Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

You're comparing three totally different Pokemon and then saying they all fill the same niche of "Physically attacking Grass-type" so they're all the same Pokemon and all the same rank. That's disingenuous at best, flat out wrong at worst.
Not quite, as I explained at the beginning of this threat why they are so different. I am not going to repeat the entire point I made there. They aren't the same, but yet they are always competing for a teamslot. Obviously, there are differences, and as such, sometimes the choice is very clear (if you need that Ground-coverage, you will use Sawsbuck, if you need a Grass-type that can deal a lot of damage to Psychic-types, Leavanny is your choice, and if you need Baton Pass capabilities, Leafeon is often the best option (still competes with Leavanny if you need a Fighting-resist)

Sawsbuck is currently in Mid-B because it has much better coverage than the other two (Nature Power is very significant), has the equivalent of Physical Giga Drain (but you aren't knocking special attacking Grass-types for using it), and then on top of that has a more powerful Double Edge than Kangaskhan, with the ability to recover some of that health later. If you want to argue that it should be Low-B because the metagame is now geared against it a bit, with Scolipede and Spikes and Tspikes everywhere, and the metagame being designed to outspeed its speed tier (as opposed to when the benchmark was 80-85): sure I could accept that. Arguing that it should be Low-C because it's vaguely similar to Leavanny and Leafeon? That's just plain silly.
While Nature Power is very significant and Sawsbuck has a very powerful Double Edge, it cannot OHKO Golurk with significant HP investment (248 HP and 8 Def prevent the OHKO even regardless) or 2HKO Alomomola with Horn Leech, which plain sucks. It requires Adamant to achieve these KO's... and suddenly it is slower than Leavanny or Leafeon who can go with Jolly to achieve these KO's.

Yes, its Double-Edge is very powerful, but we all know how quickly Double-Edge and Life Orb rack up damage, cutting badly in Sawsbuck's lifespan, and if we don't run Life Orb on Sawsbuck, well... then Leavanny hits harder, even when factoring in X-Scissor versus Double-Edge..

It also has many of the similar flaws as the other two, like being OHKO'd by Jynx, being frail as heck, outsped by Scolipede and Swellow, relatively bad typing, but also unique flaws (being Mach Punch weak, which I consider just as bad as Leavanny's SR weakness or Leafeon's lack of coverage).

Why I didn't complain about Giga Drain is simple - you don't miss out on annoying OHKO's and 2HKO's as far as I know, some have Leaf Storm to use alongside when they desire the raw power (like Exeggutor) and SolarBeam exists in the sun, and those who haven't can boost up quick and have the bulk to do so.

Leavanny is currently in E-rank because it's frail as all hell, Stealth Rock weak, and can't even tie with Base 95 speed mons, which means it loses outright to Jynx & co. It's weaker than Sawsbuck, and while 2hkoing Musharna is nice, Musharna will never switch in on a Bug-type to begin with, so you run the risk of getting crippled by Thunder Wave or 2hko'd by Mushy's Psychic by switching in. Also, pumping up Leavanny by saying "it has Shadow Claw access" while deriding Sawsbuck for having low bp moves is very hypocritical, since Sawsbuck does get Faint Attack. I could see an argument for Leavanny in D-rank, but that's giving it a lot of credit that it doesn't deserve in this metagame.
Victreebell is top-C and requires Sun to function. Leavanny, while being capable of functioning without it, functions way better under the Sun too, as it is capable of outspeeding every Scarfer under the Sun (same goes for Sawsbuck and Leafeon though). That being said, they can all afford to run Adamant under the Sun, but if you can't get Sun up for some reason you're screwed).

Also, Leavanny isn't that frail. It can take most neutral attacks and some SE attacks as well (like Leafeon's X-Scissor), since its bulk is actually similar to Leafeon's, though more rounded. Leavanny also deters CB Sawk from using Earthquake on your Misdreavus switch-in (which is very significant actually if you happen to run both since Stone Edge and Ice Punch suck if you are locked into them), can take Sawk's CB Close Combat after Rocks as well and turns a variety of mons in complete liabilities if someone happens to run them.

I did not know Sawsbuck had Faint Attack access, though - but Faint Attack requires it to give up Nature Power, a STAB move or Swords Dance, and you just said how significant Nature Power is (and I think we agree STAB on Double-Edge and Return are reasons to use Sawsbuck over its fellow Grass-types as well, leaving replacing Horn Leech as the only option but then why aren't you using Kanga?). Also a neutral Double-Edge hits harder than a Super-Effective Faint Attack. Leavanny however, has only three significant moves: Leaf Blade, X-Scissor, and Synthesis or Swords Dance, leaving your fourth moveslot to be whatever you desire in that slot, like Heal Bell, Substitute, Baton Pass, Shadow Claw, Knock Off, Light Screen, Reflect, Agility, Return or even Leaf Storm (for things like Regirock, defensive Carracosta and Gurdurr after a Bulk Up).
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
since Sawsbuck does get Faint Attack
Why are we mentioning Faint Attack? Wild Charge that Drifblim to death why don't you, unless Haunter and Shedinja bother you that much.
252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 199-235 (85.77 - 101.29%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Grass post
If you hate Horn Leech that much, there is Seed Bomb :p

In all seriousness, these Grass-types have similiarities but they shouldn't really be compared. Yes, all three know Swords Dance + Baton Pass, have similiar Attack and Speed, and....that's it I think.
-Sawsbuck's greatest strength is both STAB coverage and neutral coverage: Normal + Grass is tough to resist outright, and Sawsbuck has the coverage to hit literally everything that does. This also means it is the most competent at Swords Dance sweeping and a Scarf set.

-Leafeon's greatest strength is how seamless its stats seem to fit for it in a Baton Passing role, and also has the bulk to support with Heal Bell, Roar and Wish.

-Leavanny...I dunno. It seems to be a mix between the two (better coverage than Leafeon, better bulk than Sawsbuck, even its Attack stat lies in between Sawsbuck and Leafeon) and has Bug STAB, but its Speed has fallen below the golden benchmark of 95, and that alone means it has a bit more difficulty trying to pull something of. Even then it suffers competition with nearly everything it tries to do.
  • Dual Screens? We have the bulkier Meganium or the faster Serperior.
  • Heal Bell? Lots of Grass-types have Aromatherapy, which is essentially a rewording of Heal Bell.
  • Swords Dance? Sawsbuck's coverage issue in 3 attacks are nothing compared to Leavanny, while Scolipede isn't too bothered by Alomomola anyway
  • Swords Dance + Baton Pass? The faster, stronger and physically bulkier Leafeon gives it a serious run for its money, or Ninjask for dedicated passing.
  • Grass-type that can beat down Psychics? Shiftry and Cacturne can do that too and have offensive utility like Spikes or Exploding.
  • Bug-type sweeper that can beat Ghosts? Scolipede does have access to Aqua Tail to hurt Golurk hard, and its much better speed and coverage is superior to Leavanny. There's also Armaldo who destroys Drifblim. Basically the only Ghost you're hitting is Misdreavus, and you want Heal Bell for its Will-o-Wisps (meaning no Shadow Claw for Blimp and even Haunter), so your advantage is ruined.
  • Sun sweeping? Any Chlorophyll sweeper with Growth and/or Sleep Powder will have much less trouble sweeping.
  • Calm Mind, not that it's good on Leavanny? Serperior.
  • Erm...Knock Off? Leafeon and Serperior have it.
  • Well...what about Magic Coat?? Meganium has it.
  • Hey, it has Endure + Flail and Swarm!! I bet know Grass-type gets that right??? Well Leafeon gets Endure + Flail but no Swarm..:D...but now you have to compete with Pinsir who has Moxie and Quick Attack :eek:
Yeah I stooped down to some really obscure examples there, but it goes to show how there is always something that does whatever Leavanny can do and likely do it better, either because of better bulk, speed or coverage. Arguing that Leavanny having access to all these options that illustrates its versatality isn't convincing since it can't use these moves all at once, and even then it could fall short of performance because other Grass or Bugs can do what it does...better. Pretty much the only thing I see that is unique with Leavanny is that it is the only Bug-type (bar Kricketune lol) that has Heal Bell, but since it is part-Grass you might as well use a Grass anyway as its Bug-resistances (Fighting, Ground, Grass) will hardly be missed. If you like those resists so much, Altaria is an alternative, resisting basically everything Leavanny does bar Electric in exchange for a very useful Fire resist and Dragon + Ice weakness (Dragon is hardly relevant, while Ice-types kill Leavanny anyway).

Simply put, Leavanny struggles to differentiate itself. The fact that it can do so much for a Bug-type probably earns it a spot out of E (maybe low/mid D, maybe not :/ ), but I can't really see that much of a reason to use it. Sorry Aasgier :(
 
Last edited:

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Don't forget Sawsbuck is capable of running band and scarf too. Keeping both of those sets in mind pretty much derails most of Aasgier's arguments.
 
Good, and then you're locked into a move that's commonly resisted on many teams (all of Sawsbuck's moves are).

Sawsbuck has at least reasons to run a Scarf, but it's still frail and now fails to 2HKO Alomomola or to OHKO Golurk regardless of Golurk's HP investment.
Running a Band on Sawsbuck means it hits at least hard enough.

Leavanny is in a similar vein though, as it gains some KO's with a Band and an Adamant Nature (Zebstrika with X-Scissor regardless of Ability, Musharna after SR and one layers of Spikes, the 2HKO on Braviary with Leaf Blade after SR, the tie with Swellow, the OHKO on Haunter with Leaf Blade and numerous others),
 

tennisace

not quite too old for this, apparently
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Aasgier you still haven't said anything relevant that would support your suggestion that either: Sawsbuck should be dropped from Mid-B to Low-C (it shouldn't), or Leavanny should be raised from E to Low-C (it shouldn't). Saying that Leavanny and Sawsbuck and Leafeon are similar repeatedly doesn't make it true.
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
Leavanny is basically Dusknoir in RU only the meta game it is in also shifts towards it. Dusknoir is mid D for the reasons that also apply to Leavanny and the metagame of RU is fairly nice to ghost types. Leavanny's tier is against it thus it should get top E rank. lol ranking all E mons that'd be fun ;D
 
FUCK @ data deleted; I worked 40 minutes on that post and it disappeared. Yey. Take II.

Note that I despise Sawsbuck because I lost several matches because it failed KO's where Leavanny (or Leafeon) could've done it, so I am a bit biased against it. It is also why I am biased towards Leavanny; it often just pulled through where everything else failed.

Why Sawsbuck should not be Mid B-rank:
First: Predictability
If it does not run Horn Leech, why the hell are you not using Kangaskhan?
If it does not run Return/Double-Edge, why the hell are you not using Torterra, Leavanny or Leafeon?
If it does not run Nature Power, why the hell are you using Sawsbuck at all?

It is also forced to run a Life Orb, since the Scarfed set is ridiculously weak and any Choiced set is forced to deal with common resistances and immunities omnipresent on any team.

Second: Frailty. It has a bad defensive typing, and no bulk, which means priority hurts it a lot, and priority is very common in NU. This is further aggrevated through Life Orb + Double-Edge recoil.

Third: Scolipede. Scolipede cannot directly switch in unless it is certain that it won't switch into Double-Edge, but it is very common especially at higher ratings (it becomes more common the higher the ratings become from what I know), and Scolipede can outspeed and OHKO Sawsbuck with Megahorn.

Fourth: Misdreavus is also very common. Whereas it is true Leavanny or the other Grass-types can't really deal with Misdreavus either, the matchup issues aren't as big as with Sawsbuck as it loses regardless unlike Leavanny (SD defeats any non-Foul Play Misdreavus), or Leafeon (who Baton Passes away), or Torterra (which will attack and if it switches out, resists Stealth Rock anyway)

Why Leavanny should not be E-rank:

First: Unpredictability.
While Leaf Blade and X-Scissor are mandatory... what you do with the other two slots is completely up to you. It is what made writing the analysis a nightmare because Leavanny is just Leaf Blade + X-Scissor and two other moves.
Swords Dance, Synthesis, Shadow Claw, Return, Substitute, Knock Off, Dual Screens, Heal Bell, Leaf Storm (to hit physical tanks like Regirock and defensive Carracosta) and even Magic Coat are all possibilities to use in numerous combinations in between those, and neither of these options are bad. However, just like with Sawsbuck, a Life Orb is mandatory to hit hard enough.

Leavanny can also run a CB set with an Adamant nature under the Sun which hits quite hard and makes many switch-ins liabilities due to the sudden raw power behind some of the moves (Leaf Blade threatens a 2HKO to Braviary after SR, for example).

Second: Some bulk accompanied by a decent typing. It can take a Close Combat from Adamant Sawk with 90+% certainty factoring in Stealth Rock (though Life Orb recoil will kill Leavanny afterwards), a feat Leafeon cannot claim. Leafeon certainly has more physical bulk, but Leavanny has a better typing to take these physical attacks.

Leavanny has a very useful Fighting-resist, and its quad resistance to Ground really deters some powerful Choice Band users like Golurk or Mold Breaker Sawk to lock themselves into things like Earthquake which they would normally use to hit that Misdreavus switch-in. Leavanny can take Earthquakes and Woodhammers for decades and joyfully switch in these moves and set up.
The most I've seen an Earthquake doing to Leavanny was 35%, and that was a CB Groudon for the devil's sake (noobs exist :p ).
 
Last edited:

tennisace

not quite too old for this, apparently
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Why Sawsbuck should not be Mid B-rank:
First: Predictability
If it does not run Horn Leech, why the hell are you not using Kangaskhan?
If it does not run Return/Double-Edge, why the hell are you not using Torterra, Leavanny or Leafeon?
If it does not run Nature Power, why the hell are you using Sawsbuck at all?

It is also forced to run a Life Orb, since the Scarfed set is ridiculously weak and any Choiced set is forced to deal with common resistances and immunities omnipresent on any team.
I never said it shouldn't run any of those moves. I pointed out a stupid move to get around Ghost-types (Faint Attack) when you pointed out a stupid move to get around Ghost-types (Shadow Claw Leavanny). In addition, being predictable doesn't matter when a) it works, and b) you can very easily take advantage of its common switch-ins.

Second: Frailty. It has a bad defensive typing, and no bulk, which means priority hurts it a lot, and priority is very common in NU. This is further aggrevated through Life Orb + Double-Edge recoil.
Hey let's play a game of guess that Pokemon!

Pokemon A: 75 HP / 80 Def / 70 SpD
Pokemon B: 80 HP / 70 Def / 70 SpD

The easiest way to calculate the relative "bulk" of a Pokemon is to multiply their HP stat by their specific Defense stat. Thus:

Pokemon A: 6000 Physical Bulk, 5250 Special Bulk
Pokemon B: 5600 Physical Bulk, 5600 Special Bulk

Pokemon A has ~7% higher Physical Bulk, but ~6% less Special Bulk.

Pokemon A is Leavanny. Pokemon B is Sawsbuck. The difference is not significant, so calling Sawsbuck frail while calling Leavanny bulky is flat out wrong. Sure, Leavanny has slightly better typing, but it's significantly more weak to hazards, and doesn't have an immunity that it can fall back on.

Third: Scolipede. Scolipede cannot directly switch in unless it is certain that it won't switch into Double-Edge, but it is very common especially at higher ratings (it becomes more common the higher the ratings become from what I know), and Scolipede can outspeed and OHKO Sawsbuck with Megahorn.
This is a moot point since you said it yourself, Scolipede cannot directly switch in. I never said that Sawsbuck was absolutely infallible; that's why it's B-rank currently. Scolipede can also outspeed and OHKO Jynx, but you don't see me calling Jynx a bad Pokemon because of it.

Fourth: Misdreavus is also very common. Whereas it is true Leavanny can't really deal with Misdreavus either, its SD set still beats any Misdreavus without Foul Play.
We've been over this before in the Leavanny thread: Leavanny does not beat Misdreavus. Misdreavus burns Leavanny which cripples it, and then can heal up with Pain Split or leave it for another mon like Scolipede (!!!) to deal with.

You seem to misunderstand the rankings so I'll quote it here:

B-rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Sawsbuck:
-Has notable flaws, namely walled by most Ghost-types and frail
-Positive traits outshine negative, namely has the 95 spe tier, has an immunity, has good coverage
-Needs some team support, namely pursuit support to get rid of Misdreavus and maybe something to get rid of Tspikes

It's not C-rank, because Sawsbuck's flaws do not prevent it from being effective in the metagame at all, and it doesn't require significant support from teammates.

Why Leavanny should not be E-rank:

Stuff
So first Life Orb is mandatory, then it can run a CB set, but Sawsbuck can't? Leavanny is weaker than Sawsbuck. It might have stronger Grass-type STAB in Leaf Blade, but it has weaker secondary STAB in X-Scissor that makes up for the difference. I would respond to your individual points but it's very clear (and you said this yourself) that you're biased against Sawsbuck and for Leavanny. Unless Sawsbuck killed your parents in an unfortunate accident, this is completely illogical and it shows in your arguments.

D-rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

Leavanny:
-Mediocre in the NU metagame, by virtue of its unfortunate speed tier, SR weakness, and not-that-great bulk with no immunities to help it
-Decent enough to justify use on some teams (aasgier's teams I suppose, or teams looking for a "creative" Bug-type that isn't Pinsir)
-kind of flirts the line between "no real niche" and "only capable of doing its specific task and failing at much else"

This is going to be my last post on the subject, because I feel like I've humored this tangent for way too long. Sorry Raseri!
 
I mean I guess Leavanny has that Fighting resistance and 4x resistances to Grass and Ground but I'm not sure how useful that is when it's weak to Ice/Rock, which every Fighting type carries, and every Grass-type except maybe Sawsbuck and Exeggutor has a SE coverage for it.
 
Wait... I was stupid, I had 70/60/60 bulk in my mind for Sawsbuck instead of 80/70/70. Yeah, the difference is insignificant. Then I don't know why my Sawsbuck dies so easy compared to my Leavanny bar being Fighting-weak.

I also did not know it was that simple to calculate physical/special bulk. It doesn't calculate survivability though, which sucks.

About Leavanny, I'll keep it as short as I can so we can put it to an end (I'd like to end this debate in a proper closure, though, instead of an "I'm the boss, and this is how it is," because it might be not, ask Raseri :p )
So first Life Orb is mandatory, then it can run a CB set, but Sawsbuck can't? Leavanny is weaker than Sawsbuck.
I meant Leavanny needs the extra power, that only a Life Orb (when running two or three attacks) or Choice Band (when running four) can provide.
And really, Sawsbuck is in a similar vein. It can't really imagine it being succesful with a Scarf, but its CB set might be decent with Megahorn instead of Swords Dance... If someone has been succesful with Scarf Sawsbuck, tell me, though.

Leavanny does not beat Misdreavus.
Only in the case of Leavanny w/o Swords Dance, or if Missy has a free switch on a Leavanny that has yet to setting up. Leavanny's victory will be Pyrrhic regardless, as it ends up with a burn and at less than half health, and if Missy wins - I think Missy cannot avoid losing most of her health either. But as you said, we went over that in the Leavanny thread, so I'll leave it at this.

Also, Leavanny's Shadow Claw defeats a would-be counter (Drifblim) and checks another (Haunter). It is there for these two, mostly, and rarely serves another purpose.

@Axa: You'll mostly capitalize on those three resistances when the opponent is Choice-locked.
 
I'll chime in a little bit here. Sawsbuck is not dropping to C-rank. It is better than Leavanny under most conditions. Leavanny's slightly greater bulk is useless because of the stealth rock weakness.

However, Leaanny for D-rank is something I'm fine with and actually support. It isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, and it can differentiate itself from Leafeon and Sawsbuck enough to have a small niche.

so please stop :(
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Going to suggest Bronzor for at least D-Rank, if not Low C-Rank. I was using CM+RestTalk Bronzor recently (ie CroZor), and it's pretty legit on stall teams as a staller/cleaner. With its nice bulk with Eviolite and great defensive typing, Bronzor can set up Calm Mind all day and RestTalk gives it a lot of durability. Bronzor is horrendously weak (24 SpA lol), but after CM boosts it hits decently hard with Flash Cannon and works excellently in tandem with Toxic Spikes and Heal bell support. it's not amazing, but it's definitely viable in NU.

Also, Lampent for C, TR Lampent is pretty damn cool, D is definitely too low imo.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Bronzor requires too much support for C imo. It practically needs at least 3 CM boosts to do jack all to neutrals, it wants Toxic Spikes and Heal Bell so it doesn't risk being sitting there and being useless while boosting / sleeping, and it is oh so vulnerable to crits. Even if its defenses and typing are good, lack of reliable recovery and speed means that the time it takes to set up puts it at risk from a great number of things.

Lampent though, has potential. With Energy Ball it can at least take on the bulky Water-types that reside in NU, and it has great STAB coverage to hit stuff, functioning almost like some sort of 'reverse' Combusken with Trick Room. C from me too.
 
Bronzor: Well... it is slow and has to set up to hit decently hard. However, it can wall a lot of stuff with RestTalkCM and Flash Cannon and slowly set up, provided it doesn't get critted that is (and since Bronzor is weak initially, it'll take a while to set up, which means plenty of critical hit chances).
I can see it being D-Rank, and won't object if it gets Low C-rank, but will if it gets any higher since it requires so much support and lacks initial power.

Lampent, yeah, D-Rank doesn't do it justice. It hits hard and 'outspeeds' a lot under Trick Room. and has very good three-move coverage in Fire Blast, Shadow Ball and Energy Ball. This only misses out on Houndour as far as I know, which is hardly something to call relevant.
I agree that it should go C-Rank.

Wait, I missed Punchshroom's post about Leav', and I can agree with that. Didn't know Serp and Leafeon had Knock Off, and I agree they are better users of that move (as well as that Serp and Meganium are better users of Dual Screens in NU). Also, Altaria does actually resist Fighting as well.

Edit: OK, Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard under the sun hits ridiculously hard XD. It is fun to just mash that button and watch things die, though. Normal roadblocks for Sun are now OHKO'd, which is very, very nice.
 
Last edited:

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Also, Altaria does actually resist Fighting as well.
Sorry, I meant to say it doesn't resist Electric while Leavanny does, but since Zebstrika, Eelektross and both Rotoms KO it it's hardly an advantage, while Altaria does actually take on these Electrics and even lays claim to walling Eelektross.
 

ryan

Jojo Siwa enthusiast
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I'd like to comment briefly on Rotom-S because to be honest I feel like it's easily as good—if not better than—Rotom-F right now. Both of them are still really good in NU right now, even if their Choice Scarf sets might have fallen out of popularity due to their inferior Speed to Jynx, Primeape, Haunter, Charizard, etc. However, they are both still really good as Choice Scarf users and in general right now. What gets me is that Rotom-S is Mid B, while Rotom-F is Top B. I think that they should both be Top B.

The things that set Rotom-S apart from Rotom-F are its far better defensive typing, sporting resistances to Fighting, Bug, Steel, and Grass. Rotom-S is also hit neutrally by Fire. Meanwhile, Rotom-F is weak to Fighting and Fire and hit neutrally by Bug, Steel, and Grass. Overall, these types may seem a bit unimportant, but when you consider it, Rotom-S's ability to switch in for its teammates makes up for its lack of powerful secondary STAB. Additionally, while its secondary STAB isn't quite as powerful as that of Rotom-F's, Air Slash is still a great move with its flinch chance and its ability to hit Grass-types. On top of this, it's a far more reliable move than Blizzard. This allows Rotom-S to play a bit more consistently than Rotom-F. This is where I think they should be in the same ranking. You can choose Rotom-F, which has a stronger secondary STAB with greater coverage, or you can choose Rotom-S, which has a more reliable secondary STAB with good coverage.

Both have their pros and cons, but defensively, Rotom-S is superior, and offensively, they are on a similar level. I'd like to see Rotom-S in Top B.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Yeah I usually have more trouble taking out Rotom-S than Rotom-F because it resists just so much stuff. It may not be as strong as Rotom-F offensively but it can still hold its own in that department, while defensively it is leagues better than Rotom-F (Rotom-F uses a SubSplit offensively while its Sub dies away easily, Rotom-S does this to piss everyone off with paraflinch). Support for Top-B due to being able to pull off offense and defense effectively.
 
Lampent is fine in D-rank imho was much better on the past metas with Magmortar / Klinkang / Cryogonal / Emboar / Hail teams; but in this meta meta has a very limited niche, needs Eviolite for a very decent bulk - with no leftovers, weak to Stealth Rock, hits a bit weak and weak to Pursuit. Otherwise, Lampent is slow so have an hard time to pull off.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Lampent is fine in D-rank imho was much better on the past metas with Magmortar / Klinkang / Cryogonal / Emboar / Hail teams; but in this meta meta has a very limited niche, needs Eviolite for a very decent bulk - with no leftovers, weak to Stealth Rock, hits a bit weak and weak to Pursuit. Otherwise, Lampent is slow so have an hard time to pull off.
I agree with some of these points, but Lampent doesn't need Eviolite (but is recommended), it can equip a Life Orb for more power though it will have a harder time setting up Trick Room, which of course leads to the next point about it being slow, which is a good thing for it.
 
The problem w/o Eviolite is that is super weak with the overall bulk:60/60/60 + weak to Stealth Rock not time to Trick Room, also very sensitive to Taunt users like Mandibuzz, Skuntank or Samurott, dont miss btw that Lampent is weak to common priority like Acua Jet or Sucker Punch.

I tried on the past on my NU team Trick Room manual Sun :x
 

tennisace

not quite too old for this, apparently
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Lampent: Honestly I think it deserves to be in Low-C. D-rank is generally reserved for mons that have an extremely small niche in the metagame and won't work in most situations. However, with Eviolite, 3 immunities (Fire, Normal, and Fighting), and a few cool resistances, Lampent is able to switch in on a lot of Pokemon that most teams have trouble with, like Charizard or Primeape, and either hit fairly hard or set up Trick Room for the team. It's not a better OTR mon than say, Musharna or Beheyeem, but it can get the job done if you say, needed a second TR mon for your team that isn't Psychic-type.

Rotom-S: Top-B is pretty fitting, since it's not a top mon in the tier anymore, but sort of like Rotom-C in RU, it supports offense with Volt Switch, outspeeds what it needs to outspeed (shell smash mons, Scarf Sawk, Scolipede), and has access to a few cool support options outside of its normal scarf set. The downfall is that it's outsped by Scarf Jynx/Primeape/Charizard, but I can name on one hand mons that aren't outsped by them anyway. A solid ranking for a solid mon imo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DTC

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
I must say in a general manner, I really like how the mons are displayed in the different tiers atm and think it's pretty representative of my opinion but there is one mon that really disturbs me and that is gurdurr for I think he is far from being mid A rank.

I barely even get why gurdurr is there in the first place, I don't think a team can be even close to being called a tiny bit good if it doesn't have a fighting resist or sawk and primape will completely tear up that team. The problem is, Gurdurr doesn't break any of the switch-ins that would come in on sawk or primeape except maybe golurk considering sawk and ape are choiced. Now a team without either musharna, misdreavus, golbat, garbodor, weezing, tangela, gothorita or even scolipede to a certan extent (will explain later) is pretty damn rare. Now unlike sawk or maybe even primeape, gurdurr is not capable of hitting as hard and dealing enough damage for musharna or golbat to even wonder if they should heal or attack the next turn (I think we can all consider guts + orb attacker and sub punch as pretty bad sets that don't really need to be considered). Now you'll tell me Gurdurr is meant to be a late game sweeper and not a wallbreaker but the truth is, a fighting late game sweeper that needs to boost is really not that much of an interesting thing in the current NU as all the previously listed checks are very often in the last 2 or 3 mons to die if not the last one. Now even if they do die fast in a game, gurdurr still needs to deal with it's terrible speed which is not fully covered through mach punch. Many powerful special attackers like haunter, gardevoir or samurott can just come in after gurdurr made his first kill or while it's boosting and kill it off pretty easily. This brings me back to scolipede and garbodor who can pretty much set up a whole lot of spikes on gurdurr and even if they let gurdurr set up( and garbo mught have clear smog), in the end it'll just be killed by samurott haunter or another. Sure gurdurr can run stone-edge over ice punch to hit scoli (and charizard who otherwise completely walls him), but it then misses out on the most common pokemon in the tier, golurk on which it can't just relly on a slow kill because it won't be healing through drain punch at all.

In the end, gurdurr just seems to be a poke every team covers without much effort and often more than once, it's not hitting hard enough to use a hit and run strategy and even suffers from 4mss and is a invitation to a couple of spikers to just come in and piss on your cheerios like tennisace would say.

Now with these new top, mid, low divisions, the drop I suggest might seem huge but it's really just the minimum drop in the previous system, I believe gurdurr should be placed in mid B because it has nothing and I mean absolutely nothing of an A rank mon, Life orb sawk does pretty much everythning it does better bar maybe save your ass from weakend sweepers which anything with priority will do, sure it's bulkier but what's bulk worth on stuff like schuckle ? Well to me gurdurr is pretty much in the same boat in this meta where everyone has gurdurr covered.
 
Last edited:
now that im not dead, changes time!!

Rotom-S up to Top B from Mid B
Lampent up to Low C from D
Bronzor added to D rank
also C-rank should be in the first post soon, i just have to edit it in!
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Gurdurr for mid-B
Okay, first things first. I agree that Gurdurr is shat on pretty hard by Golbat and Musharna compared to the other Fighters, but the ability to beat Misdreavus and set up on Scolipede is not to be underestimated. I don't even know why you brought the latter two up: Misdreavus gets pwned by Guts Payback (while the 2 Fighters can't beat Missy one-on-one), while Gurdurr can just as easily set up Bulk Ups as Pede sets Spikes so that your revenge killer is bowled over by +3/+4 Mach Punch, maybe even more if it decides to go all the way considering Pede does jack all to it. Also, it is one of the select few pokemon that walls and threatens Mandibuzz at the same time, so just a thought.

Gurdurr is still a premier offensive tank, its main draw being its ability to tank a hit, dish out a strong hit itself, and recover some health lost. I really need to stress on that last one, since it is both Gurdurr's main offense and survivability at the same time, and allows it to come out on top in most neutral matchups with health to spare. Yes, it is vulnerable to special hits and is slow, yet you're undermining it just for that? You might as well usher down Piloswine and Carracosta then (don't)! Gurdurr has priority, bulk, power, a great boosting move, fantastic abilities, and coverage, which seems pretty damn generous for just Mid-A. In any case, it's leagues better than Throh who can't do shit without RestTalk (which auto-loses to Ghosts) and Circle Throw variants are helpless against opposing phazing, good lord.
 
Last edited:

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
@Punchshroom
Sorry for not mentionning Payback, I forgot about that one, but even then, using payback does make you lose out on vileplume, altaria and masquerain (who might no be common but becomes so dangerous after a boost or 2). Ok, it wrecks mandibuzz, but all fighting types pretty much wreck mandibuzz especially considering foul play is more common than brave bird. Now when I say pede can set up spikes, there's an intelligent way to do it, I don't mean full spikes necessarily and even with a boost, 2 or even 3, samurott, haunter, charizard and gardevoir can all come in to revenge kill it while some walls like mushy, altaria, vileplume all have their own way of dealing with him before it gets to max boosts (altaria also has fun phazing payback users out since roar has negative priority).

I'll give you payback gurdurr is good against certan standard offensive teams like the jynx, pede, missy, kanga, rock type + filler team but it pretty much ends there because your post doesn't cover the main point of mine being if your opponent has a golbat, tangela, musharna weezing or other very reliable answer to gurdurr, you're pretty much guaranteed gurdurr will do straight nothing in that game because they're some of the sturdiest walls to break down and completely wreck the concept of gurdurr being a late game sweeper. I personnaly am not a fan of misdreavus and tend to run other answers to fighting types and haven't seen a gurdurr do anything worth of A tier in a very long time (I do wreckon it once was a complete monster).

Now, about it's niche over other fighting types being it's bulk and mach punch, well it's bulk as I said before is completely usless if gurdurr is going to be a sitting duck all game because you can't defeat the sturdy wall that stops him from sweeping and he's too weak to weaken it through time like sawk does with mushy so it's only useful against the standard offensive team I talked about earlier. Mach punch is a cool niche but it's actually not that good of a priority move, check all the fast threats of the meta and mach punch actually hits for super effective damage tauros, sneasel and kanga and zanz who both aren't that fast at all but just have prio too. On the other hand gurdurr will struggle helping you stop a sweep from charizard, gardevoir, drifblim, rotom-s, swoobat, haunter, eggy and victreebell in sun, mantine and swanna in rain. So mach punch is not that good of revenge killing move and is more useful in grudrr's own sweep but we then come back to the fact it can't as long as all the sturdy walls are alive and it can't even help weaken them throughout the game. Not to mention gurdurr doesn't find that much opportunities to set up either for fighting only let's it completely wall physical bugs, rocks and darks (and the most common dark has taunt and isn't weak to fighting).
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top