Blaziken

Chou Toshio

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Disclaimer: I am making this post without anywhere near full understanding of all the new pokemon/moves/etc.

While this is a new generation, I think there is a lot to learn from 4th Gen, because if anything, this generation is going to be even more difficult to pull off sweeps, and be even more packed with speed-boosting-item/ability users and priority users than the last.

Keeping this in mind, let's go over some facts we know from 4th Gen:

In 4th Gen, here is a list of all the successful OU setup sweepers that had paper-thin defenses:






. . .

. . .

Yeah. I think you get my point. I guess you could argue for Lucario, but we all know that only worked because of a ridiculously powerful priority move and fantastic resistances to abuse while setting up Swords Dance. Blaziken lacks good defensive stats and good resistances. The point is that in a metagame with powerful priority users and also extremely powerful enemy defensive pokemon, you will be extremely hard-pressed to setup sweep without good bulk.

Pokemon with high speed and power but paper thin defenses were generally Wall Breakers, high speed and power without any real setup-- just blast off the bat. Maybe abuse substitute, but that was the extent of "setup." Think about Starmie, Infernape, Jolteon, Gengar, etc. etc. and you will see this clearly.

Frankly speaking, speed boost certainly seems astounding at first, but the more I think about it the more disappointing it seems. Immediate speed and power were always infernape's most powerful weapons-- Infernape never tried (or never successfully) boosted to sweep, because if it failed to attack the turn it came in, it would most likely be forced out without accomplishing anything.

Without Protect, Blaziken cannot come in and threaten as many enemies as Infernape, this is the simple fact. Furthermore, Protect is not an ideal solution against initially faster opponents, giving the opponent essentially an easily predictable turn to switch or setup themselves. We also know that Infernape needed all 4 of its move slots to achieve good coverage on its mixed set (Fire/Fighting/Grass/Ice was the most common for most of the generation) unless it wanted to rely on fail-edge, and seeing as Rock didn't get any new and better attacks, this is a problem that will continue. Blaziken's dependance on Protect or Substitute is a definite hinderance.

Essentially, Speed Boost's value is extremely questionable in the role of a Wall Breaker (mixsweeper) assuming you'll simply be forced out in 2-3 turns. As a sweeper though, we run into the issue of Blaziken's abysmal resistances and defensive stats. ;/

It's really not so simple to figure out just what's the best way to abuse its Speed Boost ability.

Honestly, I think Substitute + 3 Attacks against slower pokemon like Blissey/Skarm seems to be the most effective setup, and simply use Substitute to enhance your Mixed Wall-Breaking abilities (like Tyraniboah, but insanely fast), letting you kill one enemy and severely beat face on a second. Something sort of between a wall break and sweep strategy, with potential for both. Even something like Substitute with Blaze and potentially Petaya in your back pocket and blaziken's ridiculous offensive stats should be enough power to seriously intimidate your opponent without even having to touch Swords Dance.


The one thing any Blaziken user should realize, is that Blaziken is never going to be an extreme reliable sweeper like Lucario or Empoleon-- it simply does not have the defenses which are so critically important.

So I think it's safe to establish the following as undeniable:

a) Blaziken will never be able to reliably setup and sweep like Empoleon, Lucario, or Metagross.

b) Blaziken lacks the initial speed to match Infernape in pure Wall Breaking, as it cannot threaten as many enemies on that first, critical turn.


But, Blaziken can certainly aim for a strategy that falls between those two extremes of offensive attacking. On one hand, there are pokemon in OU who are initially slower than it, and if it comes in on them it can serious reek havoc Wall-Breaker style. On the other, it can potentially sweep a whole team, without even needing a power boost should the opponent be careless. While Infernape and Empoleon both have to specialize their movesets and effectively limit themselves to only 1 style (type) of offensive threat, Blaziken presents the constant threat of both to the opponent-- a dual danger in one pokemon that will be extremely difficult to deal with, and can potentially force stupid decisions that allow Blaziken's team mates to sweep.


On a final note, all I can say is that it's a true shame Speed Boost + Baton Pass is illegal. :/
 

Chou Toshio

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Osostewie-- We're talking about Blaziken specifically, whether it can get Speed Boost + Baton Pass in game legally because Baton Pass is an egg move.

make sure u remember the fact that the tiers will be dramatically reshaped and i feel like some uber pokemon are necessary to prepare for.honestly the sd set seems to have the overwhelming force necessary to finish off an opponent, but i dont know how hed fair against the newer pokemon(still dont know the walling potential)

but i feel like blaze could greatly appreciate an electric ally for bulky water or jaroda(i think this guy will be beastly with leaf storm)
Well, we'll see-- but this is also unconfirmed. You never know, common sense and reason might still prevail in PR policy. :/ There's a fair chance anyway.
 

Chou Toshio

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Oh, I am all for letting all the 600's down (though some might argue about Darkai and Deoxys, we'll see). Starting from letting all of Arceus' creations in is something I don't want to see-- I also don't like the mentality we are "testing" when we should simply be "playing while banning shit."

Let's get back to talking about Blaziken though.
 
wow that was an impressive and persuasive arguement now that youhave laid out the arguements so clearly i feel like you are right in many aspects but i dont know how much the game is going to change so i cant help but feel like blaze will lose all function to stall break. in all truth there are going to be very few walls that are going to be able to handle this generation with pokemon like shanderaa and the dragon with gigantic147 attack the fact is walls will become virtually eliminated unlesss the uber walls come down a tier because no way can a steel type thrive in a shadow tag shanderaa environment. im betting that speeed and strength become the determining factors (actually i should add priority also) and because i feel like blaze is going to be a key player more for his ability to outspeed nonpriority users hopefully unstopped. subbing seems like his only option for priority users because of paper defenses.... he can only thrive if the majority of walls die off and the game becomes mainly revenge killers and set up sweepers
 
I'll be running wide lens on my mixed Ken, Then there will be a lot less chance of all his moves missing since they all have imperfect accuracy. Its worth the loss of LO power.
 
I would just go with 3 attacks and sword dance with a lum berry as Blaziken will generally force a lot of switch. I don't really like protect as it really seems like a waste.
 

Chou Toshio

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You know what's a waste? Being forced out by the enemy switch in without doing ANYTHING because the enemy switched in something not KO'd at +2. You know what's a waste? Using Physical Fire attacks instead of special ones when Special Fire is definitely more damaging overall.

Substitute, once set up successfully, lets you sure-fire kill something (hitting the switch in twice with your most powerful attack), and Blaziken has the power to punish pretty much any pokemon that comes in after that kill without any power boost at all.

Overall, I'd say substitute seems completely superior for Blaziken.


BTW: Here's a list of all the pokemon in 4th Gen OU pokemon who were successful SD/NP sweepers without powerful priority moves:

Garchomp, Manaphy


Both of whom were amongst the bulkiest pokemon in the entire tier, with excellent defensive typing to match along with almost unresisted STAB. Blaziken has . . . none of that. ;/
 
But this is a totally new metagame. And no other boosting Sweeper has had Speed Boost. And Lucario is totally successful. Nastyape somewhat less.

Edit: Ok, Lucario has ExtremeSpeed. Sorry. But still, this isn't DPPt.

And by "Successful" do you mean "banned to Ubers"?

Also, DD T-Tar and Gyarados are pissed at you for calling them unsuccessful.
 
You can't make that comparison of "successful SDers"-at all. Blaziken has Speed Boost as its ability, therefore any direct comparisons you make to Garchomp/Manaphy are nullified. I really can't say anymore, as we don't have any experience in a metagame with a Pokemon with the stat distribution, combination of STAB, movepool, and ability of Blaziken.
 
i agree sub seems very handy but limits uses, but i dont feel like that is a bad thing because the simpler the plan the less likely you are to fail, but i dont feel a sub petaya set is remotely viable because of sandstorm probably still seeing action and dying behind a sub sucks so much. empoleon pulls it off because of the sstorm resist really thats it. honestly im wanting a sd sub set despite the supremely disappointing lack of coverage...

god i hope he can bp... i hate ninjask and always wanted to make a semithreatening offensive bp chain.
 
Osostewie-- We're talking about Blaziken specifically, whether it can get Speed Boost + Baton Pass in game legally because Baton Pass is an egg move.
iirc, cant you breed a poke that has an ability, give it an item, and the egg has a chance to retain the ability of the pokemon that held the item/had that ability?
 
btw ttar is a god when used right... despite lack of priority
Inorite?

That guy called DD T-Tar unsuccessful. Heresy! Blasphemy!

iirc, cant you breed a poke that has an ability, give it an item, and the egg has a chance to retain the ability of the pokemon that held the item/had that ability?
Is this something new? Because Abilitites have always been (psuedo)random when breeding.
 
Chou, have you done any calulations for the sheer power +2 High Jump Kick and Flare Blitz can pump out? 4/0 Gyarados is OHKOed after Stealth Rocks. Even Tentacruel who runs Bold with max/max barely survives a hit after Stealth rocks. With Spikes support a Blaziken can run any Pokemon to the ground with just two moves (besides Flash Fire Shanderaa lol). Protect in the last slot guarantees no Scarfer will out speed you.. barring Ditto.

Lucario runs Extremespeed because its slow, not for coverage. Blaziken is naturally fast so it likely doesn't need priority. With Protect Blaziken doesn't really need to run much speed. Thanks to HP investment most enemy priority moves won't even 2HKO.
 
It's kind of hard to compare to past sweepers because they didn't get an automatic speed boost, now blaziken is almost guaranteed to be faster barring a choice scarf, and I rather not waste a moveset for substitute over better coverage.
 
Um, you're forgetting something: Late-game sweeping.

Lucario's sweeps were late-game. True, Agility Lucario was a great early-game sweeper against pure offensive teams (Which are almost nonexistent now), but SD Lucario was used late game when the threats were gone.

Late-game sweepers are the nastiest to encounter. They show up after being carefully concealed. By that point, your obvious and even semi-obvious checks have been eliminated, assuming you're playing a good player (Who are the only ones able to really use late-game sweepers to their full extent). Not only that, but the rest of your team has probably been weakened just right so that it folds to the opposing Pokemon relatively easily.

Infernape was a great late-game set-up sweeper. Weaken stuff a bit, remove priority users, and BAM, you have a sweep once you've set up. True, he broke walls like paper, but he could opt for the straight-up sweep too. Tyrannitar was also a FANTASTIC late game sweeper. Once you'd done enough scouting, you could claim victory easily. For example, I knew my opponent's check for Tyrannitar was Scizor. When people use Scizor, they tend to slap him on and go "Done." Well, I was using Babiritar >:). So I switched in, DDed as he went for Scizor, and OHKOd him with Stone Edge after he failed to kill with Bullet Punch. With Scizor gone, I had the sweep set-up. Being late game, I'd also weakened his Skarmory severely by Knock Off-ing it's Leftovers and causing it to switch into SR several times. I'd also Taunted it earlier to prevent Roost. It comes in and dies to Stone Edge. After that, there wasn't really anything he had to stop me. Thanks to careful scouting, I was able to predict his response and act appropriately to ensure that he would not be able to stop me once I set-up.

So I CAN see Blaziken being a great Wall-breaker. However, I can also see it murdering offensive teams with Sub+boosting move sets to get 2 Speed boosts (One on the switch, one as the sub breaks) or just plain Sub sets, but that will be less successful, as you said. What I really see Blaziken rocking at is late-game sweeping, as it has everything it needs to destroy stuff, but (Like all Pokemon) has counters that need to be removed.

So, basically, use Blaziken wisely and play well with him (Use lures, bait, trap, etc.) and he'll be murder late-game.

And yes, I realize this is true for most Pokemon, but Blaziken seems tailor-made for this job.
 
i dont understand then y point out the lack of priority on other sweepers... the point of ddance is it makes u ungodly fast and ddance is worse than sdance and speed boost so why even bring that up when there are less boosted attacks and speedy pokemon doing almost the same thing? its apples and oranges... sb blaze cant be adequately quantified by comparing to other sd users... it s most similar to dragon dance users.

@neoseth yes very much concur and although the thread seems to try and make a blaziken that is unstoppable the factbremains the guy needs to remain in his niche and not try to be something hes not... like a bulky boosting sweeper... he needs a sd or at least protect in order to take care faster scarves(god i wish he had extremespeed... or even if mirror move could obtain priority) thats it... hes not like ttar where u try as many boosts as hp enable
 

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