    Surprise, the team is now a Sandstorm team. Tyranitar is one I bred for VGC last year so it's not really optimized for Battle Subway. It would be a lot better if it wasn't Brave and low speed IV, but it never cost me any battles. For the most part it just sits there and acts as a weather support, or as a target for drawing in attacks while it uses Protect. Tyranitar becomes an MVP when facing Hail Teams and in many situations against Legendary Pokemon trainers. The Air Balloon allows me to attack with Earthquake from Garchomp or Excadrill without worry assuming that Tyraitar hasn't been hit yet. Excadrill essentially works as a "Second Garchomp" on the team, and while under Sand Rush it easily outruns everything. Since both Tyranitar and Excadrill run an item that becomes useless if they are hit they aren't switched in too often. I tend to switch either to be able to change Togekiss' locked attack or to save Garchomp from heavy Ice attack bombardment.

    Overall, since there are fewer trainers that specialize in using Electric, Ice or Rock types than there were in 4th Gen, and there's also a lot less BrightPowder, and Quick Claw Blizzards/Stone Edges, I have a lot less to worry about in battles, especially for my Scarfed Togekiss. So while the opponents decided to clean up their hax act, I decided to turn the tables show them some hax of my own. Unlike some of the teams I've used in the past, this is a straightforward sweeping team. Togekiss only really chooses a move on the first turn, and most of the time its Air Slash. Garchomp will often use Earthquake, except for the times it would use Rock Slide. Excadrill, as stated eariler is a "Second Garchomp". Tyranitar is mostly for clean up and weather support. What will probably make or break the team would be missing with the many 90% accurate attacks run on the team, and how well you can use Protect.

    Teams that are threatening include:
    -Legendary Pokemon Trainers: Lots of new Fast Pokemon who run Fighting moves, coupled with old Pokemon that can easily KO Garchomp can make these trainers tricky depending on what they decide to bring to the battle.
    -Hail Teams: No real explanation is required to see why they are bad
    -Trick Room Teams: Usually aren't problems, but Trick Room isn't something to deal with lightly when you run a fast team

    My run ended because of Zoroark of all things. I made some sub-optimal moves here and there in the battle coupled with a Air Slash miss early on in the battle, but the real turning point was Garchomp being surprise KO'd by Zoroark before it could finish off the opponent's Conkeldurr, leading to my Tyranitar being KO'd after it used Crunch on the Pokemon which ended up being Zoroark.

    Battle Subway Super Single Battle
    Team Rocket Elite (162) - Togekiss, Garchomp, Ferrothorn


    http://members.shaw.ca/teamrocketelite/TREBattleSubway6s.JPG

    Togekiss @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Nature: Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk)
    IVs: 30/24/20/30/24/31
    EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpAtk, 252 Spd
    -Air Slash
    -Heat Wave
    -Aura Sphere
    -Trick

    Garchomp @ Focus sash
    Ability: Sand Veil
    Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -SpAtk)
    IVs: 30/31/31/16/31/31
    EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spd
    -Outrage
    -Earthquake
    -Dragon Claw
    -Swords Dance

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    Nature: Relaxed (+Def, -Spd)
    IVs: 31/31/31/xx/28/16
    EVs: 252 HP, 4 Atk, 4 Def, 248 SpDef
    -Curse
    -Leech Seed
    -Substitute
    -Gyro Ball

    Completing the "Togekiss goes in every team (along with Garchomp)" plan, here they are now with guest star Ferrothorn in Super Singles and Wi-Fi Battle Mode. Of note is the fact that Garchomp dropped Rock Slide and Protect for Swords Dance and Dragon Claw.

    For the most part, the team is carried by Ferrothorn which I made from a leftover Ferroseed I had. The moveset is half sub-seeder, half curse-sweeper which I find to work very nicely in the Battle Subway. It is fairly easy to find something for Ferrothorn to jump in against and set itself up, especially if Trick is used. It's speed at 6 Curses is 7 (Would be 5 with a proper speed IV), which will hit just about anything with a 150 power STAB attack. A rough estimate on the power would be like getting hit by Metagross' Explosion back when it was 500 power. It might be better if it had a Sassy nature due to being unable to raise Sp. Def, but I haven't really done exhaustive theorization with the team to know which is best.

    Although Togekiss runs Trick, the team doesn't really rely on it too much because I don't want to lock the opponent on a non-damaging move and cause a switch if I can help it. I tend to use it on Pokemon who I know will attack Togekiss with a Rock or Electric attack, or against sets to stop certain types of set up moves (Curse, Calm Mind or Dragon Dance in particular). Against things that try to do something like stall and use Toxic/Leech Seed, or have weaker attacks, I just switch to using Ferrothorn.

    Alternatively, the team can just go for a straight up attack mode. But this can put me in a vulnerable situation. Against leads that are Fire/Fighting types, there isn't much of a choice. Fortunately there are only Black Belts/Battle Girls who run Fire/Fighting heavy teams.

    The team's biggest problem is Ice weakness. My run ended when Ferrothorn got frozen solid before being able to do anything.

    I lost against a Painter because I decided not to Trick against a Claydol, and it ended up freezing Ferrothorn solid for about 10 turns straight, leading to a loss since it set itself up with Calm Mind. Garchomp defeated it, only to be locked into Outrage and at 1HP against a Probopass. His third was a Magnezone which OHKOs Togekiss.

    When using the team for Wi-Fi Train, the opponents are pretty much all heavy attackers or bulky set up Pokemon, so Trick was used on just about everything except for the rare times I ran into another Togekiss lead. The extra defense on Ferrothorn definately came in handy for Wi-Fi mode, since it often had to set up against physical attackers and would take a few hits before getting a good number of Curses in. The team managed to get to Rank 10 without too much effort.
  21. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    updated the list

    congrats on those impressive streaks TRE, you´ll be the leader for a while now, that´s another tradition heh


    ...and I´ve just lost yet another doubles streak

    Battle #96 vs Psychic Khaan: Slowbro & Spiritomb

    really really really bad match-up

    Turn 1: I switch out Starmie to Scizor, Toxicroak used Sucker Punch on Slowbro, it failed, Spiritomb used Will-o-wisp, Scizor avoided it, Slowbro used Trick Room.
    Turn 2: Scizor used Protect, Toxicroak used Sucker Punch 75% dmg to Slowbro (CH), Slowbro used Psychic, Focus Sash activated, Toxicroak at 1 HP left, Spiritomb used Will-o-wisp, Scizor protected itself.
    Turn 3: I switch out Scizor to Starmie, Spiritomb used Sucker Punch, Toxicroak fainted, Slowbro used psychic (CH), Starmie at 60/135 HP, Scizor in.
    Turn 4: I switch Starmie out to Latios, Scizor used Protect, Spiritomb used Sucker Punch on incoming Latios, it failed, Slowbro used Blizzard, freezes Latios, Latios at 82/156 HP, Scizor protected itself.
    Turn 5: I switch out Latios to Starmie, Slowbro used Blizzard, freezes Scizor, Spiritomb used Will-o-wisp, it failed on Scizor, Scizor is frozen solid, twisted dimensions returned to normal.
    Turn 6: Spiritomb used Sucker Punch, Starmie fainted, Scizor is frozen solid, Slowbro used Trick Room, Latios in.
    Turn 7: Spiritomb used Sucker Punch, Latios fainted, Slowbro used Blizzard, Scizor avoided it, Scizor used Bug Bite, 75% dmg against Spiritomb and stole its Custap Berry.
    Turn 8: Scizor used Protect, Slowbro used Psychic, Scizor protected itself, Spiritomb used Will-o-wisp, Scizor protected itself.
    Turn 9: Scizor used Bullet punch, Spiritomb fainted, Slowbro used Psychic, Scizor at 62/156 HP, foe´s Golurk in.
    Turn 10: Scizor used Protect and protected itself from Golurk´s Hammer Arm and Slowbro´s Psychic, dimensions returned to normal.
    Turn 11: Scizor used Bug Bite, Slowbro fainted, Golurk used Hammer Arm, Scizor avoided it, foe´s Espeon in.
    Turn 12: Scizor used Protect and protected itself from Psychic and Hammer Arm.
    Turn 13: Scizor used Bullet punch, Espeon survived at 5% HP, Espeon used Psychic, Scizor fainted.

    I should´ve surfed turn 1, maybe even helping hand surfed, the last few times I faced Spiritomb it didn´t sucker punch right from the bat, but it did in my previous runs, so...it really is unpredictable and by far my biggest weakness as it doesn´t die easily, pain splits at low HP (with custap), priority 1-hits both my special attackers and burns my two physical attackers, that´s just crazy.

    I´m currently using surf instead of draco meteor on latios, because I lost one streak to volcarona, that thing´s dangerous as well, it survives surf from starmie and pretty much 1-hits 3/4 of my team

    23, 30, 84, 128, 27, 30, 13, 115, 59, 21, 95

    out of the above streaks with this team, the latest ones I lost early to CM cofagrigus, DT clops and curseumby
  22. Mr. XYZ

    Mr. XYZ

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    60
    @ Peterko
    If Sucker Punch is such a pain you could try to use Hydreigon over Latios. It´s pretty much the same: You lose speed and a little bit power but it would reduce your Sucker Punch weak.
  23. Crowing

    Crowing

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1
    Battle Subway
    Super Singles
    Streak: 100 (exactly v_v)
    http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7308/1003412l.jpg

    Hey all; I've been a lurker around here since the beginning of 4th gen but decided to finally post in this topic as I'm not much of a competitive person but I love min/maxing and trying to get the most out of games. Thus, the Battle Subway is an ideal environment for me.

    I went through several teams, never getting past a 61 streak with any of them until its current iteration which was inspired by NoCheese's team (which was remarkably similar to some of my earlier teams in the first place). Many thanks to NoCheese for showing me a good complement to Garchomp and Milotic, a position that I ran many candidates through.

    My progression went:
    LO Terrakion - Milotic - Specs Hydreigon
    Scarf Garchomp - Milotic - Specs Hydreigon
    Scarf Garchomp - Milotic - Sash Gengar
    CB Garchomp - Milotic - Sash Gengar (61 streak with this team)
    CB Garchomp - Milotic - Scarf/Specs Hydreigon
    LO Lucario - Milotic - CB/Scarf Garchomp
    LO Lucario - Milotic - Sash/Specs Gengar
    LO Scizor - Milotic - CB Garchomp (current team)

    As you can see Milotic has been in every team; I don't actually like him that much as a Pokemon >_> but he has just consistently been very useful with his bulkiness and instant recovery.

    Here are the details for my current team:

    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Life Orb "Shredder"
    Ability: Technician
    Nature: Adamant
    Bullet Punch
    Bug Bite
    Superpower
    Swords Dance
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31 (RNG'd)
    EVs: 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Spe

    [​IMG]
    Milotic @ Leftovers "Nessie"
    Ability: Marvel Scale
    Nature: Bold
    Scald
    Ice Beam
    Toxic
    Recover
    IVs: 31/0/18/30/31/30
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Choice Band "Jetsam"
    Ability: Sand Veil
    Nature: Jolly
    Outrage
    Earthquake
    Rock Slide (for Volcarona only)
    Fire Blast (for Skarmory and Bug/Steels)
    IVs: 29/31/30/27/20/31
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe

    I'm aware that there isn't a whole lot of creativity going on here but I really feel like the members of this combination cover each others' weaknesses very well.

    I start with Scizor and try to set up as many SDs as I can before sweeping with Bullet Punch and Bug Bite. If the opponent is a bulky water, I switch to Milotic and Toxic stall them to death. Against fire-types, I also switch to Milotic (as he doesn't mind getting burned as much as Garchomp) and simply kill with Scald. If the first enemy Pokemon out is an electric-type, then I switch to Garchomp and kill with EQ. Unless I know I need the extra power for the KO I try not to use Outrage as getting Garchomp locked in against steel and ice-types is very sad indeed. When Garchomp is out, I can switch to Milotic to take ice-types as he can just thaw himself out with Scald if he gets frozen.

    Some Pokemon require specific strategies:
    Volcarona: I don't have much choice against this guy; if I use Milotic he boosts up with Quiver Dance and destroys me. I have to switch to Garchomp, risk the burn on the Heat Wave, and kill with Rock Slide.
    Starmie: Boy, this guy is annoying, especially if Scizor is dead. I use Toxic with Milotic then swap back and forth between Milotic and Garchomp (Milotic takes Ice Beams and Garchomp takes Thunderbolts) until he dies from Toxic.
    Latios: Draco Meteor + White Herb is pretty devastating. I let Scizor take the first hit, and after his status recovers Milotic comes in and takes the second. He can survive another hit with the lowered SpA on Draco Meteor #3 and then I Recover and kill with Ice Beam.
    Magnezone: I first try to switch out; if I can't then obviously he has Magnet Pull. Since Scizor is stuck, I immediately use Superpower for the kill and switch him out on the next Pokemon to eliminate the status drops.
    Electric Pokemon with Air Balloon: This is pretty annoying too. I usually just Bug Bite with Scizor then finish them off with Bullet Punch; I take a lot of damage in the process but I don't know a better way to deal with this with my current team.

    I lost on battle 101 because it was late at night and I was falling asleep >_> so I was basically just hitting buttons and let Milotic and Garchomp die. Before that I was cruising and pretty much defeating most trainers 3-0; because this team is so bulky and utilizes almost all 100 accuracy moves (only Toxic, Rock Slide, and Fire Blast aren't and the latter two are very rarely used) it is fairly resistant to hax. I'm pretty confident of my ability to get a longer streak as long as I can maintain concentration for such a long period of time or end up breaking up my sessions.
  24. ashez

    ashez

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    hi all :)

    some great streaks already well done everyone :)

    i havent started properly streaking yet just trying out some rough ideas to decide what to go with but will be starting serious streaks this week hopefully :)

    so far i've defo decided on a branded chomp and just doing some calcs etc for final 2

    good lucky everyone :)
  25. NoCheese

    NoCheese I'll play the wild Lombre, no never no more
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    Continuing the discussion on the possibility of stealth rock leads, I've been playing around with lead stealth rock Skarmory I mooted earlier. It actually works okay, and Skarmory can stall out a ton of things while still setting up rocks, while also making Garchomp's sweeping less likely to be interrupted by sturdy/sash pokes. Still, the loss of tempo from opening with a supporter rather than a sweeper can indeed be painful. Battles also go a lot more slowly than with an all offensive team, and it is even more important to check the moveset lists, since given that you are already behind on tempo, one wrong decision is more likely to be fatal to the streak.

    I've tried both skarmory/garchomp/heatran and skarmory/garchomp/scizor. I've pulled a 49+ streak with each, but it's a long way to 100. I'll post more team details if I can get a more respectable streak out of a skarmory lead, but so far an offensive lead has been more successful, even with all the irksome focus sash and sturdy pokes in the subway. Haven't given up hope yet, but definitely do not go with a stealth rock lead if you are looking to rack up BP quickly.

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