Project Break This Team (Week 42)

I won't have time to post a core so voting can begin. Thanks anyway Sobi. If you or passersby want to organise it otherwise I can after work. Mobiles are not good for compiling links
 
SD Pinsir + SD Talonflame (aka Birdspam)

pinsir-mega.png
talonflame (1).png

Pinsir-Mega (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

Talonflame (F) @ Sky Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Swords Dance

Description:

So the obvious key weakness to this team is extremely strong priority, so classic Pinsir/Talon birdspam seems to do relatively well vs. this team. Birdspam grants your team two solid anti-leads to Scoli, two strong af priority users to maneuver around Scoli's speed boosts, and exploits the teams lack of defense very well. The answers to these two boil down to an offensive Landorus-T and offensive Heatran (Heatran lacking anything that hits Talon well aside from EPower on Roosts), both of which seriously lack the sheer bulk to deal with these two combined.

Replay:
  • Link (thanks Creator of Chaos!)---I'd like to preface by saying this doesn't showcase the core too well, but rather the general threat powerful priority poses to this team (hence why BD Azu did so well here). I lead with Pinsir to counter-lead Scoli but get read and am met with Lando, which then sets up BD Azu nicely. From there, I kill Scoli, pressure Lando in for the intimidate, which then leaves Pinsir completely unopposed. Talonflame + Pinsir take down Tran and Lati cleans up the game. It's important to emphasize how critical the ability to counter-abuse Scoli is with these two---especially considering that should you get to +2 as Pinsir vs. this team, the opponent instantly loses or has to sac multiple 'mons so Lando can intimidate it down.
 
Alright, the period for core submission is over. Thanks for the support. We have quite a few strong hitters and priority users this time, as was discussed before. As usual, no voting for your own core. You are allowed up to 2 votes. Reasoning for votes are highly encouraged, even if it's just one or two sentences.

Core 1 - Thundurus-I + Landorus-T

Core 2 - Mega Heracross + Jirachi

Core 3 - Azumarill + Bisharp + Mega Altaria

Core 4 - Mega Pinsir + Azumarill

Core 5 - Mega Gardevoir + Talonflame

Core 6 - Mega Pinsir + Talonflame
 
Core 6 - This BP team is quite weak to strong attackers and their main method of boosting Spe is bypassed by the Priority Flying moves, which overwhelms Heatran and Lando-T very quickly.

Core 5 - Mega Gardevoir basically force the team to sac a mon each time it comes in. It also doesn't really worry too much about Pokemon with boosted Speed since Hyper Voice bypasses Substitute. If fsr they manage to boost Spe, Talonflame is still there to patch things up.
 
Core 6 - Team lacks means of dealing with strong priority users like Talonflame and Pinsir. These two on the same team will really make everything hard for the team.

Core 5
- Mega Gardevoir punches holes in the team for Talonflame to clean up later on.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Core 5
Core 6

Both of these cores provide excellent ways of handling Scolipede from the start, which is the best way to stop this kind of team. Between flying-type priority (both cores, but especially core 6), Garde tracing Speed boost (core 5), and Hyper Voice going through subs (core 5), Scolipede won't be able to effectively pass boosts to its teammates, which prevents the abusers from being that hard to deal with.
 
Core 5 - Sound can bypass sub and the fairy resist is heatran which can catch a focus miss. Trace helps abuse mega gardevoir

Core 6 - Priority takes chunks out of this team.
 
5
6

i don't really have much to add because Aragorn the King did a great job covering it: both cores do an excellent job of handling scolipede early on thanks to talonflame, and core 6 applies double the pressure in this regard with mega pinsir doing the same thing (priority flying attacks). mega gardevoir is a more flexible option than pinsir because those birdspam builds tend to be sorta linear imo, and it can break through sub with hyper voice.

talonflame is definitely the main thing here, so it comes down to which partner you'd prefer: one that applies even more pressure in the same regard as talonflame (mega pinsir) or one that typically makes for a more solid build overall while still applying some pressure... just in a different way (mega gardevoir).
 
New team will be up in next 6 hours or so. Last chance to vote on the winner

Core 2 - Heracross is really an underrated threat vs this team as it can set up on scolipede and whack whatever comes in. Jirachi helps by luring in the teams bugs and bringing your own hera via U-turn to wreck havoc

Core 6 - Prioty absolutely smashs this team to shreds even with the protection of Sub. Once Lando is gone These 2 simply have a field day with whatever is left
 

Sobi

Banned deucer.
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the winner for this weakness is daddy's kisses and their birdspam core; congrats to them! =]

week 32


this is a team build by FlamingVictini, which he built in the teambuilding workshop. we decided to choose it because we haven't featured a rain team before, and so we decided to post one this week.


description

Oldie but a goodie. I used this to qualify for OLT while rain was really good in the meta at the time, and I still think this squad is pretty solid. The keystone to the team is MZor; it checks a shittton of offensive attackers that are threatening, especially ones that are threatening to rain, like MZam or Lop. It also lures in Fire-Types and Bulky grounds, which is pretty much perfect to get in your kindra or kabu and start tearing teams to shreds. My current spread is to outrun slower rotoms to get off u-turn chip, with bulk to better handle gard and lop, and the atk to ohko most av torns after rocks with +2, which is critical to scizor's function as an endgame sweeper. Feel free to make scizor slower and bulkier; 359 defense avoids the 2hko from lop, and 124 sdef evs avoids the 2hko from zam focus blast (i doubt you'll get enough free evs to invest in sdef though). The rest of the team is incredibly straightforward. If you face an electric type like manec, some good predicts can allow you to get up rocks and ~5 turns of rain with kingdra in while only losing chomp; just keep a lot of pressure up on their team and the elec won't have time to defeat you. If you face thundurus, have one rain sweeper remove it for the other. Hf and let me know how it goes :D

importable
Atlantis (Politoed) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 12 SpD / 112 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Hypnosis
- Encore
- Rest

High Tide (Kingdra) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Ice Beam

Atonement (Tornadus-Therian) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Taunt

Guardians (Scizor-Mega) @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 68 Def / 76 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Break Loose (Kabutops) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Rapid Spin

Restless (Garchomp) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Swords Dance
note

I've been speaking to the other co-hosts about this and we agreed that people tend to post the team's weaknesses during the discussion phase, which is great and all, but that is what the posting phase is for. we feel that the lack of cores sometimes during the posting phase is due to someone / people talking about all the team's weaknesses in the discussion phase, leaving them unable to post anything because it's already been said, or post some really niche / unorthodox core. that is why i'd like to make clear that during the discussion phase, talk more about the team's good qualities, what its aim is, any changes you suggest, how viable the team / team's playstyle might be in the current meta and less about its weaknesses, just so that people can actually post something during the posting phase. thanks & if you have any questions, feel free to ask!

you may now discuss the team
 
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I know you said no talking about the teams weakness but ive got to point it out third team in a row with out a keldeo check/counter since it LO torn not AV , but I wont take more about weakness
Also id like to say I like the 100 speed on M-scizor allowing it to out speed rotom-w and suicune and mega vena .Although I'm am not sure about the Surf on Kindra like is the 10 extra base power better than 30% burn also the hypnosis on politoad I guess is like a last resort thing as in you would only risk it if necessary .I also thing the team is to reliant on rain for only having one weather setter. But im terrible at using weather so yea... that might be wrong.

Also id like to say you say suggest changes but thats kind off hard to do when to justifie changes you often have to point out weakness which is something you say not to do :(( .Although it is understandable it just means you cant suggest any major chances with justification and you can only point out small changes like move set changes.

also this my be a silly thing to ask for but next week can we get a team that has a keldeo switch in? xD
 
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Also id like to say you say suggest changes but thats kind off hard to do when to justifie changes you often have to point out weakness which is something you say not to do :(( .Although it is understandable it just means you cant suggest any major chances with justification and you can only point out small changes like move set changes.
Pointing out weaknesses to the team is perfectly fine. What we would like to avoid is when the whole discussion becomes pointing out the team's flaws, which actually make the nomination stage redundant. Therefore, it is perfectly fine to talk about weakness, how to improve the team and other points about the team which was missed.

EDIT: Greninja-ed by Sobi but you get the point.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
I think talking about improvements is a bit redundant for breaking a team. For example this team is really old, was largely effective during a whole different era of ORAS OU, and for awhile now rain has become a particularly niche style of play that is pre-dominantly based on match-up. When most people think of rain they'll think of this team and other variations with Omastar but most people I've spoke with barring a few hardcore rain guys thinks the archetype as a whole is ineffective / sucks. It also gets bogged down with suggestions of improvement that might not actually be improvements, which I see a good amount in OU Bazaar making big changes that doesn't really fix underlying issues.

What I think discussion should be focused on is what the team does right in terms of team-building. kek123 I think you really overrate Keldeo a bit and this isn't the first time I've seen you kind of just say "no Keldeo switch ins so therefore it's destroyed by it". By this logic every single team is Keldeo weak because a different variation can cater to different checks and counters and render some traditional checks useless, let's include Scald burn to. I strongly doubt when FV was using this team in his OLT ladder runs he was just demolished by Keldeo. Keldeo also requiring to be the check to about half this team with its typing so that teams aren't steamrolled by a combination of Scizor and Kabutops is also something that wears down Keldeo a lot. If you overthink about every single check and counter nuance on paper you will eventually make something largely not practical. Rain is supposed to be used in an aggressive manner in order to slow down weaknesses and I don't see how that's any different with Keldeo. On a more positive note about the Keldeo point you can acknowledge Keldeo and something else as something that hurts the team. I just find it somewhat asinine that there's so much emphasis on one mon that exaggerates its actual match-up against the team and I felt it was important to point out so you can think things through instead of assuming things (which will help out with your rates in RMT btw!!!!). End gentle rant.

To Hosts,

Lack of cores is natural because the last reiterations of posting phase only required people to theorymon cores out of their ass and lazily contribute without any real understanding. I personally think the discussion phases are for the most part better and I look forward to those more although the quality of cores and logic have improved ever since the transition. It also prevents people from doing the "Manectric + insert mon" meme this thread was known for since it points out stuff that actually isn't gonna work but a theorymonner would think work. Pointing out weaknesses is going to be natural when a thread is called "Break This Team" anyways. Just something to consider going forward.
 

Infernal

Banned deucer.
On paper, this team appears weak to threats like Thund-I and Mega Manec. In practice, the team will have to be played aggressively to give them and other offensive threats as few chances as possible to pressure you. This seems to be done by abusing your rain sweepers, Kingdra and Kabutops, to apply your own offensive pressure before the other player has time to react. Some clever pivoting and sacs may be needed to do this properly, but that's the nature of such a highly offensive build. Laying down SR is also key to minimize the danger threats like Thund-I pose here, and Chomp performs this role decently. Keeping tempo on your side is vital when using this team, and members like Mega Sciz contribute to the flow of the build by bringing in the appropriate breakers in via U-turn. Mega Sciz also does a good job cleaning up the scraps after Kingdra and Kabutops punch holes. Torn-T is a good pick to provide speed outside of rain, a check to Grass types like Mega Venu, and a tool versus defensive builds. The team has a really offensive feel overall and its success hinges on how well someone can keep rain in play and abuse the team's offensive backbone to kill or avoid being killed.

Compared to other rain teams I've seen, this one definitely has some interesting member selections. For example, I normally see rain builds use balanced staples like Ferro as their steel to provide SR and handle threats like Manaphy, Gastro, and so on. This team takes a more offensive approach by using Mega Sciz as the steel, who isn't as much of a momentum sink and still contributes defensively by checking threats like Mega Lop and Mega Zam. Mega Swamp is another Pokemon I often see on rain builds to abuse Poli's weather and help with Thund-I and Mega Manec more. This team uses Chomp as the Ground type instead, which naturally makes the team more vulnerable to the Electric types mentioned earlier. Chomp is also the Pokemon this team uses for SR, whereas other rain variants often use Ferro for the role. Chomp is also the Dragon type of the team, whereas Pokemon like Latias often occupy this position to 1. check threats like Keld, Char-Y, and Electric types, 2. Defog, and 3. provide Heal Wish to give your rain abusers a second chance. How does this all influence the weaknesses of this team and how it's played?

Here is a rain team from a 2016 World Cup match. The team in the replay takes a much more balanced approach than the one we're discussing this week, and fits the description I talked about above. I think the team in the replay is an okay representation of modern day rain, with Kingdra usually being a more standard choice over Volcanion in this case (who interestingly didn't exist before the creation of FV's rain). When looking for weaknesses FV's rain has, I think it's important to look at how the team plays in practice. The team plays very offensively and this has to be taken into consideration before stating a weakness. I also think it's worth looking at whether any weaknesses are influenced by the choices this team made in terms of members. For example, are there any consequences to using Mega Scizor over Ferro as the steel like many other rain builds do? Do any notable weaknesses pop up because the team forgoes using common rain members like Latias and Mega Swamp?
 
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I'm back from my insanely busy period and I just want to clear a few things up. The transition has been a success and I want to thank everyone for it. Quality is up and things are really good post wise. a few things have been lost in translation. Here's a bullet points relating to discussion
  • As long as it's decent quality and relates to breaking the team you can post.
  • You can discuss and should the weakness's. It is break this team ROFL.
  • But we do want to hear more about the teams strenths and what it does well
  • You have the option to discuss improvements but now as AM has pointed out the OU bazaar exists for that.
  • If you have doubts about something PM me or a co-host.


The last thing about the lack of cores was an over-reaction on our part. While there is less the quality is better and we all know quality over quantity.

Anyway that cleared up hopefully let's focus on the team. The keldeo weakness has been pointed out but it needs to switch in first to actually do dmg. Keldeo lacking recovery is not the most reliable rain check especially vs this one plays very aggressive. Personally I'd be more worried about duel status core like rotom + Clef taking away rains strenth or something like klefki playing t-wace/ spike mind games. I'm on my Mobile so I Can't post more but I'll be around later :-)
 
I played two test matches vs. this team trying to c-team it and lost both... Granted, the person I was playing with plays for wcop but I really underestimated how effectively this team coordinates offensive pressure around the pivots of Scizor and 'Toed.

Game one I used Boudouche's Lop offense that's featured in the sample teams thread, intending to test out the effectiveness of Thundurus + Bisharp as a counter-core. The team's Bisharp answer is a superpower-less Scizor and praying for 50/50s with a-jet Kabutops, and has zero decent answers to Thundy, so I assumed it would perform well. I think the weakness to electrics is pretty key in figuring out how to crack this team's offensive presence, as Toad and Sciz can both be taken advantage of by Manectric/Thundurus relatively easily, meaning that getting your key openings should theoretically be an easy task; however, electrics fail to do anything once rain is up and a swift swimmer is directly in front of them.

Game two I changed my counter-core from Thundy and Bish to Thundy and Breloom, which is formulaically similar to the previous core (electric to take advantage of pivots + strong priority to counter high speed). This time, my high-power priority user had an actual means of entry via sacking into Politoed, meaning setting up or weakening the sole roadblock of LO Torn wasn't as big of a concern. Unfortunately, I allowed my countermeasures to fat Scizor get weakened and played poorly around it and was basically 6-0'd by Sciz, lol. I'm still convinced a formula of electric + strong priority will be the key to breaking the team ultimately (not sure why I'm giving away tips for competitors, but I'm a nice guy...?), as the team realistically has no electric check (other than sheer offensive force) and no priority sponge. Azumarill also does well vs. this team from my experience, although it can be played around pretty decently given that roost Sciz is on the team.

All in all, not sure why I posted this. But hey, if it contributes to discussion or something I guess it's worth it.
 
daddy's kisses do you have replays I would love to see them.

Anyway as I stated earlier keldeo is not the most reliable of answers to this rain team or rain in general due to lack of recovery. It plays very aggressivly and if Keldeo is using a choice item it'll be exploited to the end of days. This Team due to the combination swift swim and mega zor is able to beat many of its offensive checks that would usually hurt rain with ease. While its not impossible to beat offensivly this team was designed for the more offensive nature of the hoopa U meta and as such is naturally expected to be able to plow through many offensive teams. Anybody relying solely on manetric, Keldeo or Weavile to carry them is going to lose more often then not and even stuff like Fake-out/Sub Lopunny or Breloom are going to be insanly pressured and need really good prediction to do damage. Scizor Also hurts many normal rain answer's and thanks to rain taking away many of its usual switch ins or lures finds many oppurtunities to set up and can quickly put games beyond reach if played well.

That said its not impossible to break the team offensivly. Stuff Like Thundorous, Klefki and Bold Clefable with thunder wave prove to be nightmares as literally nothing on this team wants to take thunder wave and Garchomp doesn't exactly enjoy swtiching into those. In addition Should you keep Mega Lopunny, Talonflame or Breloom healthy for long enough this teams lack of recovery can make for easy exploitation but that requires Good Planning. Zard Y to despite this team being a rain team can still swtich into Zor and Blow something up most times but like the others requires good planning.

Personally if you want to beat this team reliably your gonna need bulky stuff that has recovery or can easily chip away at the opponent without fear of Swift Swim. Rocky Helm Users like Ferro and Chomp wear scizor down and prevent kabutops just spamming aqua jet and while not a reliable core crruently is viable and can pave the way for more offenive pokemon to sweep. Mega Slowbro tho rare on paper anyway absolutely monsters this team if scizor goes down, Spam with CM manaphy and Suicune who love rain. T-wave users such as clef, Lati, Celebi, Thundo and Klefki As already mentioned Trouble this team massivly. Reflect Type mega Latias with fairy support which is rather common right now (And one of the reasons rain has diminished in usage) Walls this teams once its in. The Only real answer this team has is to double out into Kingdra or Chomp but that goes both ways. Tangrowth can be troublesome but needs Kingdra taken care of and Status Spamming mons like Sableye and Rotom also present trouble.

Overall This team flourish's in more offensive metas but as the game has gotten bulkier and more status based (Clefable is everywear) has come into trouble. That said if well piloted its still solid so I'll sum up below

Team strenghs
  • Beats many opposing offensive teams and Swift swim nulls most offensives electrics. In offensive metas this team thrives
  • Can Outpriotise most mons under rain
  • Capable of ending games early with Mega Zor
  • Not threatened by pursuit or other trapping moves

Weakness's
  • Anything with T-wave massivly hurts
  • Reliance on rain and lack of Recovery leave it open to Prioty users and Fake out Lopunny late game
  • Bulky Calm minders and status users that dont mind rain. Clef to when Zor is dead
  • Opposing Weather Teams Make life hard for swift swimmers
 
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