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Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings
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Okay, if you guys can't see that I was listing silly Pokemon for emphasis after I said calm mind Kadabra, Swag Up Zweilous and Delibird in the same post, I don't know what to tell you. I don't appreciate being called 'stupid as fuck' (Annoyer) for a little humorous exaggeration. The point was that anything with substitute or taunt is immune to pain split and Pineco can't do anything to them. Is that incorrect?
But to move on to the B-Rank, I think Torkoal really should be above Low-B. At the least Mid-B, possibly high. When you think about it, Torkoal is just about the best Pokemon we have for rapid spin, mainly facing competition from Wartortle and Armaldo. Its lack of recovery asides from Leftovers is a real bummer, but Torkoal has the gumption to get off at least one spin for you, possibly more. (And it doesn't do too badly against the spinblockers other than Golurk, either!)
But to move on to the B-Rank, I think Torkoal really should be above Low-B. At the least Mid-B, possibly high. When you think about it, Torkoal is just about the best Pokemon we have for rapid spin, mainly facing competition from Wartortle and Armaldo. Its lack of recovery asides from Leftovers is a real bummer, but Torkoal has the gumption to get off at least one spin for you, possibly more. (And it doesn't do too badly against the spinblockers other than Golurk, either!)
I have no experience with SMASH but the main thing i love about Torkoal is Yawn. Wartortle only burns/poisons something and sits there (yes it has yawn but has almost no room for it, I highly suggest trying yawn on Wartortle though) Armaldo struggles against a lot of common threats and isn't much of a threat itself. (Golurk, Missy, who also spinblock) Bulky Koal gives the opponent way less free turns with Yawn which is a godsend for it. (For those who don't know the way i play is with constant pressure on the opponent and sucking away the opponents momentum and for this reason i love yawn <3) For this reason it could be mid-b but i'm fine with low-b too. (Just don't let it sink away in C pls)
I'd like to push for Wartortle to Low B-rank. Wartortle is arguably the best spinner in NU right now. It is terrible in terms of momentum, but with Foresight and Rapid Spin, along with decent physical bulk with Eviolite, it can spin against most, if not all, Ghost-types and the spin support is appreciated by some teams who really need the hazards off (and gets them off more reliably than Torkoal and Armaldo). It also has Scald which allows it to beat the most common Ghost-type in the tier, Golurk, and its physical bulk allows it to tank some hits in a pinch. If anything, it shouldn't be below Torkoal.
Wartortle is C because it really doesn't do much else aside from performing arguably the most successful spin in the tier. The problem is it doesn't have much utility outside of spinning: it can wall most Fire-types and beat them one-on-one, but cannot say the same against most Water-types and Jynx which it does resist but can do very little back, thus meaning Wartortle is set up easily on by dangerous threats such as Jynx, Serperior and Braviary. Compared to Torkoal, who sports defensive utility in Stealth Rock and a method to hit hard in Shell Smash, Wartortle doesn't contribute a whole lot. While its hazard weakness is less pronounced, not having Leftovers can make that a moot point. Severe 4MSS also holds Wartortle back: Scald and Rapid Spin are staples, and then you are left with Foresight for its main niche, Haze to prevent setup (but the setup sweepers can probably still beat Wartortle, especially the aforementioned), Seismic Toss for reliable damage (but like Rapid Spin is also helpless against Ghosts), and Toxic for solid passive damage that wears down threats and deters setup (but is useless against Sub, a popular move to use against Wartortle).
Personally i use Seismic Toss/Rapid Spin/Toxic/Haze on Wartortle for a whole utility mon.
Rapid Spin is obvious, it removes hazards. Seismic Toss does good damage and prevents most pokémon to setup a Substitute, Toxic is a great status move on wartortle since the switch in are often Grass-Type and Ghost-Type and he can toxic them unless they are part poison (i didn't see many Vileplume/Roserade this days and Haunter can be "scared" by Scald) and Haze is the panic button when you let an opponent's sweeper starting setup and to stop BP team hard.
Rapid Spin is obvious, it removes hazards. Seismic Toss does good damage and prevents most pokémon to setup a Substitute, Toxic is a great status move on wartortle since the switch in are often Grass-Type and Ghost-Type and he can toxic them unless they are part poison (i didn't see many Vileplume/Roserade this days and Haunter can be "scared" by Scald) and Haze is the panic button when you let an opponent's sweeper starting setup and to stop BP team hard.
I assume you meant Roselia instead of Roserade, since Roserade is UU
If you're not using a oriented Offensive Wartortle (w/ eviolite + max SpA and Surf + Ice Beam), Foresight is mandatory on Wartortle since lacks to recovery and no leftovers so have an hard time to switch on the battle with hazards up again, is limited. Also, you're doing effort to deal with hazards since i guess than your team is very weak when you're running Wartortle, if you're playing vs offensive: spinblokers + offense pressure deals pretty well with Wartortle while that if you're playing against something defensive Wartortle will be totally deadweight if your opp is using something like Misdreavus or Frillish.
I wanna mention like last move filler on Wartortle: Rain Dande with the ability Rain Dish.
Wartortle really has no room for 'filler', much less his more important moves that stop it from being complete setup bait.
On standard Wartortle the only 100% mandatory are Scald - Rapid Spin - Foresight.
Last move in my opinion is filler between; some more common, more fiable or depending of your team in overall:
-Seismic Toss
-Haze
-Yawn
-Toxic
-Rain Dance
Also, when i'm considering standard Wartortle is only for stall where i can deal with this threats or at least i should.
Seismic does a lot against many offensive threats since low HP / breaks sub, Toxic and Yawn is very useful against mons w/o sub while that Haze helps too against sub mons but really does nothing in terms of damage (seismic) or status (toxic).
I agree with Wartortle for Low B. It performs well where it needs to—on bulkier teams and stall teams that hate lots of Spikes on your side of the field. On more offensive teams, the use of Rapid Spin eschewed in favor of anti-lead-esque Pokemon, such as CB Sawk, Taunt Serperior, and Taunt Samurott and just generally constructing teams that aren't excessively hurt by hazards.
In the end, if you're using Wartortle on teams where it's not going to perform well, it's naturally going to be underwhelming, but when it's used in an advantageous way, it really outshines the other spinners in the tier.
In the end, if you're using Wartortle on teams where it's not going to perform well, it's naturally going to be underwhelming, but when it's used in an advantageous way, it really outshines the other spinners in the tier.
Time for some changes!!!
I also have a few suggestions that I would like to see discussed before we move onto C-rank.
I also have a few suggestions that I would like to see discussed before we move onto C-rank.
Mandibuzz really doesn't make things nicer for Floatzel, he struggles enough competing with Samurott. As a Physical Water-type. I really just don't see a reason to run Floatzel anymore, I never have but its even worse nowadays. What keeps it B-rank?
Ghost-type? Check. Lampent can beat Zard, sometimes sorta check Jynx, is just generally a good offensive Pokemon. TBH I think its better than Simisear. Fun Dual STABs and whatnot. D-rank seems awfully low.
Why would I use Stantler ever?
The "new pokemon" gimmick has been worn off. THere are at least 5 normal-types that are just so much better, potentially move if I thought about it. Stoutland just sucks.
Wow I thought Stoutland was already E, and it definitely deserves it.
The main draw for newer players is the fact that it has 3 fucking awesome abilities. Look closer, however, and you'll notice something. They are all either useless in NU or outclassed by something else. Sand Stream would be awesome... if we had perma sand or anything that commonly set up sand. Stoutland doesn't even get Sandstorm FFS. Intimidate is a cool ability, but so many other good Pokemon get it. Tauros is a much better user of Intimidate, and you can even use Granbull as a better support Pokemon, since it has access to a lot of cool support moves. Scrappy is another awesome ability with a better user of it. Kangaskhan is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and infinitely better than Stoutland. Kanga also has much better moves to abuse Scrappy with. The only viable Stoutland set I could see would be bulky Intimidate, functioning in a similar vein to Granbull. It could offer paralysis support for the team, and (iirc) it has better defense than Granbull, so could be better suited for the role if you so wished.
It's generally bad and outclassed in pretty much every way, so E Rank for me.
The main draw for newer players is the fact that it has 3 fucking awesome abilities. Look closer, however, and you'll notice something. They are all either useless in NU or outclassed by something else. Sand Stream would be awesome... if we had perma sand or anything that commonly set up sand. Stoutland doesn't even get Sandstorm FFS. Intimidate is a cool ability, but so many other good Pokemon get it. Tauros is a much better user of Intimidate, and you can even use Granbull as a better support Pokemon, since it has access to a lot of cool support moves. Scrappy is another awesome ability with a better user of it. Kangaskhan is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and infinitely better than Stoutland. Kanga also has much better moves to abuse Scrappy with. The only viable Stoutland set I could see would be bulky Intimidate, functioning in a similar vein to Granbull. It could offer paralysis support for the team, and (iirc) it has better defense than Granbull, so could be better suited for the role if you so wished.
It's generally bad and outclassed in pretty much every way, so E Rank for me.
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 151-179 (35.69 - 42.31%) -- 28.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I'm not sure what Mandibuzz you've been running into, but physically defensive variants have a 75% chance of getting 2HKO'd even without SR. Even Hydro Pump hurts Mandi enough that you can potentially 2HKO SpD ones on the switch with a decent roll and SR.
If you're daring enough to run Modest or Rash on Floatzel you get:
252+ SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43.02 - 51.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Floatzel hasn't really changed that much, the mistake is just trying to run it as pure physical these days - Hydro Pump for pure power, Ice Beam for coverage, and Crunch to shut down Jynx. Simipour might be slightly better these days since super fast threats aren't as prevalent now with Mandi around, but I'd say Floatzel still has enough oomph for B tier for now.
I'm not sure what Mandibuzz you've been running into, but physically defensive variants have a 75% chance of getting 2HKO'd even without SR. Even Hydro Pump hurts Mandi enough that you can potentially 2HKO SpD ones on the switch with a decent roll and SR.
If you're daring enough to run Modest or Rash on Floatzel you get:
252+ SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43.02 - 51.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Floatzel hasn't really changed that much, the mistake is just trying to run it as pure physical these days - Hydro Pump for pure power, Ice Beam for coverage, and Crunch to shut down Jynx. Simipour might be slightly better these days since super fast threats aren't as prevalent now with Mandi around, but I'd say Floatzel still has enough oomph for B tier for now.
Stoutland to E is mean :( . Just because it is completely outclassed at a role as pretty much any Normal-type physical attacker, that doesn't mean it is atrocious (which is the definition of E-ranker). I would also much rather have both, say, Kangaskhan and Stoutland as opposed to any other E-rankers due to their consistence and solid stats. Just because its stats arent up to par with other Pokemon with the same role, it doesnt mean that they are 'bad' in the sense of failing to be a little bit off a prescence in the metagame. I agree with everything else though :)
On a side note, fuck these horrendous smilies.
On a side note, fuck these horrendous smilies.
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High speed that enables Floatzel to outpace stuff like Serperior, Scolipede, Tauros and Kadabra that Simipour cannot while still packing enough power to threaten them is really good. Then there's the immunity to burns, so Floatzel can nab free switch-ins on Will-o-Wisp, Scald and Lava Plume even with its terrible bulk. Floatzel is also the only pokemon in the tier that can Baton Pass Bulk Ups and even knows Taunt to pull it off easier. Floatzel is not even all that stunted by Mandibuzz's presence: mixed sets can 2HKO Buzz with LO Ice Beam or CB Ice Punch depending on Buzz's spread, whereas CB sets can even Switcheroo to screw her up (not even boosting Foul Play). I believe Floatzel still has a shot for low B due to its surprising versatility.
Interesting nomination for Lampent: it's not the most stellar pokemon in terms of stats, but I'd say it is one of the few viable Trick Room sweepers in NU because of its good coverage in STABs + Energy Ball, while its typing and ability can allow it to check certain pokemon too. I also agree for C.
Interesting nomination for Lampent: it's not the most stellar pokemon in terms of stats, but I'd say it is one of the few viable Trick Room sweepers in NU because of its good coverage in STABs + Energy Ball, while its typing and ability can allow it to check certain pokemon too. I also agree for C.
Razzles wat happened to Bronzor :(
Anyway, Floatzel should stay in B-Rank because of his awesome Speed. Outspeeding stuff like Scolipede and Serperior is no small feat, and while his offenses aren't outstanding, they're still well enough to work with. Hydro / Ice Beam / Crunch / HP Grass hits a lot in this meta, and like Punch said, his immunity to burns helps him get a few free switch-ins every now and then. Granted, I still would use Samurott on most occasions, being bulkier and stronger. But isn't that why Samurott is S-Rank and Floatzel isn't? Floatzel also gets cool moves like Baton Pass and Switcheroo, which can really screw around with the opponent thanks to their neat surprise factor.
Haven't used Lampent much recently, but Ghost / Fire is cool and the ability to check Zard and Jynx is cooler. He also has a decent combination of bulk and power: 60 / 99 / 99 defenses (factoring in Eviolite) aren't bad at all and base 95 Special Attack backed up by great offensive STABs are pretty nice. C-Rank sounds fine.
Stantler sucks, down to E-Rank.
Stoutland... I'm kinda torn on. I think he falls into that "usable-but-no-real-niche" category, as he'd probably be pretty good if there weren't so many other, better Normals in NU. Let's look at a few of his pros for a second: great abilities, decent bulk, satisfactory Attack. Sadly, all of these are overshadowed by something else. Its abilities (Intimidate / Sand Rush / Scrappy) sound cool at first, but Tauros does Intimidate better thanks to higher Speed, Sand Rush just flat-out sucks without permanent sand, and Scrappy is done better by Kangaskhan. Decent bulk is again overshadowed by Kanga, who possesses near equal bulk and is better overall. Finally, its good Attack is equal to that of Tauros, who has stronger moves and Sheer Force to work with. On that note, I think E-Rank is fine for it, but I could just as easily be convinced otherwise.
Anyway, Floatzel should stay in B-Rank because of his awesome Speed. Outspeeding stuff like Scolipede and Serperior is no small feat, and while his offenses aren't outstanding, they're still well enough to work with. Hydro / Ice Beam / Crunch / HP Grass hits a lot in this meta, and like Punch said, his immunity to burns helps him get a few free switch-ins every now and then. Granted, I still would use Samurott on most occasions, being bulkier and stronger. But isn't that why Samurott is S-Rank and Floatzel isn't? Floatzel also gets cool moves like Baton Pass and Switcheroo, which can really screw around with the opponent thanks to their neat surprise factor.
Haven't used Lampent much recently, but Ghost / Fire is cool and the ability to check Zard and Jynx is cooler. He also has a decent combination of bulk and power: 60 / 99 / 99 defenses (factoring in Eviolite) aren't bad at all and base 95 Special Attack backed up by great offensive STABs are pretty nice. C-Rank sounds fine.
Stantler sucks, down to E-Rank.
Stoutland... I'm kinda torn on. I think he falls into that "usable-but-no-real-niche" category, as he'd probably be pretty good if there weren't so many other, better Normals in NU. Let's look at a few of his pros for a second: great abilities, decent bulk, satisfactory Attack. Sadly, all of these are overshadowed by something else. Its abilities (Intimidate / Sand Rush / Scrappy) sound cool at first, but Tauros does Intimidate better thanks to higher Speed, Sand Rush just flat-out sucks without permanent sand, and Scrappy is done better by Kangaskhan. Decent bulk is again overshadowed by Kanga, who possesses near equal bulk and is better overall. Finally, its good Attack is equal to that of Tauros, who has stronger moves and Sheer Force to work with. On that note, I think E-Rank is fine for it, but I could just as easily be convinced otherwise.
Thing with Stoutland is that being outclassed shouldn't be a factor for it to be E rank. It's a question of 'even despite being outclassed, can it still do its job in the metagame?'
Honestly, it's iffy. Stoutland has Crunch and Superpower, so technically it has what it needs to cover its resists, but Superpower's side effect relegates Stoutland to switch in and out a lot. It could run Iron Head instead for Rocks but that leaves it helpless against Steels. But it can't scratch Weezing or Tangela. It has Thunder Wave which can cripple a switch-in, but that can only work so many times.
I think that since Beartic is in D-rank Stoutland could fit there too, except that Beartic doesn't really have any competition as a physical Ice-type.
Honestly, it's iffy. Stoutland has Crunch and Superpower, so technically it has what it needs to cover its resists, but Superpower's side effect relegates Stoutland to switch in and out a lot. It could run Iron Head instead for Rocks but that leaves it helpless against Steels. But it can't scratch Weezing or Tangela. It has Thunder Wave which can cripple a switch-in, but that can only work so many times.
I think that since Beartic is in D-rank Stoutland could fit there too, except that Beartic doesn't really have any competition as a physical Ice-type.
If I had a serperior, scolipede, tauros and a focus sash in tact kadabra, I would not feel threatened by floatzel unless I had low hp for an aqua jet, which samurott, carracosta and basculin can also use. I am a huge fan of floatzel, but I just don't see much reason to use it at all. Yes, Floatzel can use bulk up and baton pass and taunt if you really want to, but there is only 1 move left for coverage ( I know taunt isn't that common, and frankly, not that good of a move on floatzel, but with 2 attacking moves, you have to forgo either a coverage move or aqua jet for proiority). Also, I do not see the big deal in passing bulk ups, when I can pass swords dances with fast enough and bulkier pokes in scolipede and leafeon. Samurott can swords dance and carracosta can shell smash, which are both way more useful than bulk ups to get off sweeps themselves, which I guess floatzel could do with a b.u + 3attacks set, but its more convenient to get +2 attack as opposed to +1. Shell smash> bulk up also gives you respectable speed for carracosta, which is its weakness. Botu samurott, with its very good base SpA, and +2 boost from carracosta, can run a special coverage move (ice beam, hp grass) to defeat certain foes, while floatzel's average 85 base SpA is just average without a little investment. With that investment, you are degrading its speed and attack, which are the 2 biggest selling points, and with SpA investment, you would have to run a negative nature on its already low defenses (lower defense, and you take more from priority. Special defense, take alot more from scald and other weak special attacking moves than expected). If you want to use a special floatzel,
or,
you might as well use simipour, which has better (but not that much better) special attack, while having a boosting move (nasty plot) and more convenient abilites (gluttony salac berry or torrent). And floatzel cannot be burned, which is nice, but burn isnt that common besides a resisted scald ( you probably cannot do much to the poke back if it uses scald, as they are usually a water type), and to pokes that you extremely threaten (misdreavus, torkoal) and would most likely switch out (it is a nice ability though).
I know I was for the most part comparing S rank pokes to a B rank poke, so that might not be that justifiable, however, I do not see much advantage to it over Basculin besides a bulk up set that isn't that great, and higher speed (though they both outspeed the 95 rank). Basculin is just so powerful with a cb adaptability waterfall and priority move, which are most likely the 2 most commonly used moves, and basculin already outspeeds so many pokes that it may seem like floatzel's speed is not as important. As some of the previously mentioned pokes serperior, scolipede, tauros and kadabra all outspeed basculin that do not outspeed floatzel, they are not really afraid of floatzel at high hp's and can do more damage back than floatzel can do to them (except non focus sash kadabra). They both also have comparable bulk, so neither have really much of an advantage. So floatzel has a better attacking opportunity with its coverage moves, swift swim ( which i think its mixed sweeper set is the best for floatzel) and no burn is the advantage over basculin, while basculin does more damage with its stab moves (and can run mold breaker to act as a psuedo lead cb sawk). I do not see that much difference between the two, so if that means basculin and floatzel are low B, or more appropiately, High C, sounds about right.
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 60 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 211-250 (68.95 - 81.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 259-305 (98.85 - 116.41%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tauros: 257-304 (88.01 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO with Rocks
252 Atk Life Orb Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 192-229 (62.74 - 74.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tauros: 196-231 (67.12 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Floatzel Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 230-270 (78.76 - 92.46%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 199-235 (75.95 - 89.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Floatzel Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 242-286 (92.36 - 109.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I fail to see your point. Serperior and Sash Kadabra aren't OHKO'd but they can't switch in at all, and even if you decide to send them in after a Pokemon has fainted, Floatzel has still managed to KO at least one Pokemon and left huge dents in another.
I think you're underestimating Floatzel's speed tier and what it brings by virtue of being able to outspeed Pokemon like Scolipede while still having power. Floatzel still has that element of surprise - Basculins are almost always Banded. Floatzel? Is it running CB with Switcheroo? Bulk Up passing? Mixed? Special? That unpredictability is huge.
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Holy shit that's a long post, yet somehow I feel the need to respond to each point I see fit. commence!
Sash Kadabra aside (nothing bar Cincinno can really revenge kill it), Floatzel does actually have the movepool and stats to hurt things. Scolipede is outright OHKOed by LO Hydro Pump (which most do not see coming at all assuming they'll survive the Waterfall), while Hydro Pump/Low Kick and Ice Beam/Punch do good damage to Tauros and Serperior, both of which threaten a good majority of the other Water-types in the tier which gives Floatzel a plus. I do not know why you listed a weak 40 base power STAB move when Floatzel has the capability to hit them hard. If anything, Floatzel would net surprise KOes due to people underestimating it.
Let me just say that Taunt is pretty crucial for BU Floatzel to be effective. Bulky Waters (Alomo, Wartortle) that wall offensive Floatzel suddenly have the tables turned on them as they can do nothing to stop Floatzel from boosting and sweeping/passing: Alomo can't heal, Wartortle can't Haze, neither can Toxic. Taunt can also stop stuff like Roar or status, and having Taunt on a Baton Passer is a pretty good thing, even if it happens to be very frail (Bulk Up can fix that to an extent).
I know it's not the most awesome thing in the world, Baton Passing Bulk Ups, but it is still something only it can do and it does it decently enough. While the likes of Pede and Leafeon do indeed possess more bulk, this bulk does not carry over to the sweeper they are passing to, which still gives Floatzel an advantage over SD Passing. Note that because of this, BU Floatzel is passer first, sweeper second, because if it isn't Baton Passing those Bulk Ups it faces competition from other boosting Water-types, which I'll get into.
First off, Shell Smash and Bulk Up work differently: Shell Smash provides a great speed and power boost but loses bulk, Bulk Up raises both Attack and Defense at a slower pace. Carracosta gets frailer each time it sets up, while Floatzel gets bulkier each time it sets up, so there is still enough difference to differentiate the two without writing Floatzel off as outclassed, not to mention Floatzel still outspeeds +2 Carra. Also, Floatzel's Hydro Pump hits as hard as Combusken's Fire Blast/Focus Blast, which hits offensive and even some defensive teams adequately enough.
I agree that Floatzel must sacrifice bulk for a mixed set, but I don't get how its speed will be affected by SAtk investment. Floatzel's speed is its biggest selling point, not so much its Attack so that doesn't take precedence, while maximizing speed is a must.
I will agree that Simipour gives Floatzel the greatest competition in performing a mixed set (I say mixed because not only is Simipour indeed superior at pure special sets, it can also match much of Floatzel's movepool for a mixed set). However, the increase in power is not as impactful as the greater speed (notably outspeeding Scolipede, Serperior and +2 Carracosta), so Floatzel can still hold its niche.
Yeah the ability could've been better, but right now a pokemon as frail as Floatzel would appreciate any free switch-in it can get, meaning it can hop into battle just a tad bit easier than other Water-types. Scald users can be Taunted and set up on, Switcheroo'd or simply overwhelmed as the only Scald user with reliable recovery is Alomomola (who happens to be the biggest setup bait for BU Floatzel).
Basculin does pack more power, but Floatzel has more speed and most importantly Switcheroo. The greater speed means Floatzel does not have to Aqua Jet as often as Basculin and spends more of its time using its stronger Water STAB. Switcheroo also allows Floatzel the freedom to switch moves, as well as cripple walls such as Tangela and Alomo that Basculin stands little to no chance against.
Do note that if their HP does fall a little, Floatzel can dispose of them with its arsenal of coverage moves and STAB.
Since Basculin gives physical Floatzel competition, while Simipour gives mixed Floatzel competition, being the mix of two can make for an effective offensive Water-type sweeper. While Floatzel does have notable flaws, I'm still fine with low B: Floatzel's speed and decent coverage allows it to threaten a good majority of pokemon in this fast-paced meta, as even defensive pokemon who can take Floatzel's hits must be wary of Taunt or Switcheroo.
I don't know if anybody already mentioned Mightyena, but I seriously think it should at least be on D-rank (Although I'd even argue for it to go to C-rank). I'm using it right now on a troll team and I was really surprised at its potential.
Mightyena has somewhat-mediocre attack, mediocre speed, and also real crappy bulk. However, the thing which saves it is moxie and sucker punch. After one moxie boost, Mightyena becomes surprisingly strong, and with sucker punch, it's also relatively difficult to revenge kill.
It does get somewhat walled by defensive rock and steel types because of its lack of coverage moves (the elemental fangs are kinda weak, and return only gives some neutral coverage), and checked by bulky fighting types, but after its counters are weakened (I know, easier said than done. But still...) Mightyena can most likely perform an easy sweep.
Hell, I've even made Mightyena sweeps on turn 3~5 (after my lvl 1 Pineco sets up at least SR + 1 spike)...or is that just because of the bad players on the NU ladder? Still, Mightyena is a potent threat, and should really be acknowledged on this viability list.
Mightyena has somewhat-mediocre attack, mediocre speed, and also real crappy bulk. However, the thing which saves it is moxie and sucker punch. After one moxie boost, Mightyena becomes surprisingly strong, and with sucker punch, it's also relatively difficult to revenge kill.
It does get somewhat walled by defensive rock and steel types because of its lack of coverage moves (the elemental fangs are kinda weak, and return only gives some neutral coverage), and checked by bulky fighting types, but after its counters are weakened (I know, easier said than done. But still...) Mightyena can most likely perform an easy sweep.
Hell, I've even made Mightyena sweeps on turn 3~5 (after my lvl 1 Pineco sets up at least SR + 1 spike)...or is that just because of the bad players on the NU ladder? Still, Mightyena is a potent threat, and should really be acknowledged on this viability list.
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I would agree with Mightyena for D-Rank. The lack of pursuit really sucks, but having Moxie alongside priority is really fantastic; Mightyena starts off pretty weak, but it can get incredibly dangerous if you manage to get a kill or two. If the damn thing just got pursuit, I would even consider it C rank or maybe even higher. At the moment, it's just so easy to switch out of and waste its sucker punch, or have something else eat an attack off of Mightyena's crappy base 90 attack. (Stronger moves would help too... offensive Mightyena only hits as hard with Crunch/Sucker Punch as Ninjask does with X-Scissor...)
...BUT. It is a niche, and I definitely see a use for Mightyena in today's metagame, especially with Jynx roaming around. (Although if Mightyena got pursuit...)
Seriously, hyenas pursue things! But enough complaining out of me.
...BUT. It is a niche, and I definitely see a use for Mightyena in today's metagame, especially with Jynx roaming around. (Although if Mightyena got pursuit...)
Seriously, hyenas pursue things! But enough complaining out of me.
Where are you even coming up with 252 SpA ice beam? Ice beam is used on less than 4% of floatzels, while hydro pump is used less than 3%, so it really is irrelevant for the common floatzel. Yeah sure, if there is a full investment in SpA, of course Floatzel and basculin will do heavy damage (basculin only gets surf, but with the adaptability ability makes up for the power while keeping accuracy). But hardly anyone uses max Special attacking floatzel or basculin, and if they do, simipour is better. And Taunt is also used very rarely, so that's not that relevant.
Serperior and Sash Kadabra can't switch in at all to basculin either, as even a waterfall is going to do sgnifiicant damage to Serperior. Basculins run Choice Band 58% and Life orb 20%, while for floatzel it's 43 choice band and 30 life orb. Basculin is more predictable, but floatzel also almost always carries waterfall/crunch/ice punch/ filler move (usually aqua jet, sometimes brick break or switcheroo), so it's more predictable than you think (certainly not using hydro pump or ice beam, both of which Basculin run more often(surf for basculin.) The unpredictability isn't huge.
Again, who runs LO Hydro Pump? Yeah sure, you think even waterfall will get off more damage than basculin as basculin is slower. Too bad only 1/3 people run +speed floatzel, while over 85% scolipede have +speed nature, so you are usually not getting off any hits. And if you run + speed, basculin's power is even more prominent.
Too bad very few people use taunt. That is like saying to watch out for hp grass or toxic on basculin for alomomola. It works to defeat it, doesn't it?
Correct. I an not sure if the calcs posted from Axa were assuming max special attack max attack as those calcs were listed together.
Outspeeding with +speed, correct. More floatzels should run +speed, but then the power suffers too much form experience.
Get what you are saying, but life orb also give basculin freedom to switch moves, while toxic, hp grass or ice beam can be used to give alomomola and tangela competition
Yeah I meant speed, though speed was kinda implied based off what I was talking about
I'd be fine for low B if Basculin also gets the chance :)
Any defensive poke (regirock, lickilicky, miltank, alomomola, mandibuzz, torkoal, armaldo, piloswine, golem, gurdurr to name a few), pokes with status, and faster poke that resist or dont take much from sucker punch (sawk, primeape, kangaskan, Carracosta) all handle mighyena even with +1 attack pretty reliably