Other Bulky Offense-- the King of XY(?)

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I agree with everything shurtugal said. HO has a lot of options like deoxys formes, genesect, the genies, op megas, powerful priority, shortened weather etc. Even though bulky offense can pull them off too, HO just does it better imo.

Sticky web isnt even a huge deal since ho can use excadrill and latios very effectively to remove them. Not only that but the setters are pretty terrible and don't even fit into the bulky offense style.
 
So I've been using a bulky Latias on showdown with moderate success, just looking for some opinions.

Latias@Weakness Policy
Modest
252HP/252SpA/4SpD
-Dragon Pulse
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Recover

I don't think the spread is optimal, but I guess it's a start
 
So reading thro, I think my team might be some what BO?It consist of Ferrathorn (with pazalyze, SR, PowerWhip, Sub lol), Gliscor (Knock off, Toxic, Protect, Subsitute ) MegaGengar (Before Gengarnite got banned) Talonflame, Starmie, Lucario (A wierd set I made BP, CC, Sub, Crunch).
The builds are pretty standerd (the sets are not so much lol). Now, Iunderstand Gengar is a glasscannon, but im counting him as Defencive because of his resistences and immunity (I know still frail maybe I should have said Aegislash? )
But from what I understand this is sorta Bulky offensive.

(Team has a few holes ik)
But I've seen bulky offensive in Pre pokemon on showdown (prebank? Or was it pokebank?) And they usally wreck HO teams.


Sorry if this belonged in questions.
 

Chou Toshio

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I didn't delete your earlier post because I thought it was perfectly fine, so I'm not sure why you lost confidence in it and deleted it in favor of this question post. In either case, the lines between Bulky offense, Hyper offense, and balanced offense have never been more blurred.

What were once "tanky" Pokemon are now both 2HKO'ing the meta, AND getting 2HKO'd by the meta. Bulky, frail, everyone kills and gets killed almost equally easily. BO teams that can rely just on tanking and retaliation are gone. So don't worry about your "inexperience" because even for seasoned players it's become near impossible to distinguish one from the other.

As an example, everyone says "Greninja is frail as paste", but actually Greninja has better defensive stats than Starmie (a traditional staple of bulky offensive teams), and even has a Speed stat that could let you invest in even MORE bulk and get the same Speed or better than Starmie if you wanted.

This is a prime example of how the identity of "bulky offense" is completely blurred.

Obviously, "It's bulky offense because all the Pokemon I'm using would be extremely tanky if they were used in BW or DPP" is ridiculous reasoning. What makes it bulky offense is how the team plays, and frankly bulky or no, every offensive team essentially plays like Hyper Offense. Distinguishable "types" of offensive teams don't really exist in XY, not yet at least.
 
I think the above post is spot on. Even the line between offense and stall is blurred because most stall team matches ends up just being a match where, after hazards and early game scouting, my pokemon survive 2 hits and 2hko's whatever they have (pokemon like Hippowdon and Ferrothorn hit hard when they use STAB for example). And I don't know what to classify your team as when you have Blissey/Skarmory/Celebi but you also have Kangaskhan and Talonflame. I suppose in the strictest sense of the word, stall must mean your game plan is outlast everything and PP stall their last pokemon, which some matches do come down to, but usually it's just trading 2hkos and revenge killing. Survive one hit and finish off their pokemon.
 

Chou Toshio

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In the traditional sense, Blissey / Skarm / Celebi + Kang / Talon would be semi-stall-- now it's kind of confused.

I guess if the 6th poke was another wall, it'd probably be closer to "Stall" (at least XY Stall...) where as if it was another sweeper it would be "semi-stall." If the 6th Poke was a Tank (a BO kind of mon), then we'd be even more confused...

Traditional stall, as it would have been defined in DPP or ADV is essentially extinct. BW styles of stall are also extinct since weather is gone. The things people call "Stall" teams now would never have been called stall in older gens. As you say, the lines are totally blurred.

As I predicted in the OP, XY has drastically removed "diversity" from the metagame. I didn't expect this degree though-- where we'd go from BW, the most diverse meta ever, to one where we essentially have far less diversity of play style than DPP.

(note, the community no longer believes diversity = good, so XY being non-diverse is not a commentary on it being a good or bad gen)
 
^although I do agree with a lot of your points, imo it's too early to judge the meta, since we haven't gotten the pokebank yet, who knows what the pokebank will bring to old and new mons. Also, bans have not yet solidified. People are still learning what sets can be viable and what can be gimmick.
 
Chou, why on earth do you think BW was the most diverse meta ever? For a long time, a large portion of the ladder was essentially endless variants of Rain teams and I personally felt that DPP provided a much more varied mix of play styles/viable creative sets.
 

Chou Toshio

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Chou, why on earth do you think BW was the most diverse meta ever? For a long time, a large portion of the ladder was essentially endless variants of Rain teams and I personally felt that DPP provided a much more varied mix of play styles/viable creative sets.
You just answered yourself, shooting yourself in the foot using the word "variant" (as in various, or variety) in an argument that there is none. Every VARIANT of rain means more variety-- Ferrothorn hazard rain hyper offense, Tornado spamming offense, Rotom-focused volt turn rain offense, rain STALL (a highly popular team that's dead and gone now obviously), Set up heavy offensive rain with Dragonite and Toxicroak, etc. etc.

Also you and I both know that rain was king at the upper middle of the ladder, not at the top of it. Sand, Sun, and Deoxys (while it was around) also gave rise to as many different varients-- offensive and defensive-- of their own playstyles.

A great many Pokemon we banned also were central to styles that would exist in a metagame that wasn't artificially altered by us. It's easy to argue that the variety of a generation should be judged by what's actually in the cartridge, not by the shape of our own meta-- after all, judging the "variety" of a generation is a critique of GF, not of Smogon. So while BW OU (even as we shaped it) already had a great diversity of play styles, there were also a great many that also would exist where Excadrill, Landorus-I, Sand Veil Chomp, Swift Swim Kingdra + Toad, Tornadus, etc. etc. also exist.

3 different weathers fighting it out in OU, each giving rise to their own variations of offensive strategies and defensive strategies, the longest list of OU Pokemon ever, and a great number of UU, RU, and NU mons ranked C-B in OU viability (something that absolutely would not exist in DPP)--

No matter how you look at it-- # of team variants, # of team arch-types, # of OU Pokemon, # of Viable Pokemon, # of strategies developed over the gen, # of creative gimmicks invented in the tournament scene-- BW totally outclasses DPP and every other gen in terms of diversity. This isn't even worth debating because it's just plain fact.

When DPP was the major official meta, everyone constantly bitched that OU didn't have enough diversity. When BW was the major official meta, people began to bitch about how too much diversity (too many potential team match ups) was the source of not being competitive.

BW was definitely not the most balanced gen... but if we're talking about the creativity sparked by BW compared to DPP, especially looking at the play of top players in each gen-- the difference is obvious.


Edit: In any case, this discussion is about XY, and let's try to keep it that way.

Diversity does NOT necessarily mean better or worse-- it's totally separate from that.

However, XY's currently greatly decreased diversity compared to BW does not need to be explained. Even the most unbalanced first round of BW (with Darkrai, Shaymin-S and the rest) had a lot more diversity than what exists in XY now.
 
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Isn't Balanced Tank/stall X3(Or a mix of both) + Sweeper/Revenge killer (Mix)?
Other than that I think I can see what you mean. Something like Azumarill can be both HO and BO right? I think Aegislash would be another good example? Anyways, I don't think HO teams will be outclashed (or at least not to much) by BO and Balanced Offensive. Defog is good and all but the Pokemon that learn it in OU doesn't seem like it will do to much.For example Crobat, Skarmory can be takin out with an Electric attack (Noviern will die from ice) Empoleon dies from EQ (I believe and EQ is common) The LatiTwins die by Ice. I do realise that these are not the only pokemon that learnDefog but its just an example.
I think HO will need to carry a ice type and it should be fine.
 
I definitely disagree with the statement about stall being dead. While it is weak to more setup sweepers, which are very common in OU obviously, if you prevent yourself from being setup fodder, it's still a very viable playstyle, which is why I believe stallbreaker mew has potential for being BL or possibly OU if it catches on. The idea of bulky offense however might be arguably the best playstyle. In my mind, the three best pokemon in OU are Mega-TTar, PDef Rotom-W(My 5th gen set that I popularized is now the 2nd most used pokemon in the game) and obviously aegislash. We'll see how OU unfolds with possible future bans and if that affects current usage.
 
While it is weak to more setup sweepers, which are very common in OU obviously, if you prevent yourself from being setup fodder, it's still a very viable playstyle
Anything is a viable play style if you prevent the thing that threatens it…that's kind of an obvious statement. Stall now has to do more than even to work around its threats with new setup sweepers like Talonflame, Aegislash and MKang running around, all of which only need 1 free turn to potentially sweep your entire team. What buffs has stall received this gen to allow it to keep up with the threat of offensive teams?
 
Isn't Balanced Tank/stall X3(Or a mix of both) + Sweeper/Revenge killer (Mix)?
Other than that I think I can see what you mean. Something like Azumarill can be both HO and BO right? I think Aegislash would be another good example? Anyways, I don't think HO teams will be outclashed (or at least not to much) by BO and Balanced Offensive. Defog is good and all but the Pokemon that learn it in OU doesn't seem like it will do to much.For example Crobat, Skarmory can be takin out with an Electric attack (Noviern will die from ice) Empoleon dies from EQ (I believe and EQ is common) The LatiTwins die by Ice. I do realise that these are not the only pokemon that learnDefog but its just an example.
I think HO will need to carry a ice type and it should be fine.
You don't judge defogers and spinners by their weaknesses, you judge them by their ability to come in, take a hit and survive to use defog/rapid spin. Imo flying pokemon should not run Defog, so Empoleon, Lati twins, Skarm(cuz resistance) and Scizor are all perfectly viable users of Defog.
 
You don't judge defogers and spinners by their weaknesses, you judge them by their ability to come in, take a hit and survive to use defog/rapid spin. Imo flying pokemon should not run Defog, so Empoleon, Lati twins, Skarm(cuz resistance) and Scizor are all perfectly viable users of Defog.
Oh iknow. I'm just pointing out that ice deals with a majority of them.
And, I'm not sure if those are the BEST pokemon in OU that you mentioned in your previous post, but the are very good.
Anyways, I can't see defog change the usage of SR to much. Stall, may have been nerfed or atleast weather stalls, but they have also been buffed because as we all know Posion and Burn are now 1/8 hp per turn now.
Looking at the more viable defog users, it looks like Mamoswines usage will rise come Pokebank. We'll see tho. HO teams could run Mamoswine as support
 

Shroomisaur

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Wait what? Lol, I thought they went from 1/16 to 1/8 sorry. xD
I believe you're thinking of partial trapping moves like Infestation, which were buffed in that way.

However, XY's currently greatly decreased diversity compared to BW does not need to be explained. Even the most unbalanced first round of BW (with Darkrai, Shaymin-S and the rest) had a lot more diversity than what exists in XY now.
Well I think it's obvious why, when you're got monsters like Megakahn running around of course the metagame isn't going to be very diverse. It's going to be incredibly over-centralized around the big threats that have yet to get the boot. Gen VI is just especially bad because Mega-Evolutions are inherently unbalanced and centralizing compared to "regular" Pokemon.

I think a lot of it has to do with players' mindsets. The metagame isn't even 2 months old yet, and people are still clinging to the shiny new toys a bit and neglecting things like Rain that were nerfed. Weather is still effective, especially with Exca and Drizzle+Swift Swim back in OU, but no one seems to have built decent teams for those strategies yet.

At any rate, I agree that the meta is much more offensive than I thought it would be a month or two ago. Most Pokemon pack enough power to 2HKO even bulky opponents. Talonflame is the #1 offender in my mind, as it nullifies speed tiers and is so powerful that it can 2HKO most bulky sweepers and straight-up OHKO frail ones like Greninja. Priority flying everywhere makes the metagame very offense-oriented. Sometimes I wonder if Gamefreak realized what they were doing as they slowly buffed Priority moves (and their users) each generation.
 

Chou Toshio

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Honestly, even the trapping moves-- there's no real reason to associate the with stall. The whole point of Stall is easily making safe switches to cover threats. Trapping enemies with moves you have to STAY IN to get the passive damage is pointless. The trapping functions of those moves are actually much more useful to offensive teams that rely on trapping specific targets to open a sweep.

XY:
Bulky Offense: Fused with Hyper Offense
Hyper Offense: +1
Stall: -50
 
I don't think stall is dead. I'm sitting at around rank 21 on the pokebank ladder and got there using a stall team, then I have another alt around 2200 that I played purely with a different stall team. Literally the only losses I have on that second team are from Mega Kanga sweeping my face -- when that thing gets sent to ubers stall will be more than viable.

Anyway my bulky offense team does pretty well, but like HO teams last gen it's not very reliable. You get a bad match up, you lose. With stall this gen you can cover most of the relevant threats -- except for that damn mega Kang -- and still have a functioning team.
 

Chou Toshio

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effyouzion, if you don't mind me asking, can you give me an example of a working stall team? I've yet to see anything on the ladder that could be classified as stall that wasn't someone sitting lower than 1700
 
stall viability is destroyed by the likes of things like this:

252 Atk Adaptability jolly Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

XY brought a huge power/speed creep.
 
Anything is a viable play style if you prevent the thing that threatens it…that's kind of an obvious statement. Stall now has to do more than even to work around its threats with new setup sweepers like Talonflame, Aegislash and MKang running around, all of which only need 1 free turn to potentially sweep your entire team. What buffs has stall received this gen to allow it to keep up with the threat of offensive teams?
Really none. I agree entirely with what you said. But the play style itself still has carried over into being still a potent skeleton for a team. Hyper offense, it really cannot keep up with multiple setup sweepers, but standard.offense still will struggle against stall.
 
effyouzion, if you don't mind me asking, can you give me an example of a working stall team? I've yet to see anything on the ladder that could be classified as stall that wasn't someone sitting lower than 1700
I don't wanna give away my teams but make sure you have multiple checks to the stupid hard hitters like mega Lucario. Physically defensive Lando-T + mega Venusaur with earthquake is a good combo, and you. And don't be afraid to play aggressive. If you don't need Florges any more because the other guy's Rotom-W and dragons are down, you can be liberal with moonblast to try and deal as much damage as possible.

Also, Suicune is an amazing anchor for any stall team. If you can hit any Jellicents with toxic at some point, Suicune can almost singlehandedly win you games as long as the other guy's Rotom doesn't get some ridiculous number of volt switch crits on you while you're resting with 3x special defense. Aside from his sweeping abilities, he's also a good back up check for strong physical hits, altho +2 mega Luc still fucks him up.
 
stall viability is destroyed by the likes of things like this:

252 Atk Adaptability jolly Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

XY brought a huge power/speed creep.
You really need a physically defensive Lando-T for Lucario. Lando can't win 1v1 if Luc has ice punch, but eating a close combat and lowering his attack can give you room to switch to another poke like Skarmory to eat the ice punch, and then he's forced to switch out to something less threatening or else brave bird can potentially KO. It's a lot of mind games really, because that Luc could swords dance instead of CC, but that's what I love about it. You're playing your opponent more than his team.
 
effyouzion, if you don't mind me asking, can you give me an example of a working stall team? I've yet to see anything on the ladder that could be classified as stall that wasn't someone sitting lower than 1700
One example that immediately springs to mind is an RMT made by someone who I commonly converse with about our stall teams, Daunting Dreadnoughts . I also am working on laddering with a Rhyperior stall team, and will RMT that sometime. Stall right now is perfectly possible, and will be even more so once Mega Kangaskhan, pinsir, and the other broken mons are removed. Defog makes it so now, stall only runs SR, and has made Offensive Stall the most popular type.
What Offensive Stall is:
I'd like to clear the confusion of the difference between Offensive Stall and Bulky Offense. Offensive stall is a type of play that, first and foremost, endeavors to counter all the pokemon in the meta. That, in itself, differentiates it from Bulky Offense. Now the difference from that to regular stall is that the next priority is not to Spikes stack/Phaze, but rather deal straightfoward damage. Common examples of this include Rhyperior, Aegislash, Tangrowth, etc. Knock off is also common, as not only is it powerful, but has an amazing side effect.
Although there have not been any significant additions to stall besides Mega Venusaur, the nerf to Rain and Sun was huge for stall. It is still definitely viable.
 
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