Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[Annoyer]

Munchlax for top C because it can wall a bunch of special attackers like Jynx and Charizard in one slot which is phenomenal and its niche as a normal type phazer is pretty good on stall - semi-stall teams especially with the great resistances that Thick Fat provides. When you have switch ins to the thing that give Munchlax hell (like Golurk or Sawk) on a stall team, Munchlax can do a lot of work such as coming in on basically any special attacker and phazing away. its RestTalk set is really unappreciated altho its pretty good. it also has a nifty offensive set with Pursuit and EQ to surprise stuff like Bastiodon and you can also trap Haunter and Jynx which is really beneficial on offensive teams. The lack of lefties is kind of lame but Munchlax can still make do so top C is a good fit for it.

Swoobat to mid C because of its speed and ability. Although a lot of times it may be hard to find the right set up opportunity for a CM, when you find that time Swoobat will not let you down. Psychic/Stored Power after a CM is really hard to switch in to because if you switch into a wall, more likely than not Swoobat can set up another CM in your face and with its really high speed in NU, it can take down most teams bar revenge killers. You can always find a couple of opportunities to set up CMs such as against Mush (which it beats pretty effectively which is cool especially if it using sub) or like Jynx locked into Psychic, Golurk locked into eq or drain punch etc etc. Swoobat is definitely good enough for mid C just because how much of a threat it is after a boost just like other sweepers.

 

[Lasagne]

Munchlax should definitely be Top C for just being a really good special wall. It walls 2 of the best special attackers in nu reliably: Jynx and Charizard. Munchlax's special bulk is kinda ridiculous. It has really good HP, pretty nice SpD, and with the Eviolite boost, can take p much any special hit you throw at him. Unfortunately its physical defense is a bit lacking, and its lackluster offensive presence prevents it from moving to B or higher. It also has a weakness to one of the most prevalent types in NU: Fighting. This means top threats like Sawk, Primeape and Gurdurr can kill it very quickly. Munchlax is a solid special wall, but unfortunately isn't much else besides that.

Edit: 200 posts yay!

 

[tennisace]

In a C-tier or lower mon, the characteristic you need to look for first is not "is this mon totally outclassed" but "how well does this mon do against the most common mons in the metagame".

Scraggy in Mid-C is a real disservice, since I count at least 10 of the top 20 pokemon that are set up on by BU Scraggy, and more that will probably get beat depending on the set. Compare that with Vigoroth, who can't set up on anywhere near that number, yet is in the same tier. Scraggy should easily be Top C.

Riolu, on the other hand, is entirely team-dependent. You need a shitton of support for it to work, since the only viable set is a hazard shuffler. If you can't get hazards up, it's utterly useless. In addition, it's beaten by faster priority (say, Kangaskhan or I guess Linoone). It should be Mid C, or even Low C.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Grumpig is top C at least.

Countering any Jynx set is just pretty good niche :}

 

[Punchshroom]

You have to consider that there isn't much priority that either isn't taken advantage of by Riolu (Sub against Protect or Sucker Punch) or even outspeeds it (Gurdurr, Metang, Piloswine all fail to stop it, heck they provide the Roar opportunity). Fake Out, Quick Attack and Aqua Jet are really the only common priority that can beat Riolu (a weak enough Aqua Jet/Quick Attack can be Roared against, though), otherwise the opponent is in for a world of hurt.

I agree that Riolu is team-dependant, but between Protect (for Taunt), Substitute (for status, Trick or failed priority moves) and Drain Punch (for problematic pokes like Liepard, Magic Coat Bastiodon and even Kangaskhan if its health is good enough), Riolu can actually hold its own well against things looking to impede it, which is pretty good considering Riolu only does one thing and even then it can be tricky to stop. Riolu can even Copycat certain moves for the revenge kill lol. Considering how hazard-weak and priority-less the meta is, Riolu can still opt for Top C.

I haven't used or seen Scraggy like at all, but I've heard plenty of positive experiences with it, what with good dual STABs, setup moves, abilities as well as decent survivability and bulk. May opt for Top C as well., but that is still debatable.

 

[Blast]

Backing up Scraggy for Top-C because it totally shits on, like, every single defensive mon in the tier: being able to set up freely against the likes of Missy, Alomomola, Tangela, and most SR leads with little to no hassle is pretty awesome. It's also an okay Jynx check thanks to Shed Skin, and pretty much the best Musharna counter ever (Skuntank got nothing on T-wave + Baton Pass). Definitely Top-C material.

 

[tennisace]

You have to consider that there isn't much priority that either isn't taken advantage of by Riolu (Sub against Protect or Sucker Punch) or even outspeeds it (Gurdurr, Metang, Piloswine all fail to stop it, heck they provide the Roar opportunity). Fake Out, Quick Attack and Aqua Jet are really the only common priority that can beat Riolu (a weak enough Aqua Jet/Quick Attack can be Roared against, though), otherwise the opponent is in for a world of hurt.

I agree that Riolu is team-dependant, but between Protect (for Taunt), Substitute (for status, Trick or failed priority moves) and Drain Punch (for problematic pokes like Liepard, Magic Coat Bastiodon and even Kangaskhan if its health is good enough), Riolu can actually hold its own well against things looking to impede it, which is pretty good considering Riolu only does one thing and even then it can be tricky to stop. Riolu can even Copycat certain moves for the revenge kill lol. Considering how hazard-weak and priority-less the meta is, Riolu can still opt for Top C.

1) If you don't have any hazards down, Roaring is 100% pointless because it does no damage and only serves to waste your PP.
2) Drain Punch and any other move you could Copycat is pretty weak unless you're attacking something with <10% hp (or I guess Liepard, but that's a matchup neither mon wants to get in). Drain Punch doesn't even 2hko Bastiodon after Leftovers.

The meta may be hazard weak, but you need hazards before you can even begin to use Riolu effectively, which is unlike any other mon in Top C, which are all by and large self-sufficient.

 

[Raseri]

k lots of valid points were made concerning NFE's. So I'm going to make the following changes to my list:

Scraggy up from Mid C to Top C
Munchlax up from Mid C to Top C
Swoobat up from Low C to Mid C
Riolu down to Mid C from Low C

Also I'm thinking Fraxure could fit into Low B rank really well. It's a great offensive threat, it's jynx weak which sucks. But Mold Breaker is a great ability and its one of the only good set up sweepers in NU. Thoughts?

Other things I'm looking into are Victreebel and Vileplume down to Top C. I like them, but they aren't that good. I'd like thoughts on them too.

 

[Annoyer]

yea i was thinking about putting fraxure for low b before but i kept forgetting
sure its jynx weak but unless its scarf fraxure beats it after a dd
(c/p of last fraxure post)
fraxure is just amazing because of dragon stab and dragon dance and with its stats it outspeed up to swellow and can ko nearly every offensive threat
taunt lets it set up on common walls such as alomomola and mold breaker allows it to break through sturdies of golem, probopass, or bastiodon
cb is also really strong with its high attack and high base pwoer attacks allowing it to break through most teams pretty well (usually 1 for 1 due to poor bulk)

its pure strength in general and coverage with a really good boosting move is pretty much unrivaled in nu and definitely makes it a threatening mon for any team to face
it is also one of the best mons against stall just due to taunt + boosting move and good coverage + power
its poor bulk usually lets it down at times but thats why its low b and not in 'a' tier
it definitely needs more usage too js pointing that out there...

i agree with victreebel down to top c - not many people have been using it really effectively and its not too threatening or really good - id like to hear others opinions though

 

[tennisace]

Victreebel is a good Sun Sweeper, but sun teams in general are really meh and it definitely shows. I'd use Shiftry over it as an offensive, frail Grass-type like 9 times out of 10, unless I was using it on a totally dedicated sun team (since bel has 4mss something awful). I'd say Top C (or hell, even Mid C) would be fair, since it really isn't self sufficient (something I posted about before).

Vileplume is a good mon but most people opt to use Roselia over it for the hazard support it brings as opposed to the better power of plume. Top C seems pretty fair, considering it's still very usable in the metagame, just a bit overlooked (for legit reasons).

 

[Punchshroom]

Sun teams used to wreck even more than Rain before Mandibuzz came along and ruined everything :(

 

[Axa]

Nominating Miltank for Low A, if not higher.

Almost anyone who's run into one of them can attest to how irritating and unpredictable she can be. Reliable recovery, access to SR, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell and Body Slam, an amazing base speed that allows it to go full-on offensive if need be, and three fantastic abilities that make her even better and more unpredictable (Sap Sipper, Scrappy, Thick Fat). Strong cleric, pivot and support, and decent enough on offense. Even Fighting attacks can only squeeze out a 2HKO or even only 3HKO if they hit her on her stronger defensive set if they aren't STABed. Her only issue is she can't Wish and has a slight 4MSS, but that's it as far as I can think.

 

[ryan]

I just posted about Miltank in the stats thread, and maybe it's just me but I really don't care for Miltank at all. Stealth Rock isn't a niche at all, and if you use Miltank as your Stealth Rock setter, you're going to have to use something else for your Normal/Flying resist (which is almost always going to be something else that uses Stealth Rock). Thunder Wave is ok I guess, though I'd personally probably rather use that slot for Earthquake or something else. Heal Bell is cool, and it's not something that everything has. But then it's competing with Audino and Lickilicky, both of which can support their team with Wish support. Offensive Miltank is really weak and needs a Sap Sipper boost, which makes it pretty matchup reliant, especially when considering how much Grass-types struggle right now with Scolipede and Jynx being top-tier mons. The three abilities are cool, of course, but as an offensive Sap Sipper Pokemon, I'd much rather use Sawsbuck. Kangaskhan makes much better use of Scrappy. And then Thick Fat is cool, but the top two Fire/Ice-type attackers are Jynx and Charizard, both of which carry Focus Blast, which does a huge amount of damage to it.

252 SpAtk Jynx Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Miltank (+SpDef) : 54.82% - 64.97% (2 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Charizard Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Miltank (+SpDef) : 52.79% - 62.44% (2-3 hits to KO)

To be honest, I'd probably rather see Miltank in Mid B, but I know that I'm a bit biased against Miltank because I've literally ever been able to get it work for me for the reasons I outlined above. Miltank just doesn't cut it as an A-rank Pokemon though, in my opinion.

Fraxure, however, is a really cool Pokemon, and I've brought it up on IRC a couple of times because I thought it should get the hell out of C-rank. It's bar none the best offensive Dragon-type in the tier. Jynx being everywhere makes it a bit of a pain to use, but thankfully it only needs one Dragon Dance to outspeed Timid Jynx and two to outspeed Scarf Jynx. Fraxure can also run a dual dance set with Dragon Dance and Swords Dance to make it a big problem for both offensive and defensive teams, or even Dragon Dance and Taunt to achieve the same end goal. If boosting isn't your style, Choice Band Fraxure hits really hard from the second it hits the field as well. As it is the best offensive Dragon-type in NU, I'm totally in favor of B-rank Fraxure.

 

[Punchshroom]

While Miltank may not be that much of a threat, she has a lot of staying power and is one of the most annoying pokemon ever to take out, all while boasting Seismtoad-levels of versatality. Usually, you don't know what ability she is running: is her Thick Fat ability tempting my Charizard or Jynx to potentially blow a sweep by using Focus Blast, when it didn't need to? Is Sap Sipper rendering my Serperior useless or make Sleep Powder a risky move to make? Or worst of all, can she can paralyze every pokemon I have with Body Slam? Miltank is no slouch both offensively (with Curse/Sap Sipper) and defensively (Heal Bell + Milk Drink). Unless I have a Gurdurr or something, I do not look forward to facing this cow in any match. Thus, I am not opposed to putting Miltank in low-A.

On the other hand, Fraxure has one other competitior in my opinion: Dragonair. While its power and coverage are not as good as Fraxure's, Dragonair's abilities greatly aid its setup against a lot more defensive pokemon, and it has access to Extreemespeed to stave off revenge killing in the same manner Carracosta does, mainly preventing Jynx revenge kills (and is useful for Liepard). Dragonair also has the option to invest defensively and still be effective, while Fraxure is stuck with an offensive spread. If Dragonair doesn't tie Fraxure in terms of most effective NU offensive Dragon, then it is definitely second best. If Fraxure goes to low-B, I'll opt for Nair to follow suit to Mid/Top-C (or even low-B alongside Frax, but that's pushing it :p). Yes, I know not having Dragon Claw sucks, but Extreemespeed is worth looking into.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think Miltank's problem is that many other Normal-types can do exactly what it does. If you're using Scrappy, you might as well use Kangaskhan, who has much greater offensive prowess. If you're using Sap Sipper, you're better off with Sawsbuck. Thick Fat is probably what sets it apart from Lickilicky, Audino and the like, while its support options keep it apart from Munchlax. However, it's bulk is lower compared to Lickilicky, and unlike the other pink blobs, she can't support her teammates with Wish. I don't think she should rise into A-rank since in my opinion she doesn't do as much as the other Normal-types do

As for Dragonair, I don't think it is as good as Fraxure, simply because she lacks power. Dragonair can't even OHKO Jynx with Extremespeed (not at +1 iirc), and if you consider Jynx's terrible physical bulk, that's rather embarrassing. Dragonair might be able to set up on bulkier mons, but arguably Fraxure does it almost as well due to Taunt. Unlike Fraxure, Dragonair can't reliable deal with Steel-types, while Fraxure easily demolishes them with Low Kick / Superpower. I admit though, that Dragonair can absorb status, but Fraxure can prevent it with Taunt anyway, and Dragonair can't even beat some status users (Jynx just owns it, Lickilicky hits it with a super effective phazing move). I'm not saying that Dragonair isn't good, but it doesn't really have a niche over Fraxure except as the role of a status absorber

 

[Infernis]

Miltank? Outclassed offensively by Kangaskhan? They're entirely different! Kangaskhan has situational priority, decent bulk, power, and less than base 95 speed. Miltank, on the other hand, has recovery, heal bell, more than base 95 speed, and about the same bulk. Miltank gets Curse (and Work Up) as a setup move, Kangaskhan only gets Work Up. More importantly, Miltank can keep setting up or keep sweeping because of her signature move, Milk Drink. As for Sawsbuck, it has less speed and bulk than Miltank. It does have somewhat higher attack, but Sap Sipper alleviates this somewhat. Admittedly Miltank does not gets Swords Dance, but I find it hard to find openings for Sawsbuck to use it with 80/70/70 defenses and that whack typing. Oh yeah, and Sawsbuck doesn't have healing udders. :p I think it's on par with the other normal type pink blobs, but not quite as good at stalling. It has a really fast Milk Drink, which is nice, but I think its most important utility as a defensive Pokemon is spreading paralysis. On the other hand, a really fast Heal Bell has saved my sweepers more than once. (Audino gets it, but is very very slow.) I would nominate Miltank for at least High B, possibly Low A.

 

[tennisace]

The problem with Miltank is that it has versatility, but none of its sets are particularly hard to deal with, and all of them have their flaws. The reason people use Miltank is that it has the initial surprise value the first time it enters the field in terms of not knowing what ability it has. Scrappy is mediocre since it can't come close to the power Kangaskhan has, Sap Sipper is alright but you lose out on "resistances" and therefore become a very shaky check to Charizard and Jynx (bigger threats than Grass-types are), and with Thick Fat you can check the aforementioned mons but it still doesn't help you all that much since they can both run Super Effective coverage. Miltank is fairly tiered as it is right now in Top B, as it can run any of these sets, but it's pretty much outclassed running any individual set either in terms of power, bulk, or team support.

 

[watashi]

miltank doesn't really have much going for it in this metagame. the offensive set is nowhere near as effective as kangaskhan or tauros while the defensive set doesn't really wall anything important and is hard to fit on a team. the curse set is probably it's best but it is predictable and any good team will have means to deal with it. anyways i think it should stay where it is at the moment. it has good stats and moves but nobody really thinks "wow i really need a miltank on my team right now because it does _______" because something else will probably do it better.

 

[Ewil]

Looking to the B Rank, Torkoal is in Mid-B while Wartortle is in Low-B. I think that they should be in the same group since both does his job really well (spinning), while both can do a secondary role: SmashKoal and Wartortle can be a good Physical or Special Wall with a bit of mystery in what moves he will has outside of Rapid Spin (ex you can't know if he's going to Toxic you or Haze your setup sweeper).
My only doubt is if Wartortle should be Mid-B or if Torkoal should get down to Low-B. Maybe Wartortle should rise to Mid-B because of his role of spinner, taking in to account that is a rare move in this tier.

 

[Punchshroom]

miltank doesn't really have much going for it in this metagame. the offensive set is nowhere near as effective as kangaskhan or tauros while the defensive set doesn't really wall anything important and is hard to fit on a team. the curse set is probably it's best but it is predictable and any good team will have means to deal with it. anyways i think it should stay where it is at the moment. it has good stats and moves but nobody really thinks "wow i really need a miltank on my team right now because it does _______" because something else will probably do it better.

Actually, if there's one thing Miltank is unparallaled at it's paralysis spreading. Between her well rounded bulk, instant recovery, good speed and Scrappy Body Slam, a team without Heal Bell is very likely going to have a good amount of mons paralyzed by Miltank, which is good news for pokemon like Samurott and Eelektross.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Not related to the current discussion, but can you please drop Stantler to E-Rank? It plain sucks and there is literally no reason to use it, it has no redeeming qualities that make it worth using in this meta, and there are more rewarding Normal-types. I would never ever use Stantler on a serious team in NU and I seriously think it should be E-Rank.

Fraxure to B, it kinda struggles in Jynx meta, but it's amazing in sweeping and almost nothing counters it after one DD.

Also I don't really care about Miltank either way, I haven't used it and it hasn't posed a problem for me.

 

[Raseri]

oh ya I was going to drop Stantler but forgot lol, done.

Changes:

Fraxure up to Low B from Top C
Stantler down to E from D
Vileplume down to Top C from Low B
Victeebel down to Top C from Low B

I'm fine with Dragonair moving up if people want, it is a Pokemon I have never had success with though. I've seen people use it great but it always does nothing for me. Top C im fine with if people post with support.

 

[Aasgier]

I have been playing around with Sun, with and without Mandibuzz.

The original team was something I copied from a RMT months ago; Regirock + Volbeat + Gardevoir + Sawsbuck + Exeggutor + Rapidash

Lessons of the team:
- Sawsbuck's Grass STAB is complete failure (confirmed from before). 100 Atk with 75 BP STAB sucks. You can have Normal STAB that hits hard but you won't hit anything for SE damage.
- Sawsbuck's defensive typing is failure as well (lol Gurdurr, but more things trouble it).
- Leafeon... only works on very few teams. I wanted to give it a try, but outside of being capable of OHKO'ing Golurk it was pretty useless.
- Leavanny proved to be better than I expected (again, as Leavanny was also being surprisingly good on my first team while being the last mon added) Sawsbuck is really overrated, and Leafeon just can't do much because its best set is a mono-attacking set (otherwise, Leavanny and Sawsbuck are better choices) and no teammates to take profit from the support that Leafeon could provide. Leavanny also has a better typing than Leafeon. Leaf Blade is also the most reliable physical Grass-attack around, and unlike Sawsbuck you can actually OHKO Golurk.
- Ghost- or Dark-type coverage on a Chlorophyll Sweeper is required on something that outspeeds Drifblim; either Shiftry or Leavanny's Shadow Claw.
- Rapidash does not hit hard enough and is often set up fodder due to its CB.
- Victreebell is required as it doubles as a Sun Sweeper as well as a Toxic Spikes absorber.
- Replacing Gardevoir (like I did) leaves you vulnerable to Trick, and it goes without saying Jynx won't work due to Sun.
- Exeggutor is not as bad as it is made out to be with Mandibuzz in the tier, but it is no longer truly dependable as it performance is pretty damn random (and this gets further aggrevated by the fact that I'm not the best player around here).

And then, the post (without the intention to, actually) boils down to a point I mentioned before in this thread, but did not get any significant response to, which is that I always felt Leafeon, Leavanny and Sawsbuck being similarly (or not) viable on any team. They all have niches and all heavily compete with each other. If you consider one of them, you cannot forget about the other two. If you need that STAB Return and Nature Power, go ahead and pick Sawsbuck. Want a Grass-type that can 2HKO Musharna as well as having Shadow Claw access? Go with Leavanny. Need a Baton Passer that does not mind a mono-attacking set? Go with Leafeon. Under the Sun, where they really shine, Leafeon shoots itself in the foot by having no coverage or secondary typing (and the coverage it has (Return and X-Scissor) is better utilized by the other two which get STAB on one of those moves), as Baton Passing under the sun doesn't really work, as well as the fact that other common Sunsweepers either have SD themselves, or Growth if they don't.
I suggest to put Sawsbuck, Leafeon and Leavanny in the same rank, and Leafeon's current ranking imho seems fine for the three of them: Low C-Rank.

I am too tired to continue about the Fire-types, as well as that I feel they need more testing in my team as I only made the changes to those today and only extensively used Rapidash - which was disappointing. 'Zard hits like a nuke but have yet to need it (the games I won, were due to Leavanny and Victreebell sweeping, and I only lost one game - to a Lopunny of all things).

 

[tennisace]

You're comparing three totally different Pokemon and then saying they all fill the same niche of "Physically attacking Grass-type" so they're all the same Pokemon and all the same rank. That's disingenuous at best, flat out wrong at worst.

Sawsbuck is currently in Mid-B because it has much better coverage than the other two (Nature Power is very significant), has the equivalent of Physical Giga Drain (but you aren't knocking special attacking Grass-types for using it), and then on top of that has a more powerful Double Edge than Kangaskhan, with the ability to recover some of that health later. If you want to argue that it should be Low-B because the metagame is now geared against it a bit, with Scolipede and Spikes and Tspikes everywhere, and the metagame being designed to outspeed its speed tier (as opposed to when the benchmark was 80-85): sure I could accept that. Arguing that it should be Low-C because it's vaguely similar to Leavanny and Leafeon? That's just plain silly.

Leavanny is currently in E-rank because it's frail as all hell, Stealth Rock weak, and can't even tie with Base 95 speed mons, which means it loses outright to Jynx & co. It's weaker than Sawsbuck, and while 2hkoing Musharna is nice, Musharna will never switch in on a Bug-type to begin with, so you run the risk of getting crippled by Thunder Wave or 2hko'd by Mushy's Psychic by switching in. Also, pumping up Leavanny by saying "it has Shadow Claw access" while deriding Sawsbuck for having low bp moves is very hypocritical, since Sawsbuck does get Faint Attack. I could see an argument for Leavanny in D-rank, but that's giving it a lot of credit that it doesn't deserve in this metagame.

You said yourself that Leafeon's current rank is fine, so I won't argue here since there is no argument.

 

[Punchshroom]

oh ya I was going to drop Stantler but forgot lol, done.

Changes:



I'm fine with Dragonair moving up if people want, it is a Pokemon I have never had success with though. I've seen people use it great but it always does nothing for me. Top C im fine with if people post with support.

Dragonair and Fraxure are sweeping Dragons that go about different routes to achieve their goals. Fraxure Taunts stuff, Dances, hits almost everything crazy hard with Dragon+Fighting coverage then sweeps, but its speed is a bit of an issue when Choice Scarfers are concerned and neither its bulk and survivability are great either.

Dragonair is almost the polar opposite now that I look at it. It doesn't Taunt stuff, but outside of phazing and Leech Seed it doesn't need to: status just bounces right off it, or it can take a nap and either wake up quickly or beef itself up further, granting it great bulk and survivability. Dragonair also has priority which can lessen its revenge killing weakness, though with its greater bulk it can secure enough Dances to outspeed stuff anyway. Dragonair's weaknesses however, are its lower initial power and lack of coverage (Aqua Tail is its next best attack, but Fraxure gets that too), meaning it needs multiple boosts before it can do enough damage to foes, though take solace in knowing that Steels like Metang (without Psych Up or +1 Attack raises) and Probopass can't actually do much back.

In short: Fraxure has Taunt and Low Kick, survives less and does not need to Dance as much; Dragonair has Extreemespeed and Rest(Talk), survives better and needs to dance more. Pick your poison Dragon.

To be honest, I'm not totally certain that Dragonair is truly on par with Fraxure, but it should definitely be at least right behind Fraxure in Top C.