Well I can only go from what I have experienced and I've found this particular Dragonite set without crippler support to be a tad disappointing. I mean, you say that it do all of those things with a Dragon Dance boost, but what about if you DON'T have the Dragon Dance that you say it needs to do all that PP stalling? Multiscale may protect you from a crit, but being so slow is just asking for a flinch, status or defence drop from anything faster to screw you. Hell Dragonite only had 160 speed after 1 boost (assuming you have flawless IVs, you use the 204HP/252att spread with an Adamant nature and you put all the leftover points in speed for 107) so it still gets outsped by many things which means you're going to take 2 hits before you can stall them properly. Obviously I'm not going to care much about burn, but what are you going to do if you get hit by Toxic, or frozen by Blizzard, before you have enough speed? Roost helps but it can only take you so far, especially against Toxic. Maybe I was unlucky but it happened a fair bit to me when I tried to use it on a team without Whimsicott/another crippler. This is why Thunder Wave (or some other paralysing/speed lowering move) is, in my opinion, highly essential when using it. Stat-reducing moves like Memento are also highly valuable, since Dragonite will have a harder time keeping sub up without them against many things. Suicune on the other hand can Rest off status (in almost every case, it does not care about being asleep for 2 turns) and it can even remove freeze with Scald. The ability to not care about status barring ridiculous hax (i.e. consecutive full paralysis turns) is Suicune's main advantage. Suicune is arguably just as vulnerable to flinches as Dragonite, but its superior bulk especially when Multiscale is out of the picture means that only multiple flinches in a row are going to bother it most of the time (with Dragonite, one flinch from a faster pokemon breaks Multiscale and now it isn't as bulky anymore so it takes twice as much damage from the follow-up hit - what if it's a crit?) and with Calm Mind only multiple physical defence drops are going to screw Suicune. Crits still worry Suicune, especially since it doesn't boost its Speed (unless you want to use Icy Wind, but I prefer its other moves), so I guess Dragonite wins here, assuming it is faster than the opponent, but it takes consecutive crits to stop Suicune most of the time, just like Dragonite. Plus, Suicune's subs are harder to crack overall and with practice you can predict when it will break and just set up a new one on the same turn (well, unless it's a crit but that's why people use sub right?). So yes, with enough speed from Dragon Dance Dragonite can PP stall rock and ice attacks and set up on pretty much anything, but without support it can be difficult to get the required speed behind it to do this against many opponents. Suicune can do this without the support, without the speed and especially with Pressure. I guess you could argue the same thing about Calm Mind and strong special electric attacks, and make Dragonite seem like the better pokemon, but Suicune stalls rock and ice better than Dragonite can stall electric anyway. Now I'll admit that I undersold Dragonite a bit with my other post because it can still set up and PP stall plenty of stuff, and the extra speed when it starts to accumulate boosts is great, but if I was going to use a non-crippler team and I had to pick between the standard set up Suicune and the standard set up Dragonite, I would go with Suicune anyday, because I am of the opinion that it is more reliable and self-sufficient than this particular Dragonite set (I prefer my more offensive Lum Berry set for more offensive teams). I wasn't trying to say that Dragonite is bad without support and I apologise if it came across that way (using the word 'sucks' was a bad idea; I should have said 'not as good' lol). In fact, Dragonite is actually one of the best. I was just saying that Suicune is better without support (with support from a crippler, Dragonite is at least as good and arguably better than Suicune anyway). Alternatively, just use them on the same team and get the best of both worlds! P.S. not sure why I rambled on like this since you weren't trying to say that Suicune is worse and Dragonite is better, but I was just trying to explain my point of view better!