Mods at showdown are saying it's back in Uber, can anyone confirm this?
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Pokémon Blaziken
- Thread starter Spenstar
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As if it was gonna stay in OU though -_-
just tested - Blaziken (along with normal-form Deoxys for some reason) is still OU at the moment
Agree with this whole statement.
As for the bolded part that's to say Blaze Blaziken is even OU worthy. To me its outclassed by Infernape as a mixed attacker, CB set and SD sweeper, the only set it can compare is Choice Scarf and locking yourself into Hi Jump Kick doesn't sound that appealing, especially with Mega Gengar still in OU.
You are also forgetting Blaziken has to worry a lot less about residual damage from sand/hail weakening it; as well as rain weakening it's fire STAB.
Those easily outweigh the pros of the 3rd most common weather Blaziken actually got benefits from. If the 2 more common ones hurt it [Residual damage on something that frail and 50% reduction of one STAB+weakness gets bigger.]
The weather changes are also a massive buff to Blaziken; especially as HJK is resisted by Fairy; so Blaziken can just resort to it's Fire STAB on them without having to worry about rain.
And even if Talonflame and Azumarill revenge kill it:
- Talonflame takes 50% from Stealth Rock. You just switch out. It can only revenge kill; you've already KO'ed something
- Azumarill is vulnerable to all hazards. It is almost always banded. Protect to scout the move; Switch out. Come back later and finish the job.
Literally the only nerf to Blaziken this gen is Talonflame; while he benefits from the weather changes; gets BP; and has Blazikenite which gives him 40 extra base ATK; 10 extra of each defense and 20 more speed so he outspeeds even more; quicker. He's still Uber; it's pretty clear.
Either one. They both essentially play the same, but I'll just talk about Mega Blaziken from here on out to avoid confusion.
Well of course they can sweep if you Baton Pass boosts to them. Anything can do that. Mega Blaziken doesn't need boosts passed to it. In addition, Mega Garchomp is rarely sweeping at all. Base 92 Spe is far too slow to get through an offensive team without running into problems with faster Pokemon, so instead, Mega Garchomp uses its great STABs and high offensive stats to act as an excellent wall breaker. Mega Lucario is great and all, but unlike Blaziken, it relies on Bullet Punch to hit anything faster. If the opponent is faster (whether naturally or with a Choice Scarf) and can handle Bullet Punch, Lucario is probably going to be at a risk of being KO'd due to its frailty. Blaziken doesn't worry about anything faster because there's simply nothing faster than a +2 Mega Blaziken bar a small handful of weather sweepers.
So that's pretty much just Azumarill and Talonflame. As for the other priority, Mega Blaziken can actually handle several priority moves besides Bullet Punch pretty well. For example:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 153-183 (50.66 - 60.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 134-159 (44.37 - 52.64%) -- 19.92% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 121-142 (40.06 - 47.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 177-209 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 126-149 (41.72 - 49.33%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 51-61 (16.88 - 20.19%) -- possible 5HKO
Mega Blaziken can take any of these attacks, KO the user, and keep sweeping. The fact that it doesn't take Life Orb recoil makes it even harder to wear down so that you can KO with a priority move. Sure Blaziken is threatened by Azumarill and Talonflame, so don't try to sweep when those two are around.
Yes, but Garchomp is more of a wall breaker and not a sweeper. Pokemon like Starmie, Greninja, Latios, Noivern, Kyurem-B, Salamence, Haxorus, Hydreigon, Genesect, or pretty much anything else faster with a super effective attack can threaten to KO it. The fact that it's so much slower is what sets it apart from Blaziken.
Lucario doesn't handle priority as well as you might think it does. With Stealth Rock down, Talonflame's CB Brave Bird has a 75% chance to OHKO (Flying Gem Acrobatics, once its available, will OHKO 25% of the time). Conkeldurr survives Bullet Punch pretty easily and does 72.34 - 85.81% with an Iron Fist Mach Punch, even without a boosting item. Breloom will die to Bullet Punch most of the time, but when it survives (about a 25% chance from full health), Mach Punch will always OHKO. Azumarill's Aqua Jet is knocking off ~50% of Lucario's health on average, and it takes Bullet Punch pretty well. Now, that normally wouldn't be that big of a problem were it not for Close Combat and the defense drops that come with it. If Lucario has used Close Combat just once, it starts taking a lot more damage from priority attacks. Scizor's Bullet Punch can now hit for over 50% damage. Azumarill now does a 70% minimum with Aqua Jet. That Conkeldurr I mentioned earlier will now always OHKO with Mach Punch, and Talonflame OHKOs effortlessly.
Plus, you have to remember that Bullet Punch is literally the only thing stopping certain faster opponents from taking Lucario out. If the opponent is faster than Lucario and can take a Bullet Punch, Lucario is either forced out or KO'd. This includes things like Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Keldeo, Starmie, Greninja, Scarf Landorus-I/T, Scarf Thundurus-I/T, Scarf Rotom-W (needs a little bit of prior damage to OHKO with Hydro Pump, though), etc. Blaziken doesn't have to worry about any of these. The only relevant things that can outspeed it and OHKO are Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Talonflame's Brave Bird/Acrobatics. Compared to Lucario's list, that's actually extremely mild. In addition, Lucario has a couple of hard counters just like Blaziken does, such as RestTalk Gyarados, Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Slowbro if you're not running Crunch, and Landorus-T and Gliscor if you're not running Ice Punch. The difference is that while Lucario is forced out by these counters and loses the boosts and momentum it gained, Blaziken simply Baton Passes its boosts to a teammate and lets them continue the carnage.
I'm confused. Are you saying that Blaziken doesn't handle Togekiss as well as I think it does? Because as I explained earlier, Togekiss doesn't stand a chance. It can't outspeed a +1 Mega Blaziken even with a Choice Scarf, and even the most physically defensive spread possible will still die to a +2 Flare Blitz almost every time with no prior damage whatsoever. You'd have about the same results by tossing a Magikarp out in front of Blaziken.
For reference, here's the exact calculation of Adamant Mega Blaziken vs the physically defensive Togekiss spread currently being written up in its preview thread:
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Togekiss: 385-454 (103.21 - 121.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Counters- All Calcs are done from Mega Blaziken, so I changed the attack stat to 160.
(Stone Edge/EQ)
Jellicent - +2 252+ Atk Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 251-296 (62.28 - 73.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Slowbro- +2 252+ Atk Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.71 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Latias: 270-318 (74.17 - 87.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Shadow Claw/EQ)
+1 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 171-201 (43.51 - 51.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Any Set)
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp (Zygrade): 342-403 (81.42 - 95.95%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 357-420 (88.36 - 103.96%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 291-343 (76.17 - 89.79%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 349-412 (83.09 - 98.09%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 290-342 (79.88 - 94.21%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Cannot counter EQ set but counters Shadow Claw sets a lot better)
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 319-376 (72 - 84.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Checks
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 288-342 (95.36 - 113.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Talonflame~
Focus Sash Magic Guard Alakazam~
252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 257-304 (85.09 - 100.66%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also, Prankster users can always Thunder wave Blaze which would make him much more easier to deal with.
Smogon can always ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass Blaze so everyone needs to stop freaking out over it. Similarly how Sand Veil Garchomp was Uber, it could be the same except with a move not the ability.
(Stone Edge/EQ)
Jellicent - +2 252+ Atk Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 251-296 (62.28 - 73.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Slowbro- +2 252+ Atk Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.71 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Latias: 270-318 (74.17 - 87.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Shadow Claw/EQ)
+1 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 171-201 (43.51 - 51.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Any Set)
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp (Zygrade): 342-403 (81.42 - 95.95%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 357-420 (88.36 - 103.96%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 291-343 (76.17 - 89.79%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 349-412 (83.09 - 98.09%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 290-342 (79.88 - 94.21%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Cannot counter EQ set but counters Shadow Claw sets a lot better)
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 319-376 (72 - 84.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Checks
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 288-342 (95.36 - 113.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Talonflame~
Focus Sash Magic Guard Alakazam~
252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 257-304 (85.09 - 100.66%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also, Prankster users can always Thunder wave Blaze which would make him much more easier to deal with.
Smogon can always ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass Blaze so everyone needs to stop freaking out over it. Similarly how Sand Veil Garchomp was Uber, it could be the same except with a move not the ability.
According to the pinned banlist in UT, the only currently banned Pokemon with below 670 BST are Darkrai, Shaymin-S, and Deoxys-A. Not sure why they decided to draw the line between Deoxys and Deoxys-A, but they did. Of course, none of this even matters in official metagames for the next two months anyway.
I can't complain about the starting banlist, especially since I'm running Mega Pinsir, but I'll be impressed if Blaziken manages to stay OU.
IIRC it was Sand Veil itself that was banned, not SV Garchomp, and that was on the grounds that SV was uncompetitive. (I remember Cacturne getting the shaft during that episode)
Don't think that Baton Pass + Speed Boost is the problem. Ninjask and Scolipede aren't anything gamebreaking, its only Blaziken that's the problem. The fact that it can shred most of the meta after a boost (including a number of your counters, I might add), can only be picked off by a few priority users, can't be outsped after a turn or two, AND can pass all of these boosts to another 'mon if it can't go on make it utterly ridiculous.
Blaziken was banned last gen, and its only gotten better this gen. I wouldn't count on it lasting long in OU.
Depending on the set can blaziken get by the counters I listed, if SR is up.
True, bad example. A better one is Suicune was banned with Water Absorb last Gen. Smogon simply does not allow Baton Pass on Blaze and wala problem solved. Or, Ban Blazekinite like Soul Dew.
Replies.
Exactly how I feel about it. If it manages to stay OU, it'd be interesting. If it gets banned back to Ubers... I won't be surprised.
Blaziken is using Brave Bird this gen.
Brave Bird? And what can it do other than attacking Azumarill for neutral damage?
(Or it's such a big deal it's just used for that)
If I were to use a third attacking move, I'd run Stone Edge or Shadow Claw over Brave Bird any day. Stone Edge can let you nail Flying types (although Talonflame would never switch in), while Shadow Claw can hit ghosts who want to switch into Hi Jump Kick. This goes especially for Flash Fire Chandelure, who is immune to both of Blaziken's STAB attacks and could potentially be used as a niche counter if Blaziken dominates the metagame too much. Of course he could always Baton Pass his boosts away once Chandelure comes in, so a third attacking move isn't even that necessary.
Most of these aren't actually "counters" because they can't switch in, and some even die with a hit + SR damage. Furthermore, several of them, while being able to handle one set, cannot handle the other variant. In addition, Blaziken's not just gonna set up an SD turn one and go to town - it'll be brought in a bit later, when its checks are weakened. That's what support is for. Not to mention that if Blaze has his Baton Pass set, he doesn't even care about most of these and can pass to... Oh, I dunno, Gyarados? Garchomp? Excadrill? Scizor? Lucario? Who cares? He passes his torch to another, fresh 'mon to sweep from there.
Pokemon Blazing Ruby
Choose a level 5 Mudkip, Fennekin, or Treeko as your starter. The legendary you fight is a level 45 Mega Blaziken that can actually hold items. Groudon is where you would find it in Emerald. 10/10 would get
All your math is correct, but you are forgetting that SR will not be all the time and the Blaziken STAB recoil, so those 2HKO can kill him quickly and azumarril and talonflame will be all over the place so it's kinda bad for blaziken in my opinon a week sweeper that lose to the top 2 priorities and uses a sd and speed bost it's more usefull with batton pass, besides i was making the comparision between an a batton passer reciver (for example garchomp and lucario) and blaziken that doesn't need recive a batton pass for get Atk and Speed, do you remember why this discussion between me and you start right?= Blaziken is a better batton passer for me than a sweeper, it was a good discussion i learn a lot, but i still prefer a batton passer reciver, in order to sweep and recive it from Blaziken, also he is back to Uber so other sweepers are there too, the discussion turns pointless now for me, cheers.
So what you're pretty much saying is that you'd rather run regular Blaziken alongside another Mega Pokemon as a Baton Pass receiver instead of using up your Mega slot for Mega Blaziken? That I can agree with. One thing I've always said about Blaziken is that while Mega Blaziken is good, it's not entirely necessary. Regular Blaziken is still fantastic, and it leaves you with an open Mega slot for Mega Garchomp, Mega Lucario, Mega Gengar, etc. I just wanted to make it clear that if you do want to plan a team around a Mega Blaziken sweep, it's one of the best in the business.
Greninja is a worthy counter? (Also Dragalge and MegarizarY?)
Also, how about Overheat with MBlaze?
Anyhow, Normal Blaze will be going OU and Mega in Ubers, IMO.
Also, how about Overheat with MBlaze?
Anyhow, Normal Blaze will be going OU and Mega in Ubers, IMO.
You nail it here, that's what i was trying to say in my early posts, but i mix one or two things more (sorry, english is not may main lenguage). But in any case Mega blaziken can be a better a batton passer and sweeper than regular blaziken, that can be obiouse, but for some megas is not the same history.
Fair enough, but I still stand by my original statement: nothing
I'm running a batton passer blaziken for now, i want to try mega blaziken but i still need to make some changes in order to cover his weekneses, you might see my attempt at RTM lol
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