You and I are perhaps in the best position to appreciate the feeling that Icicle Spear feeling (plus the five-hit thing too which basically goes without saying) given the thousands of battles we've spent Glenscarfing over the years. This is why I was especially rooting for that seven 3-0 sweep by Cloyster because I know we've averaged about 15 turns per battle with Glenscarfing with our teams. With your Latias/Registeel/Garchomp, this is probably fair (not that you didn't post logs of this too but I don't really have to go back to look at those): Trick TW Charm×2 Flash×2 Switch To Registeel Sub×3 Curse×6 Amnesia×3 IH×5 That's 24 turns we can call it 25, whatever. I think you said you used Garchomp only 10% of the time but that seems low (and I dont feel like looking) so I'll say 25% tops, and those battles seem like they'd be 12 turns long on average given dumb TW lock stuff, otherwise 14ish (first six then switch to Chomp, then SD×3, Sub, then three moves to sweep), so like mostly 20 turns on average is fair. Cloyster is basically four turns if it works, which it did 2/3 of the time for you (65.04%). Let's say battles are 12 turns otherwise (Set up Cune), for average of about 7 (6.66 to be exact, 2/3 of 4 plus 1/3 of 12) turns per battle. This means your Cloyster team is literally three times faster than your Latias/Registeel/Garchomp team. Obviously, reliability between the two teams is the issue (one's a 2,000+ win team and the other is 200+, even if that's not really fair given that the Subway is unequivocally much harder than the Plat Frontier) but sometimes the real issue is boredom! I'm not going to go through the same exercise with my teams (Team Drapula I vs Haxorus/Scizor/Starmie) because it's obviously going to be comparable: battles are about 1/3 of the time. This is a big deal if you can actually rely on your team for hundreds of battles otherwise, especially in the Subway. Think about it—there's one team over 500 wins so far and the most reliable teams on the top of the leaderboard are unarguably Glenscarfing teams (crippling included) teams. The majority of those teams, I'd argue, take about 20 turns per battle as well, maybe even more (Acupressure with Tentacruel and using Shuckle and Ferrothorn are, as stated by their users, slow). My own Whimsy team is about this long at its longest: Taunt Charm Memento Trick TW Cripple (Flash/Charm as needed)×4 Switch to Draggy DD×6 Sub×3 Roost×2 DC×3 For ~23 turns. If it's an idiot like Tauros4 or Granbull4 that will spam Toxic on Draggy's Sub, the battle is Taunt/Switch/Sub/DD×6/DC×3 for 12 turns, though that's probably less than 10% in rarity so battles are still usually around 20 turns. With Haxorus, battles are seriously four or five turns about 70% of the time: it can seriously DD on just about anything then then sweep with Outrage or EQ when it snaps out of confusion. If there were an Ice/Steel type to come out second and resist Outrage and threaten a OHKO then things would be different, but there isn't (and Scizor and Starmie would piss on such a type). Anyway I guess this touches on the second part of your post lol: 135 Speed for those, yeah. This was initially EVed for my Uxie/Haxorus/Volcarona team but the concept is identical, and I didn't see a reason not to outspeed though if possible since at least 134 Speed was mandatory. As usual, 1 Speed point is more valuable than 1 "Defense" point. You're not nitpicking btw, this the exact opposite. I post my teams to be analyzed by all so I'm enjoying the comments. I meant 6 for Scizor, it's definitely 252/252/6 as it needs 248 HP/Attack are both worse than 252 at Lv50. I guess it is kind of ironic I'm using Timid LO Starmie, I really didn't get why you used that in Gen IV because Modest EB seemed to be better because there was so much less shit it had to worry about being outpaced by...I don't remember you having similar thought about Scarfchomp though as I used it in Gen V (though I do wonder if you really feel you need 252 Speed EVs you only tie with opposing Scarfchomp and Garchomp/Suicine seem to beat the rest of the 201-250 pokes by virtue of typing and "being Suicune" regardless). If I have time I'll go down the list and post how many pokemon my lead Haxorus matches up well with. But basically, if you don't have at least 95 Base HP and 90 Defense AND max HP, you are going to die to +1 Outrage (if you're not a Steel-type). And Haxorus's beauty further stems from the fact that it can EQ through Bronzong's Levitate and Bastiodon/Aggron/Magnezone Sturdy...it's not exactly OHKOing Steelix or Forretress, but liek I stated above: no Steel/Ice types so Haxorus doesn't care. I'd do actual logs if I were thrilled with the notion of using a worse team with such a high streak, lol Anyway, I'm glad Suicune was mentioned because I hadn't really thought about it yet (though I hadn't really sought to answer my own question yet) and I have used it more than enough to sound off on it. Now "I swear by Icy Wind" as I have for like seven years" but I have tried Sub over Icy Wind...I just wasn't a huge fan. I think the time I tried it was with Cobalion, on a lead CB Chomp and Max HP/Spe Jolly Sacred/IH/TW/SD Cobalion team, and that teams appreciated Speed drops a lot more than a Suicune/Scizor tandem may. That said, such a tandem would immediately be a tad tricky, because Cobalion needed the Leftovers much more than Suicune while Flinching with Iron Head or generally benefitting from FPs. While Scizor may not need them as much it still loves them...and I know that a few Suicune have used Lum with Sub so I can't knock that any more than atsync can knock Lefties/Roost Scizor (I have used both Lum and Sub though, just only for like 14-21 battles). Perhaps a Scizor@Lefties/Sub/CM Suicune@Lum tandem would work since the main reason for Icy Wind is to allow for revenge kills should Suicune die. Garchomp immediately springs to mind on such a team as a lead, I suppose Lum wouldn't work because of Suicune and I would greatly prefer CB anyway because Scizor and Suicune more than back it up defensively when switches are needed as they often are with a Choiced Goodstuffs poke. I immediately caution "myself" though because Volcarona4 has shown itself to be kind of a bitch (in a good way, bad but good) to a few of my Goodstuffs exploits, because Starmie can't OHKO it and neither can Latios and Suicune has real issues beating it if it gets too many boosts. For reference, CB Jolly Garchomp EQ only does 62-74% and Outrage only does 75-89%, so even if Garchomp is locked into the right move Volcarona can be trouble, especially with its own Leftovers. This is part of the reason I love Haxorus so much...while +1 Outrage surprisingly doesn't always kill, Haxorus can DD on it while it Quiver Dances and fire away with Outrage (89-105%) knowing that, worse cast, Scizor can almost always clean up even through the resist, the could-not-be-more-defensive 252HP/252Def Impish Leftovers Volcarona. Regardless of all that, it's probably my "speedy" leanings that have me siding Scizor over Suicune more than anything else, but can you blame me etc.