Jimera0 you didn't take into consideration my Wobbufett nomination. Anyway Wobbufett can easily trap slowloy walls, proceed to Encore and do one of two things. First it can Tickle them to -6 and then have a good pursuit trapper to come in and finish the job. The second thing it can do is Encore then facilitate the setup of a sweeper, namely one with lots of power and is hard to stop like SD Haxorus or SD Terrakion.
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Breaking Down the Walls Project [Read post #129]
- Thread starter Jimera0
- Start date
I'll add in the nomination but I'd like to point out one big thing that's wrong with Wobbuffet being tier 1:
Support. In the criteria it says "with little or no team support". The problem is Wobbuffet can't do ANYTHING to defensive Pokemon (none of them will be stupid enough to attack him directly) by himself. He NEEDS his teammates to take advantage of it. He is completely incapable of doing anything to them himself. Additionally, he needs rather specific support, as most Pokemon can't take advantage enough of a tickeled or encored defensive Pokemon well enough to beat a stall team. Unless you're using something like Terrakion or Haxorus, you won't be able to take advantage of it. And pursuit wouldn't fit the number needed for tier 1, since anything that resists pursuit will survive even at -6, which means a LOT of defensive Pokemon will be living.
It might be tier 2 certainly (tier 2 is where heavy team support comes into the equation), but it is not tier 1, since it NEEDS its teammates to stallbreak. That's my view anyway. Added to the nomination list btw, I just missed it before since it was such a tiny little sentence at the end of your post :S.
Just pointing out that Reuniclus currently struggles against most of the half decent stall teams out there. Heck, go look at the top Stall teams of the metagame and off the top of my head id say all of them deal with Rank just fine. I have no idea if its because its considered one of the most dangerous threats or whatever. Rain Teams have access to Jirachi and Perish Song Politied (and some run Quagsire) while other stall teams have something like Tyranitar, and Taunting Jellicent and so on. Technically, it IS a stall breaker, so it fits the definition however, I think the point has to be made that Reuniclus struggles against most half decent stall teams, simply because on paper its such a threatening pokemon. Just make of that what you will.
Just a note on Gliscor, while bulky waters are annoying, a set of Taunt/Substitute/Earthquake/Toxic can be threatening to most pokemon on a stall team. I know its seen a lot of use in Ubers, and I have seen the set work in OU as well so I consider Gliscor a top tier stallbreaker
Alright, it's been long enough and there's been at least a bit of discussion so hopefully we'll all be able to make educated votes now. As such...
Voting for Tier 1 Stallbreakers is now OPEN!
Remember, you're voting based on this criteria:
Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support. It must not be beaten by more than one or two common defensive Pokemon, and must be able to continue to beat walls throughout the entire match. It must be able to do this within one moveset.
To vote, copy the nominees list and post, in bold, your vote, which should be "yes" "no" or "Abstain". Yes is for inclusion into the tier, No is against inclusion into the tier. Provide reasoning for your votes.
Here's the list of nominees we'll be voting on!
Nominees:
Sableye
Jellicent
Reuniclus
Mew
Gliscor
Sigilyph
Breloom
Deoxys-D
Whimsicott
Espeon
Xatu
Mandibuzz
Wobbuffet
Jirachi
I'll be making my own votes in a little while, after I've seen some more people's reasoning for their votes and such. You guys don't have to wait for me though; start voting!
Voting for Tier 1 Stallbreakers is now OPEN!
Remember, you're voting based on this criteria:
Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support. It must not be beaten by more than one or two common defensive Pokemon, and must be able to continue to beat walls throughout the entire match. It must be able to do this within one moveset.
To vote, copy the nominees list and post, in bold, your vote, which should be "yes" "no" or "Abstain". Yes is for inclusion into the tier, No is against inclusion into the tier. Provide reasoning for your votes.
Here's the list of nominees we'll be voting on!
Nominees:
Sableye
Jellicent
Reuniclus
Mew
Gliscor
Sigilyph
Breloom
Deoxys-D
Whimsicott
Espeon
Xatu
Mandibuzz
Wobbuffet
Jirachi
I'll be making my own votes in a little while, after I've seen some more people's reasoning for their votes and such. You guys don't have to wait for me though; start voting!
Apparently everyone just up and forgot about this, so I'm going to have to bump it up.
Again, I really don't want to make my votes until I see some other people's opinions on this. However, if I must get the ball rolling myself, I will.
Sableye: Yes Sure it has trouble with a few Pokemon, but so do all the Pokemon on this list. For the most part, stall is wrecked by the little ghost, and I know from experience it can full counter entire stall teams. Definitely tier 1.
Jellicent: No It's just too slow to function completely as a stallbreaker. Unless you're going to run some crazy fast spread, it simply won't be able to beat faster defensive Pokemon, as they'll recover or toxic Jellicent while it attempts to taunt them again. And there are just too many faster defensive Pokemon to fit Jellicent into Teir 1.
Reuniclus Yes Sure it gets phazed, but eventually when it comes down to last Pokemon, it will demolish them all. Oh sure, Perish song puts a dampner on it, but like, how many Pokemon get that in OU? Two? That's not enough to devalue Reuniclus on its own.
Mew: Yes Unlike Jellicent, it IS fast enough with its base 100 speed, and it has better stats overall to boot. Sure its typing means it can't wall as well, but we're talking breaking walls here, not being them.
Gliscor: No It would if it weren't for the existence of rain stall, which shits all over Gliscor like nothing else. Rain boosted Scalds are just too much for the bat to handle. It comes close but when an entire branch of stall kills you, you just don't make the cut for Teir 1.
Sigilyph: Yes Same boat as reuniclus, only with the added threat of dark types. With only one dark type in OU that could be considered a wall though (Tyranitar), it's not enough to hold Sigilyph back.
Breloom: Abstain I really want to hear some opinions of others on this one first.
Deoxys-D Yes Should you chose to use a stallbreaking set, I doubt there'd be anything more effective out there at doing it. It's just that people usually can't pass up its ability to set up screens and hazards.
Whimsicott No Tried it recently and was greatly underwhelmed. Too many grass types to screw it up, Leech seed is too easily avoidable, and it just doesn't have the stats or typing to pull it off.
Espeon No Morning Sun's low PP is what settles it. It might be able to deal with one wall fairly easily, but Espeon will just get worn down too quickly to stick around the whole match. Most special walls can beat it too by simply attacking it, and if inclement weather is up, it's definitely not going to last long.
Xatu Yes Ironically, while its OU sibling Espeon doesn't make the cut, Xatu does. Xatu's more reliable recovery in Roost seals the deal, allowing it to beat pretty much any wall given enough time and it actually has the ability to do it more than once. Just don't expect it to fare quite as well against offensive mons.
Mandibuzz Abstain I just don't know enough about the bulky bird to call it.
Wobbuffet No One of the key factors in being Tier 1 is the ability to stallbreak without support. The problem is of course that Wobbuffet requires a LOT of support to break down walls. It can't usually do it more than once per a match either, due to its lack of recovery. Unless you support it of course, but that brings back the first problem.
Jirachi Abstain Too on the fence. The fact it's vulnerable to phazing and spikes works against it, but immunity to toxic, healing and Calm Mind all work for it. I'm not convinced its as effective a last mon as Reuniclus is, but it could fit the bill. It's trouble with Heatran, Hippowodon, and Gliscor work strongly against it though.
Again, I really don't want to make my votes until I see some other people's opinions on this. However, if I must get the ball rolling myself, I will.
Sableye: Yes Sure it has trouble with a few Pokemon, but so do all the Pokemon on this list. For the most part, stall is wrecked by the little ghost, and I know from experience it can full counter entire stall teams. Definitely tier 1.
Jellicent: No It's just too slow to function completely as a stallbreaker. Unless you're going to run some crazy fast spread, it simply won't be able to beat faster defensive Pokemon, as they'll recover or toxic Jellicent while it attempts to taunt them again. And there are just too many faster defensive Pokemon to fit Jellicent into Teir 1.
Reuniclus Yes Sure it gets phazed, but eventually when it comes down to last Pokemon, it will demolish them all. Oh sure, Perish song puts a dampner on it, but like, how many Pokemon get that in OU? Two? That's not enough to devalue Reuniclus on its own.
Mew: Yes Unlike Jellicent, it IS fast enough with its base 100 speed, and it has better stats overall to boot. Sure its typing means it can't wall as well, but we're talking breaking walls here, not being them.
Gliscor: No It would if it weren't for the existence of rain stall, which shits all over Gliscor like nothing else. Rain boosted Scalds are just too much for the bat to handle. It comes close but when an entire branch of stall kills you, you just don't make the cut for Teir 1.
Sigilyph: Yes Same boat as reuniclus, only with the added threat of dark types. With only one dark type in OU that could be considered a wall though (Tyranitar), it's not enough to hold Sigilyph back.
Breloom: Abstain I really want to hear some opinions of others on this one first.
Deoxys-D Yes Should you chose to use a stallbreaking set, I doubt there'd be anything more effective out there at doing it. It's just that people usually can't pass up its ability to set up screens and hazards.
Whimsicott No Tried it recently and was greatly underwhelmed. Too many grass types to screw it up, Leech seed is too easily avoidable, and it just doesn't have the stats or typing to pull it off.
Espeon No Morning Sun's low PP is what settles it. It might be able to deal with one wall fairly easily, but Espeon will just get worn down too quickly to stick around the whole match. Most special walls can beat it too by simply attacking it, and if inclement weather is up, it's definitely not going to last long.
Xatu Yes Ironically, while its OU sibling Espeon doesn't make the cut, Xatu does. Xatu's more reliable recovery in Roost seals the deal, allowing it to beat pretty much any wall given enough time and it actually has the ability to do it more than once. Just don't expect it to fare quite as well against offensive mons.
Mandibuzz Abstain I just don't know enough about the bulky bird to call it.
Wobbuffet No One of the key factors in being Tier 1 is the ability to stallbreak without support. The problem is of course that Wobbuffet requires a LOT of support to break down walls. It can't usually do it more than once per a match either, due to its lack of recovery. Unless you support it of course, but that brings back the first problem.
Jirachi Abstain Too on the fence. The fact it's vulnerable to phazing and spikes works against it, but immunity to toxic, healing and Calm Mind all work for it. I'm not convinced its as effective a last mon as Reuniclus is, but it could fit the bill. It's trouble with Heatran, Hippowodon, and Gliscor work strongly against it though.
Sorry if grammar is funky; I'm on an iphone
Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support. It must not be beaten by more than one or two common defensive Pokemon, and must be able to continue to beat walls throughout the entire match. It must be able to do this within one moveset
Sableye-yes- this guy is just a little demon. To me this is what I think of when someone says stall Breakers. He fits well on any team needing a reliable anti setup mon.
Jellicent-no- too slow in my opinion to have a team slot as a stallbreaker.
Reuniclus-yes- stallbreaking is what he does. He also has bulk enough to not need to recover every other turn
Mew-yes- I assume every mew set I face to be a stallbreaker set because of how effective it is. Surprising amount of bulk with good speed gets my vote
Gliscor-no- unless your using a sand stall, gliscor doesn't cut it for me. Being weak to the often used scald is a negatory.
Sigilyph-abstain- never used this but it looks interesting. I've actually never faced this set while I was using a stall team
Breloom-no- one of the best and most underrated stallbreakers. Uncommonly used, it allows you to surprise your opponent. But I vote no. Breloom requires team support to be a good stallbreaker, no matter how effective it is
Deoxys-D-yes- I use this poke on not only my ho team for hazards, but I also use it on my balanced for breaking down stall. My god does this thing just stay on the field. The only poke I'm walled by is heatran usually. Otherwise this thing runs train.
Whimsicott-no- never seen this used as a stall-breakeruch, but all it does is annoy me. I've never had any trouble with it whether I'm using stall or not.
Espeon-no- by itself, espeon is just bad. Really it is. But when used with a combo such as gastrodon, it excels. Since this requires support, it's a no.
Xatu-abstain- I can't even recall the last time ive seen a xatu
Mandibuzz-abstain- heard its a good physical wall. But I don't see it much so I can't make a fair vote
Wobbuffet-I'll just copy the req for tier 1:Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support.
Jirachi-no- this is very interesting. I've barely seen it been used to break stall. But just from theorymonning, no. I think it would really need 5 moves to be effective. Using it like a calm mind reuniclus could work. But I think hazards would be a thorn in its side since it has to use wish
Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support. It must not be beaten by more than one or two common defensive Pokemon, and must be able to continue to beat walls throughout the entire match. It must be able to do this within one moveset
Sableye-yes- this guy is just a little demon. To me this is what I think of when someone says stall Breakers. He fits well on any team needing a reliable anti setup mon.
Jellicent-no- too slow in my opinion to have a team slot as a stallbreaker.
Reuniclus-yes- stallbreaking is what he does. He also has bulk enough to not need to recover every other turn
Mew-yes- I assume every mew set I face to be a stallbreaker set because of how effective it is. Surprising amount of bulk with good speed gets my vote
Gliscor-no- unless your using a sand stall, gliscor doesn't cut it for me. Being weak to the often used scald is a negatory.
Sigilyph-abstain- never used this but it looks interesting. I've actually never faced this set while I was using a stall team
Breloom-no- one of the best and most underrated stallbreakers. Uncommonly used, it allows you to surprise your opponent. But I vote no. Breloom requires team support to be a good stallbreaker, no matter how effective it is
Deoxys-D-yes- I use this poke on not only my ho team for hazards, but I also use it on my balanced for breaking down stall. My god does this thing just stay on the field. The only poke I'm walled by is heatran usually. Otherwise this thing runs train.
Whimsicott-no- never seen this used as a stall-breakeruch, but all it does is annoy me. I've never had any trouble with it whether I'm using stall or not.
Espeon-no- by itself, espeon is just bad. Really it is. But when used with a combo such as gastrodon, it excels. Since this requires support, it's a no.
Xatu-abstain- I can't even recall the last time ive seen a xatu
Mandibuzz-abstain- heard its a good physical wall. But I don't see it much so I can't make a fair vote
Wobbuffet-I'll just copy the req for tier 1:Tier 1 Stallbreaker:A Pokemon that can consistently win the war of attrition against defensive Pokemon, with little or no team support.
Jirachi-no- this is very interesting. I've barely seen it been used to break stall. But just from theorymonning, no. I think it would really need 5 moves to be effective. Using it like a calm mind reuniclus could work. But I think hazards would be a thorn in its side since it has to use wish